Liberated: LoyceV's Legendary Little Lightning Loans Lowered

[LoyceV]

If you can post an invoice in the next 15 minutes, I will pay you back tonight.

Code:

lightning:lnbc101u1pw0v9k6pp5023tmcssc39mnktdnnjupnpjz66rkdv72nc89649uxgjaep33q0qdqdwpshjgrzv93kkxqr4rqrzjqwryaup9lh50kkranzgcdnn2fgvx390wgj5jd07rwr3vxeje0glc7zxwl5qq04qqqqqqqqlgqqqqqeqqjqrl4dtaacqnwg8htva6d7xptsusshjx6pvkdzmdsd3fqq5am7f0vhvqwur4hdd2dw350nzk9xd2wdvf4t3x8hmyg9mlk7q29d5c8fmjgp96nnhu

[1714183994]

1714183994

[1714183994]

1714183994

[1714183994]

1714183994

[1714183994]

1714183994

[1714183994]

1714183994

[1714183994]

1714183994

[PrimeNumber7]

If you can post an invoice in the next 15 minutes, I will pay you back tonight.

Code:

lightning:lnbc101u1pw0v9k6pp5023tmcssc39mnktdnnjupnpjz66rkdv72nc89649uxgjaep33q0qdqdwpshjgrzv93kkxqr4rqrzjqwryaup9lh50kkranzgcdnn2fgvx390wgj5jd07rwr3vxeje0glc7zxwl5qq04qqqqqqqqlgqqqqqeqqjqrl4dtaacqnwg8htva6d7xptsusshjx6pvkdzmdsd3fqq5am7f0vhvqwur4hdd2dw350nzk9xd2wdvf4t3x8hmyg9mlk7q29d5c8fmjgp96nnhu

Sent. Please confirm at your convenience.

It was a pleasure. This gave me the opportunity to learn about the economics behind the current LN ecosystem.

[LoyceV]

Sent. Please confirm at your convenience.

Although I'm a bit slow at posting here, the transaction was received at Lightning speed

It was a pleasure. This gave me the opportunity to learn about the economics behind the current LN ecosystem.

Glad to hear that

While trying to open a new channel, I found out many nodes require at least 0.02 BTC per channel, but I'm not comfortable yet depositing $150 to an experimental network. It took me a while to find another one that accepts a lower amount. It's not confirmed yet, so I can't test it yet.
Until now, anything up to 3 satoshi had 0 fee, but anything above that had at least 1 satoshi fee. I'd like to see if 2 nodes lead to lower fees. My expectation is that payments take the cheapest possible route.

After opening a LN channel, you need to make a payment first to get inbound capacity. I bought 1000 Doge at https://www.coinplaza.it/ (ANN thread), but you can also exchange Bitcoin Lightning for Bitcoin.

[PrimeNumber7]

After opening a LN channel, you need to make a payment first to get inbound capacity

There appear to be several services that will open a channel to your node to give you inbound liquidity in exchange for a fee that is a percentage of the size of the channel plus what amounts to the opening and closing TX fee. The percentage these services charge depends on how long you want the channel to be ‘guaranteed’ to stay open, but this is really just their word and is not an actual guarantee. I found some of these services on 1ML, so I know they have at least many open Channels, or someone who does is willing to display their name. I haven’t figured out a way to gauge any of their reputation, so I cannot estimate the likelihood they will follow through on actually opening a channel that gives liquidity.

I had found one that claimed to open a channel of the same size if you have an open outbound channel to them, for only the cost of the tx fees, but the above still applies.

[LoyceV]

On a slightly related note:

BlueWallet

On bluewallet.io they say: "You control your private keys", but on bluewallet.io/lightning they say "you can use custodial Lightning wallets (or choose to run your own node)".

If I understand correctly, that means your Lightning funds are entirely at their mercy if they decide to shut down their service.

[PrimeNumber7]

On a slightly related note:

BlueWallet

On bluewallet.io they say: "You control your private keys", but on bluewallet.io/lightning they say "you can use custodial Lightning wallets (or choose to run your own node)".

If I understand correctly, that means your Lightning funds are entirely at their mercy if they decide to shut down their service.

Correct. I was unable to find a non-custodial mobile wallet that doesn’t require a connection to a local LN wallet/node to operate.

The plan was to setup a local wallet on my laptop that I would transfer LN coin from to my phone when I would go out planning on spending coin via LN and transfer any excess coin back when I return home. This would reduce counter-party risk to only pocket money and only for short periods at a time, and could stop using their services if I noticed problems. As noted above, inbound LN liquidity is not free and this probably isn’t a good solution based on the current LN economy. I don’t have access to a computer I can have on 24/7, when I am away from home I can use for personal use. I could spin up a cheap VPS but this would reduce the cost benefits of using LN.

[LoyceV]

I was unable to find a non-custodial mobile wallet that doesn’t require a connection to a local LN wallet/node to operate.

Eclair connects to a node that you choose. I started with one of the more or less default nodes (ACINQ NODE).
A custodial wallet isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially if you only use it for small payments and don't risk too much on it. It might actually be an easier way to start with LN.

I could spin up a cheap VPS but this would reduce the cost benefits of using LN.

I'm still postponing (where's the time?) to get a VPS for loyce.club's data. Once I have one, adding a LN node would be a nice project too.
For now I'm using other nodes (kinda what I do when I use Electrum).

[PrimeNumber7]

I was unable to find a non-custodial mobile wallet that doesn’t require a connection to a local LN wallet/node to operate.

Eclair connects to a node that you choose. I started with one of the more or less default nodes (ACINQ NODE).
A custodial wallet isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially if you only use it for small payments and don't risk too much on it. It might actually be an easier way to start with LN.

I don't have an android device, so Eclair is not an option for me.

A custodial LN wallet does have some real world advantages, such as giving the end user free inbound liquidity, and allowing the end user to only send one transaction to the custodian instead of having to open many channels with many nodes. If the custodian is well connected in the LN, the end user may also have less failed transactions.

The business model of custodians could be to use coin received by their users to open channels with liquidity they charge for. It is not clear this is the case with BlueWallet.

Presently, it is very difficult to judge if any custodial wallet is a scam. If any particular custodial wallet service gets very popular, they may become the target of hackers, and their operational model will require them to keep the majority of coin in a hot wallet type environment.

[LoyceV]

I don't have an android device, so Eclair is not an option for me.

We're more or less "collecting" Android devices, so I can now literally use one device for one wallet, I'm still paranoid for installing new wallets, so I like to keep them strictly separated.

A custodial LN wallet does have some real world advantages, such as giving the end user free inbound liquidity, and allowing the end user to only send one transaction to the custodian instead of having to open many channels with many nodes. If the custodian is well connected in the LN, the end user may also have less failed transactions.

I'd like to see established trusted sites join this business. Exchanges for instance, although KYC isn't ideal, or maybe casinos.

The business model of custodians could be to use coin received by their users to open channels with liquidity they charge for.

I'd be okay paying a bit for that, or it could be used to lower their transaction fees, while getting more users for their business.

I deleted a Newbie's post. I'm not against a Newbie joining, but it has to be a real user who has an actual interest in LN. Not the generic default Newbie who has no idea what LN is, posts a Bitcoin address to asks for 0.1 mBTC here, and asks for 0.2 BTC in another topic. These I delete

[thehun]

Very interested in trying this out. After some fiddling I think I managed to open an inbound channel for payments.

Amount: 0.1 mBTC (0.0001 BTC, or 10,000 satoshi).
Duration: one week.
Interest: 1% (0.001 mBTC (=0.000001 BTC or 100 satoshi)).

lightning:lnbc1pw0n8j6pp5790h8zncfhxjperah0tn8l07czrfuughgrfaw2n9fkywr8muzjlsdqqxqr4rqrzj qwryaup9lh50kkranzgcdnn2fgvx390wgj5jd07rwr3vxeje0glc7zxhe5qq8mgqqqqqqqlgqqqqqeq qjq5wharrjwufrhfphs87rpwf7l36hk4s786hr6fwdgaterye0lzz3pu6vz0pqv9jsalc3yxdw3cxgr rt49y870t7pz7x8dftf0nucmpngpwz2y9t


Cheers  

[LoyceV]

lightning:lnbc1pw0n8j6pp5790h8zncfhxjperah0tn8l07czrfuughgrfaw2n9fkywr8muzjlsdqqxqr4rqrzj qwryaup9lh50kkranzgcdnn2fgvx390wgj5jd07rwr3vxeje0glc7zxhe5qq8mgqqqqqqqlgqqqqqeq qjq5wharrjwufrhfphs87rpwf7l36hk4s786hr6fwdgaterye0lzz3pu6vz0pqv9jsalc3yxdw3cxgr rt49y870t7pz7x8dftf0nucmpngpwz2y9t

Payment failed: "Channel is currently disabled, remote failure".

[thehun]

lightning:lnbc1pw0n8j6pp5790h8zncfhxjperah0tn8l07czrfuughgrfaw2n9fkywr8muzjlsdqqxqr4rqrzj qwryaup9lh50kkranzgcdnn2fgvx390wgj5jd07rwr3vxeje0glc7zxhe5qq8mgqqqqqqqlgqqqqqeq qjq5wharrjwufrhfphs87rpwf7l36hk4s786hr6fwdgaterye0lzz3pu6vz0pqv9jsalc3yxdw3cxgr rt49y870t7pz7x8dftf0nucmpngpwz2y9t

Payment failed: "Channel is currently disabled, remote failure".

Hmm that's really weird, I don't see errors in my client. Maybe my phone went offline at some point?

[LoyceV]

Hmm that's really weird, I don't see errors in my client. Maybe my phone went offline at some point?

It was set to expire in 6 hours, so that shouldn't be the problem. Let's try again with a new payment request?

[thehun]

Hmm that's really weird, I don't see errors in my client. Maybe my phone went offline at some point?

It was set to expire in 6 hours, so that shouldn't be the problem. Let's try again with a new payment request?

Let's see if this one works

lightning:lnbc1pw0cz40pp544wcdru5s9ks88jp6n37schgsl5ptzvy3ws6qu6gzq545cr7kqzsdqqxqr4rqrzj qwryaup9lh50kkranzgcdnn2fgvx390wgj5jd07rwr3vxeje0glc7zxhe5qq8mgqqqqqqqlgqqqqqeq qjq8mu44hgczzukj8rawa4vtmrjzmg2mmeju3s8x9mqv6uzka26ny3p59jexhr8evus7fsrmjl8q8ug 2lteazftkxynm4ue8xd8q94pfwgqjfn4va

[LoyceV]

lightning:lnbc1pw0cz40pp544wcdru5s9ks88jp6n37schgsl5ptzvy3ws6qu6gzq545cr7kqzsdqqxqr4rqrzj qwryaup9lh50kkranzgcdnn2fgvx390wgj5jd07rwr3vxeje0glc7zxhe5qq8mgqqqqqqqlgqqqqqeq qjq8mu44hgczzukj8rawa4vtmrjzmg2mmeju3s8x9mqv6uzka26ny3p59jexhr8evus7fsrmjl8q8ug 2lteazftkxynm4ue8xd8q94pfwgqjfn4va

Lightning Loan sent! The spaces are annoying on mobile, so I made a QR-code on my PC, then scanned from Eclair. Your request didn't ask for an amount, I sent 0.1 mBTC.
Fee paid: 2 sat!

[thehun]

lightning:lnbc1pw0cz40pp544wcdru5s9ks88jp6n37schgsl5ptzvy3ws6qu6gzq545cr7kqzsdqqxqr4rqrzj qwryaup9lh50kkranzgcdnn2fgvx390wgj5jd07rwr3vxeje0glc7zxhe5qq8mgqqqqqqqlgqqqqqeq qjq8mu44hgczzukj8rawa4vtmrjzmg2mmeju3s8x9mqv6uzka26ny3p59jexhr8evus7fsrmjl8q8ug 2lteazftkxynm4ue8xd8q94pfwgqjfn4va

Lightning Loan sent! The spaces are annoying on mobile, so I made a QR-code on my PC, then scanned from Eclair. Your request didn't ask for an amount, I sent 0.1 mBTC.
Fee paid: 2 sat!

Received! 

I didn't realise I could set an amount, I just saw that setting now.

Let me know how I can repay 

[Timelord2067]

What version of BitCoin is needed for this to work? And, sorry to ask, can you give a brief walk through commands to use?

[LoyceV]

Let me know how I can repay

When you're ready, I'll post a payment request. This expires in 6 hours, so I can't plan a week ahead.

What version of BitCoin is needed for this to work?

You need a Lightning wallet. See for instance Top 11 Wallets for the Bitcoin Lightning Network (disclaimer: I've only tested Eclair (and Tippin) by myself, be careful with untrusted software on your main devices).

[thehun]

When you're ready, I'll post a payment request. This expires in 6 hours, so I can't plan a week ahead.

I'm ready 

[LoyceV]

I'm ready  

Please pay 0.101 mBTC here:

Code:

lightning:lnbc101u1pw0u9skpp5lj2yggxc5jfy7hsr428ck2tutem8ec5nu3daqa20nn2ynrxv22mqdqdwpshjgrzv93kkxqr4rqrzjqwryaup9lh50kkranzgcdnn2fgvx390wgj5jd07rwr3vxeje0glc7zxwl5qq04qqqqqqqqlgqqqqqeqqjq0nqj27c6434zsat2py74a3atfle4vrdtvsxt484f2sv4dde4l7ukkphlnmygu3l3mdwsd72r20399e8vp279q769l2lkqvmhn9n595qq0vk5yq