Peter Schiff debate. Gold >> Bitcoin

[DrBitcoin]

I’ve been into bitcoin since 2014. I’m a true believer. But Peter Schiff has some good points on the Crypto Trader debate from yesterday.

The main thing that really stuck in my mind was that gold has value outside of simply being a store of value. It can be used for jewelry, machines, etc. so because it has real world value, no matter what, it will have value. Someone will always need to pay $ for gold to use it for jewelry or computers.

Bitcoin on the other hand seems to only derive its value from what one person is willing to pay another for it. If one day the heard flocks to another crypto (“flippening”) bitcoin doesn’t have any other use case and could be worth $0. You can’t make jewelry or computer parts with it.

I have to say...I don’t think Anthony Pampliano properly defended this point. Maybe someone can help I convince me that this was a good point??

https://youtu.be/Wigz8z6Vm3U

[BitHodler]

I watched it on Ran's youtube channel and it was as expected, Peter is not willing to accept any argument as to why there is value in Bitcoin. He keeps saying that it isn't a store of value because there is no value to store.

His definition of value is that you can't use Bitcoin for anything outside what people currently use it for. Gold can be used for the production of jewelry, medical equipment, mobile phones, etc.

I wonder if he purposely ignores the point that the actual use outside speculation and store of value is just a fraction of where the demand for the metal comes from. It's not going to improve but only get worse.

[DrBitcoin]

I watched it on Ran's youtube channel and it was as expected, Peter is not willing to accept any argument as to why there is value in Bitcoin. He keeps saying that it isn't a store of value because there is no value to store.

His definition of value is that you can't use Bitcoin for anything outside what people currently use it for. Gold can be used for the production of jewelry, medical equipment, mobile phones, etc.

I wonder if he purposely ignores the point that the actual use outside speculation and store of value is just a fraction of where the demand for the metal comes from. It's not going to improve but only get worse.

I don’t know, I kind of found his argument convincing. I also sort of realized that the “artificial scarcity” is just that. Artificial. Bitcoin is capped at 21million, but it can essentially be cloned. You won’t have the network effect, but it is technically more of the same thing.

People are really hard on Peter, and I get it. We love bitcoin!! But idk, I kind of see his point.

[bkbirge]

The value is the network, the triple ledger system. Bitcoin is a reflection of the value of maintaining that extremely and increasingly important infrastructure.

The argument for gold is nearsighted. Gold can be used for other things than money true, but would it be? It's value is high almost solely because of its use as a store of value, not because it can be used in computers or for custom jewelry. If the store of value disappeared and you were left with industrial gold use and custom jewelry the fiat value of gold exchange would plummet. Those use cases alone don't come near to supporting the current valuations.

[DrBitcoin]

The value is the network, the triple ledger system. Bitcoin is a reflection of the value of maintaining that extremely and increasingly important infrastructure.

The argument for gold is nearsighted. Gold can be used for other things than money true, but would it be? It's value is high almost solely because of its use as a store of value, not because it can be used in computers or for custom jewelry. If the store of value disappeared and you were left with industrial gold use and custom jewelry the fiat value of gold exchange would plummet. Those use cases alone don't come near to supporting the current valuations.

Forget the technology’s or scarcity, those can be cloned.
You are saying the value is derived from the “Network effect.”  Like, a lot of people use bitcoin, so the hashrate is high, so the security is high?

Would you equate that to something like Facebook? If the network effect disappears, there is no value in the service. The network effect keeps people on Facebook and those their crazy valuation.

[franky1]

bitcoin dos have more value than just what people price it at.
bitcoin has a purpose/function. which is where put against other coins that are NOT accepted by merchants makes bitcoin more valuable.
also the acquisition cost of bitcoin (mining) which adds value to it, is more expensive than other coins(pos)
EG if gold could be acquired by anyone with a kitchen spoon and a coffee filter in their own back yard, gold would sell for $1 not $1k

the difference between gold and bitcoin is the function/purpose. they both have it, but bitcoin has a risk of being replaced far more than gold.
gold features are unique to gold, yet bitcoins features can be emulated

that said companies and products can b emulated too, yet stocks and shares have been good investments

[serveritaly]

bitcoin value come from understanding very deep;y the t3ch, every economist will say you that bitcoin have to much value in it;;

1. bitcoin is peer to peer without middle man , this is one of the things which make bitcoin/crypto so much valuable!
2. bitcoin/crypto is store of value + cash in the same time, compare to gold which is only store of value and always needed to convert to some other value which accepted everywhere to buy whatever you want, you get the point, hence the selling rate of gold only will grow with the time, the sellijg rate of crypto selling rate slowly will fall because it will accepted everywhere.
3. to store bitcoin its much more easy compare to gold and diamonds and other expansive shit.
4. the supply of crypto is much more smaller then gold and diamonds.
5. bitcoin compete market of more then 30 trillion dollars.
6. gold have value because people agree on this together, but look on crypto its not only about a agreement! its advanced our planet!!

there is more
 

copy pasted from reddit

source

[bkbirge]

The value is the network, the triple ledger system. Bitcoin is a reflection of the value of maintaining that extremely and increasingly important infrastructure.

The argument for gold is nearsighted. Gold can be used for other things than money true, but would it be? It's value is high almost solely because of its use as a store of value, not because it can be used in computers or for custom jewelry. If the store of value disappeared and you were left with industrial gold use and custom jewelry the fiat value of gold exchange would plummet. Those use cases alone don't come near to supporting the current valuations.

Forget the technology’s or scarcity, those can be cloned.
You are saying the value is derived from the “Network effect.”  Like, a lot of people use bitcoin, so the hashrate is high, so the security is high?

Would you equate that to something like Facebook? If the network effect disappears, there is no value in the service. The network effect keeps people on Facebook and those their crazy valuation.

To a point yes, the value is derived from the network effect but the value is not solely the network effect. The value, the use case, is that it is a public trustless open triple ledger system. Without the network effect there is no security true but the intrinsic value of the ledger is still there. In other words the technology of the blockchain is itself of value. Without adoption of course then that value is miniscule but I wouldn't say the value derives only from the network effect.

I think with something like Facebook (not Libra) all you have is the network effect. Because the product they are selling is member information.

[TimeBits]

I still would destroy both of these guys in a debate about time/duration being better than bitcoin, gold and fiat combined.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7TLFyK_3Pk Limited supplies lead to death, gold and bitcoin will lead to murders and already does today, it will only get worse.
Fiat leads to wars.

Time/Duration will free us and stop most murders and wars.

[chaoscoinz]

I’ve been into bitcoin since 2014. I’m a true believer. But Peter Schiff has some good points on the Crypto Trader debate from yesterday.

The main thing that really stuck in my mind was that gold has value outside of simply being a store of value. It can be used for jewelry, machines, etc. so because it has real world value, no matter what, it will have value. Someone will always need to pay $ for gold to use it for jewelry or computers.

Bitcoin on the other hand seems to only derive its value from what one person is willing to pay another for it. If one day the heard flocks to another crypto (“flippening”) bitcoin doesn’t have any other use case and could be worth $0. You can’t make jewelry or computer parts with it.

I have to say...I don’t think Anthony Pampliano properly defended this point. Maybe someone can help I convince me that this was a good point??

https://youtu.be/Wigz8z6Vm3U

He strikes a hard bargain, a very convincing argument, but he fails to hit his mark. Gold indeed is quite "tangible", it's use cases are numerous. In this case, the use case can be considered as "utility". In order for Bitcoin to work, takes a big cooperated effort, and several functionalities to derive its intrinsic value. It would fall flat on its face if not for the clever consensus of "Mining", which incentivizes the efforts of network participants, something easily agreed upon (consensus). Without a risk/reward system, not only value but interest would be easily lost.
   
 "Scarcity", "Supply & Demand", and "Utility" is what gives Bitcoin its natural intrinsic value. The rest is hearsay...

Just my two cents  

[Saltius]

Sth having real world use means it has physical form which makes it an esaily confiscated target.

[YuginKadoya]

I don't really think that there should be an argument about this even though Peter Schiff has a point about the precious metal gold it is a good thing that there is something like this that has a physical matter that you can surely say you will have a ton of money with it someday but comparing it to Bitcoin was very illogical because gold and bitcoin is separate and very different from each other, I really get what Schiff was trying to say here but I guess Anthony Pompliano didn't need to defend bitcoin if a person is very negative about it then what is the point in debating it, If that person is not very open to this kind of technology, The same goes to other people in your family, friends, and loved ones that don't really get what you are explaining when they don't really see it physically, And because Gold even in ancient times are here and many people are pretty familiar with it and they could really see it, So, in my opinion, both assets can make you earn depending on your knowledge about it.

[zviadits]

Need to think more deeply. Bitcoin value consists of several points. 1) Honestly talking Blockchain has real value because thanks to its digital registry it provides transparency and privacy.
But there are hundreds of cryptocurrencies based on Blockchain, why is Bitcoin exactly the digital gold? The answer is simple: 2) Bitcoin is independent, its creator is hidden and no one can manipulate the coin. The real value is in trust, that is why Bitcoin is so popular.

[oleg681010]

Gold will always be valuable and over the years its value will only increase. What will happen to bitcoin is still unknown. So for now, gold > bitcoin

[whyrqa-1]

I can not understand why many cryptocurrency users raise this topic and try to improve the position of bitcoin in relation to gold.  These are two different assets that are fundamentally different from each other in their capabilities and the real future.  In any case, it’s good to have both bitcoin and gold, if it's hard to make a choice.

[soonitcome]

Gold will always be valuable and over the years its value will only increase. What will happen to bitcoin is still unknown. So for now, gold > bitcoin

no true from economical point of view...

user serveritaly copy pasted if from reddit, posted by one of the smartest people on reddit which is no more active over there

bitcoin value come from understanding very deep;y the t3ch, every economist will say you that bitcoin have to much value in it;;

1. bitcoin is peer to peer without middle man , this is one of the things which make bitcoin/crypto so much valuable!
2. bitcoin/crypto is store of value + cash in the same time, compare to gold which is only store of value and always needed to convert to some other value which accepted everywhere to buy whatever you want, you get the point, hence the selling rate of gold only will grow with the time, the sellijg rate of crypto selling rate slowly will fall because it will accepted everywhere.
3. to store bitcoin its much more easy compare to gold and diamonds and other expansive shit.
4. the supply of crypto is much more smaller then gold and diamonds.
5. bitcoin compete market of more then 30 trillion dollars.
6. gold have value because people agree on this together, but look on crypto its not only about a agreement! its advanced our planet!!

[figmentofmyass]

The main thing that really stuck in my mind was that gold has value outside of simply being a store of value. It can be used for jewelry, machines, etc. so because it has real world value, no matter what, it will have value. Someone will always need to pay $ for gold to use it for jewelry or computers.

jewelry is effectively part of the store-of-value application. if gold didn't have value as money, nobody would want it for jewelry (just like nobody wants brass jewelry now).

the medical/industrial applications amount to what, 10% of the market? the vast majority of gold just sits in vaults/safes. if people lost their faith in gold as a store-of-value, that's 90% of the supply ready to be dumped back onto the market. it would always have some value, but so do aluminum, steel, and copper.

[TheCoinGrabber]

The main thing that really stuck in my mind was that gold has value outside of simply being a store of value. It can be used for jewelry, machines, etc. so because it has real world value, no matter what, it will have value. Someone will always need to pay $ for gold to use it for jewelry or computers.

Gold's value would still depend on what people think it costs so it's in a similar situation like bitcoin. The thing about buying gold jewelry as investment is that the cost of the piece is usually much higher than the cost of the metal used in it.

The "flippening" mentioned is a valid concern and imo the main risk with investing in crypto.

If the situation got so bad that cryptos become unusable, metals are also likely gonna be useless too. You can't eat either. Gonna stock up all that honey and vodka  .

[joe50]

many people are still scared to btc

[jostorres]

I watched the debate also and they all have vital point, the mistake of bitcoin and gold just lies with people who always thing that bitcoin could replace everything and I fee maybe it is because it’s lack of knowledge of the whole cryptocurrency, what satoshi said in abstract is that it can be used as store of value also but never said it will replace gold, so what is the point comparing both.

When it comes to technology and economy, one single factor cannot drive bot, it take several parts to come together for every of these system to function properly well. I heard the funniest thing of my life this morning when someone claims that blockchain can be used to stop killing, and I wonder how that can be possible. It is exactly what anyone thinking bitcoin could replace gold. Bitcoin as a different technology and has been so functioning well, while gold to also has its own.