Advice on Raspberry pi hardware for running full BTC node

[Carlton Banks]

Should I be using a specific flavor of ubuntu or a specific .iso to load onto the SD Card?

dunno about "should", but I would just load a "headless" OS image. You're going to be using the terminal almost exclusively with all the lightning based stuff anyway. You'll save RAM that way too, the desktop graphics use alot of RAM. And more RAM means more Lightning channels. Get Debian or Devuan, Ubuntu is just a version of Debian with a whole load of perfume and makeup slapped onto it.

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[DaveF]

From the this is my opinion YMMV I would stick with Debian and avoid all others.

A lot (most?) of the support you may need for some odd issue possibly that you have to go back to the RPi groups / forums for will be quicker with Debian. It's just what most people use. Not saying it's better, not saying you won't get or be able to find the correct answer using a different build. Just saying that most people use it so if you are doing something and encounter an issue that you will probably be able to get more info quicker.

I have done many stupid things with my RPis over the years and I have found that when I have had an issue because I did something wrong when using Debian there was usually someone there before me who had done the exact same thing. When running UBU or the others they were there too, just not as much.

Good luck with the build

-Dave

[Dabs]

How about Ubuntu Server? That doesn't include a bunch of make up does it? No Gui, connect by SSH? I ask only because that's my experience when running full nodes of altcoins on VPS, they usually say "install Ubuntu server" ... you know, masternodes and stuff like that, those are essentially full nodes. May need to install a couple of other apps using apt-get, but can easily follow scripts.

[Icygreen]

I have Raspbian installed on the SD now. Had no idea to look for Debian. Thanks for the tips! 
Perhaps I'll start with Rasbian and try to run the node from here. Remember, this is all a learning experiment to familiarize myself with BTC core and RPi's. 
Next questions,  I intend to sync core on my desktop before moving to the RPi. 
I'm assuming I need to first download core on my desktop? Will I need to partition my external 2TB HD in any way when I put the block chain on the HD? 

[Carlton Banks]

How about Ubuntu Server? That doesn't include a bunch of make up does it?

well, yeah. I'm not aware of the specifics of Ubuntu Server, but it's likely as if choosing a sex doll instead of going for the real thing. What's the point of Ubuntu's server version when...

From the this is my opinion YMMV I would stick with Debian and avoid all others.

...agreed, Debian's conservative, minimalist approach is pretty much perfect for servers. You don't want the package updates to be constantly changing the ground under your feet, you just want security updates only, and a well supported ecosystem so it's easy to find the information you need.



I'd add that if you really want a solid server, the systemd init system is a potential menace (it's ok for a laptop that doesn't need stability or security). Devuan is a Debian fork that gives you choice of init systems, there are various well-designed init concepts to choose from (Debian packages them all, but it's hard work actually uninstalling systemd and replacing it, as the init system is such a basic part of the operating system)

On similar grounds to replacing systemd (bad design makes it insecure), I'd suggest looking at ditching OpenSSL too. It's just as difficult to remove as systemd, as it's just as fundamental to the OS's functionality (nothing works if you have no init, the machine won't boot up! Removing SSL is almost as bad...) For that reason, starting without OpenSSL is the best option, but it's also not easy. The main OS's that support the alternative SSL (LibreSSL) are Gentoo, FreeBSD and OpenBSD (i.e. the only well known Linux supporting LibreSSL is Gentoo). They're great OS's, but not for beginners.

[Icygreen]

I've been finding my way with some luck and tons of google searches so far but there's some concerns still about its stability.
I was unplugging the Rpi each time I wanted to turn it off. Only recently found the power off button, duh. Had to reformat a few times likely because of this. At least that's my theory now.

If the Rpi won't boot or enters a loop and retrying boot fails too many times, is reformatting and burning image to the card the only way to fix it? 

[Carlton Banks]

I've been finding my way with some luck and tons of google searches so far but there's some concerns still about its stability.
I was unplugging the Rpi each time I wanted to turn it off. Only recently found the power off button, duh. Had to reformat a few times likely because of this. At least that's my theory now.

If the Rpi won't boot or enters a loop and retrying boot fails too many times, is reformatting and burning image to the card the only way to fix it?  

stability is a bitch on RPi's.

the Pi 4 is new, so stability is even bitchier. But because you're using Raspbian, the fixes will be easy to find, as it's pretty much the official OS.

In order of importance:

• Get firmware updates
• Get kernel updates
• Get all other OS updates too

You can probably handle all the above using the command:

Code:

apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade

if you're not logged into the root account, you need to add sudo before each apt-get command (because the above is actually 2 commands, the && means "do the next command, but only if the last one worked") And your user needs to be in the wheel group, or have an entry in the /etc/sudoers file to be able to actually use sudo without Raspian telling you you tried to do something naughty.

Raspbian probably has you configured to get everything update-wise using those commands. But, the Raspberry Pi forums will tell you more. For instance, I clocked my CPU down on my Raspberry Pi 3B+, and I wouldn't have known that was a stability fix had it not been for searching/reading the RPi forums. Just updating the software didn't work, it needed tweaking somewhere else in the OS's config files.

[Icygreen]

Thanks, I found this guide which addressed both sudo user group accounts and the updates, also disabling pi sign in.https://www.maketecheasier.com/change-raspberry-pi-password/

So I take that as a "yes" , reformatting is the correct solution when booting fails repetitively.
I guess there's no way to save configurations/accounts or anything stored on the sd card and the above account creation process will need to be repeated anytime it happens.  So far, I haven't had any more issues since using the proper power down button.
Now just waiting for core to finish syncing.

[Carlton Banks]

By default, Raspbian will set you user 'pi' with sudoers groups where you don't need to type your account password to run sudo command.

that's not very safe

@Icygreen you might want to configure your OS to ask password when you run command with sudo prefix. See https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/a/62759

take this ^^ advice

So I take that as a "yes" , reformatting is the correct solution when booting fails repetitively.

it was a no

the correct solution is to research ways to make the RPi 4 stable. In particular, the premium (4B+) boards might be overclocked too much, change the CPU clock speed (or the memory controller's clock speed) and/or the amount of voltage to either, and you might find the Pi stays up.


If you keep syncing the blockchain while the board keeps crashing, there's a good chance the data in the blockchain will suffer some corruption. There's not much point in starting that job until you've figured out how to keep the RPi up. A good way to do it is find out the command for memory testing, this basically gives the CPU and RAM a workout that never ends. Leave it running like that for multiple days, then try something different to stabilize the RPi when/if it crashes. Once it stays up for a week or 2 just doing 24/7 memtesting, you've probably cracked it.

[DaveF]

So I take that as a "yes" , reformatting is the correct solution when booting fails repetitively.

it was a no

the correct solution is to research ways to make the RPi 4 stable. In particular, the premium (4B+) boards might be overclocked too much, change the CPU clock speed (or the memory controller's clock speed) and/or the amount of voltage to either, and you might find the Pi stays up.


If you keep syncing the blockchain while the board keeps crashing, there's a good chance the data in the blockchain will suffer some corruption. There's not much point in starting that job until you've figured out how to keep the RPi up. A good way to do it is find out the command for memory testing, this basically gives the CPU and RAM a workout that never ends. Leave it running like that for multiple days, then try something different to stabilize the RPi when/if it crashes. Once it stays up for a week or 2 just doing 24/7 memtesting, you've probably cracked it.

I know I have posted it before, but I am going to post it again.
There are MANY MANY MANY cases that actually make it worse.

From another thread that I posted in and commented in this thread about:

Will try to order one or both of these 'cool'   cases from china. There are also options with fans but I really prefer passive cooling for something that is intended for 24/7 use.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000056606252.html
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000095452880.html

Make sure that there is actual contact between the case and CPU in the proper area. Cheap cases suck.
Just scrapped a bunch of aluminum cases for the RPi3 that had enough space between the heatsinnk that was part of the case and the CPU itself that the thermal pad I put on the CPU was untouched on top

-Dave

and after he got it in:

Make sure that there is actual contact between the case and CPU in the proper area. Cheap cases suck.

Received one of the cheap cases, the one with ribs. And as DaveF suspected, there were no contact between cpu and heatsink. There were about 1mm air gap 😕.
I cut a small piece of 1mm aluminum and fitted it with heatsink compound, which turned it into an ON OK solution 🙂.
Raspiblitz running at about 50C now.

Edit: Fixed typo.

When cooling something 1mm is about the same as 1 mile, no contact = no cooling. Putting it in a case = worse cooling due to no airflow.
Bad cooling = more crashes.



Side note this is not new:
This even goes back to some old school miners that used the older RPis as controllers.
Amazing how many problems existed because they were moving a lot of air over the chips but none over the Pi that just sat there and slowly cooked.

I actually still have a stack of the 2B models sitting around for the people who have old miners that used them that want to revive them to play with because the old ones cooked.

-Dave

[Carlton Banks]

yep cooling helps

[Dabs]

Yeah, I think instead of a case, a heatsink that sits directly on top of the chips work better. I'm thinking the better whole metal cases would have the gap in between the halves of the shell and you'd need screws or something to tighten it. That would or should ensure contact with the chips.

Heatsinks that you stick on the chips just seem to work better. If you do anything else on the RPi that makes it cook itself, you might be better off getting other hardware (like refurb rack servers?)

[HCP]

Heatsinks that you stick on the chips just seem to work better. If you do anything else on the RPi that makes it cook itself, you might be better off getting other hardware (like refurb rack servers?)

That would be true in the "general" case, but OP specified that the whole setup needed to be portable.

Well, it should fit in my laptop bag easily. It will need to travel once every few months and must be quiet.

So a refurb rack server isn't going to work

But yes, you're quite correct. Pi's and cases generally just aren't a great mix in my experience... you're much better off with a bare board than an ill fitting case.

[Icygreen]

Clarifying some things:

* The Rpi 4 has been 100% stable during operation so far. The issues I had were during a boot with either a loop or "no signal" message.  It appears to be solved and it was likely due to a user problem (shutting down by pulling the power, corrupted boot loader).

* I'm using heatsinks on all 4 chips and the main CPU also has a small fan over it.  I'm certain there's no heat issues yet.  I'll look for a tool to measure the heat once it's up and running the blockchain and report my findings.

* I'm syncing the blockchain from my main computer to an external HD and it'll move to the RP once it's finished.  

Again, Thanks for your help and recommendations. Much appreciated
  

[Carlton Banks]

ahhhh

sounds like you've thought this through, carry on

[Dabs]

A laptop fits in a laptop bag. One of those small computer boxes, like mini desktops, might fit in a laptop bag. There are mini laptops can be bought used for cheap.

For running a full node, a laptop works fine, just upgrade the HDD / SSD, or use a combination laptop with SSD + external HDD. Most any laptop would generally have more processing power, more RAM, and ... some other things I'm forgetting at the moment; already comes with a screen, mouse (or equivalent) and keyboard, and can run your choice of operating system.

Yes, they'll cost more than a $35 pi, but remember with the pi you need to get other stuff as well just to make it run. Once you add 1TB for storage, might as well get an old laptop and upgrade the drive.

I see 10 or 11 inch mini laptops / notebooks for less than $200.

The rack server would sit at home or some other place semi-permanent.



Anyway ... he's got the pi up and running, so, glad to see some progress on this. Would appreciate what config and set up you did, and other details.

[klaaas]

* I'm using heatsinks on all 4 chips and the main CPU also has a small fan over it.  I'm certain there's no heat issues yet.  I'll look for a tool to measure the heat once it's up and running the blockchain and report my findings.

Enter this command on the command line to read the cpu temp.
/opt/vc/bin/vcgencmd measure_temp

The pi as full node is only for its size and to use it headless if you would ask me.
My pick for a full node was this board. A bit in between.

[Icygreen]

Would appreciate what config and set up you did, and other details.

Here's the consolidated efforts thus far.
I've got it set up in this case. Its quite open as far as enclosures go and it suits the form factor I had in mind.


RP 4, 4gb, Rasbian, updates  installed, created new super user and password, disabled pi,  I followed this tutorial exactly. https://www.maketecheasier.com/change-raspberry-pi-password/
Keyboard, mouse and the 4" screen connected, I ran /opt/vc/bin/vcgencmd measure_temp  and it idles at 46 degrees both with the screen on or off in ambient temp of ~22 degrees.
Tonight I'll try to get OpenVPN working as my first application.
 
Couple more questions while we're here if you don't mind.

*If I switch off the screen while running core, is that the same as running headless or should the screen be unplugged?

*Core is synced 45% after 2 full days, is 4-5 days typical to download and sync core?

*I noticed 2009-2015 synced rather quickly compared with later times. Is that because of increased transaction in the blocks?

[ranochigo]

*If I switch off the screen while running core, is that the same as running headless or should the screen be unplugged?

No. Running it headless means that the Graphical User Interface (GUI) is not used and that it can only be controlled using the command line. The lack of the GUI means that it would take lesser resources to run it. Switching off the screen or unplugging it won't do anything as the GUI would still be running. You have to run it from command line.

*Core is synced 45% after 2 full days, is 4-5 days typical to download and sync core?

The synchronizing and verification process is rather tedious and it isn't uncommon for it to take a few days to synchronize. It's highly dependent on the hardware that you're synchronizing it on. You can try to speed up the process by optimizing the parameters like the dbcache etc.

*I noticed 2009-2015 synced rather quickly compared with later times. Is that because of increased transaction in the blocks?

Yes. The larger block means that there are more transactions to be validated individually. It would naturally be slower.

[Carlton Banks]

*If I switch off the screen while running core, is that the same as running headless or should the screen be unplugged?

No. Running it headless means that the Graphical User Interface (GUI) is not used and that it can only be controlled using the command line. The lack of the GUI means that it would take lesser resources to run it. Switching off the screen or unplugging it won't do anything as the GUI would still be running. You have to run it from command line.

this is definitely a good thing if you're going to run the Pi with Lightning too, as there'll be more RAM/CPU for Lightning to use (you can have more channels and route more payments)

The drawback is if you have a problem you can't solve quickly using your command-line knowledge. If you've got experience with any command line, linux/bash or not, you'll be more comfortable. But you might want to keep the GUI around for a while so you can solve problems in a more familiar way (but truthfully, you've got way more control on the command line, if you're feeling confident just go ahead, people here can help if you get stuck)

You can compromise too, you should be able to change Raspian's boot script to not load the GUI on boot, then just take note of the command (probably the startx script in /etc/X11) that loads the GUI. Then you can make sure you know you're good on the command line, but have the option of going into the GUI still available.

Last thing: get tmux (apt-get install tmux). It's for opening multiple command line windows, splitting the windows into sections etc (tmux let's you do this in headless more when normally you'd be pressing Ctrl-Alt-F keys to get extra terminal windows, tmux is way more flexible that that way of doing it). Makes working on the command line way faster and more versatile. You can configure it to automatically open up a bunch of windows on boot showing logging for bitcoind, openvpn etc