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Author Topic: Locked: LoyceV's Legendary Little Lightning Loans  (Read 2691 times)
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bitmover
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June 21, 2019, 02:44:10 PM
 #61

I am using Éclair wallet.
Do I need to send some funds to the wallet so I  open a channel?
Yes. A channel needs at least 1 mBTC (some nodes require more), and to do that, you'll need to fund the Eclair wallet first (on-chain).

Hello Loycev

I have opened a channel (still waiting for confirmation of the transaction

This is the channel id.
I found it very expensive to open the channel. Unless we are planning to make a lot of transitions, it is more expensive to use lightning network, right?

68a147394c28312b887c590b59523ed4886a0f9f14d2b7a27e76f98e7cf64c1f

In the next hours (when confirmed) I will make the payment request for 0.1mBTC

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LoyceV
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June 21, 2019, 03:11:13 PM
 #62

I found it very expensive to open the channel. Unless we are planning to make a lot of transitions, it is more expensive to use lightning network, right?
It's up to you what fee to choose, but as I found out the hard way: if it doesn't confirm within 24 hours, the channel gets closed at a much higher fee. That's the part I can't control (I think the node decides), and fees for opening and closing channels are indeed the main worry I have for large scale LN adoption.
As long as the node keeps running, I don't really see a reason to close the channel.

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June 21, 2019, 04:14:37 PM
Last edit: June 21, 2019, 04:34:20 PM by bitmover
 #63

if it doesn't confirm within 24 hours, the channel gets closed at a much higher fee.
I think it will happen to me... i used 4 sat/byte . I thought "I am not in a hurry, i am not transferring to anyone"

Edit: But, I will be "charged" for closing the channel? How am I going to be charged, if I am the only one with the private key? Theoretically I would have to go to the wallet and pay this fee for closing the channel, right?
Or is Eclair getting my keys and closing channels after 24h? This is not clear to me.


Edit2: Just saw that to open the channel I needed to transfer 0.001 to another wallet.... so they have the keys... That is basically a loan.
I didn´t knew about it. I understood now what people were saying when they said nodes were becoming banks.

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June 21, 2019, 04:37:24 PM
Last edit: June 21, 2019, 04:47:36 PM by LoyceV
 #64

if it doesn't confirm within 24 hours, the channel gets closed at a much higher fee.
I think it will happen to me... i used 4 sat/byte . I thought "I am not in a hurry, i am not transferring to anyone"
If there was achange output, you can use CPFP on it.

Quote
Edit: But, I will be "charged" for closing the channel? How am I going to be charged, if I am the only one with the private key? Theoretically I would have to go to the wallet and pay this fee for closing the channel, right?
Or is Eclair getting my keys and closing channels after 24h? This is not clear to me.


Edit2: Just saw that to open the channel I needed to transfer 0.001 to another wallet.... so they have the keys... That is basically a loan.
I admit I don't know all the details of LN under the hood, but from what I understand you've send the funds to an address that both you and the node have some control over. I think your wallet gave the node a signed transaction which can be used to close the channel. So the node can decide to close the channel, thereby initiating another transfer (with a predefined lock time) to close the channel. When that happens because it's unconfirmed, the node does CPFP.
More of my experience with it here.

Quote
I didn´t knew about it. I understood now what people were saying when they said nodes were becoming banks.
I don't think that's entirely correct. The "banks" problem is more when nodes become very big and LN becomes very centralized, but even then anyone can still create their own node.

99Bitcoins.com can explain it much better than I can:
if I want to transact with my friend, we open an “off-chain” payment channel between us.
~snip~
Simply put, my friend and I write down how much each one owes the other without ever exchanging the money until we choose to settle the bill.
~snip~
When you open a payment channel, each of you deposits a certain amount of money that acts as a security deposit.
(further reading)

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June 22, 2019, 08:27:00 AM
 #65

Got confirmed  @LoyceV. 3 sat/byte got confirmed in about 17hours lol

I made the payment request of 0.1 mbtc
Let's hurry we have few hours left Smiley

lightning:lnbc100u1pwsmedmpp5syshv54ve523dncw498058hwjcul5vf37dcjvcqe0anw560504lsdq0dpjhj grvdaukxegxqr4rqrzjqwryaup9lh50kkranzgcdnn2fgvx390wgj5jd07rwr3vxeje0glc7z8qcuqq vjgqqqqqqqlgqqqqqeqqjqju8560ztv9lwdndckytvjvnkvjadyzh72y975m8etjhr0gy8cgw4nded6 zvht8syv5355vpga4zw7hdx32c082x2mcenhzqcrlvna5cqj4qt0e

I will try to pay back in the same channel.

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June 22, 2019, 09:00:22 AM
 #66

lightning:lnbc100u1pwsmedmpp5syshv54ve523dncw498058hwjcul5vf37dcjvcqe0anw560504lsdq0dpjhj grvdaukxegxqr4rqrzjqwryaup9lh50kkranzgcdnn2fgvx390wgj5jd07rwr3vxeje0glc7z8qcuqq vjgqqqqqqqlgqqqqqeqqjqju8560ztv9lwdndckytvjvnkvjadyzh72y975m8etjhr0gy8cgw4nded6 zvht8syv5355vpga4zw7hdx32c082x2mcenhzqcrlvna5cqj4qt0e
Payment failed! "channel is currently disabled", RemoteFailure.
Does that mean your wallet is offline?

It worked 5 minutes later. Loan funded Cheesy
Fee paid: 2 satoshi.

Quote
I will try to pay back in the same channel.
I'm not sure if you can choose the channel by yourself, but you'll need a payment request from me before you can pay (they're working on an update that allows payments without sending a request first).

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June 22, 2019, 09:06:35 AM
Last edit: June 22, 2019, 09:36:44 AM by bitmover
 #67

You're fast! I made a new request and you just paid before I could paste the lightning request here. How? Lol

I will pay your back as soon as you post your request

Edit:
I could not find anything related to your payment, such as fees or from which address you paid. This is interesting for privacy, as companies cannot track customers even if they are using the same address in multiple lightning payments. I cannot even pay you back because I don't see where it came from

I cannot track you in this offchain database. Interesting. Sadly I cannot see the fees...

Waiting for your request LoyceV.

For me, so far I paid 0.4mbtc in fees for opening the channel and sending out the funds to eclair,, even using very low fees.

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June 22, 2019, 11:18:53 AM
 #68

I will pay your back as soon as you post your request
Here it is:
Code:
lnbc101u1pwsuz6fpp5um0962czsdaygfspmevz3ca3qkf6fn2q0xssdyz70wayg40a89pqdqdwpshjgrzv93kkxqr4rqrzjqwryaup9lh50kkranzgcdnn2fgvx390wgj5jd07rwr3vxeje0glc7zxwl5qq04qqqqqqqqlgqqqqqeqqjqq2dcr4xw62cvlucqzxmhe3v7anhe23fz0p2gl5zdavfr6wpprzzxct53dmnu4vcfzfy047kkfw32mpl399tw28xqfv4um069zk6awxgpgkl8qc

Quote
I could not find anything related to your payment, such as fees or from which address you paid. This is interesting for privacy, as companies cannot track customers even if they are using the same address in multiple lightning payments. I cannot even pay you back because I don't see where it came from
I don't think there is such a thing as "using the same address twice", if you try to pay the same request again, it says it's already paid.
I'm not sure how much nodes can see from transactions that they don't process. I can imagine this is very good for mass adoption: no node will have to handle millions of transactions, all nodes will only handle the transactions that pass through that node.

Quote
Sadly I cannot see the fees...
2 sat Cheesy

Quote
For me, so far I paid 0.4mbtc in fees for opening the channel and sending out the funds to eclair,, even using very low fees.
How do you get to that amount? Is that the amount "reserved" in the channel that you can't send? I've noticed the amount I can send sometimes goes up and down a bit.

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June 22, 2019, 11:45:33 AM
 #69

Here it is:
Code:
lnbc101u1pwsuz6fpp5um0962czsdaygfspmevz3ca3qkf6fn2q0xssdyz70wayg40a89pqdqdwpshjgrzv93kkxqr4rqrzjqwryaup9lh50kkranzgcdnn2fgvx390wgj5jd07rwr3vxeje0glc7zxwl5qq04qqqqqqqqlgqqqqqeqqjqq2dcr4xw62cvlucqzxmhe3v7anhe23fz0p2gl5zdavfr6wpprzzxct53dmnu4vcfzfy047kkfw32mpl399tw28xqfv4um069zk6awxgpgkl8qc
Paid. There is no payment receipt or whatsoever.

Same 2 sat fee.

No doubt it is good for Mass adoption. Nobody knows where he money comes from or where it goes.
I will close the channel in a few hours, in case someone else wants to use it just post here something...

When the channel is closed I will know my final balance and how much that test cost in fees.

Thanks LoyceV, and congrats on your initiative.

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June 22, 2019, 11:52:05 AM
 #70

Paid. There is no payment receipt or whatsoever.
Received Smiley
I'm still not entirely sure how payments are registered and how you can prove a request was paid. There are explorers like 1ML - Lightning Network Search and Analysis Engine, but I'm haven't searched for transactions yet. I kinda expect it only shows nodes.

Quote
When the channel is closed I will know my final balance and how much that test cost in fees.
I'm curious to see that too, and I really dislike that I can't set a custom fee.

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June 22, 2019, 05:55:53 PM
 #71

I'm still not entirely sure how payments are registered and how you can prove a request was paid.

Payment hash proves that transaction has been paid. You can see it in Eclair Mobile in transaction details.

There are explorers like 1ML - Lightning Network Search and Analysis Engine, but I'm haven't searched for transactions yet. I kinda expect it only shows nodes.

One of the benefits of using the Lightning Network is that no one can see your transactions. Nodes which route payments don't know which node initialized the payment and if the next node is the final one. Also, such explorers don't show private channels (those are incapable of routing payments, for example, mobile wallets use them).

I'm curious to see that too, and I really dislike that I can't set a custom fee.

That's a software limitation. Other wallets allow setting custom fee.

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June 22, 2019, 09:15:56 PM
 #72

I'm still not entirely sure how payments are registered and how you can prove a request was paid.

Payment hash proves that transaction has been paid. You can see it in Eclair Mobile in transaction details.
I saw that too. But I couldn't find anywhere to paste it so I could verify (see fees, receipt or whatever).

Quote
When the channel is closed I will know my final balance and how much that test cost in fees.
I'm curious to see that too, and I really dislike that I can't set a custom fee.

I tried to close the channel prematurely (now) and I was warned that I would pay higher fees.
I believe that in the way lightning channels are designed channels should only be closed prematurely if there is a reason or a misunderstanding between the parts. I read something like this in mastering bitcoin but I am lazy now to check it

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June 28, 2019, 03:37:06 PM
 #73

Bump! 10,000,000 milli-satoshis are waiting for a 7 day loan Cheesy

I'm just transferring some funds over - hopefully they won't take too long to arrive  Roll Eyes

Timelord2067's Timely Test and Main-neT LighTning Loans to a "T"
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5184177.0;dt
main-net BTC 0.0001 loans, test-net BTC 0.001 loans 1% seven days max.
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June 28, 2019, 11:17:47 PM
 #74

Just a small update.

I have closed all channels (2, one created by and the other probably created by loycev).  I received a few Satoshis from those channels, but in the end this test was expensive. I don't know exactly why because the  fees aren't very transparent.

I send 0.0011 BTC to eclair, and my final balance now is 0.000652
Open and closing channels are transactions... I sent to eclair with 3 sat/byte and create a channel with 13 sat/byte. Even with those relatively low w fees , this was quite expensive.

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June 29, 2019, 12:22:53 AM
 #75

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind testing this out for you...

Bump! 10,000,000 milli-satoshis are waiting for a 7 day loan Cheesy

I'm just transferring some funds over - hopefully they won't take too long to arrive  Roll Eyes

I've already lost 66¢ by opening a channel (where my funds went I have no idea), so this is indeed a steep learning curve.

Code:
lnbc1pw3d2a3pp525tlssfzmtsaqqg26mampzz5k99snkkml8tjmqr5w268tu7vpnrsdq5235k6etvdaexgv3sxcmsxqr4rqtqadr90fkwu8wt7lfjw3yy68mufqyzkr4zs5sce8kdnscd78vd05auh7wvmre7nzuf723es0xfscxzqe77jjkz840k5h7lkwwddychqp5rt0uw

Open and closing channels are transactions... I sent to eclair with 3 sat/byte and create a channel with 13 sat/byte. Even with those relatively low w fees , this was quite expensive.

Opening a channel cost me 534 sats according to the TX or 5,340 sats on the eclair program, of which 0.00004060 BTC went to bc1qu6y02ypekdze9wrjhyma9eqkufnznzeu2x8et62umqe345uc06mqj3n3a4

Timelord2067's Timely Test and Main-neT LighTning Loans to a "T"
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5184177.0;dt
main-net BTC 0.0001 loans, test-net BTC 0.001 loans 1% seven days max.
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June 29, 2019, 05:59:03 AM
 #76

I send 0.0011 BTC to eclair, and my final balance now is 0.000652
Open and closing channels are transactions... I sent to eclair with 3 sat/byte and create a channel with 13 sat/byte. Even with those relatively low w fees , this was quite expensive.
What was the fee for closing the channel? I assume that's the one that took a much larger share than when you opened it.

Quote
the  fees aren't very transparent
I think the fees have to be high, to prevent a double spend attack with an older state if it doesn't confirm fast enough. I hope it will at least become more transparant in the future.



I've already lost 66¢ by opening a channel (where my funds went I have no idea)
Miners?

Quote
Code:
lnbc1pw3d2a3pp525tlssfzmtsaqqg26mampzz5k99snkkml8tjmqr5w268tu7vpnrsdq5235k6etvdaexgv3sxcmsxqr4rqtqadr90fkwu8wt7lfjw3yy68mufqyzkr4zs5sce8kdnscd78vd05auh7wvmre7nzuf723es0xfscxzqe77jjkz840k5h7lkwwddychqp5rt0uw
I get "PAYMENT FAILED!" in Eclair: Route not found. Type: Local.

Quote
Opening a channel cost me 534 sats according to the TX or 5,340 sats on the eclair program, of which 0.00004060 BTC went to bc1qu6y02ypekdze9wrjhyma9eqkufnznzeu2x8et62umqe345uc06mqj3n3a4
The fee was 5340 sat (Blockchain.com doesn't show the 8th digit for some reason). The remaining 4060 sat is change. That happened to me too when I opened the channel: despite trying to send the maximum amount, it created a change. I think this was because I adjusted the fee.
It would have been much better if Eclair would open a slightly bigger channel and have no change (which is almost dust).

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June 29, 2019, 12:47:35 PM
 #77

I'm going to ask a mindnumbingly obvious question here.

If there's a TESTNET version of eclair https://github.com/ACINQ/eclair-mobile/releases why aren't we using testnet bitcoins?

Can a new thread for TESTNET Bitcoin lightning be started to run in parallel to this thread?

Timelord2067's Timely Test and Main-neT LighTning Loans to a "T"
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5184177.0;dt
main-net BTC 0.0001 loans, test-net BTC 0.001 loans 1% seven days max.
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June 29, 2019, 12:51:46 PM
 #78

If there's a TESTNET version of eclair https://github.com/ACINQ/eclair-mobile/releases why aren't we using testnet bitcoins?
It's more fun to play with the real stuff Smiley

Quote
Can a new thread for TESTNET Bitcoin lightning be started to run in parallel to this thread?
I'm not doing it (and I'm not sure if it would be allowed on the Lending board), but feel free to create one.
Timelord2067's Trusted Testnet Thunder Timepayments?

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June 29, 2019, 12:55:05 PM
 #79

If there's a TESTNET version of eclair https://github.com/ACINQ/eclair-mobile/releases why aren't we using testnet bitcoins?
It's more fun to play with the real stuff Smiley

Quote
Can a new thread for TESTNET Bitcoin lightning be started to run in parallel to this thread?
I'm not doing it (and I'm not sure if it would be allowed on the Lending board), but feel free to create one.

No. No. No. Thank you for the suggestion, but no.  I thought we were just testing out the lightning network.

Timelord2067's Timely Test and Main-neT LighTning Loans to a "T"
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5184177.0;dt
main-net BTC 0.0001 loans, test-net BTC 0.001 loans 1% seven days max.
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June 29, 2019, 05:24:39 PM
 #80

No. No. No. Thank you for the suggestion, but no.  I thought we were just testing out the lightning network.

If you want to test it out without touching your mainnet coins then install Eclair Mobile Testnet, grab some free testnet coins and buy yourself a coffee via the Lightning Network.

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