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Author Topic: If you don't like it, then leave.  (Read 5435 times)
ALPHA.
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November 12, 2011, 05:24:40 PM
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Hawker
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November 12, 2011, 06:31:03 PM
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Tragic.  Its almost as if there were essential things that every society needs and that wherever you have people, you have to contribute to these essentials.

Still, at least you can sit at home complaining about it instead of trying something silly like voting for a change.

ALPHA.
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November 12, 2011, 06:43:08 PM
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Tragic.  Its almost as if there were essential things that every society needs and that wherever you have people, you have to contribute to these essentials.

Still, at least you can sit at home complaining about it instead of trying something silly like voting for a change.

No, if you vote, you have no right to complain. The process you participated in put us in this mess in the first place.

Also, you missed the whole point of the comic.
Hawker
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November 12, 2011, 07:55:13 PM
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Tragic.  Its almost as if there were essential things that every society needs and that wherever you have people, you have to contribute to these essentials.

Still, at least you can sit at home complaining about it instead of trying something silly like voting for a change.

No, if you vote, you have no right to complain. The process you participated in put us in this mess in the first place.

Also, you missed the whole point of the comic.

You have the right to complain whether you vote or not.

The process that puts us "in this mess" is called birth.  Once you are born, you are a part of a society and you can't opt out any more than you can opt out of your skin colour.

I get the point but I've never been one of the "if you don't like it leave" crowd.  As I said, there are essentials every society needs and wherever you have people, you will have to pay towards these essentials.  I can see myself saying "if you don't like it leave" to a Syrian or a Nork but not to an American.

FredericBastiat
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November 12, 2011, 09:03:13 PM
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No, if you vote, you have no right to complain. The process you participated in put us in this mess in the first place.

Also, you missed the whole point of the comic.

Not entirely accurate. If you voted to misappropriate or expropriate the property of others (taxation, wealth distribution, welfare programs, debasing legal tender currencies), I still get to complain because you stole from me.

To wit, don't vote to take stuff that isn't yours. That's gangster behavior.

http://payb.tc/evo or
1F7venVKJa5CLw6qehjARkXBS55DU5YT59
Hawker
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November 12, 2011, 10:31:25 PM
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No, if you vote, you have no right to complain. The process you participated in put us in this mess in the first place.

Also, you missed the whole point of the comic.

Not entirely accurate. If you voted to misappropriate or expropriate the property of others (taxation, wealth distribution, welfare programs, debasing legal tender currencies), I still get to complain because you stole from me.

To wit, don't vote to take stuff that isn't yours. That's gangster behavior.

Exactly! 

evoorhees
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November 12, 2011, 11:32:29 PM
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Desert island. Two men, and one woman. Do the men have the right to vote away the woman's right to her body?  Do the men have the right to vote away the things the woman produces for herself? Do the men have the right to take her food, her shelter, or her privacy merely by simultaneously raising their hands?

Immoral actions are immoral, no matter the vote.
JeffK
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November 13, 2011, 12:51:54 AM
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America: love it or leave it Patriot thread hell yeah







JeffK
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November 13, 2011, 12:55:34 AM
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Why not just pretend you only earn your gross income minus taxes, then it never feels like anyone was taking anything from you because you never really had the money in the first place!
Hawker
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November 13, 2011, 09:12:03 AM
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Desert island. Two men, and one woman. Do the men have the right to vote away the woman's right to her body?  Do the men have the right to vote away the things the woman produces for herself? Do the men have the right to take her food, her shelter, or her privacy merely by simultaneously raising their hands?

Immoral actions are immoral, no matter the vote.

But if decisions need to be made, democracy is a better option than any alternative.  Your moral argument is most valuable in a democracy.

chickenado
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November 13, 2011, 05:41:19 PM
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Tragic.  Its almost as if there were essential things that every society needs and that wherever you have people, you have to contribute to these essentials.

Still, at least you can sit at home complaining about it instead of trying something silly like voting for a change.

Or you can try doing something that makes a fucking difference, like tax avoidance, aka dollar voting. (though if you want to do that legally it will most probably require leaving, at least for certain amount of days every year).

Voting doesn't create any contractual obligations whatsoever, neither for the voter nor for the politician.  That's why a vote is just about as worthless as a Don Juan's marriage proposal.
Hawker
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November 13, 2011, 05:58:24 PM
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Tragic.  Its almost as if there were essential things that every society needs and that wherever you have people, you have to contribute to these essentials.

Still, at least you can sit at home complaining about it instead of trying something silly like voting for a change.

Or you can try doing something that makes a fucking difference, like tax avoidance, aka dollar voting. (though if you want to do that legally it will most probably require leaving, at least for certain amount of days every year).

Voting doesn't create any contractual obligations whatsoever, neither for the voter nor for the politician.  That's why a vote is just about as worthless as a Don Juan's marriage proposal.

You know, the people who voted for Ralph Nadar and the leftie abstainers in 2000 all said the same thing.  No point in voting for Gore and all the pols are the same.

How do you think 8 years of GWB worked out for them?  Do you think lefties regard the war in Iraq and the tax cut for the rich as a price worth paying for their cynicism?

NghtRppr
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November 13, 2011, 06:34:21 PM
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Its almost as if there were essential things that every society needs and that wherever you have people, you have to contribute to these essentials.

If you want something, pay for it. Don't demand other people pay for it. That's just common sense.
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November 13, 2011, 06:41:44 PM
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Its almost as if there were essential things that every society needs and that wherever you have people, you have to contribute to these essentials.

If you want something, pay for it. Don't demand other people pay for it. That's just common sense.

If something requires ongoing maintenance, for example the coast guard, and if it is in the national interest, then it needs to be paid for by everyone and in small regular instalments called tax.

That's just common sense.

NghtRppr
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November 13, 2011, 06:44:17 PM
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Its almost as if there were essential things that every society needs and that wherever you have people, you have to contribute to these essentials.

If you want something, pay for it. Don't demand other people pay for it. That's just common sense.

If something requires ongoing maintenance, for example the coast guard, and if it is in the national interest, then it needs to be paid for by everyone and in small regular instalments called tax.

That's just common sense.

No, theft isn't common sense at all.
Hawker
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November 13, 2011, 06:49:47 PM
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Its almost as if there were essential things that every society needs and that wherever you have people, you have to contribute to these essentials.

If you want something, pay for it. Don't demand other people pay for it. That's just common sense.

If something requires ongoing maintenance, for example the coast guard, and if it is in the national interest, then it needs to be paid for by everyone and in small regular instalments called tax.

That's just common sense.

No, theft isn't common sense at all.

Neither is changing the subject.

NghtRppr
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November 13, 2011, 06:51:49 PM
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Its almost as if there were essential things that every society needs and that wherever you have people, you have to contribute to these essentials.

If you want something, pay for it. Don't demand other people pay for it. That's just common sense.

If something requires ongoing maintenance, for example the coast guard, and if it is in the national interest, then it needs to be paid for by everyone and in small regular instalments called tax.

That's just common sense.

No, theft isn't common sense at all.

Neither is changing the subject.

I didn't change the subject. Taxation is theft.
Hawker
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November 13, 2011, 06:59:25 PM
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Its almost as if there were essential things that every society needs and that wherever you have people, you have to contribute to these essentials.

If you want something, pay for it. Don't demand other people pay for it. That's just common sense.

If something requires ongoing maintenance, for example the coast guard, and if it is in the national interest, then it needs to be paid for by everyone and in small regular instalments called tax.

That's just common sense.

No, theft isn't common sense at all.

Neither is changing the subject.

I didn't change the subject. Taxation is theft.

Too lazy to make an intelligent argument?  Want to spout stupid slogans instead?  I can do the same. 

Libertarianism is escapism. 

chickenado
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November 13, 2011, 07:08:43 PM
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Its almost as if there were essential things that every society needs and that wherever you have people, you have to contribute to these essentials.

If you want something, pay for it. Don't demand other people pay for it. That's just common sense.

If something requires ongoing maintenance, for example the coast guard, and if it is in the national interest, then it needs to be paid for by everyone and in small regular instalments called tax.

That's just common sense.

Yes, public goods will be underproduced in the absence of government, BUT:

1.There is no objective way of measuring the "optimal" production of public goods.
2.There is no objective way of measuring to what extent something is a public good, as ALL goods are to some extent public.
3.Government is likely to take advantage of this and start to produce goods that it has no business producing, leading to excessive taxation.

Your coast guard example can be resolved with private insurance. Wanna be saved from your sailboat? Get insurance beforehand.  The advantage of this system is that you can choose a higher quality rescue team if you're willing to pay for it.  Presumably, there will also be a basic rescue package financed by charity.

This is exactly how it works for extreme mountaineers, by the way.  So why can't it work for sailors?

I'd rather have an underproduction of public goods than overtaxation.

But that's just me.
chickenado
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November 13, 2011, 07:13:00 PM
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Quote
Quote

I didn't change the subject. Taxation is theft.

Too lazy to make an intelligent argument?  Want to spout stupid slogans instead?  I can do the same.  

Libertarianism is escapism.  

Statism is Peter Pan Syndrome.

This is fun.
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