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Question:  Mining: Adding Solar Home Now, as "Mining Hedge" for future 2020 miners?
Would do this hedge, if had enough crypto! - 3 (42.9%)
Would not do this hedge, if had enough crypto! - 1 (14.3%)
Woud do, because home equip will be available! - 2 (28.6%)
Would not do, no home equip will be available! - 1 (14.3%)
No Viewpoint at this time. - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 7

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Author Topic: Mining: Adding Solar Home Now, as "Mining Hedge" for future 2020 miners?  (Read 313 times)
Searing
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June 15, 2019, 10:36:21 PM
Last edit: June 20, 2019, 04:12:01 PM by Searing
Merited by The Pharmacist (4)
 #1

Ok. I think this is the correct subtopic for this, in that it is 2019 and NOTHING seems viable as to ASIC equipment of ANY flavor. I'm fishing for an angle/hedge like the ASIC equipment days.
As this relates to mining crypto, from 2013 till 2018, I used equipment as a 'hedge' against downturns in price and for tax write offs (not applicable as biz with home mining though..ouch!)
In those years. (Yeah, should have done more in 2018, but who expects a 75% plus drop in BTC and Crypto in general). This worked quite well. A little equipment, some HODL, some caution.
Looking at Solar with Xcel in the upper Midwest the 'bastards' will only buy back (Winter Rate 10c kWh, Summer rate 12c kWh) 10% more than your use
back into the grid. Grrr...So my plan to use $100 and sell back $200 into the grid, is not gonna fly.

So, with that took the wind out of my sales.

Before I knew this, I researched that it would be about 30k to put up a 9 KW Solar Setup on the large flat rear dormer of my house. AFTER rebates,
(not sure if they even will exist next year under Trump Administration)
It was knocked down to about 21k more or less. Anyway 'rough' idea of what it would cost yet in 2019.
So I'd use this without mining about MAYBE average 1 KW or approximately. Say at ave yearly of 12 kWh. Kinda/Sorta.
That comes out to about $120 a month. That is maybe high, but lets go with that.
Best case I have 8 KW a month of 'un-used' power from the solar panel above setup.
A solar setup like the above of say only 5 KW or so install would still be like 12K. Comes a point you need the basic equipment anyway, so that don't downsize well.

Well, you can see where I'm going.

As a 'hedge' for this 'overcapacity' you, of course, COULD supposedly buy miner equipment in the future. Likely would have to be the next generation and of course
for that to happen you'd need a corresponding revival of BTC and crypto prices. Used, would likely by that point in difficulty of whatever coin your POW mining be 'iffy'. Though.
Thus, assuming that is the case, with the solar panels already up BEFORE said miner equipment exits, as a hedge, against all your crypto in 1 basket, etc.
and supposedly 'if' 'new' miners came back into play and worthwhile doing this with an 'existing' solar setup ready for such.

Well, you could have your cake and eat it to. Hedging BTC into solar in case of a downturn
or sideways action and setup for miners to come back in the future that you could use this setup to recoup the setup solar costs in say 7 years vs 14 years plus.

The catch of course is 'will' there ever be BTC and crypto equipment in the future worth doing that makes sense on the above hedge/solar/guess?
The only way I can see that such would work is now in the 'dredges' of 2019, you could do the solar setup, ahead of any appropriate miner equipment of any ASIC flavor.
Worse case, mining never comes back and you have 'cute' solar overcapacity setup. (Put in an electric sauna?).

Best case scenario, you'd be positioned with your hedge to then undercut practically everyone with say 6-8 KW of power to next-generation mining, with the next ONLY risk,
the miners in question. Again, remember this is a 'hedge' position in the sense, taking some crypto you may be able to get back thru mining trickery in the future, and at worse
you get solar for your house, by using 'some' crypto with this hedge. Also, of course, the 'supposed' future next generation miner 'hedge' you can then exploit in the future with

solar already in play, in say 2020 or 2021. This is 'imperfect' but, IMHO, I may get a 'bit' sketchy at say a BTC price of say 10k plus and want to bleed some out for home

improvement use. This seems a way that may work. Of course, IF I am completely wrong, then my next 'hedge' would be to buy an electric Tesla as my next hedge. Heh!.

Called having my cake and eating it too. ( Could be I just want a solar roof toy and then the justification for a Tesla...I guess I can also work with that if the future

next generation miners never work out) Smiley Many 'Toys' in either result!

What do you think? Take the poll.

Brad

Note: Moderators on Bitcointalk will not let me stray into the economics of elec rates in my area on how solar is or is not gonna work. Thus you need to PM for specifics. Such
posts keep getting deleted.

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Searing
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June 15, 2019, 10:36:37 PM
Last edit: June 20, 2019, 04:12:36 PM by Searing
 #2

Note: Folk who keep asking me about WHY my prices don't work for solar in my area and/or elec rates as they relate to solar will have to contact me via PM.
Any talk about electric utility prices as regards to solar and estimates seem to be always deleted by the Bitcointalk moderators. Such content for whatever reason must be a no/no and has to be done via PM. (I don't get this I play this game on elec rates vs mining equip all the time in those threads). Whatever.
Bitcointalk is not mine to run. Such is how it is. FYI.

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June 16, 2019, 12:44:49 AM
 #3

You could double dip if the miners heated the house, but then you'd have more over capacity Smiley

I think the main thing is making profitable miners that will live in a residential setting as I do not believe you can treat the over-capacity as "free" like some might try to do. It also seems to me you'd eat up a lot of profits/benefits trying to work out air flow, sound deadening, and electrical work.

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June 16, 2019, 02:52:13 AM
Last edit: June 16, 2019, 03:05:25 AM by philipma1957
Merited by The Pharmacist (2)
 #4

We have solar and it can be worthwhile.

A lot depends on your site and your state laws.

you are looking at the hedge wrong.


pretend 21k is your cost

a safe investment gives 4%  so 840 a year in earnings on 21k


what do we earn with 21k + 1k = 22k  the one  1k was four 4 s-9's with psu's

that is 52th which right now is 0.053844 btc a month  or 473.82  x 12 = 5685 a year.  if the solar  covers 4 machines  well a 9kwatt system covers 1 machine

so  redo figures  21K +250 = 21250     1 s9 will be fully covered  and run for free forever  at the moment it will earn 0.053844/4 =

0.013461 btc a month  or 118 usd a month x 12 = 1421 usd a year maybe  vs 840 a year leaving the 21k in the bank

So if you have 21k  to spend on your system  the chances are it will always earn some money  if you don't spend past its power.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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June 16, 2019, 02:52:40 AM
Last edit: June 17, 2019, 11:07:22 AM by frodocooper
 #5

You could double dip if the miners heated the house, but then you'd have more over capacity Smiley

I think the main thing is making profitable miners that will live in a residential setting as I do not believe you can treat the over-capacity as "free" like some might try to do. It also seems to me you'd eat up a lot of profits/benefits trying to work out air flow, sound deadening, and electrical work.

Could be true. I have a large exhaust fan in the bsmt with hood. I did run like about watts or at 1,250 watts each 8 KNC Titan Scypt Miners back in the day and kept them cool. In th basement in the Summertime.

This was about 12,500 watts 24/7. But those units are 'quiet' not at the high decibel range of say a Bitmain S9i BTC miner for example.

Again, the noise would likely be the issue. Maybe the heat is more an issue with more modern stuff say that would come out in 2020.

As I said, this is a 'hedge' on spending some BTC or Crypto if we have a massive pump, this time around again, and some 'cushion' with 'benefits' if BTC or crypto was to dump. Thus the hedge comment.

The off-hand trend I've seen (I could be wrong) is KNC Jupiter Miner 2013 (noisy) KNC Titan Scrypt Miner (cubes) not, Bitmain units (noisy) ...so every other generation of miners seems to be loud and then the improvement the next generation is quieter and rinse/wash/repeat. Again, I'm kinda guessing on this I 20/20 hindsight, but I think that WAS a trend. As to the future, if things go full data hall, noise and airflow issues and like Spondoolies 15K units for said data halls. Well, if you did the solar hedge your backup would be 1) Tesla 2) electric dry Sauna in Basement 3) an ROI of like 14 years Sad

Damn, it would be nice to hedge on solar 1 year ahead of next generation of any flavor miners in 2020 thru say 2021. In my area average for a year electric rates is the issue 12c kWh. Thus, this could very well be the ONLY real option I have on 'self-controlled' mining for fun and profit with equipment on hand.

Will be interesting if I DON'T do this in any manner, what I would think IF a mess of next-generation miners did come out and save the day at the end of say 2019 and 2020.

Hell, probably just a pipe dream. I miss mining. With solar even if it took 14 years to pay back or more. At least I'd have something to watch at home and diddle with.

(The ASIC Addiction is strong in this one) Sad

We have solar and it can be worthwhile.

A lot depends on your site and your state laws...

Biggest catch I have is they ONLY will buy back 10% over of what you use on average from the previous year of use. Then they re-check it every 6 months.

Thus when 'mining' I would NOT want to sell the electric back. This would leave me with 6 months of selling at a larger rate the 10% they would buy back for only 6 months. Amazing, how the utilities SAY they want you to go solar, or renewable, but if you overbuild and put back in the EXISTING electrical net...they limit you.

Even though from a logic point of view it makes much more sense $$ wise because the infrastructure is already in place and it is a win/win.

You are simply running the meter backward frame of mind.

But the utility can't do that or they can't make any money on their own renewable or solar farms they push of wind generators. etc.

GASP, what would happen if a MESS of folk, took the risk and put up 3x the capacity that they needed and sold 2x the excess back to the utilities?

No control and no $$$ for control by the utilities. Extra electric would flow back into the existing electrical infrastructure and no need for new plants ...stock would fall...billionaires would drop down to multi-millionaires. Chaos rules. etc, etc.

Everyone says they want 'entrepreneurs but here is an example of how well it would work and it is stopped cold. I guess I should not complain. It is probably a miracle that technology has gotten to the point with solar that they even have to pay you back for 10% of your over surplus electric that just meets your home electrical needs.

Again, I know 'zip' thus this thread. Just pondering such solar options. There was a day I'd drop 20k on miner equipment without care on a hedge over just going HODL mode with what BTC and Crypto I had at the time. So I'm just kinda pondering this for the hell of it.

(6 years an ASIC miner now is like being a Zepplin/Dirigible Pilot Captain....all that 6 years of ASIC miner expertise and skills and 'poof' no way to use it anymore)

Later.

Gonna go out for drinks with the Buggie Makers and the Whale Oil Distribution folks to drown our sorrows. Smiley

Brad

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June 16, 2019, 03:34:12 AM
Last edit: June 17, 2019, 11:08:20 AM by frodocooper
 #6

If you look at eff improvement
It is close to done.

I began with GPUs. 2012

400 watts 1Gh.  2012. This is 400 to 1

S1 2014

360watts 180gh 2014.  This is 2 to 1

2 years 200x power

S9 2016

1360 watts 13000 gh this is .1 watts to 1 gh

2 years  20x power.

S15

1600 watts 28000 gh this is .056 watts a gh

2 years 2x the power.

This means we simply won’t get better at the rate we did.

So this is the time to do solar.

Right now an s9 would earn money mining on your listed solar setup.

As long as you have 21k to invest you should do it.

To further clarify you need 30k you get a 9k rebate. You spent 21k

You use 1 s9 cost 250.  You should  still have at least 3btc in hold .  Along with the money spent on this.

Along with 25k in cash.

So about 1/3 solar and miner
About 1/3 btc
About 1/3 cash.

If I had ability to do that I would.

To clarify down the road when price drops on say s15 to cheap replace that s-9

The solar should last 20-30 years.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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June 16, 2019, 07:13:25 PM
Last edit: June 19, 2019, 10:46:01 AM by frodocooper
 #7

I'm retired on crypto. The train of thought in my retirement last year 1/1418 was I'd have enough to have the same 35k or so lifestyle I had before, till 2021 and 2 months for full-time retirement and access to traditional retirement funds, even if Crypto/BTC went full "Tulips". I also assumed I'd have enough ALT coins to make that 3-year bridge selling them off to cover those 3 years of working at about $35k the 3-year gap retire early $35k and of course even if crypt/BTC went full tulips, same about 32K a year off traditional investments...so looked pretty straight forward.

One does not expect a 75% Loss or more on BTC price and/or 90% or more on altcoins. Thus pretty much used MOST of my altcoins in 1 year to keep retired...and panic sold (sorry real-world issues with above crypto/BTC dump in price) 10% of my Bitcoin Hoard. IT WAS UGLY.

Thus the 'hedge' analogy of this thread on the next pump over 10k say...I may not do as well in HODL mode watching that and remembering the 'horror' of the last pump and dump in crypto. Just saying.

So being 1) greedy 2) like to mine 3) used to use the equipment and double down the solar type of money back in the day on makeing more crypto in miners going out than they cost...the solar angle/thread here

As to what you say, 1/3 cash ..er...nope...all retirement till 66 and 2 months for a full boat is coming out of crypto, baring an emergency.

1/3 crypto already figured into above

1/3 solar and miner for, as you state above I get that...

Still pondering it. It is likely more prudent than getting a better car. (2005 Ford Taurus to be like 'Batman' and move in 'stealth' people never suspecting  I have any BTC or crypto. Ninja Like.)

This is also is Minnesota. So some reduction (what 1/3) due to cloudy days and winter etc? compared to Arizona?

Also, on the other side, supposedly something like this would pay off in say, at worst, 15 years as a backup to if mining in no matter ever worked?

Also, as stated in the previous post a 9KW setup is like $5k more than a say 5KW setup, at that point you may as well go the full 9K setup, even if you can't use (without mining) anything more than 1kw out of the 8k capacity. The Xcel utility NOT paying any more than your electric use the last 6 months hurts.

A catch 22. IF your using miners with the solar you don't want to sell back to Xcel your 10% over at market rates of 12c kWh. Then when you DO want to sell to Xcel, because miners are fading, you can only do so for 6 months, then they re-look and screwed again.

Well, stuff to ponder. Hopefully, this thread will help those NOT in quite the fix I am with location/12kWh prices (yech!) and such.

I'll run some more figures. Figure out how much of a hedge I want to go toward solar vs crypto hodl mode, as a back up. But again, like everyone else I'm greedy. I want to hedge with the solar but using mining to get out of my hedge (even if only in $$$ spent and not crypto) in like 7-8 years max.

Maybe, that is no longer possible. Also, don't forget about the 'noise' or data hall versions of miners in the future. This probably has to be farmed out as working with used miners as well, even if not as good as 'next generation miners' I assume will come out someday in 2020?

Sorry for the rambling, but all this has a lot of moving parts indeed. Does not help when you talk to Xcel and all they want to do is lock you into a solar plan at a fixed rate on your roof or their solar farm or other things were 'supposedly' you are supporting solar..but they are controlling your prices etc could be worse. Hawaii has the most solar and they buy back nothing. Now the thermal plant they had to make solar got covered by lava and they are driving even more people to solar completely and sending the meters back. At least Minnesota is not that bad (yet)

Anyway, will do more figuring and whining and such and post results in the future.

Thanks, Philipma1957 as always you are very helpful.

brad



On Further Pondering. (posted this on the wrong thread and deleted...may as well post it where I was supposed to in the first place)

The biiggest catch I have is Xcel Electric Utility (Midwest USA) will ONLY buy back 10% over of what you use on average from the previous year of use.

Then they re-check it every 6 months.

Thus when 'mining' I would NOT want to sell the electric back. This would leave me with 6 months of selling at a larger rate the 10% they would buy back for only 6 months. Amazing, how the utilities SAY they want you to go solar, or renewable, but if you overbuild and put back in the EXISTING electrical net...they limit you.

Even though from a logic point of view it makes much more sense $$ wise because the infrastructure is already in place and it is a win/win.

You are simply running the meter backward frame of mind.

But the utility can't do that or they can't make any money on their own renewable or solar farms they push of wind generators. etc.

GASP, what would happen if a MESS of folk, took the risk and put up 3x the capacity that they needed and sold 2x the excess back to the utilities?

No control and no $$$ for control by the utilities. Extra electric would flow back into the existing electrical infrastructure and no need for new plants ...stock would fall...billionaires would drop down to multi-millionaires. Chaos rules. etc, etc.

Everyone says they want 'entrepreneurs but here is an example of how well it would work and it is stopped cold. I guess I should not complain. It is probably a miracle that technology has gotten to the point with solar that they even have to pay you back for 10% of your over surplus electric that just meets your home electrical needs.

Again, I know 'zip' thus this thread. Just pondering such solar options. There was a day I'd drop 20k on miner equipment without care on a hedge over just going HODL mode with what BTC and Crypto I had at the time. So I'm just kinda pondering this for the hell of it.

(6 years an ASIC miner now is like being a Zepplin/Dirigible Pilot Captain....all that 6 years of ASIC miner expertise and skills and 'poof' no way to use it anymore)

Later.

Gonna go out for drinks with the Buggie Makers and the Whale Oil Distribution folks to drown our sorrows.

Brad

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June 17, 2019, 06:13:09 PM
Last edit: June 19, 2019, 10:47:14 AM by frodocooper
 #8

Even though from a logic point of view it makes much more sense $$ wise because the infrastructure is already in place and it is a win/win. You are simply running the meter backward frame of mind.

It's almost but not quite that simple: The problem Utilities run into is that the monitoring and control part of their infra was designed assuming power is going out to the end-user. Yes local loads around the folks using solar etc. to feed back into the grid can and will absorb much of the 'wrong-way' power flow but -- there is a limit to how much can be fed in because way-back when the control infra was built they only cared about sending to customers. Putting several out of their control power sources that are each independently trying to regulate their power output into the grid raises hell with it if the local loads can't use at least a large part of it.

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June 17, 2019, 06:23:30 PM
Last edit: June 19, 2019, 10:47:30 AM by frodocooper
Merited by The Pharmacist (2)
 #9

I am pretty sure I read an article a while back where Hawaii was having this exact issue. Their infrastructure could not handle the influx of solar power electricity being generated by residents, I *think* they might have been charging them or something crazy.

Now the tin foil hat side said this was just the power companies trying to restrict or penalize solar use, you can make your own assumptions, but it is an interesting development.

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June 17, 2019, 06:30:15 PM
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Every place is different based on laws, tax treatment, and incentives.  In no scenario where I live has producing more than I use to sell back to the utility making any sense. They buy back at the wholesale rate where I live so I am giving away power at a price way below it cost me to produce.  

So I would only size your solar for your own needs.  Also with the power hungry nature of mining you can really only hope to offset a small amount of power demand in a home setting.  So if you look at it from a perspective of reducing the cost per KWH for mining then maybe it can be used in that way.  

I have solar at my home that I built myself and the reality is that it really only offsets a tiny portion of my electric use.  That being said I did it for my own convictions and not from an economic value perspective and I will do it again when I move to my next home as well.  

Having solar, some sort of redundant power supply for emergencies, and even the ability to charge an electric car all are things that are quite appealing to me personally so would rather focus on those aspects more so than the mining side of it.  Quality of life sort of things.    
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June 17, 2019, 06:59:00 PM
Last edit: June 19, 2019, 05:46:28 PM by Artemis3
 #11

Regardless of what you do, solar panels and a grid tie inverter are going to lower your power bill, now, in 5 years and in 20 years.

If you want to mine no matter what, then even more reason for you to lower that bill. If you never mine, you still save electricity and the thing will ROI in some years.

Only reason to not invest in renewables is lacking the money for the initial investment. Remember, you don't need any batteries you are not going off grid or doing backup power. Of course you can also do that but its much more expensive.

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June 17, 2019, 07:06:48 PM
Last edit: June 19, 2019, 10:48:36 AM by frodocooper
 #12

Every place is different based on laws, tax treatment, and incentives.  In no scenario where I live has producing more than I use to sell back to the utility making any sense. They buy back at the wholesale rate where I live so I am giving away power at a price way below it cost me to produce.  

So I would only size your solar for your own needs.  Also with the power hungry nature of mining you can really only hope to offset a small amount of power demand in a home setting.  So if you look at it from a perspective of reducing the cost per KWH for mining then maybe it can be used in that way.  

I have solar at my home that I built myself and the reality is that it really only offsets a tiny portion of my electric use.  That being said I did it for my own convictions and not from an economic value perspective and I will do it again when I move to my next home as well.  

Having solar, some sort of redundant power supply for emergencies, and even the ability to charge an electric car all are things that are quite appealing to me personally so would rather focus on those aspects more so than the mining side of it.  Quality of life sort of things.    

Yeah, that is the catch. IF for example, I got a 9KW or can put up on my flat roof (if my calcs are right) for 30k cost and real cost would be 21k after rebates/tax credit etc.

(for all I know that such rebates would disappear under the Trump Admin in 2020 anyway, which comes under the heading of 'not good'). Anyway without mining for electric, say for math I'd use 1k or so. Thus around 7k left to apply to crypto mining. Or a massive excess that I'd need to blow on a Tesla/Batteries and/or electric dry sauna. Smiley

At 21k say cost, after rebates for 9KW an equivalent say the 5KW system would only be like around at most $5,000 less or around say $15,000. Thus, it makes little sense for me to downsize or even get solar at the 5kw rate. At that point, I'm talking just the addition in cost for solar panels to get me up to the 9KW stuff.

There is a 'limit' on how low I can go that even makes sense to do this, even without the mining coming into play.

So normal Solar, no mining at the 9kw rate would take say, 15 years to pay off.

With the 'supposed' mining angle, I'd be looking at, if 'lucky' 7-8 years instead. Thus the only way solar would work for me without the mining and/or as a 'hedge' to put some crypto in something, in case the price dumps again some (at whatever point I sell crypto for the solar) well, I'd need to get a Tesla and an electric dry sauna to justify the 15 year solar from crypto install.

Pretty muddied. But for 1/2 the price of a new 'budget priced' car and as a 'hedge' for taking some crypto out and using it for something 'useful' that 'supposedly' I could get some mining benefit from (delusional perhaps) this solar install idea.

If nothing else it is a pretty good 'thought experiment' along the lines of what I used to do with thinking I either should get ASIC equipment or not back in the day. This solar angle is MORE complex and again in a large part it is based on an 'assumption' that I could get next generation (or hell even current generation) miners that would make sense heat and noise wise in my basement with this whole 'dubious' solar half-assed plan.

Stuff to do

Brad

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June 17, 2019, 07:47:34 PM
Last edit: June 19, 2019, 10:49:09 AM by frodocooper
 #13

Only reason to not invest in renewables is lacking the money for the initial investment.

Yeah if you can afford to set up at least 10kwatts on your roof you should do it.

10kwatts  is about 10000/7 = 1425 watts 24/7/365  when averaged out.

So it means  you kind of run an s-9  24/7/365 for free.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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June 17, 2019, 08:29:33 PM
Last edit: June 19, 2019, 10:50:47 AM by frodocooper
 #14

Yeah. I just miss ASIC mining and this is something to wrap my head around as an angle. I found out from my CPA you can't use this as a tax write off at 25% off gross income as you can with ASIC mining. At least the home miner aspect. I was told you could (maybe?) use this as a tax write off like equipment if it was 'separate' from your house and/or say a data hall set up for exclusive ASIC miner and crypto use in the crypto business. I'm unsure about that. Only pretty sure on the home solar kind of thing I'm thinking of does not fly as such.

Also, I have a brother and this being Minnesota he has solar at his hobby farm and his business. He did the business when you should have gotten solar panels like about  5-7 years ago. I think he got the biggest he could get then 20kw. He is grandfathered in and can sell ALL of his excesses back at the current electric rate. Found this out today talking to him.

Another reason for Sibling Envy. He does, however, HAVE excess he could use for mining. But in that, he is in a town where the electric and the utils and trash and water and such is ALL bundled and such, so he uses all of the electric to just pay for all his above bills and has no excess he wants to use miners for. This 20kw panel is at the business.

The solar he has at the hobby farm like 2 years ago, is under all the constraints now I would be at. Thus he has no surplus at all with that setup. So it goes. We need a Green Vision for the future to get this Federal and State Rebates back. That seems, unlikely indeed in these times.

Anyway.



Yeah if you can afford to set up at least 10kwatts on your roof you should do it.

10kwatts  is about 10000/7 = 1425 watts 24/7/365  when averaged out.

So it means  you kind of run an s-9  24/7/365 for free.

I'm confused. So at say a 9KW setup. I could only run ONE S9i for free 24/7/365. Ack! I have to do some more figures. I thought I could run MORE than just ONE unit for free with a 30k investment and 21K after rebates setup. Had not gotten that far to do the math. Will have to do so later when I have time. Was mostly thinking of install costs and had not gotten drilled down that far. Kinda a self-protection thing I guess, don't want to get too far into the math and nitty gritty of a solar panel setup like I used to get into buying 'dubious' mining equipment. That is a treacherous slope of ASIC addiction. Probably why I have not drilled down that far yet.

As usual, the devil is in the details, thus why I have this thread...to stop me from my own excesses. No issue with excesses for buying pre-order dubious ASIC miners of any flavor with the 25% tariff from China the 2.6% import tax and the 'supposed' say $85 shipping DHL to the USA, as a guess on shipping.

Well, this has been something to ponder besides my lack of an ASIC miner fix anyway. Smiley

Will dig into this deeper. I have no life (thus this thread) so what the heck.

later

Brad

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June 17, 2019, 08:56:18 PM
 #15

You also have to keep in mind that the site will dictate how many solar hours you are going to get in a day.   You will want a site analysis done to see what shading you will experience through all 4 seasons to determine if the site will be impacted.  You also will want to go out and look at the online resources that tell you what the solar hours are for the location where you want to put the solar panels as that is a best guess on what you will likely get providing there are no obstructions or things that are going to cast a shadow on the panel install. 

Then boil it down to what is realistic for the location.  So let's say it boils down to 5 good hours a day, then do the math.  More hours typically in the summer time, less hours in the winter.  Again anything you over produce will get sold back to the power company, and then you end up buying it back after you don't have the sunlight anymore.  Depending on the utility company and state the rates can vary greatly.  I know in my location I would be selling back at wholesale and buying at retail so it makes no sense to over produce anything. 

Economically it didn't work out to make sense from a pure mining perspective for me based on my own situation.  I think once you run the numbers you will have to decide if you are doing this for reasons other than mining and if it is worth it to you for your own situation. 
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June 17, 2019, 09:48:51 PM
Last edit: June 19, 2019, 10:52:06 AM by frodocooper
 #16

Yeah, for me it would be the weather. Supposedly, without batteries in mass, you can only run these free 'maybe' on average 2/3 a day or less at best...likely much, much less. Then this being Minnesota and all and cloudy a lot and also Winter...hell, these units w/o mining could take like 20 years to pay back rather than 15 years.

I guess if I still want to do this as a 'thought experiment' because I'm bored and can't figure out ASIC Miner angles on pre-orders anymore for fun, due to tariffs...well I'd better hope I can get some free energy estimates on the 'ahem' supposed have it done by someone else. Rather than myself. (I was an apprentice electrician after 2 years of Vo-tech and also 2 years of experience...40 some years ago! I am retired on crypto so have the time.)

So stuff to do...play within the cobwebs of my mind...(damn, I need a life) Smiley

But yeah, need to talk to some professionals who have such info as weather/season/cloud cover/etc all figured out already in their presentations for this area of the Midwest.

As to the HOW much for shade etc...I have a huge dormer on the back (unfinished but big) of about I'd guess 30' by 30' at least. Looks like a frigging Helipad landing zone.

On google maps, being flat and steel roof and such that at least would be ideal. No shade issues it is too high. Of course how to get to that area of the roof w/o adding say a 'metal enclosed steel ladder set up now is debatable. Access with roof hatch? (leaking issues someday) or what.

Had a 3.5 story old crummy wood 3 level deck setup taken down in 2013 or so for siding such and the steel roof. But steel roof and all, I never bothered with easy access.

Well, at least I'm 'occupied', stuff to do.

brad

Old Style Legacy Plug & Play BBS System. Get it from www.synchro.net. Updated 1/1/19. It also works with Windows 10 and allows 16 bit DOS game doors on the same Win 10 Machine! Five Minute Install! Look it over uninstalls just as fast! Freeware! Full BBS System! It is a frigging hoot!:)
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June 17, 2019, 10:29:12 PM
Last edit: June 19, 2019, 10:52:31 AM by frodocooper
 #17

So much money and effort for that amount of mining. I was looking into solar/wind energy solutions for mining as well but that much effort to just run a single asic miner seems like a humongous undertaking. Would you be better off running as many miners as you could during daylight hours then shutting down for the night? A bit more of a hassle but you can try to max out everything you get from the sun.

I really do want to make more of an effort in investing into renewables. Not only should we be moving away from fossil fuels, but the energy companies have been nickel and diming us way too much.
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June 17, 2019, 11:21:35 PM
Last edit: June 19, 2019, 10:52:45 AM by frodocooper
 #18

it may work better mining from day to dusk.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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June 18, 2019, 05:12:03 AM
Last edit: June 22, 2019, 11:12:05 AM by frodocooper
 #19

Again this is just a mental experiment. It was pointed out to me that (1) I may not be allowed to make a solar array at more than the Xcel 10% over my use is. Thus at present non-mining rate that means I'd have a solar array at like 2KW at best...closer to 1KW in reality..if the hard and fast 10% over rule was in play. A buddy said he looked into this a year or so back with Xcel and the solar contractors, doing the free estimate said they 'could not' overbuild beyond what Xcel would buy back. So he said screw it.

(2) If the contractors can't overbuild you could find yourself overbuilding and be caught in the same trap and NOT allowed to use your extra capacity for any use. Giant waste. Unsure about that, you'd think I could overbuild if I did it myself, but the city and state may crimp that at the bud. Something to consider. The buddy swears they told him a paid solar contractor CANNOT break that rule in this area.

(3) Assuming you COULD overbuild and Xcel was to limit you as they state to 10% over your usage per day. Where do you think the extra electric would go? Back to Xcel at no cost any/over 10% of your use. Which they check every 6 months at an average to pay you based on. Nice racket. I would have a nice RED switch box I'd shut off after my 10% limit was up, more or less. But that would suck on an overbuild.

Interesting stuff on all this. I may get no place but would be interesting to see how it all works. I may call in a couple solar contractors and such and see how this really shakes out. IF they do a free or modest fee evaluation. They also would have the background on how many days in Minnesota you actually can get any solar output. I could find out only say 7-8 months such a 9kw could meet my regular house needs. Would be overkill on a 9kw build due to cloud cover and climate, but would be good to know.

What the heck. I'm retired on crypto and I the math is no fun on pre-order miners anymore...so I can  pursue this as a 'quirk'

stuff to do

brad



Well..this is 'interesting' in a FML kind of way.

I got my Xcel Utility Bill today. This bill is 1/2 Winter Rates and 1/2 Summer rates as of yet.

Last Year my Summer Electric Rate was 15.1c kWh I think it was.

The current bill (including 1/2 on winter rates) was 15.6c kWh. FML.

So it is possible my rates for the next 5 months will be in excess of 17c kWh. Again. FML.

So...looking at the solar calculator now at 9KW. That comes out to according to 'dubious' solar installer calculator sites for Minnesota at about $125 a month equivalent. That will likely NOW be more or less what I'm gonna spend without Solar now for Summer rates anyway for just the house.

So my question on solar as a hedge is NOW somewhat moot. At these prices, the entire Solar output may simply be enough for my needs each month in electric on average.

This is disheartening indeed.

So now I do have to look into Solar for the same reasons as I was with mining, just to see how this all works and hurdles and such.

Likely, this is NOT going to go away. If last year was 15.1 kWh for summer rates and this year say it is 17c kWh ..then what likely next summer I'm looking at summer rates of what 18c kWh plus?

Sh*t

Well, anyway, the Avalon 821 I got as a gift (thanks steamtyme) for postage. The Bitmain S9i I got a couple of months back on a fluke are all going to the buddies data hall. (Maxumark) for much less electric rate. I may only be swap'ing electric for crypto this next month, but I'm paying month to month so what the heck.

Sheesh.

brad



As to the upper midwest and for purposes of this thread, I'm afraid the risk/reward is too great for such a solar bitcoin mining option, again as I said in the midwest.

On looking at the calculations in my area and the Utilities limiting what they will buy back for electric (10%) and limiting size vs the utilities buyback, I just mentioned.

It seems very unlikely in Minnesota, that any Solar will be viable with any bitcoin mining machines. From what I have found and the cloudy skies and winter and etc.

This makes little or no sense. Even IF there are 'viable' bitcoin miners in the future, it is not going to work in my area.

So, others probably in AZ or UT or some such, MAY have better values than myself.

Again, others with better utilities and/or electric rates feel free to post on here about how it may work in your area. At least I can see how it works from afar.

Brad

Old Style Legacy Plug & Play BBS System. Get it from www.synchro.net. Updated 1/1/19. It also works with Windows 10 and allows 16 bit DOS game doors on the same Win 10 Machine! Five Minute Install! Look it over uninstalls just as fast! Freeware! Full BBS System! It is a frigging hoot!:)
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