WHY 21 MILLION BITCOIN CANNOT SERVE THE WHOLE WORLD

[bryant.coleman]

Bitcoin is simply not very suitable for this purpose because its transactions are too expensive and slow.

The average credit card transaction charges a fee of 3%. On a $100 bill, that's $3. You can send $100 of bitcoin for less than 3 cents, or 0.03%, 100x cheaper.

The average credit card transaction takes 3 business days (so up to 5 or even more actual days depending on weekends and holidays) for the money to reach the merchant. Up until then, it is essentially the same as an unconfirmed bitcoin transaction, and relatively easily reversed by calling your credit card company and claiming your card was hacked, stolen, cloned, scammed, etc. A bitcoin transaction can be irreversible within an hour.

If that still isn't good enough for you, then you can use Lightning for near fee-less and instant transfers.

Credit card fee is 3%? In my country VISA/Master charges around 1.8%, with the merchants sometimes getting discounts. For many of them, it is easier than depositing the physical cash in a bank and then doing the paperwork, which in the end may cost even more. Bitcoin transaction fee may be very low. but then the merchant may need to spend additional amount to convert these coins to BTC. On top of that, the VAT/GST calculations may get too complicated and it may take a lot of time and effort to settle everything in the end. Cost is not the only concern for the merchants. They are also concerned about the time and effort that is required.

[ene1980]

if satoshi is to be pegged to 1 cent and to be used as global currency, you see why it is necessary to have it expanded, because circulating money of the world will be short of about 5900 trillion satoshis.

There is the biggest problem with all your calculation, you cannot peg Satoshi to 1 cent but with all the speculation that the price would go to a million dollars then you can say that 1 Satoshi is one cent and for that to happen it will take a very long time, i really want to be optimistic about the price of bitcoin reaching a million dollars, but realistically it is impossible to reach those valuation.  .

[NavI_027]

In all fairness, I find your title interesting to discuss with. Here are my insights why 21 million btc can't reach out every single people in this planet. These are the reasons IMO:

1) Not everyone of us like btc or crypto in general, there are exisiting people which hate it and refuse to use it (e.g. bankers)
2) Not all nations have the required technology capable of using crypto. In short, technological gap. Best scenario is the life of rural tribes all around the world.
3) Even though we assume that world's population is only to 21 million, each one of us might still don't have a chance to get ine because of losses due to forgotten private keys etc.
4) In this world, equality is just an ideal concept. There will be always top and bottom and it all started because of greed. Many got nothing, some got ample and few got plenty. (I hope you know what I mean)

[joniboini]

i really want to be optimistic about the price of bitcoin reaching a million dollars, but realistically it is impossible to reach those valuation.  .

Did you believe Bitcoin will reach $20k in 2009? Or did you even believe that a Bitcoin could worth more than a gram of gold? I'd be really surpassed if you say yes, but now you don't believe that Bitcoin will reach that numbers.

4) In this world, equality is just an ideal concept. There will be always top and bottom and it all started because of greed. Many got nothing, some got ample and few got plenty. (I hope you know what I mean)

Inequality will always exist, not only because some people are greedy and don't want others to get rich, but simply because people work on different jobs. You can't pay a CEO with the same amount you pay for a bounty hunter. There is no problem with 'inequality' unless it becomes too extreme. Not everyone would get the same amount of Bitcoin, just like how signature participants get different Bitcoin because their rank is different.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Bitcoin transaction fee may be very low. but then the merchant may need to spend additional amount to convert these coins to BTC.

Converting to fiat (which I assume is what you meant) is irrelevant. That has nothing to do with the speed and price of a bitcoin transaction. No one is forcing the merchant to convert to fiat; that's entirely their choice. Still, most exchanges charge around 0.25% fees for trading to fiat, and most payment processors around 0.5 - 1%, so still less than credit cards.

On top of that, the VAT/GST calculations may get too complicated and it may take a lot of time and effort to settle everything in the end.

Taxes will be paid in fiat, and so tax calculations should be no more complicated than those for money accepted in fiat. Simply convert the BTC to the corresponding fiat value and continue as normal.

[slaman29]

I don't know much about economics but it seems to be that 1 Bitcoin is divisible into 100 million units. 80 Bitcoins is at least 1 satoshi per person if every person had bitcoin on this planet. And to my understanding, that is even more divisible by more when you use fractions of satoshi, which is already theoretically possible. So if it makes sense to me, it makes sense to normal people.

[deisik]

Bitcoin is simply not very suitable for this purpose because its transactions are too expensive and slow.

The average credit card transaction charges a fee of 3%. On a $100 bill, that's $3. You can send $100 of bitcoin for less than 3 cents, or 0.03%, 100x cheaper

I'm not sure where you got these numbers

What you say may in fact be true in respect to credit cards specifically or in some very special cases (which I doubt, by the way), but as I use regular payment cards (otherwise known as debit cards), I don't pay anything. Nada. Null. Zilch. And while it may in fact take a few days to settle these transactions inside the payment system, this doesn't in the least affect me as a customer as payments with these cards are instant

The average credit card transaction takes 3 business days (so up to 5 or even more actual days depending on weekends and holidays) for the money to reach the merchant. Up until then, it is essentially the same as an unconfirmed bitcoin transaction, and relatively easily reversed by calling your credit card company and claiming your card was hacked, stolen, cloned, scammed, etc

I don't really know what you refer to here

As you might already be aware, I live in Russia. Two days ago I made an order at iHerb, an American company, paying them with my payment card (which is in Russian rubles, just in case). They received my payment instantly (probably already in dollars). But since I forgot to apply some discount code (called promo code there), I canceled my order immediately and got a refund as fast as my first payment went through. Then I reordered and I didn't have to wait till my follow-up payment was accepted by iHerb. Technically, for me, all these payments and refunds went through in real time. So much for waiting 3 days (or whatever)

Converting to fiat (which I assume is what you meant) is irrelevant. That has nothing to do with the speed and price of a bitcoin transaction. No one is forcing the merchant to convert to fiat; that's entirely their choice

They are in fact forced as crypto is not universally accepted to make this conversion optional or unnecessary

[guoyu78]

At first bitcoin wasn't meant for so massive usage, to be used all over the world, so this coin isn't ready for a lot of reasons: 21 Million supply, what to do with those ones that are lost and are still getting lost? We can do  nothing at the moment and believe me, when a lot of people start using it, we will lose far more than we already have.
Secondly - what about fees? Current fees aren't good for such usage, we need almost zero fee and that's not good news for miners.
In overall bitcoin can't change current currencies, at least at the moment this looks like that.

I would not think that, because when bitcoin was created, it was created with limited supply fine, but I dint think it was created not to be used globally and I think one of its purpose is to serve as a global coin, even tough it is stated to serve as alternative, but something that is meant to serve as alternative as a breakdown of it, and that is the most important part of it, and I believe that if bitcoin is to serve as a global currency, it will be able to.

I think that even if it is limited to that 21 million in book, something or probably a provision has been made for it to get expanded when it gets to that stage where demands become more, but if bitcoin will not be used as a global currency, then there is absolutely no need to even expand it at all, we will just make do with what we have now which will serve for a long time.

[ene1980]

~snip
Did you believe Bitcoin will reach $20k in 2009? Or did you even believe that a Bitcoin could worth more than a gram of gold? I'd be really surpassed if you say yes, but now you don't believe that Bitcoin will reach that numbers.

I was not in bitcoin during 2009 and during that phase even Satoshi would not believe the price would catch up like that . For argument sake let the price of bitcoin reaches a million dollar and for that to happen the BTCitcoin market capital has to touch almost 16 trillion USD and do you think the technology has developed to include huge transaction volumes and how much transaction charges are you willing to pay if the price of BTCitcoin reaches a million dollar and hence i would say it is not a realistic argument now, if you have a better argument you can change my mind on that  .

[o_e_l_e_o]

What you say may in fact be true in respect to credit cards specifically or in some very special cases (which I doubt, by the way), but as I use regular payment cards (otherwise known as debit cards), I don't pay anything. Nada. Null. Zilch.

Credit card fees are paid by the merchant accepting the card, not by the individual paying with the card. This is not some big secret. Many smaller retailers don't accept card or have a minimum spend requirement to pay by card for this reason.

And while it may in fact take a few days to settle these transactions inside the payment system, this doesn't in the least affect me as a customer as payments with these cards are instant

No, but it does affect the retailer. If they need the money quickly, then bitcoin is far faster - in the region of hours rather than several days. Much like an unconfirmed transaction, until the credit card company processes the payment, the merchant can see it but not spend it.

As you might already be aware, I live in Russia. Two days ago I made an order at iHerb, an American company, paying them with my payment card (which is in Russian rubles, just in case). They received my payment instantly (probably already in dollars). But since I forgot to apply some discount code (called promo code there), I canceled my order immediately and got a refund as fast as my first payment went through.

They didn't receive your payment instantly. They received notification from your credit card company instantly. They won't receive the payment for several days. The fact that you could cancel it immediately is exactly my point; credit card transactions are just as easily, if not more easily, reversed than zero confirmation transactions. Both credit card transactions and bitcoin transactions can be broadcast instantly, but bitcoin transactions will confirm within minutes to hours, while credit card transactions will take days.

[South Park]

When we talk of bitcoin supply, we look at it as 21 million bitcoin, and people wonder how that can serve the whole 7 billion population, but we forgot that there are smaller units of bitcoin, we have the mbtc, we have the ubtc and we have the satoshi, and i will like to talk on the satoshi which i believe needs to be expanded to really serve the current economy.

SATOSHI,
This is the smallest units of bitcoin, and 1 bitcoin is equals to 100,000,000 satoshis, which means that the total satoshi that we have is 2100 thrillion satoshis.

The total circulating money of the world according to According to the Bank for International Settlements is 80 trillion dollars, the lowest denomination of usd is cent and 100 cent equals 1 dollar, so we have 8000 trillion cent circulating as money in the world, if satoshi is to be pegged to 1 cent and to be used as global currency, you see why it is necessary to have it expanded, because circulating money of the world will be short of about 5900 trillion satoshis.

You are worrying yourself over a problem we are nowhere close to have, only a few million people are using bitcoin and while the units themselves are not a problem during a time of high activity it can be difficult to get a confirmation, that is in what the developers have been focusing with the lightning network, but your argument is no different than those that claim that the gold we have is not enough to serve the world, if we ever found ourselves with that problem there are only two solutions a satoshi will have to be more valuable than one cent or the devs could add an even smaller unit than the satoshi.

[bryant.coleman]

Bitcoin transaction fee may be very low. but then the merchant may need to spend additional amount to convert these coins to BTC.

Converting to fiat (which I assume is what you meant) is irrelevant. That has nothing to do with the speed and price of a bitcoin transaction. No one is forcing the merchant to convert to fiat; that's entirely their choice. Still, most exchanges charge around 0.25% fees for trading to fiat, and most payment processors around 0.5 - 1%, so still less than credit cards.

On top of that, the VAT/GST calculations may get too complicated and it may take a lot of time and effort to settle everything in the end.

Taxes will be paid in fiat, and so tax calculations should be no more complicated than those for money accepted in fiat. Simply convert the BTC to the corresponding fiat value and continue as normal.

I am not sure whether it is as simple as it sounds. The 0.25% fee that you have mentioned is for trading. But once you convert your coins to fiat, you need to deposit the resulting fiat in your bank account. I am not sure how much it is going to cost, but I suspect that it is much more expensive than the exchange fees and on top of that this process can take a few weeks to complete.

I agree that no one is forcing the merchant to convert to fiat. But then, he need to take care of his expenses and for that he need fiat cash. What if the supplier doesn't accept BTC? He need to get his supplies on a regular basis, so that his shop is fully stocked. For that, the payments needs to be in fiat cash and the delay should not exceed a few days.

[deisik]

What you say may in fact be true in respect to credit cards specifically or in some very special cases (which I doubt, by the way), but as I use regular payment cards (otherwise known as debit cards), I don't pay anything. Nada. Null. Zilch.

Credit card fees are paid by the merchant accepting the card, not by the individual paying with the card. This is not some big secret. Many smaller retailers don't accept card or have a minimum spend requirement to pay by card for this reason

Why should I care as long as I'm not made to pay for it? In the worst case scenario I can just do by paying with cash

And while it may in fact take a few days to settle these transactions inside the payment system, this doesn't in the least affect me as a customer as payments with these cards are instant

No, but it does affect the retailer. If they need the money quickly, then bitcoin is far faster - in the region of hours rather than several days. Much like an unconfirmed transaction, until the credit card company processes the payment, the merchant can see it but not spend it

Let's hope Bitcoin will make them process these transactions faster

As you might already be aware, I live in Russia. Two days ago I made an order at iHerb, an American company, paying them with my payment card (which is in Russian rubles, just in case). They received my payment instantly (probably already in dollars). But since I forgot to apply some discount code (called promo code there), I canceled my order immediately and got a refund as fast as my first payment went through.

They didn't receive your payment instantly. They received notification from your credit card company instantly. They won't receive the payment for several days. The fact that you could cancel it immediately is exactly my point; credit card transactions are just as easily, if not more easily, reversed than zero confirmation transactions. Both credit card transactions and bitcoin transactions can be broadcast instantly, but bitcoin transactions will confirm within minutes to hours, while credit card transactions will take days

That essentially fortifies my point about merchants being ultimately irrelevant

I mean, as far as means of making payments are concerned. People are often asking themselves (well, this is my assumption as I don't really know what they are in fact asking themselves) why merchants are willing to pay exorbitant fees on payments made via payment cards (credit or otherwise) and they still refuse to accept cryptocurrencies which are by far less expensive in terms of transaction fees?

Long story short, this is a false dichotomy, and your explanation makes its falseness apparent. It is not merchants who have the say in these matters. It is buyers. So if buyers want to pay with credit cards (or otherwise), merchants will readily pay these excessive fees to Visa and its likes. And if they don't want to pay with cryptocurrencies, merchants will be reluctant to accept such payments either, even if they are cheaper and faster

[o_e_l_e_o]

But once you convert your coins to fiat, you need to deposit the resulting fiat in your bank account. I am not sure how much it is going to cost, but I suspect that it is much more expensive than the exchange fees and on top of that this process can take a few weeks to complete.

Then that is a problem with the fiat banking system. If you are paying fees to deposit fiat in your accounts, then you'll also be paying those fees when depositing fiat customers have paid you with.

Why should I care as long as I'm not made to pay for it?

Because your initial point was "bitcoin is too expensive". Bitcoin is actually far cheaper for merchants to use than credit cards. If more people understood this, then it could help adoption.

Let's hope Bitcoin will make them process these transactions faster

Yeah, it probably will. There is a new system being set up in the EU, which currently covers around 50% of fiat payment service providers, to process transactions instantly.

It is not merchants who have the say in these matters. It is buyers. So if buyers want to pay with credit cards (or otherwise), merchants will readily pay these excessive fees to Visa and its likes.

It goes both ways. If credit card companies suddenly put their processing fees up to 10%, you can bet merchants would either stop using them, or make prices more expensive for using credit cards, regardless of what the customer wanted. I do agree that merchants are unlikely to start accepting bitcoin out of the blue, because they need to know there is a demand for it, which is why I encourage everyone to approach any small or independent retailers you frequent and talk to them about accepting bitcoin. I've had a fair amount of success doing this.

[freedomgo]

If BTC will have its ultimate success in the future, 1 satoshi could be valued at 1 usd, that is possible as the bigger the adoption the higher the demand.
That's why some experts said that own at least 1 BTC and you will become a millionaire in the future, and that's what I'm trying to achieve because the sats that is less valuable now could be very valuable in the future.

Also, if BTC would not be able to serve the people, there will be Bitcoin forks in the future and as long as it's supported that will solve the problem, but I don't really think it is necessary in the long.

[audaciousbeing]

When we talk of bitcoin supply, we look at it as 21 million bitcoin, and people wonder how that can serve the whole 7 billion population, but we forgot that there are smaller units of bitcoin, we have the mbtc, we have the ubtc and we have the satoshi, and i will like to talk on the satoshi which i believe needs to be expanded to really serve the current economy.

SATOSHI,
This is the smallest units of bitcoin, and 1 bitcoin is equals to 100,000,000 satoshis, which means that the total satoshi that we have is 2100 thrillion satoshis.

The total circulating money of the world according to According to the Bank for International Settlements is 80 trillion dollars, the lowest denomination of usd is cent and 100 cent equals 1 dollar, so we have 8000 trillion cent circulating as money in the world, if satoshi is to be pegged to 1 cent and to be used as global currency, you see why it is necessary to have it expanded, because circulating money of the world will be short of about 5900 trillion satoshis.

You have made some valid explanation and down to the last unit of bitcoin which a lot of people have misinterpreted that its going to be the one that is unlimited. However, you conclusion did not take into consideration two things,

1. You are attaching a definite value to one satoshi which is not. The value of a good is not on the the volume of currency but the real worth. There was a time in Zimbabwe where a pauper is a ''billionaire'' because of the currency crises in that part of the world. So in essence, if the currency is limited to that number of Satoshis, it then means they would only be more valuable in themselves.

2. The limit again is assuming the only crypto currency we have is bitcoin forgetting that there are other reputable and longstanding coins that can be used in place of bitcoin which then ultimately reduce the pressure on crypto and its limited units.

[imstillthebest]

You think it cant serve the whole word because the supply is only 21m but the number of world population is over billions but but the 21m supply does not mean that will remain on those 21m people because most of them are going to sell thier btc in which other unholder of btc can also hold a btc  . currently more btc are already mined out but many people have buy and sold btc

[Indamuck]

-There are more crypto coins than just bitcoin

-Realize that credit cards and cash will remain the dominant currency in the world, Be realistic and realize that bitcoin won't become the global currency

[bryant.coleman]

-There are more crypto coins than just bitcoin
-Realize that credit cards and cash will remain the dominant currency in the world, Be realistic and realize that bitcoin won't become the global currency

Agreed with both of your points, to a certain degree. You are right when you say that there are a large number of cryptocurrencies in existence, apart from Bitcoin. As per my calculations, the total number may exceed 10,000, although a large part is currently either dead or dormant. But the point to be noted here is that Bitcoin alone account for close to 70% of all the cryptocurrency market capitalization.

You are right on the second point as well. Fiat cash will remain supreme for sometime now and I don't expect Bitcoin to replace fiat currency in any of the UN member states. Our best hope is some micronation declaring Bitcoin as the official currency and having great success with it in the future. It may encourage the other nations to allow the usage of Bitcoin.

[jostorres]

But, is Bitcoin right for us to be making use of? I mean like you all keep on saying that the world will abandon Fiat and go for cryptocurrency. If you believe that then why do you still mention dollars and still comparing the price of BTC based on dollar and all that?

If we all decides to be making use of cryptocurrency (Bitcoin) it is not going to be worth the same thing as dollars, cause the worth will be more than the dollar. And I believe that there is enough Bitcoin for everyone that wishes to be investing in it or making use of it, cause people trade cryptocurrency daily and that means that as much as people continues to get involved the more the price for a Bitcoin will increase. Not everyone will be able to buy one Bitcoin , they will prefer to buy it by units. Just like some of us would do now, Bitcoin might be worth $10,000 but we can decide to buy $4,000 worth of it. It’s not a must you’re going to buy all of it.