Will Bitcoin mixers be considered illegal by worldwide governments?

[Ryan Dugan]

I am sure the governments of the world have better things to do? What exactly will they get out of this?

We all know out of all the countries to bitch about something USA will be first. They have the most deaths by gunshot then any other country in the world and you can legally carry an automatic rifle in some states. Now money laundery is the problem.          It actually amuses me.

I think people should be free and I am pretty damn liberal. Places like Chipmixer I support because they are still around even after other places were shut down and all these exchanges and other legal stuff. They don't even care they just do what they please and "antigoverment" they are a tool of decentralization in a world where the god damn governments and "legal authorities" are constantly trying to constrain us with their endless bs and greed. For me it's like a tool that supports ultimate liberation.

[1715662358]

1715662358

[1715662358]

1715662358

[1715662358]

1715662358

[veleten]

I'm pretty sure a good part of the mixers are run by the governmental agencies
this way it is easier to monitor potential criminal transactions and if they missed an opportunity to set up or at least sponsor several mixers
means they are doing a bad job 

I kinda get the idea behind that thinking, but has there been any evidence that lead you to being so sure that governments are running mixing services?

I'm not sure how they can pull something off like that, because that would mean they are financing the activities they are trying to combat, and that's an illegal act by itself. On top of that, if anyone is caught like that, the news of that will spread like wildfire and make trustless mixing become the new primary source to have coins mixed. In other words, they will shoot themselves in the foot.

I think it makes more sense to just continue their current plan of approach, which seems relatively effective given how they have forced a few mixers offline already. It's a game of patience in the end. They need all the time they have to build a case against each entity they're chasing after.

obviously this is just my IMHO , I have no evidence
from the point of view of an operative  , it is a very logical thing to do - infiltrate or even run a mixer
as for shooting themselves in the foot , those who control mass media control the minds
have you heard of any public unrest because of the news that governmental agencies sponsor drug traffic to have a source of "black cash" for ops , even have their own countries dedicated solely to cultivating drugs , like Afghanistan?
any news like that are not news unless they are on the news , forgive me the tautology
nowadays we are living in an artificially created socium where  independent media is a myth and stereotypes are implanted through movies , shows , tv and internet
do not overestimate the anonymity or "independence " of the mixing services , if you run such a business and men in black approach you and gently ask to cooperate if you notice something
fishy coming into your wallets , and keep it quiet , or else ... would you say no?

[squatter]

I'm pretty sure a good part of the mixers are run by the governmental agencies
this way it is easier to monitor potential criminal transactions and if they missed an opportunity to set up or at least sponsor several mixers
means they are doing a bad job 

I kinda get the idea behind that thinking, but has there been any evidence that lead you to being so sure that governments are running mixing services?

I'm not sure how they can pull something off like that, because that would mean they are financing the activities they are trying to combat, and that's an illegal act by itself.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were honeypots out there. Let's not forget that Bestmixer.io was shut down by the FIOD (Dutch police) and run from Europe -- much like Hansa. Remember what they did?

On June 20, 2017, German police arrested the administrators (two German men) and the Dutch police were able to take complete control of the site and to impersonate the administrators. Their plan, in coordination with the FBI, was to absorb users coming over from the upcoming AlphaBay shutdown. The following changes were made to the Hansa website to learn about careless users:

• All user passwords were recorded in plaintext (allowing police to log into other markets if users had re-used passwords).
• Vendors and buyers would communicate via PGP-encrypted messages. However, the website provided a PGP encryption convenience feature which the police modified to record a plaintext copy.
• The website's automatic photo metadata removal tool was modified to record metadata (such as geolocation) before being stripped off by the website.
• Police wiped the photo database, which enticed vendors to re-upload photos (now capturing metadata).
• Multisignature bitcoin transactions were sabotaged, which at shutdown would allow police to confiscate a larger amount of illicit funds.
• Police enticed users to download a Microsoft Excel file (disguised as a text file) that, when opened, would attempt to ping back to a police webserver and unmask the user's IP address.

This is what a Dutch police said about the operation:

'We thought maybe we could really damage the trust in this whole system.' -Marinus Boekelo, NHTCU

... Which I was eerily reminded of when I saw "YOU ARE NOT ANONYMOUS" courtesy of the Dutch police, plastered on the Bestmixer seizure notice. I really wouldn't put it past those sneaky bastards to run a honeypot.

For another thing, it's hard to ignore the sheer stupidity of the Bestmixer admin. Operating servers from Netherlands and Luxembourg in the year 2019? It really makes one wonder.

[1Referee]

I wouldn't be surprised if there were honeypots out there. Let's not forget that Bestmixer.io was shut down by the FIOD (Dutch police) and run from Europe -- much like Hansa.

I am aware of Bestmixer. It's however a mixer they have just sneaked into without actually providing any of their own coins to be withdrawn by the users of that mixer, which is more what I was referring to. Perhaps I was reading it a bit too far. In that sense yes, there may be certain still operational mixers where government agencies are filtering every bit of information without the actual operators even knowing.

For another thing, it's hard to ignore the sheer stupidity of the Bestmixer admin. Operating servers from Netherlands and Luxembourg in the year 2019? It really makes one wonder.

That was weird indeed, but at the same time it wouldn't really surprise me if the admin overestimated himself and underestimated the authorities. In the end, mixers will only find out that they messed up when they're caught and shut down. Only the unaffected mixers have time to adapt and relocate their servers and whatnot.

[Abiky]

it depends on which way will the global legislation turn
if it stays like today with each and every country deciding for itself wherever it recognizes bitcoin or bans it  bitcoin mixers will flourish
by the way , I'm pretty sure a good part of the mixers are run by the governmental agencies
this way it is easier to monitor potential criminal transactions and if they missed an opportunity to set up or at least sponsor several mixers
means they are doing a bad job   , don't wanna give them any ideas if they don't
but if bitcoin is adopted more and more and it becomes a handful to monitor
more than sure they would either ban or control the mixers

Exactly. Right now, crypto is in the grey area where there's regulatory uncertainty. Given that there isn't a law specifically against Bitcoin mixers, it's safe to assume that they're perfectly legal nowadays. In the event that governments decide to take action against these services, people will always find a way to obfuscate their Bitcoin transactions. This is thanks to the decentralized and open-source nature of crypto. Which is why, I believe that government's efforts against crypto will turn out to be in vain over time. As Bitcoin grows in user adoption, it'll become more difficult for governments to stop this movement.

With decentralized solutions such as non-custodial mixers (Wasabi, Samourai), decentralized exchanges (bisq), and even LN's atomic swaps, governments will have a hard time trying to stop each and every individual from using these means anytime soon. The more centralized mixing services are shut down by governments, the more decentralized alternatives will emerge. It's like a cat and mouse game. In the end, governments will have to allow Bitcoin to flourish or be left behind in the dust. Just my thoughts

[figmentofmyass]

Exactly. Right now, crypto is in the grey area where there's regulatory uncertainty. Given that there isn't a law specifically against Bitcoin mixers, it's safe to assume that they're perfectly legal nowadays.

sadly, FINCEN issued guidance a few months ago claiming that mixers have always fallen under bank secrecy act jurisdiction. this requires mixers to complete FINCEN registration as an MSB and to do ongoing suspicious transaction reporting! of course, no mixer has complied with these rules---that would be insane.

anyway, this suggests that bestmixer may not be the last mixer to be targeted by law enforcement. as i've said before though, these are run as hidden services with encrypted wallets and no connected bank accounts, likely from jurisdictions outside of uncle sam's reach. it would be very difficult to shut down a determined and honest mixer operator.

[Abiky]

sadly, FINCEN issued guidance a few months ago claiming that mixers have always fallen under bank secrecy act jurisdiction. this requires mixers to complete FINCEN registration as an MSB and to do ongoing suspicious transaction reporting! of course, no mixer has complied with these rules---that would be insane.

anyway, this suggests that bestmixer may not be the last mixer to be targeted by law enforcement. as i've said before though, these are run as hidden services with encrypted wallets and no connected bank accounts, likely from jurisdictions outside of uncle sam's reach. it would be very difficult to shut down a determined and honest mixer operator.

It's rather disappointing to see governments interfering with crypto's growth in every way. But it's to be expected since they want to control their citizens after all. The recent regulations by the US' FinCEN might not have a direct impact to mixing services which are geographically distributed worldwide (like decentralized mixing services). Which means that only centralized mixing services which have servers located in the US will be the ones mostly affected by these regulations. I doubt that the US would want to go against decentralized alternatives as well, since it's harder to enforce regulations on them.

Despite this, I believe that the impact against mixing services will be minimal since not many people are using them. Governments have managed to stop Bestmixer, but the BTC ecosystem remains likely the same. They may be wasting their time, as only a small fraction of people use mixing services to conduct their private transactions worldwide. The big players are privacy-oriented cryptocurrencies like Monero and Grin, but they're even harder to tackle with. Which is why, government's efforts against mixing services and other privacy solutions may tend to become in vain over the long term.

Nonetheless, I believe that the crypto ecosystem will adapt itself over time as people continue to build and improve upon it every step of the way. People will always find a way to gain access to privacy methods, no matter government's interventions against Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency known to date. In the end, decentralized solutions will prevail because of their true censorship-resistance. I look forward for the massive adoption of CashShuffle (for BCH), Wasabi and Samourai (for BTC) in order to bring liquidity for privacy-oriented transactions. Just my thoughts

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

Bitcoin mixers have a long history since they came into inception some time ago. They've been a viable alternative for people looking towards privacy within their Bitcoin transactions. While Bitcoin mixers are far from being perfect, they're still one of the best solutions for obfuscating transactions from third parties. The only concern would be that mixing services are centralized as they're provided by a middleman. In effect, this brings a single point of failure greatly defeating the purpose of privacy.

We've seen how Bestmixer got shut down by the authorities. They claim that Bestmixer encouraged money laundering activities which resulted in legal action. The truth is that Bitcoin mixers can be used for both good and bad things. Money laundering is mostly done with Fiat than with cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin or Ethereum. Still though, the perception of worldwide governments against mixers/tumblers seems to be different nowadays. Which makes me wonder whenever Bitcoin mixers will be considered illegal by such entities within the future?

If governments ban mixers/tumblers, then they could easily do the same to privacy-oriented cryptocurrencies like Monero and Grin. It's all a matter of power and control over people than anything else. What do you think about this?

Bitcoin mixer is very possible for money laundering. but for someone who wants privacy for the transaction this mixer is very useful. but of course the government does not want privacy of one's transactions. whether for the benefit of the government or to prevent dirty money that can escape the government track. but certainly this mixer is not in line with the government system.

[CODE200]

Bitcoin mixers have a long history since they came into inception some time ago. They've been a viable alternative for people looking towards privacy within their Bitcoin transactions. While Bitcoin mixers are far from being perfect, they're still one of the best solutions for obfuscating transactions from third parties. The only concern would be that mixing services are centralized as they're provided by a middleman. In effect, this brings a single point of failure greatly defeating the purpose of privacy.

We've seen how Bestmixer got shut down by the authorities. They claim that Bestmixer encouraged money laundering activities which resulted in legal action. The truth is that Bitcoin mixers can be used for both good and bad things. Money laundering is mostly done with Fiat than with cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin or Ethereum. Still though, the perception of worldwide governments against mixers/tumblers seems to be different nowadays. Which makes me wonder whenever Bitcoin mixers will be considered illegal by such entities within the future?

If governments ban mixers/tumblers, then they could easily do the same to privacy-oriented cryptocurrencies like Monero and Grin. It's all a matter of power and control over people than anything else. What do you think about this?

Bitcoin mixer is very possible for money laundering. but for someone who wants privacy for the transaction this mixer is very useful. but of course the government does not want privacy of one's transactions. whether for the benefit of the government or to prevent dirty money that can escape the government track. but certainly this mixer is not in line with the government system.

Bitcoin mixer's is still have a very effective use into every single cryptocurrency user, because it helps them to transfer their money anonymously. And also yes! it can be possibly use into money laundering, but I think simply using the bitcoin will make you anonymous, no need to use bitcoin mixer if you want to launder your money, they just want to close bitcoin mixer for their own good.

[abhinavsofttech007]

I am not sure but ya it will happens in future. The government of some countries will banned bitcoin mixers in their country to stop spam or fake.

[South Park]

I am sure the governments of the world have better things to do? What exactly will they get out of this?

We all know out of all the countries to bitch about something USA will be first. They have the most deaths by gunshot then any other country in the world and you can legally carry an automatic rifle in some states. Now money laundery is the problem.          It actually amuses me.

I think people should be free and I am pretty damn liberal. Places like Chipmixer I support because they are still around even after other places were shut down and all these exchanges and other legal stuff. They don't even care they just do what they please and "antigoverment" they are a tool of decentralization in a world where the god damn governments and "legal authorities" are constantly trying to constrain us with their endless bs and greed. For me it's like a tool that supports ultimate liberation.

You would think so but the truth is they understand very well what is at stake here, you want to have the freedom to do whatever you want with your money, and guess what? The governments do not want that, they want to know exactly what you're doing and when you are doing it, this is why governments around the world have been pushing for the eradication of cash and suddenly out of nowhere someone invented a digital version of cash, so it is understandable that they will do everything that they can to control it.

[Machine Funk]

I don't think so. It's not illegal to change my notes at the bank is it? It is not illegal to run a cash business right? The same things can be done without a mixer if you are referring to breaking the law. A mixer is not needed to break the law since someone with a cash business might not claim for tax. A mixer would be only to mix crypto and I still don't think that it would help with evading the law anymore then trading up notes with people.
You will still need to say how you are making money, you cannot just hide it and then thats fine. Authorities will ask where is your cash flow so you have to show then at least something. I'm no criminal but if I try think really hard about how to be one, I really don't see a mixer as being that attractive anyway.

[micher143]

It is indeed illegal for the government to know that there are mixers for bitcoin which is money laundering where the mixers remove any trace of that cryptocurrency like bitcoin. There is nothing new here to know that there are mixers since even with the fiat currency, there is also a process to clean your dirty money.

There is crime everywhere and I don't think they should close the bitcoin mixers because it helps man of bitcoin users to mix their coin and protect their identity. Bitcoin mixers is just one of the many ways to make a crime, I don't think they should close it.

[Thefrolly]

Bitcoin and other cryptocurrency transactions are already being perceived as illegal, and promotes illegal transactions like money laundering, and in fact, terrorism. Bitcoin mixers is only going to act as a further disadvantage to the industry, and will cause more raised eyes towards the industry. This might in turn cause the government to further their plans towards banning cryptocurrencies.

[mr3dds]

I don't like this mixer idea. It really does help in money laundry and all illegal stuff.
From my view, it should be illegal.

But, this isn't irrelevant. When some one want to take his money to laundry, he wouldn't care about the law enforcement. This existed before btc and mixers and will stay the same way.

[bitcoinst]

Unfortunately, regulation already forces some exchanges to delist anonymous coins, and large exchanges. This is alarming and suggests that all Bitcoin mixers will fall under the control of regulators. However, this is a cryptocurrency, probably mixers will exist no matter what. I think the stronger the regulators will press, the more active will be the development of this kind of mixers.
It is possible that in the future we will come to a crypto world in which everything will be completely centralized.

[bitbunnny]

I don't think that mixers will become illegal, at least not at a global level but they will definetely become more strict regulated. I guess that also depends on each country on an individual level and how are the previous experiences. The biggest threats for governments are illegal activities like money laundering or financing of terrorism so every service that offers possibilities to hide traces or identity will be strongly monitored.

[johnmason92]

The main purpose of BTC mixers is to maintain privacy. I think privacy is right that everybody has. For example, when someone is transfering a large amount to another person,
he may don't want the money to be traced to the original source. Also BTC provides decentralized payments, so it cannot be controled by the governments. Which leads to the most important question- Is BTC becoming centralized? I think that BTC mixers will stay legal because of the revolutionary idea of the BTC. Only the large corporations ,who are influencing the BTC ecosystem, are capable of forbidding the BTC mixers.

[Abiky]

Bitcoin mixer is very possible for money laundering. but for someone who wants privacy for the transaction this mixer is very useful. but of course the government does not want privacy of one's transactions. whether for the benefit of the government or to prevent dirty money that can escape the government track. but certainly this mixer is not in line with the government system.

Exactly. We could say that Bitcoin mixers are a double-edge sword. They can be used for both good and bad things. Mixers are useful for preserving one's privacy, or for laundering money. While criminals mostly use Fiat currency for money laundering, Bitcoin mixers can become attractive to them if prices stabilize across the market. Of course, the ends don't justify the means. I believe that if centralized mixers want to survive within the mainstream world, they would need to comply with government regulations worldwide. By implementing KYC/AML measures, centralized mixers could remain in the space for a long time. However, this would greatly defeat user's privacy as we know it.

As of now, Bitcoin mixers don't represent much of a threat to the government because they're not widely used within the mainstream world. Once they're used in mass, then expect for governments to take further action against these privacy services. Only then, decentralized solutions will survive as people adopt them for their own benefit. Decentralized mixing services would be completely censorship-resistant, making it harder for governments to take down anytime soon.

Nonetheless, as Blockchain and crypto expand their popularity within the mainstream world, governments will try their best to limit their growth (or stop them in their entirety) in any way possible. It will be up to the people, whenever they will continue to support these innovative technologies or not for the foreseeable future. Time will tell us if Bitcoin mixers are a failed idea or not. Just my opinion

[Woshib]

Well, in my opinion only people with shady business who will use a mixer, if you are working right why would you hide your traces? if you can answer this question * from where you got that money? * then you are clear to go, if not then your business is not that clean.
a mixer is a money-laundering machine.