[IDEA] Physical Bitcoin Lotto Scratch Cards

[LoyceV]

First: the idea isn't mine:

I always thought it would be cool if we could get gambling scratch cards like the US loto has. I would only want to be gambling 0.1 mbtc but a physical card to scratch would be cool

But I like it enough to create a topic for it

I found several websites that offer Bitcoin Scratch Cards, but it's either online gambling, or only paper wallets that hide the private key under a scratch-off layer.

Physical Bitcoin Lotto Scratch Cards (let's call them PBLSC)
Now imagine the possibilities if a trustworthy person creates Physical Bitcoin Lotto Scratch Cards:

• This person has to be highly trusted (and his printing system too)
• A Lotto scratch card that doesn't expire: how cool is that? You can either scratch it now, or 20 years from now, and it will work just as well
• It needs a large number of scratch cards to be able to have larger prizes and reach a low printing cost per card
• This would be a very cool thing as a gift!
• Each PBLSC ticket could also act as a paper wallet: On one side, you'll find the Lotto, with a scratch-off private key, QR-code and the balance printed, and on the other side, you'll find a Bitcoin address (with QR-code) to fund the wallet/gift yourself, and a scratch-off private key (with QR-code). This makes it a paper wallet with a possible bonus amount.
• It can be used as a gift, and might become a collector's item
• It would of course need a very cool design, and someone (not me, it's out of my league) to create this.

Is this feasible?

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[ChiBitCTy]

I think this would be pretty fun as well ! I sure don't trust any of those companies out there for something like this, but a community member like polymerbit or ColdKey for ex. would likely have the resources to make something like this happen if they were interested. 

[Lutpin]

If you need input on the "scratch" part of this, wheelz1200 did use scratch cards for the bonus games on their Genesis Coin Releases.
They've also handled private keys (albeit unloaded) in the past, and the way Genesis Coins were distributed in "randomly" assorted boxes had a gambling aspect.

If I were to start a project like that, I'd have a chat with them

[JanEmil]

Fun idea. Gambling/Crypto/trust/history combined. Don't think I will risk it.

[yogg]

LOVE the idea !!

As presented right now, this would be feasible to us.
We can put our hands on some of the cards "scratch ink".
Just a bit of scratch ink, or the whole face, doesn't make a big difference to us.

The only tight spot I see here is distribution.

I guess we could produce them but would have to deliver the whole batch to someone who only then reships.

Having an intermediary sounds a suitable both to avoid conflict of interest risks (oh I send this card to this guy 'cause I like him and I know there's like A LOT on it) and legal issues as well.


What would be the total prize pool ?
How many cards in the first run ?
What would be the #1 prize ?


Let's think about it.
I won't be able to resell, but I can fund them so someone else resells.  

[LoyceV]

What would be the total prize pool ?
How many cards in the first run ?
What would be the #1 prize ?

These are all good questions, but I can't answer any of them. It will depend on how many people are interested, printing cost per ticket, and the "house edge" (if there is any).
With 10 tickets, there's not much to win. With a million tickets, there could be a $100,000 prize (say 10 BTC) and many smaller prizes. Somewhere in between is probably a realistic number.

There's a "risk" though: if lottery addresses are public, blockchain analysis can reveal whether or not a large prize has been redeemed or not, which can influence the value of the remaining tickets.

[El duderino_]

Now imagine the possibilities if a trustworthy person creates Physical Bitcoin Lotto Scratch Cards:

This person has to be highly trusted (and his printing system too)

So that sounds like someone as MJ should be involved

[yogg]

What would be the total prize pool ?
How many cards in the first run ?
What would be the #1 prize ?

These are all good questions, but I can't answer any of them. It will depend on how many people are interested, printing cost per ticket, and the "house edge" (if there is any).
With 10 tickets, there's not much to win. With a million tickets, there could be a $100,000 prize (say 10 BTC) and many smaller prizes. Somewhere in between is probably a realistic number.

There's a "risk" though: if lottery addresses are public, blockchain analysis can reveal whether or not a large prize has been redeemed or not, which can influence the value of the remaining tickets.

There are ways to circumvent this blockchain analysis risk by not displaying publicly the lottery addresses.
As keys are not derived from a seed, they shouldn't be any way to deduct them.

What would you think of a run of 100 0.005BTC scratch cards ?
(The proportions would be the same in the event of a lower denomination card)

0.002BTC would go for the card maker, so 0.003BTC left.
For a run of 100 cards, that'd make it 0.3BTC as the prize pool.

We could make 2x 0.05BTC prize, 10x 0.01BTC prize, and 20x0.005BTC prize (basically won no BTC but a collectible card)
In the end, there would be 32 "winning" cards.

1:50 chance to win 0.05BTC
1:10 chance to win 0.01BTC
1:5 chance to win 0.005BTC


If you don't like the entry price of 0.005BTC, this can be changed.
However our production costs are very hardly compressible.


By the way I have checked, and the scratch ink is not available to us for now.
Could we do that with holograms ?

[LoyceV]

I think 0.002 BTC production cost is far too high for this to really take off. That's okay for a collectible, but too much for a Lotto to really take off.

This website that I randomly picked from Google offers "US $ 0.03-0.1 / Piece" for 500 pieces or more.

our production costs are very hardly compressible.

Maybe some day a big Lotto company will start making those for Bitcoin. I'm thinking of a $2 scratch card that you buy at a gas station with a chance to win $75000. That's obviously only possible with very large numbers and very cheap production.

[yogg]

I think 0.002 BTC production cost is far too high for this to really take off. That's okay for a collectible, but too much for a Lotto to really take off.

This website that I randomly picked from Google offers "US $ 0.03-0.1 / Piece" for 500 pieces or more.

our production costs are very hardly compressible.

Maybe some day a big Lotto company will start making those for Bitcoin. I'm thinking of a $2 scratch card that you buy at a gas station with a chance to win $75000. That's obviously only possible with very large numbers and very cheap production.

0.002BTC as a production cost is a bit high, I agree.
Maybe for a run that's more than 100 cards, we can work something out.

Or we can use the cards that split in three parts, hence dividing the price of 1 "scratch card" per 3.

Yes, but in the case of a $2 scratch card that you can buy anywhere, it is often a huge entity behind it that guarantees to pay out for the prize.
They do all their printing internally as well. (Please check this video at this timestamp : https://youtu.be/eBAvjx7bYM4?t=1381
(1,5 billion scratch cards per year)

I wouldn't trust any third party with sensitive info like private keys, or "redeem codes" that give access to funds (such as prypto).
These informations have to be on the scratch card in some way.

Question to LoyceV :
If you want to sell these at gas stations, how do you figure out the price of the crypto scratch card in fiat ($$$) ?

[LoyceV]

I wouldn't trust any third party with sensitive info like private keys, or "redeem codes" that give access to funds (such as prypto).
These informations have to be on the scratch card in some way.

This works both ways: if the customer claims the funds were taken already when he scratched the cards, the company can't prove the customer himself did it. And the company would have to trust his employees, it could end up being an employee's word against a customer's word, without either one of them being able to prove anything. That won't work, unfortunately

If you want to sell these at gas stations, how do you figure out the price of the crypto scratch card in fiat ($$$) ?

Again: good question, and again: I can't answer it
It could be based on the Bitcoin price at the moment it's bought. Or pay in Bitcoin, that solves it

"Scratch off stickers" are commercially available at low cost, but I'm not sure how easy they would be to replace to sell a worthless ticket as unused.

[ChiBitCTy]

Bump

This is probably a tough sell atm with the recent and ongoing Prypto scam case.

I’m curios.. have you played online crypto scratch card games? I recently came across a website that had a long list of online scratch card vendors/websites. It seems that these are sold as an online only digital product. I was trying to see if any vendors sold actual physical cards. It’s certainly an interesting idea, and I think it would be fun and I sure as shit don’t trust those online vendors, but a difficult sell here atm.

However if a reputable vendor showed up here with 100 cards ready to sell at a very fair price and sold almost exclusively to members here (so everyone is actually seeing people win)..they’d probably sell. I also think to make this happen you’d likely need to bankroll the project upfront in whole (I could be wrong). Just my 2.

Edit - I was basing this all off our prior conversations and did not see your most recent convos with Yogg until after posting and it looks like you’ve got more in mind than what I proposed. Will read further and reach out to ya shortly.

[Flying Hellfish]

Maybe some day a big Lotto company

No idea what it's like in the EU but in North America the Lotto is a government controlled monopoly.  Private lotteries are not legal otherwise the mob wouldn't have to run "numbers rackets"!

The idea of a low key scratch off lotto under the table is in theory doable (see mafia example) but seeing private BTC scratch off tickets isn't happening!  Until the Gov decides to offer them they won't be in the wild in any significant size.

[philipma1957]

Maybe some day a big Lotto company

No idea what it's like in the EU but in North America the Lotto is a government controlled monopoly.  Private lotteries are not legal otherwise the mob wouldn't have to run "numbers rackets"!

The idea of a low key scratch off lotto under the table is in theory doable (see mafia example) but seeing private BTC scratch off tickets isn't happening!  Until the Gov decides to offer them they won't be in the wild in any significant size.

yeah selling them in the USA would be a crime. Even more complex are state laws.  Ie  I buy one from you you are in NY  I am in in NJ

Second crime committed as you shipped it from one state to another.

  I know the state laws do not allow crossover of tickets as I had a friend buy a 1 year mailed subscription from New York State Lottery to be mailed to his home  in New Jersey.  NYS sold it to him and 3 months in contacted him that they would not sell a new 1 year lottery to him as it was across state lines.

USA has crazy state laws.  Age of consent in NJ is 18 in NY is 17.

  So if you are getting a handi from your 17 year old girl friend  while  crossing the Hudson River on the  George Washington Bridge  you turn into a pedphile as defined by NJ law as soon as you pass the midway point of the bridge  which is where the borderline is bewteen the 2 states.

[FFrankie]

Maybe some day a big Lotto company

No idea what it's like in the EU but in North America the Lotto is a government controlled monopoly.  Private lotteries are not legal otherwise the mob wouldn't have to run "numbers rackets"!

The idea of a low key scratch off lotto under the table is in theory doable (see mafia example) but seeing private BTC scratch off tickets isn't happening!  Until the Gov decides to offer them they won't be in the wild in any significant size.

yeah selling them in the USA would be a crime. Even more complex are state laws.  Ie  I buy one from you you are in NY  I am in in NJ

Second crime committed as you shipped it from one state to another.

  I know the state laws do not allow crossover of tickets as I had a friend buy a 1 year mailed subscription from New York State Lottery to be mailed to his home  in New Jersey.  NYS sold it to him and 3 months in contacted him that they would not sell a new 1 year lottery to him as it was across state lines.

USA has crazy state laws.  Age of consent in NJ is 18 in NY is 17.

  So if you are getting a handi from your 17 year old girl friend  while  crossing the Hudson River on the  George Washington Bridge  you turn into a pedphile as defined by NJ law as soon as you pass the midway point of the bridge  which is where the borderline is bewteen the 2 states.

Not true your wrong about some things

[LoyceV]

This is probably a tough sell atm with the recent and ongoing Prypto scam case.

That's different: people didn't control their private keys.
The main problem with a scratch card would be having to trust the creator.

I’m curios.. have you played online crypto scratch card games?

No. To me that's nothing more than a nice looking random number generator, so I can just as well play dice.

No idea what it's like in the EU but in North America the Lotto is a government controlled monopoly.  Private lotteries are not legal otherwise the mob wouldn't have to run "numbers rackets"!

In the EU it probably varies per country. I guess this will have to wait until a large company wants to add Bitcoin games to their existing scratch cards.

[LoyceV]

2 year bump

[Evilish]

That sounds like a fun idea. LoyceV I think you have got merit on your own to create something like this. You might lack the skills, but that's what collaborations are for. Perhaps find someone who is experienced with creating paper wallets (someone like Polymerbit) and run your idea by them. And have someone trusted like minerjones determine the winners randomly and fund the winning tickets.

You could create like a thousand tickets, each costing 1 mBTC. That would give you a prize pool of 1 BTC, could be even greater if you could partner with one of the large gambling websites here on Bitcointalk.

I am not sure how legal creating your own scratch cards without a license is so you might wanna do your research on that.