[need DT] using multiple account, trading merit, self-talking, trading trust

[marlboroza]

You start accusing all great members of this community that they are my alt or shills. I hope @Sud will come to this thread and answer to your accusations.

Accusation is for accounts crypto mania and account wwzsocki as far as I can see. So I noticed someone and without checking account I made assumption that they are from Poland and that you are merit fans, and I asked you is sud your friend too:

Is sud (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=974532) your friend too?

I see intensive posting by at least 3 accounts in that thread. I won't even bother to check account, but let me guess, they are active in Poland local and you are "merit fans"?

So? Is my assumption correct?

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[sud]

@marlboroza

Yeah, and the entire Polish local forum is alt accounts trading merits, right?

No, your assumption is not correct, don't go too far with your accusations please. Yes we are friends from local and other boards, we know each other from other forums/telegram/social. Also I gave most merit to posts I like from users I know (same with receiving), just like you are giving a lot of points to members you know and discuss with. System working as intended. I'm not sure about exact rules, but for all I know you can give all your merit to one user if you wanted to, your choice.

Regarding the topic, I know @wwzsocki enough to know that he wouldn't risk his reputation making alts for a few merits and I don't agree with those accusations - although it may look bad if all you do is hunting for alts/scams/spam. But judging by your posts, looks like nothing can change your mind now, so I'll leave it at that.

[Veleor]

Theymos posted that there is no red paint or other penalties for merits, and anybody can give merits to any post he wants.

Actually, in some cases, members are punished by the forum administration for merit abuse.

Is it your ETH wallet 0x36Aa273ca0f24b587810980e5C478a7A71D1EeBE? (Edited)

[marlboroza]

So I noticed someone and without checking account I made assumption [...]
So? Is my assumption correct?

No, your assumption is not correct

You mean yes, my assumption is correct:

and I asked you is sud your friend too:

Is sud (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=974532) your friend too?

Yes we are friends from local and other boards, we know each other from other forums/telegram/social.

assumption that they are from Poland

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=974532

assumption [...]that you are merit fans

No, we are not merit fans

source: https://bpip.org/

That makes 3 friends in masternode shitcoin thread talking to themselves and meriting each others shitposts. Makes me wonder....
@Veleor what's with that addy?

[Veleor]

<...> and that some account farmers used the same addresses and emails does not mean that two friends or a family can not share them because we have not violated any rules or bounty nor forum, and merits can be given freely and I have awarded equal amounts to other members?

As far as I know, even the closest relatives, generally, have different emails.


However, in the Einc signature campaign in June 2018 Cryptomania had other ETH wallet

If I want to create an alt why so late? When there was no way to rank up fast?

Perhaps you decided to create another account after you've got the red trust for the first time.

<...> I am on Bitcointalk for 5 years using only one account because in my stupidy I have never opened an alt account because I was hoping that something like this never happens to me. <...>

[coinlocket$]

However, in the Einc signature campaign in June 2018 Cryptomania had other ETH wallet

Sadly I'm very busy these weeks and I can't look here, only one thing about Einc, the protocol should be not based on ethereum but on a different blockchain so the address should be different from the usual user address https://einc.io/

[Veleor]

As far as I know, even the closest relatives, generally, have different emails.

I have explained in details email accusation in this thread already. Please be so kind and read the full thread.

Yes, I read your explanation.

So you're telling that Cryptomania was able to register on Bitcointalk with his own email, but he couldn't do the same in the bounty campaign?

[Veleor]

<...> Because some account farmers used the same addresses and emails does not mean that two friends or a family can not share them because we have not violated any rules.

I suppose that you can prove your words only if administrator will check your accounts and say that you and Cryptomania both logged into the forum from different devices and places.

Considering your Reporter Statistics and the number of earned merit, I think there is a chance that one of the administrators will agree to check your profile to help solve this case.

[marlboroza]

Why are you spamming my inbox? Stop doing that.

I don't see this addressed:

He even translated my threads to English (because I told him to do so to get more merits) and we interacted there as a friend, please go and check.

So you told "him" to post something which you have posted and then you merited your own words?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3371857.msg35343659#msg35343659
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5054545.msg47116430#msg47116430
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4694307.msg42370203#msg42370203

You are right added 2FA to my guide, thanks.

Oh!

Just come to my mind that Crypto mania account was registered after merit system was introduced and bounties were at the end with profitability.

Just came to my mind that it makes sense to register account after merit system was introduced to exchange merits to rank up your account:



72 merits to crypto mania, 36 merit back to wwzsocki.

So back to that thread you told your fwiend to translate for merits:

You are right added 2FA to my guide, thanks.

Added as the second point in my guide

You are right is a very good guide and is worth to keep it visible. [...]
I have merited you too because I think is just not right that such helpful guides are not merited at all when other members get 50 merits for one line comments.

I will add this suggestion to my guide because I think is a really important one.

You merited your own guild which you "told your fwiend to translate for merits" and these merits eventually went back to you, and as I can see crypto mania likes to "multi post" things the same way you are doing in this thread.

[marlboroza]

Single, out-of-context posts do not reflect the full truth.

You are right added 2FA to my guide, thanks.

Added as the second point in my guide

I will add this suggestion to my guide because I think is a really important one.

Source is added later, right? What is the whole truth? Everyone can read that "not crypto mania's" guild. Well, that is very interesting merit distribution between accounts crypto mania and wwzsocki.

[Veleor]

Additionally, I have told you multiple times and showed screens that I asked Crypto mania to not send merits to me but after Theymos posted that one can merit any post he wishes I just stopped to think about this.

You're constantly referring to some statement of Theymos. Could you provide a link to his comment?

[Veleor]

When I was searching for the link I found this case. Where the user got his reputation back.
Maybe these case is not exactly the same (there were a lot more accounts involved) but I think that looks like a precedent in my case.

This is a completely different situation.

Members from that topic have restored trust, because there were not proved connections between their accounts, while you have a fair amount of them.

~

What is even better @Crypto mania has registered his account from my IP address when he was by me at home.

He doesn't have Telegram at all and that is why he used my nick, I assume.

Yes, @Crypto Mania is actually wearing my Freebitcoin.io ref link and all others are also mine in his signature.

I had already a few ETH addresses, back then, so I gave one to @CryptoMania because there were, only a few bucks in this address, plus worthless tokens and the purpose for this address was airdrops and promotions.

Yes, I would share an email address with my friend. Of course, I would register one for this purpose.

[DireWolfM14]

I've been watching this thread from the beginning, and to be honest I want to believe wwzsocki.  He's not a spammer, he doesn't come off like an account farmer, he contributes to the forum, and all in all I think he's an asset to the German and Polish boards, and the forum community as a whole.  

As a testament to his character; look how he's handled these allegations: He's remained calm, not made any personal attacks against his accusers, taken all the criticism for what it's worth, answered the questions asked, and hasn't lost his composure.

His explanation even seems plausible.  I could see myself using one of my addresses to help out my brother, or a friend (who I've been trying to introduce to crypto) just the help them get started while they are still learning.  The only trouble with his excuse is that many many bounty spamming shitbirds have exhausted it as an excuse.  But wwzsocki isn't exactly a bounty spamming shitbird, now is he?

I don't see any reason not to believe him, and in the big picture, what has he really done to deserve all these red tags?  Theymos himself suggested that giving red-tags for merit abuse isn't a great use of the trust system (I'm paraphrasing because I'm at work and I don't have time to dig for the exact quote.)  Since I see no legitimate reason not to believe him I am leaning towards giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I would much rather see a guy who is suspected of merit abuse go free rather than see an innocent dude labeled with these tags.  Yeah, I see the amount of merit cycling between the two accounts, and it does seem excessive.  The use of the same address is also suspicious but not incriminating.

Now all of you folks that gave wwzsocki and Crypto Mania neg-tags are welcome to use the trust system anyway you choose.  That's what it's there for.  But please do consider your actions and their ramifications.  wwzsocki has just been kicked off his sig campaign, and I can only assume that it was due to this accusation and the related tags.  

For that reason alone, I hope I'm wrong and you guys are right.  It would really suck if you guys are wrong and he still lost his spot on that campaign.

[marlboroza]

@DireWolf you made your conclusion based on words not facts.

Why are you spamming my inbox? Stop doing that.

I don't see this addressed:

He even translated my threads to English (because I told him to do so to get more merits) and we interacted there as a friend, please go and check.

So you told "him" to post something which you have posted and then you merited your own words?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3371857.msg35343659#msg35343659
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5054545.msg47116430#msg47116430
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4694307.msg42370203#msg42370203

You are right added 2FA to my guide, thanks.

Oh!

Just come to my mind that Crypto mania account was registered after the merit system was introduced and bounties were at the end with profitability.

Just came to my mind that it makes sense to register an account after merit system was introduced to exchange merits to rank up your account:



72 merits to crypto mania, 36 merit back to wwzsocki.

So back to that thread you told your fwiend to translate for merits:

You are right added 2FA to my guide, thanks.

Added as the second point in my guide

You are right is a very good guide and is worth to keep it visible. [...]
I have merited you too because I think is just not right that such helpful guides are not merited at all when other members get 50 merits for one line comments.

I will add this suggestion to my guide because I think is a really important one.

You merited your own guild which you "told your fwiend to translate for merits" and these merits eventually went back to you, and as I can see crypto mania likes to "multi post" things the same way you are doing in this thread.

~

So...

You merited your own guild which you "told your fwiend to translate for merits" and these merits eventually went back to you, and as I can see crypto mania likes to "multi post" things the same way you are doing in this thread.

In the same thread.

Wwzsocki merited posts where crypto mania said it is crypto mania's guild.
Crypto mania merited post where wwzsocki agreed that his own translated guild is great guild

Just try to keep this thread alive because is a useful guide for crypto beginners especially when they start to use exchanges.

If you have your own additional security checks or have any tips/suggestions on how to improve this guide then share and I will be happy to use it.

You are right is a very good guide and is worth to keep it visible. It would be nice if people share their appreciation and comment to bump it further.

I have merited you too because I think is just not right that such helpful guides are not merited at all when other members get 50 merits for one line comments.

This is also a valid suggestion @wwzsocki. Thank you for input. I will add this one too.
~

"Thanks for valid suggestion @wwzsocki for your own guild. I will add this one too to your guild which I translated"
"Here you go, a merit"


Again, when was the source added?

[CryptopreneurBrainboss]

I've been watching this thread from the beginning, and to be honest I want to believe wwzsocki.  

I do too but they (DT member who have tagged him) can't based their judgement just on emotions, they have to work with facts and evidence and that's what they're doing until proven otherwise. My advice to @wwzsocki will be to continuing handling the situation calmly as he's doing and maybe over time he might get pardon and the tags will be removed but for the main time he should continue in his regular activities. Also don't over dramaticalize the situation to attract more tags if not you'll render the account you have worked hard ranking up useless.

I hate to see people that have put in some efforts into contributing to the forum get punished but rules are rules and we have to judge everyone equally.

[Timelord2067]

While I agree with the sentiment of your post...

I have distrusted both accounts, for now. I don't think someone giving merit to their alts or positive trust to their alts deserves to be anywhere near DT1 or DT2.  I'm on the fence on whether or not I should give red trust as well.

Do you mean like how darkstar_ gave his own alt darkstar_alt merits and then both alts gave Lafu Trust?  Or the time LoyceV agonised over giving his own alt merits/trust? (Can't recall which is was - I thought it was an OP, but can't find it - maybe it was a comment).

Then there's your own bowing to peer pressure to remove trust.

You might like to think you're a fence sitter, but you can't even see the fence from where you are standing behind others.

[bones261]

While I agree with the sentiment of your post...
Do you mean like how darkstar_ gave his own alt darkstar_alt merits and then both alts gave Lafu Trust?  Or the time LoyceV agonised over giving his own alt merits/trust? (Can't recall which is was - I thought it was an OP, but can't find it - maybe it was a comment).

Then there's your own bowing to peer pressure to remove trust.

You might like to think you're a fence sitter, but you can't even see the fence from where you are standing behind others.

What are you talking about? Darkstar has not given his alt account merits. It appears that you are confusing including someone in a trust list as giving merit,.

[Timelord2067]

What are you talking about? Darkstar has not given his alt account merits. It appears that you are confusing including someone in a trust list as giving merit,.

Oh dear... here we go again...

Nice deflection by the way... 

[suchmoon]

Do you mean like how darkstar_ gave his own alt darkstar_alt merits and then both alts gave Lafu Trust?

Darkstar_ didn't give merits to his alt. The Lafu situation was harmless and no longer relevant. You really shouldn't say "to give trust" when you mean "to include [in trust list]", it's unnecessarily confusing.

[DireWolfM14]

@DireWolf you made your conclusion based on words not facts.

Yes, you are right, but that doesn't mean I haven't considered the facts.  I see a lot of facts that add up to a lot of circumstantial evidence.  It's all very suspicious.  Even if wwzsocki is telling the truth and crypto mania is his friend, there has obviously been an excessive amount of merit cycled between the two accounts.  That's an issue, but is it a red trust issue?  Once again I'll bring up that theymos isn't concerned about merit abuse, because of the decaying nature of sMerit.  There's only so much those two accounts can cycle, and at some point it will be completely depleted.

It's also worth considering the accounts and their behavior; are they beneficial to the forum?  I think the answer is yes, and you are entitled to disagree.  This shouldn't be something that influences whether they get red trust or not, but it does add to the circumstantial evidence supporting wwzsocki's claim.  His pattern of behavior does suggest that he may be telling the truth.

For the next point I want to make make I'll bring the famous tag line from the OJ Simpson trial: "If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit."  Does the evidence presented prove, beyond a reasonable doubt that wwzsocki and Crypto Mania are alts?  You may argue that this is a bad example (because we all know OJ is guilty,) I would argue that it's the best example.  The systems are only as good as the people implementing them, and people are flawed.  So, the system is bound to be flawed.  But if the system's flaws are biased towards the presumption of innocence, then they are flawed in the right direction, in my opinion.  

The trust system is decentralized, meaning you are welcome to tag the two account for any reason you choose.  I'm not asking any one to remove their tags, just consider your justification for doing so carefully.

...rules are rules and we have to judge everyone equally.

Please tell me which rules are you talking about?

That's thing, there are no official rules for trading merit with your alts (or friends,) yet there are a few activities that don't violate the rules but are sure to earn you a red-tag.  That's the issue with a decentralized trust system, it's bound to have flaws.  As a community we should work together to mitigate those flaws.

I do too but they (DT member who have tagged him) can't based their judgement just on emotions, they have to work with facts and evidence and that's what they're doing until proven otherwise.

I beg to differ.  I think I've made my argument base on reason.  I have never crossed paths with wwzsocki or Crypto Mania, and I have no emotional attachment to either.  But I do have a vested interest in a fair and unbiased trust system.