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August 14, 2019, 02:30:50 PM
 #21

I can only see better moderation made less spam posts particularly less spam threads on Bitcoin discussion so I said other boards also need that kind of moderation level.
You are correct in that, actually. While seeking out high-profile spammers, I found that Bitcoin Discussion has been flushed of the majority of the spam. The same can be said of SOME of Economics and Speculation. Strangely enough, Speculation is kind of better than Economics in terms of quality. You'll find more genuine discussion than the drab "Differences between an investor and common man!" and "Who is the richest person?" kind of threads.
The worst board is Altcoin discussion by far, with Economics and Trading Discussion are probably next in line.

Off-topic is still a creature to be tamed because uninteresting threads with uninteresting one-liners should be deleted, but uninteresting threads with interesting replies should be kept. The problem is when we have crappy threads like "What's your favorite movie?" and you can't find a single response that adds to anything. A simple answer->explanation would make the posts worth reading. Unfortunately, there are too many posts that just write down some random movie title and drop off. What's the point?
I don't really think economics is that bad, I post there rarely, and sometimes come across ok-ish discussions, topics by Hydrogen and O_e_l_e_o's arguments are really indepth and interesting to look into. Other than that, its usually a shitshow of people having ~0 knowledge in theoretical economics.

Speculation has surprisingly good discussions occasionally, but that's only because of those fucking magical Wall Observer thread-bastards, they strive hard for real.

I think the spam would be genuinely reduced if there's just like a little more mods or patrollers around than what there currently are.

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August 14, 2019, 02:39:32 PM
 #22

I don't really think economics is that bad, I post there rarely, and sometimes come across ok-ish discussions, topics by Hydrogen and O_e_l_e_o's arguments are really indepth and interesting to look into. Other than that, its usually a shitshow of people having ~0 knowledge in theoretical economics.
It's not that bad, but it still is quite bad. As opposed to the 99% spam threads in Altcoin Discussion, you have somewhere around 65-80% spam in that section. Trading Discussion is more or less the same in that regard. Speculation would be somewhere around 50%.

I think the spam would be genuinely reduced if there's just like a little more mods or patrollers around than what there currently are.
The natural enemy of the spammer, the elusive moderator.
It's what people do. People often use blanket statements to be more effective in the way their words are perceived. It's alright saying "there are good posts there but the majority of it is spam" when "Altcoin Discussion is a spam section" has a much more active, and aggressive way of saying it. It's all about impact. Obviously, there's some really good discussion in every section of this forum about various different things.
I don't like excusing things because of a minority of contradictory instances. There is an invisible "generally" prior all statements, including this one. I won't say that you can't find genuine threads, but they are always overtaken by spammers or slammed down three pages deep when all the spam threads bubble back up.

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August 14, 2019, 02:45:21 PM
 #23

Altcoin Discussion and Bitcoin Discussion are both spam sections because most of the topics are just repetitive. After creating a unique topic, it will have another version by next week and most of it doesn't have any complexity so people will try and give common replies even they lack the knowledge required to post on that specific topic.

As we can see, most of the sig spammers are posting in Altcoin Discussion than Bitcoin Discussion and many topics on it can be answerable by a normal person. We should be more intellectual on replying to threads because we're advanced and we are here in a big community that has a lot of information. It's such a disgrace if they're here for a long time and still making dumb posts. This is also the reason why some people choose Reddit to discuss some important topics because the statements are very considerable.

If you want to discuss topics while avoiding spam, then you could consider creating a self-moderated thread. You then have the power within that thread to delete any spam comments and keep the discussion focused and relevant. You could also consider helping out by reporting spam comments elsewhere to the moderators for deletion. You could also consider posting in the "Serious Discussion" board, but be aware that, as the names suggest, any trivial topics in that board are likely to be deleted.

Agree to this, you can avoid spam replies by making it in self-moderation.
But the real cause here are the sig-spammers, they're the one who makes shitposts on the abovementioned threads.

The only solution, for now, is to report them, moderation isn't quite effective if you really want to dissolve shitposting because they will just avoid those moderated topics and post to the other threads. Remember, they're sig spammers who will post everywhere just to complete their task and earn bounty, it's really hard to stop them.


 
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August 14, 2019, 02:51:03 PM
 #24

The only solution, for now, is to report them, moderation isn't quite effective if you really want to dissolve shitposting because they will just avoid those moderated topics and post to the other threads. Remember, they're sig spammers who will post everywhere just to complete their task and earn bounty, it's really hard to stop them.
Why not both?

Create self-moderated threads in order to propagate the board with real discussion.
Force spammers to be binned into useless threads or to start them and then now you have fish in a barrel.
Wipe the thread or wipe their posts: either way, you're lifting the board of its spam.

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August 14, 2019, 03:02:11 PM
Last edit: August 17, 2019, 11:11:40 AM by tranthidung
 #25

Posting in bitcoin discussion board require any rank criteria? I don't think so.
Beyond serious boards, everyone have rights to post anywhere else in the forum. I pointed out that if they don't get benefits from their posts (due to signature disabled in Discussion boards (bitcoin, altcoins), they will reduce their posting intensity in those boards. Just kind of posting reduction, there is no way to stop spammers spreading their spam around; if there is no Newbie Jails, or WhiteList procedures.
Quote
I can only see better moderation made less spam posts particularly less spam threads on Bitcoin discussion so I said other boards also need that kind of moderation level.
Users can make reports on spam posts they see in those boards, but honestly I don't think there are demands to have more moderators for those boards, that have been totally burried with spam. Serious users never or rarely visit those boards, so there are mostly spammers in those boards. Consequently, they do neither care what they write nor what others' written. Only posting, continuously.




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August 14, 2019, 06:11:22 PM
 #26

I have created this topic and have been watching the views here closely and i have come up with the following conclusions.

1- Almost all the boards contains major spam and altcoin discussion is the worst section (I do not agree to it to some extent because there is no other place to get info about altcoins)
2- Use Self Moderation threads if you want to create a new discussion / thread.
3- Merits & Report to Moderator feature etc are helping to reduce the spam but not fully address the problem


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August 14, 2019, 09:13:54 PM
 #27

Serious users never or rarely visit those boards, so there are mostly spammers in those boards.
It's a catch 22 situation. Serious users don't use those boards because they are filled with spam, and they are filled with spam because serious users aren't using them.

Until we increase our efforts to deal with the spammers, the quality of discussion in these boards will not improve. I agree with other members here who have suggested more mods and patrollers, but we also need more regular users reporting the spam. I would also like to see more bans of escalating length being handed out for spammers, and more topics being locked when they have run their course and before they turn in to spam mega threads.

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August 14, 2019, 09:16:46 PM
 #28

There are no spam sections but users who are create spam posts/topics. Even P&S society have some topics that have interesting discussions going on but users start with their personal attacks and keep taking the thread to 50+ pages and Speculation is the next where no predictions are made based on any logical analysis. Not to forget topics like the Wall Observer thread. People get most of their merits by posting images on that topic.

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August 15, 2019, 02:33:42 AM
 #29

Serious users never or rarely visit those boards, so there are mostly spammers in those boards.
It's a catch 22 situation. Serious users don't use those boards because they are filled with spam, and they are filled with spam because serious users aren't using them.

Until we increase our efforts to deal with the spammers, the quality of discussion in these boards will not improve. I agree with other members here who have suggested more mods and patrollers, but we also need more regular users reporting the spam. I would also like to see more bans of escalating length being handed out for spammers, and more topics being locked when they have run their course and before they turn in to spam mega threads.
Those boards are likely heaven for spammers. They are nearly safe in those boards.
I think more patrollers are enough, and forum might not need more moderators for those boards, that will result in additional burden on forum funds (to pay for more moderators). Moreover, those boards can be kept cleaner from community-led efforts through spam reports. To do this, forum should have something new (like long-considering report badges) in order to motivate users to do more spam reports.




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August 15, 2019, 02:55:47 AM
 #30

I think more patrollers are enough, and forum might not need more moderators for those boards, that will result in additional burden on forum funds (to pay for more moderators).
The forum currently has 1250 BTC in cold storage, plus an undisclosed amount in hot wallets. It also takes in around $500,000 a year on ad revenue. Forum funds are not a hurdle to employing more moderators.

Moreover, those boards can be kept cleaner from community-led efforts through spam reports. To do this, forum should have something new (like long-considering report badges) in order to motivate users to do more spam reports.
I agree with you here. Reporting is a thankless and often mind-numbing task. Some sort of recognition such as reporter badges or some other perk would be great. I also think it would be great to remove the 4 second cooldown for a small handful of regularly reporting users who would not abuse it. There is no point in making life more difficult for someone who wants to give up their time for nothing to report en masse.

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August 15, 2019, 03:08:09 AM
 #31

@tranthidung Some sections are only handled by global mods because there aren't any moderators assigned to it.

Patrollers can only handle Newbies & Brand new users (correct me if I'm wrong). There are tons of high post-count Sr. Members and above. So... moderators are needed.

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August 15, 2019, 08:37:48 AM
Merited by o_e_l_e_o (1)
 #32

Serious users never or rarely visit those boards, so there are mostly spammers in those boards.
It's a catch 22 situation. Serious users don't use those boards because they are filled with spam, and they are filled with spam because serious users aren't using them.

Until we increase our efforts to deal with the spammers, the quality of discussion in these boards will not improve. I agree with other members here who have suggested more mods and patrollers, but we also need more regular users reporting the spam. I would also like to see more bans of escalating length being handed out for spammers, and more topics being locked when they have run their course and before they turn in to spam mega threads.
Those boards are likely heaven for spammers. They are nearly safe in those boards.
I think more patrollers are enough, and forum might not need more moderators for those boards, that will result in additional burden on forum funds (to pay for more moderators). Moreover, those boards can be kept cleaner from community-led efforts through spam reports. To do this, forum should have something new (like long-considering report badges) in order to motivate users to do more spam reports.

I think we should probably have some dedicated 'sig spam' mods that deal with unsubstantial posts. There's just far too much of it for current staff to deal with and it dwarfs all the more important stuff. If we have two separate report buttons/queues like I suggested then those sig spam mods could just have access to that and handle all reports on spam so it frees up current staff to deal with the urgent things. As I've mentioned before I think we should also look at charging campaigns a fee to operate here or alt coins can pay a fee to have their own sub board and that money could be used to pay the sig spam mods as I don't think campaigns should be allowed to advertise for free here, especially when it's them that is causing 99% of the damage to the forum in the process.

I think more patrollers are enough, and forum might not need more moderators for those boards, that will result in additional burden on forum funds (to pay for more moderators).
The forum currently has 1250 BTC in cold storage, plus an undisclosed amount in hot wallets. It also takes in around $500,000 a year on ad revenue. Forum funds are not a hurdle to employing more moderators.


Maybe, but at the same time I don't think the forum should burn through money paying for an issue that is being caused by campaigns and they should be compensating the forum for money spent trying to clear it up. Either that or change how campaigns are allowed to operate here and the bad ones should be banished. Once they realise there's repercussions for their laziness and ineptitude they'll soon change their ways.

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August 15, 2019, 08:59:12 AM
Merited by Zedpastin (2), hilariousetc (1)
 #33

Maybe, but at the same time I don't think the forum should burn through money paying for an issue that is being caused by campaigns and they should be compensating the forum for money spent trying to clear it up. Either that or change how campaigns are allowed to operate here and the bad ones should be banished. Once they realise there's repercussions for their laziness and ineptitude they'll soon change their ways.
Agreed.

Look at what happened to the Yobit spammers when theymos stepped in. All signatures removed, Yobit signatures banned for 2 months, all spammers wearing the signature banned for 14 days. Yobit was contributing huge amounts of spam, and the problem with that campaign literally ceased overnight. I know we've had this conversation before (and I don't want it to seem like I'm blaming you in any way) but if we subjected all campaigns to the rules you have laid down here (Signature Campaign Guidelines), I firmly believe spam would drastically reduce. Once word starts spreading that signatures are removed and both users and campaigns are banned when their participants spam, campaigns would be forced to actually moderate themselves and monitor their participants, and spammers would be forced to actually write something useful or just give up altogether.

Without a clear statement of intent regarding this from theymos, plus some more mods who will focus on banning the offending campaigns, then it always feels like we are just swimming against the tide with spam.

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August 15, 2019, 10:04:42 AM
Last edit: August 17, 2019, 11:09:44 AM by tranthidung
Merited by hilariousetc (1)
 #34

As I've mentioned before I think we should also look at charging campaigns a fee to operate here or alt coins can pay a fee to have their own sub board and that money could be used to pay the sig spam mods as I don't think campaigns should be allowed to advertise for free here, especially when it's them that is causing 99% of the damage to the forum in the process.
Agreed. Forum should have new rule and requirements on mandatory fees to run campaigns, especially altcoins/ tokens. It is rarely to see good altcoins or tokens. Good means they actually not scam ones, and really developed by their team over long period enough, and have their usecases. Most of altcoins, ICO-based projects run here are scam ones, so yes, they partially damage forum reputation.
Quote
Maybe, but at the same time I don't think the forum should burn through money paying for an issue that is being caused by campaigns and they should be compensating the forum for money spent trying to clear it up. Either that or change how campaigns are allowed to operate here and the bad ones should be banished. Once they realise there's repercussions for their laziness and ineptitude they'll soon change their ways.
Those projects should pay for it. Why forum has to pay money to clear their shits, while they earn money from their shitshows in the forum?
Some projects hire professional managers to manage their campaigns/ bounties; they do readily to spend funds for their promotions. Not all of them are good projects, but at least they initially want to run their serious promotions in forum. For the rest, they create Newbie accounts, buy Coppermembership, or bug high-ranked accounts, then run their shit campaigns, zero cost but might bright huge returns back for them. It's unfair for forum and our community.




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August 15, 2019, 10:18:47 AM
Merited by Zedpastin (2), hilariousetc (1)
 #35

Agreed. Forum should have new rule and requirements on mandatory fees to run campaigns, especially altcoins/ tokens. It is rarely to see good altcoins or tokens. Good means they actually not scam ones, and really developed by their team over long period enough, and have their usecases. Most of altcoins, ICO-based projects run here are scam ones, so yes, they partially damage forum reputation.
Standardizing payouts is an interesting one. Although, I'm not sure how that would work considering that most altcoins are paying out with shares of their tokens which are generally worth next to nothing. I'd like to see altcoins required to pay either in Bitcoin or pay the forum to be able to run a signature campaign. Same goes for bounties, I believe they should be paying to advertise on the forum. The amount of issues that prop up from these sort of campaigns are probably the majority of reports we have. This has been discussed before, and as far as I remember theymos wasn't entirely against the idea, but would probably make a few changes to fit within his vision for the forum.

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August 15, 2019, 10:58:57 AM
Merited by hilariousetc (1)
 #36

Agreed. Forum should have new rule and requirements on mandatory fees to run campaigns, especially altcoins/ tokens. It is rarely to see good altcoins or tokens. Good means they actually not scam ones, and really developed by their team over long period enough, and have their usecases. Most of altcoins, ICO-based projects run here are scam ones, so yes, they partially damage forum reputation.
Standardizing payouts is an interesting one. Although, I'm not sure how that would work considering that most altcoins are paying out with shares of their tokens which are generally worth next to nothing.

I'm off the believe since the final decision making is mostly influenced by just one individual in the person of theymos (correct me if I'm wrong) that's why he's finding it difficult to implement the suggestion of making all signature campaign payment to be made in either Bitcoin or any altcoins with value (preferable Grin or ETH). The truth of the matter is these projects popping up every now and then would comply simply because it's the rules of the forum and this will bring about more professionalism to signature bounty. As a result reduce the spam level on these boards tagged spam baords.

Remember when the evil fees idea was implemented many felt it won't work but now, people are paying this fees just to get access to the forum even the success of buying the copper membership which many projects uses to give them the privilege to post images to make their project ANN more visible, is a good indication that this suggestion would work perfectly. These projects spent thousands of dollars for other advertisment platform, they do have the funds.

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August 15, 2019, 11:11:27 AM
Merited by Zedpastin (2)
 #37

I know we've had this conversation before (and I don't want it to seem like I'm blaming you in any way) but if we subjected all campaigns to the rules you have laid down here (Signature Campaign Guidelines), I firmly believe spam would drastically reduce. Once word starts spreading that signatures are removed and both users and campaigns are banned when their participants spam, campaigns would be forced to actually moderate themselves and monitor their participants, and spammers would be forced to actually write something useful or just give up altogether.



I also believe that, but only theymos can act on or enforce that, unless he gives the power to banish certain campaigns signatures to someone else. Luckily I don't think there's too many campaigns that are causing too much damage right now but there's probably a lot that are paying for mediocre posts. I don't pay that close attention to new ones and only really notice them when spam is everywhere so maybe I'm wrong.

Those projects should pay for it. Why forum has to pay money to clear their shits, while they earn money from their shitshows in the forum?
Some projects hire professional managers to manage their campaigns/ bounties; they do readily to spend funds for their promotions. Not all of them are good projects, but at least they initially want to run their serious promotions in forum. For the rest, they create Newbie accounts, buy Coppermembership, or bug high-ranked accounts, then run their shit campaigns, zero cost but might bright huge returns back for them. It's unfair for forum and our community.

There's probably plenty of people here who could run them decently. I'm sure some users would even accept payment in tokens, but it's a real issue when inexperienced users run them, many of whom are brand new to the forum themselves and don't know how things work here or what should be expected of them, but if we let people run them how they want then people are going to take advantage of that and be lazy in doing it. Then of course there's the campaigns that don't even have a manager to begin with and those are the ones that do the worst damage.

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August 15, 2019, 11:16:48 AM
 #38

I'm off the believe since the final decision making is mostly influenced by just one individual in the person of theymos (correct me if I'm wrong) that's why he's finding it difficult to implement the suggestion of making all signature campaign payment to be made in either Bitcoin or any altcoins with value (preferable Grin or ETH). The truth of the matter is these projects popping up every now and then would comply simply because it's the rules of the forum and this will bring about more professionalism to signature bounty. As a result reduce the spam level on these boards tagged spam baords.
My personal stand on the situation is; Yeah put limitations on signature, and bounties which aren't paying in Bitcoin. Make it mandatory that they either pay Bitcoin to the forum as a payment to advertise or pay its participants in Bitcoin. Possibility even combining the two.  This would in my opinion remove most of the scam projects which likely don't have any Bitcoin to their name, and therefore promise that their coin is going to boom, and you'll be rich through the minuscule shares they're offering. I'm generally not one for putting restrictions on users, however what's the alternative? Eventually, theymos will likely have enough, and end up banning signature campaigns period, and despite all the problems they're currently causing that would be a shame. I wouldn't be entirely against the idea of banning them completely though, honestly.

For the projects that do have the funds, then great this likely won't affect them too much, and generally those that are paying in Bitcoin are of higher quality. (I say generally as I know what the counter argument will be concerning a recent Bitcoin paying signature campaign)

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August 15, 2019, 11:29:21 AM
 #39

There's probably plenty of people here who could run them decently. I'm sure some users would even accept payment in tokens, but it's a real issue when inexperienced users run them, many of whom are brand new to the forum themselves and don't know how things work here or what should be expected of them, but if we let people run them how they want then people are going to take advantage of that and be lazy in doing it. Then of course there's the campaigns that don't even have a manager to begin with and those are the ones that do the worst damage.
There are two main consequences from those campaigns, bounties that run for free, and managed by brand-new accounts or potentially scammers:
1. They only want to get money
They run bounties, campaigns for their free funds (free premined/ instamined altcoins/ tokens). So, they have nothing to lose from their bounties/ campaigns here. If their campaigns/ bounties succeed, good; if not, it is not too bad at all. Hence, they don't care about quality of their participants and their posts after accepted to join. Consequently, their participants post shit around, damage the forum. People who own those companies, and who run such campaigns/ bounties, don't care what they bring to the forum, at beginnings and after all.

2. They probably scam their participants
Scam projects mostly don't hire any managers; they run their own bounties/ campaigns. Due to they are scammers, they can change rules at ends of bounties/ campaigns with some unacceptable reasons (projects fail, ICOs fail, IEOs fail, blah blah); change payment rates; or abruptly shutdown their bounties without announcement.
Participants of those bounties/ campaigns are victims, unintentionally. Somehow, they might have bad experience and feelings about forum.
I don't mention bad guys who readily promote projects that well-known and warned as scam ones. Good people, who are lack of experience, and promote scam projects (that they don't know) for weeks/ months, and get nothing back. Even useless tokens/ altcoins.




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August 15, 2019, 11:32:37 AM
 #40

I'm off the believe since the final decision making is mostly influenced by just one individual in the person of theymos (correct me if I'm wrong) that's why he's finding it difficult to implement the suggestion of making all signature campaign payment to be made in either Bitcoin or any altcoins with value (preferable Grin or ETH). The truth of the matter is these projects popping up every now and then would comply simply because it's the rules of the forum and this will bring about more professionalism to signature bounty. As a result reduce the spam level on these boards tagged spam baords.
My personal stand on the situation is; Yeah put limitations on signature, and bounties which aren't paying in Bitcoin. Make it mandatory that they either pay Bitcoin to the forum as a payment to advertise or pay its participants in Bitcoin. Possibility even combining the two.  This would in my opinion remove most of the scam projects which likely don't have any Bitcoin to their name, and therefore promise that their coin is going to boom, and you'll be rich through the minuscule shares they're offering. I'm generally not one for putting restrictions on users, however what's the alternative? Eventually, theymos will likely have enough, and end up banning signature campaigns period, and despite all the problems they're currently causing that would be a shame. I wouldn't be entirely against the idea of banning them completely though, honestly.

For the projects that do have the funds, then great this likely won't affect them too much, and generally those that are paying in Bitcoin are of higher quality. (I say generally as I know what the counter argument will be concerning a recent Bitcoin paying signature campaign)

Most of the altcoins ICO and projects are made to collect money and they in reality spent zero amount when they give their shit tokens to the signature campaigns participants. How many times we have seen that people never receive the altcoins at the end of the campaign or even if they do, these are worthless piece of shitcoins.

Now if we implement this rule of bitcoin payment for every signature campaigns, many of those scam projects will run away. And there will be left only two types of altcoins project campaigns.

1- One that are legit and they are willing to spend the bitcoins for those who want to participate in promotion of the project.
2- Some scam altcoin projects may still exists but then they will pay something to get their scam advertised (currently they are enjoying free service)



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