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Author Topic: Flagging accounts which are up to sale [DT member actions needed]  (Read 11293 times)
marlboroza
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June 22, 2019, 08:22:34 PM
Merited by mindrust (1)
 #41

Interesting point of view. I kind of agree here, despite these people being account sellers, was it really right to mislead them (and in a way, scam them?) as 2 wrongs don't make a right. Curious as to how other people think about this..
Sting operations are always double edged sword.
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otrkid1970
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June 22, 2019, 08:25:26 PM
 #42

[..] After receiving the confidential information, you did not follow through on your end of the contract, and the person suffered damages in the form of decreased value of what he is selling as a direct result of your actions.
[...]

What the hell?

How did my expection to receive an PM to get the proof of ownership decrease the value of what he is selling?

I didn't know accounts lose value for each PM sent... But that's probably because i don't buy/sell accounts..

If i bid on an auction item and then disagree to pay i would be considered untrustworthy to hold a deal/
AdolfinWolf
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June 22, 2019, 08:26:45 PM
 #43

[..] After receiving the confidential information, you did not follow through on your end of the contract, and the person suffered damages in the form of decreased value of what he is selling as a direct result of your actions.
[...]

What the hell?

How did my expection to receive an PM to get the proof of ownership decrease the value of what he is selling?

I didn't know accounts lose value for each PM sent... But that's probably because i don't buy/sell accounts..

If i bid on an auction item and then disagree to pay i would be considered untrustworthy to hold a deal/
Not relevant/applicable here. Ofcourse it would.  Roll Eyes That's more or less the equivalent of:  "If i steal candy would i be considered a thief?"

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June 22, 2019, 08:28:25 PM
 #44

[..] After receiving the confidential information, you did not follow through on your end of the contract, and the person suffered damages in the form of decreased value of what he is selling as a direct result of your actions.
[...]

What the hell?

How did my expection to receive an PM to get the proof of ownership decrease the value of what he is selling?

I didn't know accounts lose value for each PM sent... But that's probably because i don't buy/sell accounts..

If i bid on an auction item and then disagree to pay i would be considered untrustworthy to hold a deal/
Not relevant/applicable here. Ofcourse it would.  Roll Eyes

ok Hitler
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June 22, 2019, 08:29:03 PM
 #45

ok Hitler
Sorry?

suchmoon
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June 22, 2019, 08:32:01 PM
 #46

If you want to look at what you are buying before being obligated to buy said item, you should not make an offer before seeing it.

An offer is not an obligation. In my state even when buying a house an offer is just an offer and can be withdrawn for any reason before you sign an actual contract. Let alone buying a bicycle on Craigslist and making an offer over the phone.
Quickseller
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June 22, 2019, 08:33:32 PM
 #47

[..] After receiving the confidential information, you did not follow through on your end of the contract, and the person suffered damages in the form of decreased value of what he is selling as a direct result of your actions.
[...]

What the hell?

How did my expection to receive an PM to get the proof of ownership decrease the value of what he is selling?

I didn't know accounts lose value for each PM sent... But that's probably because i don't buy/sell accounts..
The value decreased when you disclosed the confidential information.

Interesting point of view. I kind of agree here, despite these people being account sellers, was it really right to mislead them (and in a way, scam them?) as 2 wrongs don't make a right. Curious as to how other people think about this..
Sting operations are always double edged sword.
Sting operations are a) done by law enforcement with strict oversight, and b) do not allow law enforcement to steal (or attempt to steal) from others, nor do they allow law enforcement to commit other torts

If you want to look at what you are buying before being obligated to buy said item, you should not make an offer before seeing it.

An offer is not an obligation. In my state even when buying a house an offer is just an offer and can be withdrawn for any reason before you sign an actual contract. Let alone buying a bicycle on Craigslist and making an offer over the phone.
The offer does not expose a person to liability. In order for an offer to obligate the person making the offer, it will need to be accepted by the other party prior to the offer being withdrawn, or expiring.

bob123 (OP)
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June 22, 2019, 08:42:41 PM
 #48

The value decreased when you disclosed the confidential information.

Which itself has nothing to do with the 'contract'. What is the 'confidential information' in your eyes ?
The only thing which is 'confidential' is the PM i received. And this PM itself did not decrease the value.

The fact that i called him out for doing shady business is what decreased the value. And ONLY if you really want to call it like that.
Because the accounts had no real value. They were sold for a price. That's it. But the real value was close to zero.. it is just some shitty account which is being traded. No value behind it.


By the way.. i don't have a problem with tagging account sellers and their accounts. Even if they 'lose value'.
I know that sounds harsh to someone who owns multiple accounts.. but it is the truth.



The offer does not expose a person to liability. In order for an offer to obligate the person making the offer, it will need to be accepted by the other party prior to the offer being withdrawn, or expiring.

There were so much things missing regarding the 'trade' that it wouldn't even be called 'similar to a contract' in my country..

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June 22, 2019, 08:51:57 PM
 #49

The value decreased when you disclosed the confidential information.

Which itself has nothing to do with the 'contract'. What is the 'confidential information' in your eyes ?
The only thing which is 'confidential' is the PM i received. And this PM itself did not decrease the value.

The fact that i called him out for doing shady business is what decreased the value. And ONLY if you really want to call it like that.
Because the accounts had no real value. They were sold for a price. That's it. But the real value was close to zero.. it is just some shitty account which is being traded. No value behind it.


By the way.. i don't have a problem with tagging account sellers and their accounts. Even if they 'lose value'.
I know that sounds harsh to someone who owns multiple accounts.. but it is the truth.
It is the exposing the information he gave you that caused the damages. In conjunction with your not following through on what you said you would do causes the flag the person could create to be valid.

If you want to go around damaging the value of what other people are selling, I think that is kinda sleazy, but go ahead and do that, just don't fail to follow through on your obligations in the process.


Quote
The offer does not expose a person to liability. In order for an offer to obligate the person making the offer, it will need to be accepted by the other party prior to the offer being withdrawn, or expiring.

There were so much things missing regarding the 'trade' that it wouldn't even be called 'similar to a contract' in my country..
You can learn about contracts here.
marlboroza
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June 22, 2019, 09:50:56 PM
 #50

Interesting point of view. I kind of agree here, despite these people being account sellers, was it really right to mislead them (and in a way, scam them?) as 2 wrongs don't make a right. Curious as to how other people think about this..
Sting operations are always double edged sword.
Sting operations are a) done by law enforcement with strict oversight, and b) do not allow law enforcement to steal (or attempt to steal) from others, nor do they allow law enforcement to commit other torts
Thanks for explaining me something I know. Jesus, some people on this forum  Roll Eyes

@OP good job exposing those accounts, account with positive trust could end up in wrong hands and do damage. Don't listen to QS, just take a look at his signature - he is knowingly advertising pump and dump.
bones261
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June 22, 2019, 10:05:48 PM
 #51


It is the exposing the information he gave you that caused the damages. In conjunction with your not following through on what you said you would do causes the flag the person could create to be valid.


Perhaps the flag will be valid. However, who is going to support it? In order for the banner and the warning to display for a person, 3 people on their trust list have to support it. I certainly do not see 3 DT1 and DT2 members supporting such a flag. Perhaps the account sellers/farmers can get together and create their own trust network.  Roll Eyes
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June 22, 2019, 10:09:27 PM
 #52

Damn. A+ for effort. That's some hardcore detective work. Here i was thinking Legendary/Hero account sellers were a myth by now.
-[clip]-


Here's one for sale for .45BTChttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5157380.0
They're all over the place. 
Quickseller
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June 22, 2019, 10:09:46 PM
 #53


It is the exposing the information he gave you that caused the damages. In conjunction with your not following through on what you said you would do causes the flag the person could create to be valid.


Perhaps the flag will be valid. However, who is going to support it? In order for the banner and the warning to display for a person, 3 people on their trust list have to support it. I certainly do not see 3 DT1 and DT2 members supporting such a flag. Perhaps the account sellers/farmers can get together and create their own trust network.  Roll Eyes

I’m sure there are at least three people in DT willing to support a flag for someone who was harmed, even if the underlying business they are involved in is not well liked.

If someone can break their agreements with someone who is unpopular, the trust system would be pretty pointless, and would be nothing other than a popularity contest.
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June 22, 2019, 10:33:49 PM
 #54

I’m sure there are at least three people in DT willing to support a flag for someone who was harmed, even if the underlying business they are involved in is not well liked.

Actually, the description of the flag says:
Quote
This user violated a written contract with me, resulting in damages.

The first point we can argue about is the violation. We have different point of views regarding this.


But absolutely clear is, that the so-called 'violation' definitely did NOT result in any damage at all.

What resulted in 'damage' was that i didn't just keep my mouth shut but took the appropriate action to tag the accounts as being up for sale.
1) This actually isn't any damage at all. The accounts ARE worth way less because being some good of a trade. Other people (outside of the trade) just didn't know it before the tag. Now, it is fair, since everyone has the same information regarding these accounts (the fact that they are just a good in a trade and that they shouldn't be trusted).
My actions did NOT reduce the value of these accounts, they revealed the actual value to everybody on this forum.
2) The 'damage' is not the result of rescinding from the 'trade'. It is the result of sharing information which everyone should have access too.


So, no.. I don't believe the flag would be appropriate.

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June 22, 2019, 11:40:47 PM
Merited by bones261 (2), Becky666 (2)
 #55

2) The 'damage' is not the result of rescinding from the 'trade'. It is the result of sharing information which everyone should have access too.

Damn right. Quicksy would probably try to call it an "implied contract" of keeping quiet but he's also said in the past that PMs are not private. If you ever get a flag for this I'll oppose it.
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June 22, 2019, 11:59:49 PM
 #56

2) The 'damage' is not the result of rescinding from the 'trade'. It is the result of sharing information which everyone should have access too.

Damn right. Quicksy would probably try to call it an "implied contract" of keeping quiet but he's also said in the past that PMs are not private. If you ever get a flag for this I'll oppose it.
The only reason why he received the information in the first place is because he entered into an agreement.

The OP would not have received said information if he had not agreed to buy the forum accounts after receiving the PM.

It is good to know you will oppose holding someone accountable for not honoring their terms of an agreement, and that you will protect someone who lied in order to get something from someone.
suchmoon
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June 23, 2019, 12:40:00 AM
 #57

2) The 'damage' is not the result of rescinding from the 'trade'. It is the result of sharing information which everyone should have access too.

Damn right. Quicksy would probably try to call it an "implied contract" of keeping quiet but he's also said in the past that PMs are not private. If you ever get a flag for this I'll oppose it.
The only reason why he received the information in the first place is because he entered into an agreement.

If I see a bicycle you're selling and tell everyone that it's ugly and the chain is broken - I don't think I'm in breach of a contract. Regardless of whether I subsequently buy the bicycle or not. Regardless of whether I mentioned a dollar amount beforehand or not.

Well done though - such valiant selfless defence of account farmers.
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June 23, 2019, 12:46:28 AM
 #58

2) The 'damage' is not the result of rescinding from the 'trade'. It is the result of sharing information which everyone should have access too.

Damn right. Quicksy would probably try to call it an "implied contract" of keeping quiet but he's also said in the past that PMs are not private. If you ever get a flag for this I'll oppose it.
The only reason why he received the information in the first place is because he entered into an agreement.

If I see a bicycle you're selling and tell everyone that it's ugly and the chain is broken - I don't think I'm in breach of a contract. Regardless of whether I subsequently buy the bicycle or not. Regardless of whether I mentioned a dollar amount beforehand or not.

Well done though - such valiant selfless defence of account farmers.
Perhaps you should stop commenting if you don't know what you are talking about -- I get that you want to make use of that paid avatar, but these types of posts are very harmful.

None of what you said has anything to do with the specific fact set that results in the OP being in breach of contract with the seller he was dealing with.
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June 23, 2019, 01:15:29 AM
 #59

Perhaps you should stop commenting if you don't know what you are talking about -- I get that you want to make use of that paid avatar, but these types of posts are very harmful.

None of what you said has anything to do with the specific fact set that results in the OP being in breach of contract with the seller he was dealing with.

LOL, projecting as usual. Unlike your Yobit signature, my avatar doesn't require me to post in order to get paid.

How about instead of running in circles trying to stretch this to a definition of a contract you go ahead and create the flag or contact the account seller and ask him to do that. I have a feeling it would be seen as "at least partially false" by quite a few users.
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June 23, 2019, 10:26:46 AM
Merited by marlboroza (1)
 #60


None of what you said has anything to do with the specific fact set that results in the OP being in breach of contract with the seller he was dealing with.

It depends on what was discussed.

Unless I missed something - they way I read it was that the OP just showed interest in buying an account in a "sting operation".

In order for a "breach of contract to occur there has to be offer and acceptance".

If the OP stated that he would buy a specific account once he verified that the seller owned it then there would be acceptance.

Whether anyone on DT would tag someone for breaking a contract for something that is discouraged on this forum is another matter.

A contract requires three essential components.

Offer
Acceptance of identical terms of the offer.
Consideration


But from what I read:


1)
After requesting proof of ownership of cicizhang and TanClan98 from SeW900, he told me that 'the account' already is banned.
Therefore he proposed me 2 other accounts, which i can buy (zackie and Zedster).

He told me to contact @TrustedAccSeller (via telegram), which i did.


After a long conversation with him and multiple excuses i brought up to not buy an account which he had proven the ownership of (because i wanted to tag as much accounts as possible), i finally got the proof of ownership of multiple accounts and names of a few accounts without proof of ownership.

The fact that they were initially discussing an account that was not even available indicates that there was an "invitation to treat" rather than an offer.

"...an expression of willingness to negotiate. A person making an invitation to treat does not intend to be bound as soon as it is accepted by the person to whom the statement is addressed.




2)
Rueduciel offered me J Gambler.But he did not send me a proof for ownership because he noticed that this account already is reserved for some other buyer.
Therefore he proposed me the account fitty, which he proved that he indeed has control over this account via a PM.

But now i really wanted to also have his first account (J Gambler) to be flagged too. I asked him whether i can have this account if i additionally pay 50$ on top (not like 400$ aren't enough already).
He agreed.

Unfortunately i made a big mistake by leaving him a negative trust rating BEFORE contacting, paired with my sense of humor regarding the chosen username, which interfered my plan. He came to the conclusion that my alt (alice321) is related to me (bob123).

This is possibly a bit closer to a potential contract.

In my view the "buyer" made a "request for information" (invitation to treat) where consideration was discussed rather than an offer.

Quote
I asked him whether i can have this account if i additionally pay 50$ on top (not like 400$ aren't enough already).

I consider this a “invitations to treat”, “requests for information” or “statements of intention” rather than an offer.

Quote
He agreed.
(That the account was for sale for such an amount = Offer

However there is no information that indicates the "buyer" accepted the sellers offer.


For that to occur there would have to have been a statement like "if you accept $ for the account I will buy it" rather than "would you accept $ ?"


I do not agree that there was a contract. Also even if there was a contract I doubt that anyone would tag him for it.

To the OP I would have to ask whether the end result justifies the means.. It is treading into a grey area of ethics. The outcome is tiny for something that is an epidemic on this forum.

I'm not a fan of private sting operations. There are many other initiatives in place that in my view are much better suited at addressing the problem like permabans for plagiarized content by account farmers.

Please note that I find account buyers and sellers untrustworthy. But it is permitted (but discouraged) under the forum rules.




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