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Author Topic: Taproot proposal  (Read 11144 times)
Karartma1
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May 14, 2021, 01:55:17 PM
 #281

Fair point but a miner must be extraordinarily committed to bitcoin and its underlying values to switch from non-signalling to signalling pools. This would be a great sign anyway, any shift in this sense will be like an act of war towards the pool which refuses to signal the upgrade.
In the end it depends if the miners are here for the cash or the vision (because any pool works for getting cash). On the other side, if non-signalling pool see a decrease in their HP, well, they should get in line and update or they can prepare themselves to lose money.
I like it
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nibor
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May 14, 2021, 02:40:51 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #282

Unless Binance, ViaBTC, BTC.com and Huobi all jump on board in next few hours not going to lock-in in the 2nd period either.

BTC.com, ViaBTC and Huobi have all mined one block that is signalling. So if we assume they are in the testing phase and will be onboard in next week all looking good.

Now we just need Binance Pool! (And the testing pools to signal on all bocks).

So looking positive for period 3.... so Mid June....
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May 14, 2021, 10:54:28 PM
Merited by paxmao (3), ETFbitcoin (2), JayJuanGee (1), pooya87 (1)
 #283

Did Taproot decrease lower the fees?

I think bitcoin now still high fee, if Taproot make fee to low is will better and very great to use often
Just as ETFbitcoin explained, it depends.

You can try to make use of the transaction size or weight tools calculator to calculate legacy, nested segwit, native segwit and taproot transaction fee, you can also make use of the public key per input and signature per input to calculate P2SH multisig transactions. If used correctly, you will be able to know the differences in vbytes of each which will determine how transaction fee can be.

I do not have to tell you how legacy address transaction fee will be almost twice that of native segwit addresses and as native segwit transactions have the lowest fee for now, so I will be comparing native segwit transactions with that of taproot.

If you check the transaction vsizes or vbytes of both native segwit and taproot, they are almost the same, but segwit is slightly lower which can be very insignificant. Which means for transaction that require 1 public key, the transaction fee will be almost the same for both native segwit and taproot transactions.

But taproot make use of schnorr signature to make multisig transactions indistinguishable from transactions that require just only 1 public key (normal bitcoin transactions). Multisig transaction fee is higher than normal single wallet transactions, the higher the number of public key required in a transaction, the higher the transaction fee. If segwit transaction is low, but the more the the public key still required for a transaction, the higher the fee, but the fee will be much lower if compared to legacy addresses, but taproot makes the multisig transactions indistinguishable by making use of key aggregation in which the transaction will look like single payment wallet. Which means, increase in the number of public key needed in a transaction still will require the same amount of transaction fee as that of single payment wallet.

Which means taproot reduces the fee of multisig wallets, and making its transaction indistinguishable from other Bitcoin transactions.

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May 15, 2021, 03:44:04 AM
 #284

Are you OK if miners won’t signal for the upgrade?
We aren't facing any kind of deadline after which bitcoin ceases to exist if it hasn't upgraded yet! We are also just in the second week after the release of v. 0.21.1 and I'd rather everyone upgraded naturally specially miners who run modified software not just bitcoin core as is.

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May 15, 2021, 05:02:57 AM
 #285

Did Taproot decrease lower the fees?

I think bitcoin now still high fee, if Taproot make fee to low is will better and very great to use often
Just as ETFbitcoin explained, it depends.

You can try to make use of the transaction size or weight tools calculator to calculate legacy, nested segwit, native segwit and taproot transaction fee, you can also make use of the public key per input and signature per input to calculate P2SH multisig transactions. If used correctly, you will be able to know the differences in vbytes of each which will determine how transaction fee can be.

I do not have to tell you how legacy address transaction fee will be almost twice that of native segwit addresses and as native segwit transactions have the lowest fee for now, so I will be comparing native segwit transactions with that of taproot.

If you check the transaction vsizes or vbytes of both native segwit and taproot, they are almost the same, but segwit is slightly lower which can be very insignificant. Which means for transaction that require 1 public key, the transaction fee will be almost the same for both native segwit and taproot transactions.

But taproot make use of schnorr signature to make multisig transactions indistinguishable from transactions that require just only 1 public key (normal bitcoin transactions). Multisig transaction fee is higher than normal single wallet transactions, the higher the number of public key required in a transaction, the higher the transaction fee. If segwit transaction is low, but the more the the public key still required for a transaction, the higher the fee, but the fee will be much lower if compared to legacy addresses, but taproot makes the multisig transactions indistinguishable by making use of key aggregation in which the transaction will look like single payment wallet. Which means, increase in the number of public key needed in a transaction still will require the same amount of transaction fee as that of single payment wallet.

Which means taproot reduces the fee of multisig wallets, and making its transaction indistinguishable from other Bitcoin transactions.

Thank you
yes, I use  legacy address , that make fee feel high
if use segwit addresses send, when sent will get lower fee right?
and in case if use segwit addresses for receive , that will help sender to paid fee lower too or not?


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May 15, 2021, 08:08:01 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #286

yes, I use  legacy address , that make fee feel high
if use segwit addresses send, when sent will get lower fee right?
and in case if use segwit addresses for receive , that will help sender to paid fee lower too or not?
If using native segwit instead of legacy address for transaction
  • There will be 42% fee reduction for 1 input 2 output
  • There will be 50% fee reduction for 10 input 2 output
  • There can still be up to 52% reduction as the number of input increase

You can read this to know more about how to minimize Bitcoin transaction fee.

Could someone help me to figure out the benefits of taproot for those who don't use multisig transactions? For all I know there will be  no difference for them  in transactions' confidentiality   or in the cost for trx. Only those users who use multisig transactions  will feel the difference in that.  Correct me if I'm wrong with my assumption.
1. Increasing privacy
2. Blockchain data bulid up will be reduced if compared to recent multisig
4. Non-malleability, ECDSA signature malleability was addressed in BIP62
5. MuSig, that can make private smart contracts outside of the blockchain possible
6. Creating way for generalized taproot (G'root) which would be a transition from key aggregation to cross-input, making CoinJoin possible (but not sure or certain this will be allowed).

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Charles-Tim
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May 15, 2021, 07:43:06 PM
 #287

My initial question was focused solely on transaction signed with the single private key.
Never mind me generalizing the importance of taproot. In lowering transaction fee, taproot will focus on key aggregation in a way to favour multisig transactions, making it not distinguishable and with low fee as I explained above. As I calculated its transaction weight with that of segwit, there was only slight difference if comparing it with segwit single payment wallet.

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nibor
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May 16, 2021, 09:10:55 PM
 #288

Now we just need Binance Pool! (And the testing pools to signal on all bocks).

So looking positive for period 3.... so Mid June....

One block from Binance! So we have just enough pools to activate in the next period.

We just need all the pools who have signalled with one or more blocks to be singling 100% of the time (and a bit of luck) and will activate in mid June.

So now likely that Speedy Trial will be a success.
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May 17, 2021, 06:54:17 AM
 #289

Are you OK if miners won’t signal for the upgrade?
We aren't facing any kind of deadline after which bitcoin ceases to exist if it hasn't upgraded yet! We are also just in the second week after the release of v. 0.21.1 and I'd rather everyone upgraded naturally specially miners who run modified software not just bitcoin core as is.


OK, plus the upgrade is not facing fierce resistance from the mining cartel. You’re right, if everyone is cooperative, the network should do a regular Miner Activated Soft Fork, and minimize the risks.

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May 17, 2021, 07:00:45 AM
 #290

Are you OK if miners won’t signal for the upgrade?
We aren't facing any kind of deadline after which bitcoin ceases to exist if it hasn't upgraded yet! We are also just in the second week after the release of v. 0.21.1 and I'd rather everyone upgraded naturally specially miners who run modified software not just bitcoin core as is.

OK, plus the upgrade is not facing fierce resistance from the mining cartel. You’re right, if everyone is cooperative, the network should do a regular Miner Activated Soft Fork, and minimize the risks.

Cartel surely does not seem to be a correct word to describe bitcoin mining.. even though there seemed to have been some common interest (resistance) in the 2017 forkening drama.. but even then the factual play out of those events do not really seem to rise to the level of cartel then, and maybe even less so now.

cartel just seems like a misleading term that exaggerates and hardly describes with very much accuracy.

Of course, we have to deal with ESG, KYC & AML, but each of them are attack vectors on Bitcoin to be avoided or minimized.

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
nibor
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May 17, 2021, 09:43:12 AM
Last edit: May 17, 2021, 12:12:05 PM by nibor
Merited by fillippone (2)
 #291

One block from Binance! So we have just enough pools to activate in the next period.

1st signalling block from BTC.TOP. So now there is a clear margin of over 90% of hash power that has voted in favour.

So mid June looking highly likely assuming all pools who have signalled once start signalling with all their blocks before end of May.


Wonder if that will help Bitcoin regain its dominance - as fallen to 40% recently. As a successful soft fork shows current governance processes are at least functional!
fillippone
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May 17, 2021, 07:56:07 PM
Last edit: May 17, 2021, 08:41:10 PM by fillippone
 #292

Taproot won’t be activated in this period.



We all knew that, but now it is official.
Support is growing amongst miners, and the hash power of pools that signalled activation in at least one block is now well above 90%.
Sound promising.

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May 17, 2021, 09:05:50 PM
 #293

Taproot won’t be activated in this period.



We all knew that, but now it is official.
Support is growing amongst miners, and the hash power of pools that signalled activation in at least one block is now well above 90%.
Sound promising.
Yes bro, they are getting there: looking at the stats, one thing was a bit odd, Binance pool had only one block signaling taproot over 40. There are a few pools which are behaving in a weird way but maybe that is me that I do not know very much about how the whole thing works.
As I write we are above 78.08%: only 12% missing. Not so bad  Wink
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May 18, 2021, 08:33:12 AM
 #294

Yes bro, they are getting there: looking at the stats, one thing was a bit odd, Binance pool had only one block signaling taproot over 40. There are a few pools which are behaving in a weird way but maybe that is me that I do not know very much about how the whole thing works.
As I write we are above 78.08%: only 12% missing. Not so bad  Wink
Binance pool has 2 signals over 44 now, but it is truly somehow, but I remember when mining pools were to show support for Taproot, Binance pool got me annoyed as it does not show support for Taproot earlier, but it later showed support. I think Binance pool will still also show green signal but it can take time as the pool like delaying.

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Wind_FURY
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May 18, 2021, 09:13:28 AM
 #295

Are you OK if miners won’t signal for the upgrade?
We aren't facing any kind of deadline after which bitcoin ceases to exist if it hasn't upgraded yet! We are also just in the second week after the release of v. 0.21.1 and I'd rather everyone upgraded naturally specially miners who run modified software not just bitcoin core as is.

OK, plus the upgrade is not facing fierce resistance from the mining cartel. You’re right, if everyone is cooperative, the network should do a regular Miner Activated Soft Fork, and minimize the risks.

Cartel surely does not seem to be a correct word to describe bitcoin mining.. even though there seemed to have been some common interest (resistance) in the 2017 forkening drama.. but even then the factual play out of those events do not really seem to rise to the level of cartel then, and maybe even less so now.

cartel just seems like a misleading term that exaggerates and hardly describes with very much accuracy.


It does not seem correct, but Jihan Wu and his Chinese friends imposing their will on the network surely did make the community feel that way, and there was the New York Agreement. Am I exaggerating? OK, but the UASF was a victory for the community more than most people would admit.

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May 18, 2021, 09:22:34 AM
 #296

Yes bro, they are getting there: looking at the stats, one thing was a bit odd, Binance pool had only one block signaling taproot over 40. There are a few pools which are behaving in a weird way but maybe that is me that I do not know very much about how the whole thing works.
As I write we are above 78.08%: only 12% missing. Not so bad  Wink

Assumption has been that the pools do a test block - to check it works OK (which we guess this is). Then they slowly roll out to their infrastructure - so next we might see 25% of blocks signalling from them then 50% then 100%. Or however it is they roll it out. But I think they said on Twitter were hoping to be at 100% by end of this week.
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May 18, 2021, 10:44:31 AM
 #297

BTC.TOP signalling too - so now all of the top 12 pools have signalled one or more blocks - so if they all signal full time up at about 95%.
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May 18, 2021, 12:53:59 PM
 #298

Yes bro, they are getting there: looking at the stats, one thing was a bit odd, Binance pool had only one block signaling taproot over 40. There are a few pools which are behaving in a weird way but maybe that is me that I do not know very much about how the whole thing works.
As I write we are above 78.08%: only 12% missing. Not so bad  Wink

Assumption has been that the pools do a test block - to check it works OK (which we guess this is). Then they slowly roll out to their infrastructure - so next we might see 25% of blocks signalling from them then 50% then 100%. Or however it is they roll it out. But I think they said on Twitter were hoping to be at 100% by end of this week.
I did not know that, thank you for the clarification.
After the latest addition by btc.com, unless these miners go nuts taproot can be activated during the next round since 95% is enough to get this upgrade done soon!
cannot wait for it
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May 18, 2021, 03:53:22 PM
Merited by Karartma1 (1)
 #299

BTC.TOP signalling too - so now all of the top 12 pools have signalled one or more blocks - so if they all signal full time up at about 95%.

we can slowly put the hats on Cool


https://twitter.com/BitcoinMemeHub/status/1394473764365217795

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May 18, 2021, 07:39:31 PM
 #300

BTC.TOP signalling too - so now all of the top 12 pools have signalled one or more blocks - so if they all signal full time up at about 95%.

we can slowly put the hats on Cool

https://twitter.com/BitcoinMemeHub/status/1394473764365217795
If my OpSec IRL wouldn't require any mention of my crazy bitcoinery I'd absolutely wear that amazing hat but given the fact that I'm almost paranoid as fuck, I'd never wear it in public.
Great design and good news, taproot can come sooner than I imagined.
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