Will Bitcoin mixers be considered illegal by worldwide governments?

[figmentofmyass]

That knee jerk phase is largely played out. Only complete know nothings wheel that out now.

The next phase is the sanitisation and relative integration into the existing order and that's where mixers are going to get a kicking. No regulator is going to say they're a good thing and money in general is getting ever more tightly controlled.

after the FATF rules become integrated into the law in some of the major countries, they'll start coming after mixers IMO. governments don't need to outright ban them, they just need to place AML/KYC regulations on them and start coming after those who don't comply. but i think there's a good chance enforcement efforts will never net any seizure of funds, so i'm interested to see how hard they actually come after them. playing cat and mouse with clearnet domains doesn't seem like a big deal, and assuming a given mixer isn't sloppy (or a honeypot), there isn't much else governments can do.

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[bryant.coleman]

Bitcoin is being demonized as a weapon of criminals and mafias by the mainstream media, despite the fact that less than 2% of the transactions are illegitimate (as per studies done by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology). With Bitcoin mixers, this proportion will be much higher. So we can expect an even more hostile reaction.

Not only media are hostile but I think that reason for that is ignorance, not necessary bad intention. People don't know enough about the Bitcoin and don't understand it. And people are afraid of unknown. Once you get bad reputation like Bitcoin did, that is hard to change although not impossible.
I think that will change for the better but it takes time and lot of education and positive promotion.

Some people hate Bitcoin because they are ignorant about it. Some others hate Bitcoin because they know too much about it. When I talk about the latter group of people, I mean the bankers and the politicians. They are knowledgeable about Bitcoin, but want to destroy it since it represents an existential threat for them. Their hatred doesn't come from ignorance about how cryptocurrency works.

The second group of people are responsible for most of the propaganda against Bitcoin, and this propaganda is directed at the first group of people. An example that comes to my mind right now is Jamie Dimon (the chairman and CEO of JPMorgan Chase). He crashed the Bitcoin exchange rates not once, but twice by calling it a ponzi scheme. And the last time I heard, this loser was involved in the scam-crypto XRP.

[AjithBtc]

Governments will always have an eye over the cryptocurrency usage until every country make it legal. When there is legal support for bitcoin and other cryptocurrency usage automatically people will begin to use it in a legitimate way fulfilling all the KYC norms. By that time the need for such mixing services to stay anonymous will also shrink. All this to take place in reality is really a difficult task, so when countries badge bitcoin as illegal surely the mixing services will also be cited illegal.

[mitchr4]

The act of using a mixing Bitcoin service is something that violates regulations in the use of Bitcoin. That is the same as faking and changing identities for personal gain to avoid rules. The government has the right to punish Bitcoin users who use the service in a country because it is illegal. But in the crypto world using mixing service is considered normal because it is the nature of Bitcoin itself, which is anonymous.

[leea-1334]

Bitcoin is being demonized as a weapon of criminals and mafias by the mainstream media, despite the fact that less than 2% of the transactions are illegitimate (as per studies done by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology). With Bitcoin mixers, this proportion will be much higher. So we can expect an even more hostile reaction.

Bitcoin mixers do not make this proportion even higher. It simply means 2% of those transactions are using Bitcoin mixers.

The hostile reaction is from those who think mixers help to hide those 2% of illegal transactions that's all.

But people should go after banks instead,,, they are the ones who knowingly help criminals launder money.

[gentlemand]

Bitcoin mixers do not make this proportion even higher. It simply means 2% of those transactions are using Bitcoin mixers.

The hostile reaction is from those who think mixers help to hide those 2% of illegal transactions that's all.

But people should go after banks instead,,, they are the ones who knowingly help criminals launder money.

I wouldn't have an issue mixing for pure privacy purposes but if I had a ton of smoking hot BTC I would not be comfortable sending it to an anonymous stranger to give it a rinse. They could be anyone and they're going to be able to follow me from then on. There's a freakish amount of trust involved in a transaction that needs the absolute minimum of it.

If I were serious about my crypto crime I'd be shopping elsewhere.

[atjiat]

Guys, I think that there is no reason to argue, because if we talk more seriously about the legalization of Bitcoin in the near future and the fight against crime or tax evasion that use cryptocurrency, then in any case Bitcoin mixers will be outlawed.  If we understand what it is, we should objectively evaluate the further use of Bitcoin mixers.

[Abiky]

Bitcoin is being demonized as a weapon of criminals and mafias by the mainstream media, despite the fact that less than 2% of the transactions are illegitimate (as per studies done by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology). With Bitcoin mixers, this proportion will be much higher. So we can expect an even more hostile reaction.

Unfortunately, that's the hard truth facing Bitcoin these days. The power of mainstream media is such, that anything said (either positive or negative) could greatly affect the perception of Bitcoin among people within the mainstream world. For a long time, Bitcoin has been given the reputation of being the cryptocurrency for criminals. We all know that's not truly the case, since there are more legitimate uses for Bitcoin than all the other way around it. But, worldwide governments don't seem to care much about this, since all they want is power and control over their citizens.

Bitcoin mixers are highly beneficial towards preserving one's privacy, but they serve as a target for governments within the mainstream world. Money laundering and other illegal activities are not the main reason why they want to take down these services so badly. They just want to avoid people from using mixers, in order to keep track of every single transaction made across the Blockchain and invade people's privacy. I believe that while centralized mixing services and exchanges will become a huge target from governments worldwide, decentralized alternatives would be the ideal solution to counterattack such efforts.

In the end, only CoinJoin-based wallets (like Wasabi and Samourai), decentralized mixers (like TumbleBit and CashShuffle (BCH)), and decentralized exchanges (like Bitshares and EtherDelta) will prevail as they become truly unstoppable from oppressive governments worldwide. Only then, people can achieve true financial freedom. Just my opinion

[LeGaulois]

@mitchr4

There is no regulation on how to use Bitcoin. And we don't need that. If someone thinks it needs then he can go back to the fiat system. I don't want to use cryptocurrencies to be patronized with what I do with. Mixing bitcoins and stealing a person's identity have nothing in common

@atjiat

HSBC is well-know bank to be used for illegal activities of all kind, what happened to it since all these years? Nothing, even better; if it was a country it would be the 5th richest.
They can outlaw Bitcoin, then what? It doesn't stop people to do whatever they want (legal or not)

[bryant.coleman]

Bitcoin is being demonized as a weapon of criminals and mafias by the mainstream media, despite the fact that less than 2% of the transactions are illegitimate (as per studies done by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology). With Bitcoin mixers, this proportion will be much higher. So we can expect an even more hostile reaction.

Bitcoin mixers do not make this proportion even higher. It simply means 2% of those transactions are using Bitcoin mixers.

The hostile reaction is from those who think mixers help to hide those 2% of illegal transactions that's all.

But people should go after banks instead,,, they are the ones who knowingly help criminals launder money.

If your post is even remotely true, then the governments have all the justifications they need to nuke the Bitcoin mixers. All they need to prove is that most of the coins from these mixers are going to the dark markets and money laundering schemes. As we have seen with the case of Bestmixer.io, when the government authorities come against you, there are hardly any options. IMO, if the mixers want to operate then they should move to TOR. That will make it difficult for the authorities to seize the domain and detain the owners (as happened with Bestmixer). And the case of Bestmixer was a bit unique, since the servers were located outside the United States.

[amishmanish]

Bitcoin is being demonized as a weapon of criminals and mafias by the mainstream media, despite the fact that less than 2% of the transactions are illegitimate (as per studies done by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology). With Bitcoin mixers, this proportion will be much higher. So we can expect an even more hostile reaction.

If it is the report by the company named Elliptic you are talking about, I don't think that 2% figure is to be taken seriously. In the report, they said 71% transactions were "unclasified", that is, they had no idea where to put them.

That knee jerk phase is largely played out. Only complete know nothings wheel that out now.

The next phase is the sanitisation and relative integration into the existing order and that's where mixers are going to get a kicking. No regulator is going to say they're a good thing and money in general is getting ever more tightly controlled.

If someone today proposed a publicly accessible system that guaranteed the questionable dollars you put in would emerge sparkling clean no questions asked, about 1000 ICBMs would rain down on it within an hour of opening.

What was acceptable in Bitcoinland when not enough other people gave a shit suddenly hits the wall when the rest of the world looks closer.

There are two sides to this. There are people who would say, with enough precaution, you can do what you want by making yourself anonymous, hiding behind VPN etc etc. Yet, time and again, haven't we seen that if enough time is spent by them, the authorities do get to even the most well hidden entities?

Then there are some who think that regulation are inevitable or even necessary for mass adoption.

This is probably going to be the biggest debate of this century as technologies like AI, Machine Learning, Genetic modification etc get perfected and it becomes imperative for us to consider the moral and ethical consequences of technology and unhindered privacy.

[ethereumhunter]

The governments can say that bitcoin mixers are illegal because they have the power to force bitcoin mixer to be closed by them. But I think some people still want to see the bitcoin mixers still running so they can mix their money with their services. I hope that they don't use bitcoin mixer to be used for any illegal things because that will make bitcoin name bad in public, and people only know that bitcoin is for illegal things. If that happens, then that will impact the adoption process in all countries.

[peter0425]

We are all here or freedom and that’s why we are decentralized what governments are doing now is interfering our rights to have privacy.two of the big mixing company has been seized recently and even how they provided proof still cryptonians think that this is their way of invading the crypto community.lets admit that there are some cases that mixing company has been used for some illegal activities but the truth is Also Banks has this same issues righ?But they are still existing now and nothing’s in closure happens to them.lets continue exercising our rights maybe sooner government will realize how solid crypto is and how beneficial not like what they want to out in others mind about the negativity

[SquallLeonhart]

Some people hate Bitcoin because they are ignorant about it. Some others hate Bitcoin because they know too much about it. When I talk about the latter group of people, I mean the bankers and the politicians. They are knowledgeable about Bitcoin, but want to destroy it since it represents an existential threat for them. Their hatred doesn't come from ignorance about how cryptocurrency works.

The second group of people are responsible for most of the propaganda against Bitcoin, and this propaganda is directed at the first group of people. An example that comes to my mind right now is Jamie Dimon (the chairman and CEO of JPMorgan Chase). He crashed the Bitcoin exchange rates not once, but twice by calling it a ponzi scheme. And the last time I heard, this loser was involved in the scam-crypto XRP.

Those are the people that are giving bitcoin bad name, and it is because of their silly game that they are playing that is making them to make such pronunciation not because they really hate bitcoin, if JP Morgan really hates cryptocurrency, why is he involved in xrp and why is he creating his own cryptocurrency too.

Sometimes when they make those FUD statement, they do that because they want to crash the price of bitcoin so that they can be able to manipulate investors and get them to sell into their hands at a higher rate, I believe that this people are also in group, they have a group that would create FUD news to buy at cheap rate while they have the other group that will great a positive news to cause a FOMO buy that will earn them profit and this is part of why government is keeping their eye on crypto.

[Thanasis]

When bitcoin mixer supports illegal activist then it will be considered as bannable offence and that is why bitcoin mixers were shut down recently but not all the mixers will be banned if they don't break any laws from governments but if still anyone want complete anonymous they have other coin than bitcoin and also mixing coins doesn't give 100% anonymity.

[figmentofmyass]

many people don't realize it yet, but this is all shaping up into a big battle for fungibility. we'll have the "whitelisted" tier of services who will be fully AML/CFT compliant, and then we'll have the non-complying tier of services who are crypto-only and don't enforce KYC. eventually the two may not mix very well. coinjoins becoming more common---especially with future fee incentives like schnorr sigs---will open a whole new can of worms too.

There are two sides to this. There are people who would say, with enough precaution, you can do what you want by making yourself anonymous, hiding behind VPN etc etc. Yet, time and again, haven't we seen that if enough time is spent by them, the authorities do get to even the most well hidden entities?

you're giving law enforcement agencies too much credit.

think about it. you hear about cases where people were arrested/convicted, services taken down. you don't hear about all the cases where the authorities hit nothing but dead ends and couldn't identify or arrest anyone.

[BitHodler]

I hope that they don't use bitcoin mixer to be used for any illegal things because that will make bitcoin name bad in public, and people only know that bitcoin is for illegal things. If that happens, then that will impact the adoption process in all countries.

I think you need to grow a thicker skin. Bitcoin has been labelled as the currency of the underworld for many years now, and it still has managed to grow out to become the worldwide phenomenon that it is today.

It's a weak argument no-coiners like to use against Bitcoin, but it doesn't work. Mixers have a perfectly valid legitimate use case, but this might be hard to fathom for people not respecting their own privacy.

If you don't think privacy is an asset on its own, then sure, you by default assume that other people fall in the same category as yourself. One day you will find out why mixers are important, but then your privacy might already be compromised.

[lixer]

Can’t really tell if these coin mixers are legal or illegal, but the purpose for bitcoin is to be pseudo-anonymous and that’s what these coin mixers are trying to accomplish, to make it more difficult to trace out. I know that most of them might be doing it for a good purpose, but some people are now using to accomplish their bad purposes.

Just like recently I saw news that the Binance hacker has moved about 4000+ bitcoin into a coin mixer so that they would be hard to trace. That’s one of the disadvantages, people would be using it for bad purposes.

Advantages of these coin mixers is that if you’re someone who is a huge investor and you don’t want hackers to target your wallet, you can move it into coin mixer and have it mixed with the giant pile of bitcoin so that people will find it difficult to trace. That way you wouldn’t be a target. But people continues to use it for their bad plans as well

[dimastegar]

Anonymity on the Bitcoin mixer platform makes it difficult for authorities to track down people who act as money launderers from hackers or corruptors. Of course the government cannot stay silent. There may be times when KYC is needed for large transactions as a solution to the anonymity problem for security.

[akeegan]

I have a feeling they will especially after BestMixer was seized by the Dutch Financial Intelligence and Investigation service.

CipherTrace issued an alert in December 2018 about BestMixer’s practice of “cryptodusting” users accounts as a means of foiling AML tracing technologies by “dusting” every address with money laundering funds, thereby soiling virtually every user’s reputation. This then created a chain reaction of Bitcoin Blender mixing service to shut down the next week.

I think mixing services are either going to voluntarily shut down or be shut down.