a society question about prison time

[franky1]

having seen prison systems fail to punish people due to re-offend rates
having seen prison systems fail common sense by giving smaller crimes harsher times.. and harsher crimes smaller times

knowing the costs of incarcerations costing alot ($£30k a year per inmate in many cases)

what views do people have for a better system
would it be instead of putting people with drug/alcohol issues where no other person was harmed. put into rehab
would it be for financial crimes people made to repay financially.
EG made to do volunteer work for just $500 a month social security($£6k) and the other $£24k going back to victims

i think what im basically saying is if you know it can cost $£30k a year for punishment. how many years would a particular crimes punishment deserve being spent on it. and what 'service' (cells,rehab,community,other) would you spend the funds on

so imagine you had your own island/continent and had the ability to write the laws and consequences. what would they be

[BADecker]

Love God above all things and your neighbor as yourself.

Punishment for not keeping the law is found in the regulations.

[franky1]

Love God above all things and your neighbor as yourself.

*so love someone you have never met and has never talked to you personally (aww must be lonely)
*then cheat on your neighbours wife
*then and only then can you appreciate yourself

umm. nah no thanks. seems like a sad lonely lifestyle choice

but lts play a game badecker.
you own some land. someone walks on your land and does something you dont like. so you invite thm into your barn and ask them to explain thmselves and you and your neighbours decide if the man is worthy of being forgiven. or dserves something bad happening to them.

imagine its tresspassing on your land
imagine its driving their bigfoot truck over th top of your vehicle. you know driving on your property
imagine they walked up to you and gave you an invoice for $500 because your property took them 3 minutes walking time from fense to door to speak to you. which is taking their personal time off them

what would be your barn rules AND RESPONSIBILITIES in your farmland society of your property boundries
would you for instance ask them to seek your permission to use your property else be charged a fine

[BADecker]

Love God above all things and your neighbor as yourself.

*so love someone you have never met and has never talked to you personally (aww must be lonely)
*then cheat on your neighbours wife
*then and only then can you appreciate yourself

umm. nah no thanks. seems like a sad lonely lifestyle choice

but lts play a game badecker.
you own some land. someone walks on your land and does something you dont like. so you invite thm into your barn and ask them to explain thmselves and you and your neighbours decide if the man is worthy of being forgiven. or dserves something bad happening to them.

imagine its tresspassing on your land
imagine its driving their bigfoot truck over th top of your vehicle. you know driving on your property
imagine they walked up to you and gave you an invoice for $500 because your property took them 3 minutes walking time from fense to door to speak to you. which is taking their personal time off them

what would be your barn rules AND RESPONSIBILITIES in your farmland society of your property boundries
would you for instance ask them to seek your permission to use your property else be charged a fine

But you have met God. His Spirit rides along with you right next to your spirit, so close that you can barely tell the difference. If He didn't ride with you, you would be dead.

[franky1]

But you have met God. His Spirit rides along with you right next to your spirit, so close that you can barely tell the difference. If He didn't ride with you, yo would be dead.

what you call god is not a single entity with 7billion tenticals touching everyone

if you read the bible from a critical thinking point. it is a book of camp fire stories later wrote down where philosophers try to understand biology, physics, evolution and also stories to form the initial basic morals for people to know whats right and wrong

god is not a single man, god is your subconscious, we all have our own subconscious
a good subconcious we name good(god) a evil subconcious we name evil(devil)

when you pray. your not praying to some omni being in the sky. your talking to that little voice in your head that tells you that its wrong to bang your neighbours wife, tells you to move your hand away when you put it too near a fire or the sharp side of a knife. its the voice that tells you not to pinch a wallet thats hanging out the pocket of a person walking infront of you

its not some omni being that has its own shared consciousness with other people and is telling everyone what to do.. it is your personal subconcious for you and you alone
this is why different people view their god differently. some people view it as if they do good they get rewarded, if they do bad they will get forgiven if they are remorseful, or just end up in a agonising loop of PTSD/depression if they cant forgive themself
some people are the 'god fearing' thinking they will be smitted and feel agony even for doing small harmless bad things.

anyway all this stuff has nothing to do with imagining your own system of rules and consequences.
so come on badecker. stick to the topic.
imagine this as your opertunity to design your own court, your rules of right and wrong, and of course the consequences
come on i know you secretly want to invent your own court. so her is your chance

ill make it easy. just use the 4 categories and give examples of each and show the possible consequences.
harm - consequence
loss - consequence
damage - consequence
tresspass -consequence

[darkangel11]

The US justice system is a great representation of how it should not be. It doesn't work and they still can't change it. It keeps going because politicians are afraid of touching it. They treat it like that friend with smelly feet. You can all smell it and you all would like to tell him somehow but nobody wants to be the one who does it. 
The statistics are brutal. People get raped in prisons and most get extorted. If you're a young white pretty boy in prison you're going to pay every day with money or with ass if you don't have money. 

[franky1]

The US justice system is a great representation of how it should not be. It doesn't work and they still can't change it. It keeps going because politicians are afraid of touching it. They treat it like that friend with smelly feet. You can all smell it and you all would like to tell him somehow but nobody wants to be the one who does it. 
The statistics are brutal. People get raped in prisons and most get extorted. If you're a young white pretty boy in prison you're going to pay every day with money or with ass if you don't have money. 

so imagine you personally had control of the rulebook(law) and the moneybag(treasury) how would you design a new systm

EG
victimless crime (person taking his own drugs himself or a woman agreeing consentualy to prostitute herself) deserve jailtime, or some kind of rehab?

would you redesign prisons

what laws would you strengthen or relax

[BADecker]

But you have met God. His Spirit rides along with you right next to your spirit, so close that you can barely tell the difference. If He didn't ride with you, yo would be dead.

what you call god is not a single entity with 7billion tenticals touching everyone

if you read the bible from a critical thinking point. it is a book of camp fire stories later wrote down where philosophers try to understand biology, physics, evolution and also stories to form the initial basic morals for people to know whats right and wrong

god is not a single man, god is your subconscious, we all have our own subconscious
a good subconcious we name good(god) a evil subconcious we name evil(devil)

when you pray. your not praying to some omni being in the sky. your talking to that little voice in your head that tells you that its wrong to bang your neighbours wife, tells you to move your hand away when you put it too near a fire or the sharp side of a knife. its the voice that tells you not to pinch a wallet thats hanging out the pocket of a person walking infront of you

its not some omni being that has its own shared consciousness with other people and is telling everyone what to do.. it is your personal subconcious for you and you alone
this is why different people view their god differently. some people view it as if they do good they get rewarded, if they do bad they will get forgiven if they are remorseful, or just end up in a agonising loop of PTSD/depression if they cant forgive themself
some people are the 'god fearing' thinking they will be smitted and feel agony even for doing small harmless bad things.

anyway all this stuff has nothing to do with imagining your own system of rules and consequences.
so come on badecker. stick to the topic.
imagine this as your opertunity to design your own court, your rules of right and wrong, and of course the consequences
come on i know you secretly want to invent your own court. so her is your chance

ill make it easy. just use the 4 categories and give examples of each and show the possible consequences.
harm - consequence
loss - consequence
damage - consequence
tresspass -consequence

Good guess. But... you aren't quite as dense as some.

[darkangel11]

The US justice system is a great representation of how it should not be. It doesn't work and they still can't change it. It keeps going because politicians are afraid of touching it. They treat it like that friend with smelly feet. You can all smell it and you all would like to tell him somehow but nobody wants to be the one who does it. 
The statistics are brutal. People get raped in prisons and most get extorted. If you're a young white pretty boy in prison you're going to pay every day with money or with ass if you don't have money. 

so imagine you personally had control of the rulebook(law) and the moneybag(treasury) how would you design a new systm

EG
victimless crime (person taking his own drugs himself or a woman agreeing consentualy to prostitute herself) deserve jailtime, or some kind of rehab?

would you redesign prisons

what laws would you strengthen or relax

This is a difficult question for someone like me who watches it from the sidelines and was never in the prison system.
First of all at I wouldn't put in jail people weren't and aren't a danger to others but only to themselves. Drug addicts should go to rehab. If they keep running away they should be left to rot. You can't help someone who doesn't want it.

Some examples of what should be treated as misdemeanor:
Drug addiction and possession without the intent to distribute.
Drunk driving
Tax evasion
Small theft
Prostitution

People are serving sentences for hacking, distributing pornography, running torrent services and dark web markets in the US justice system. There's no need for that.
The famous case of Ross sentenced to life for running a website is a joke, the same as what they're trying to do to Assange and Snowden.

[franky1]

drink driving.
id question that one
as that has a higher risk of harming someone.
id not just make them pay a fine. id make them do some sobriety AA meetings and maybe have their vehicle fitted with a bell chime or whistle so that people around can hear him driving more so than other vehicles.
plus maybe he'd decide not to take his car to the local bar and walk/get a cab instead


as for prostitution
why make using the muscles between lgs a crime but a guy on a building site using his biceps to lay bricks not a crime.
just have it licencd and managed.
EG in the UK building company need to certify their bricklayers and always have a foreman onsite. plus regular healthchecks
prostitutes have a licence and regular healthchecks and have a security guard onsite.

and to all other readers
just like my bell chime on car to warn pedestrians and other road users a drunk is nearby, and as a embarrassing thing to dter wanting to drive to bars.
what out of the box new punishments would you feel could b a effctive deterant that has not been done before but could/should be done

imagine the world of possibilities were open
even instead of paying $16k for 6month jail. you give someone $16k of college tuition or $16k of taxi fare tokns to that persons local bar to hand out to drunk people to get home safely

[darkangel11]

I agree with the above. Drunk driving should be punished but not with jail time. There's many other better ways, like breathalyzers connected to the ignition.
You can suspend their license, make them attend AA, retake the exam, pay a fine. As long as they don't kill anyone they shouldn't go to jail, and even if they do kill someone they shouldn't be put in the same jail with violent offenders.

I'm not against prostitution at all, just as I'm not against gambling, drugs, alcohol, and many other things.

A good way to reduce the cost of running prisons would be labor camps, where you're not forced to work, but rewarded for it. A prisoner would get only 3 basic meals a day and a bed to sleep on, but a working prisoner would get chips for which he'd be able to buy upgrades, like desserts, coffee, snacks, books, even a single cell. Nobody can force anyone to work, but give them rewards and they will support themselves.

A prison system in Sweden and Norway is very different from the one in the US but it works much better. They give their prisoners good food, a computer access, nice clean rooms with beds and closets, you could think poor people would want to get imprisoned, but somehow they don't. The incarcerated part of the population is much smaller than in the US, but the law is very similar. In Sweden operating a brothel is illegal and you can go to jail for it and the use of cannabis is illegal as well, so the law remains strict. The main difference is in the prison system, not the law itself.

[franky1]

I agree with the above. Drunk driving should be punished but not with jail time. There's many other better ways, like breathalyzers connected to the ignition.
You can suspend their license, make them attend AA, retake the exam, pay a fine. As long as they don't kill anyone they shouldn't go to jail, and even if they do kill someone they shouldn't be put in the same jail with violent offenders.

I'm not against prostitution at all, just as I'm not against gambling, drugs, alcohol, and many other things.

A good way to reduce the cost of running prisons would be labor camps, where you're not forced to work, but rewarded for it. A prisoner would get only 3 basic meals a day and a bed to sleep on, but a working prisoner would get chips for which he'd be able to buy upgrades, like desserts, coffee, snacks, books, even a single cell. Nobody can force anyone to work, but give them rewards and they will support themselves.

a prison skyscraper. with the first 2 floor as a mall for all the inmates to shop in (and work in)
college and library above that
with the next few floors as the laundry and kitchens (more work availability)
then the residential above that.
going from menial basic standards up to the penthouse exclusivity the higher you go

with it being self sustainable via the prisoners doing work and gaining experience, skills and training. aswell as earning a 'bonus' which can be used for luxuries in the shops or upgrade their cell to higher standards

[coolcoinz]

I have to say it looks like a great idea on paper. They'd climb the social ladder... literally.
Also, it would be easy to keep a tower like that secure. It would be enough to keep a few guards and make sure inmates are able to lock and unlock their rooms using a fingerprint or retinal scanner. They'd take care of everything buy themselves and those who wouldn't would go back to the basement and have fun in a room with no windows and eat oatmeal while the others get bacon and eggs.

[GideonGono]

Love God above all things and your neighbor as yourself.

*so love someone you have never met and has never talked to you personally (aww must be lonely)
*then cheat on your neighbours wife
*then and only then can you appreciate yourself

umm. nah no thanks. seems like a sad lonely lifestyle choice

but lts play a game badecker.
you own some land. someone walks on your land and does something you dont like. so you invite thm into your barn and ask them to explain thmselves and you and your neighbours decide if the man is worthy of being forgiven. or dserves something bad happening to them.

imagine its tresspassing on your land
imagine its driving their bigfoot truck over th top of your vehicle. you know driving on your property
imagine they walked up to you and gave you an invoice for $500 because your property took them 3 minutes walking time from fense to door to speak to you. which is taking their personal time off them

what would be your barn rules AND RESPONSIBILITIES in your farmland society of your property boundries
would you for instance ask them to seek your permission to use your property else be charged a fine

But you have met God. His Spirit rides along with you right next to your spirit, so close that you can barely tell the difference. If He didn't ride with you, you would be dead.

Because of God, because of the words and wisdom of God, He reduce the numerous evil inside our heart.  He saves us from death and evil by His words.  Think and imagine like an atheist who haven't any God, I want to ask on what they feel? as they relieve?

Imagine that your land suffer from evil and death by the surrounding, you can be saved by the glory of God.

[theymos]

Prison is a huge waste of both the government's money and the inmates' time, and it probably increases the chance of inmates committing more crimes.

First of all, victimless crimes are not real crimes and should not exist.

For most crimes, the sentence should be based entirely on the premise of getting the person not to commit the crimes anymore, based on a case-by-case analysis of the person. Often, prison shouldn't be necessary at all. For example, serial shoplifters could be sentenced to a period of having to wear a bodycam whenever in public so that they could be surveiled and prevented from stealing anything. This would be a huge invasion of privacy for them, of course, but it's better than prison. Psychological treatment may be appropriate in a lot of cases. Maybe in some cases it'd be appropriate to apply some corporal punishment (eg. "100 lashes"). Having someone languish in prison for years is pretty much the worst thing for everyone, including the prisoner; I'd definitely prefer 100 excruciatingly-painful lashes than a year in prison.

The above works in a state, but it's also in-line with my anarcho-capitalist ideal. In an ancap society, prison would be a service of your protection agency, operating a bit like insurance. Typically, such prisons would have the goal of protecting you from retaliation from the people you harmed, convincing society that you are no longer a risk after you get out, and preventing you and the protection agency from bearing costs of further crimes. So typical ancap prisons would be rehabilitation-oriented, not "lock up for x years"-oriented.

I don't actually think that this would be good in any way, and I'm not advocating for it, but I've thought that it'd be rational from the US's perspective to offer inmates convicted of certain non-violent crimes the option of reducing their sentence by serving it in the military. The military is already set up as something of a brainwashing machine, and having some less-precious troops would give the military more flexibility. The US faces a problem now in that they're only ever willing to dedicate handfuls of troops to most places because they're terrified that there'll be a massacre of hundreds of troops, which would be a PR disaster. "US penal brigade wiped out" sounds bad, but it's quite a bit better than "thousands of brave US servicemen massacred."

[audaciousbeing]

having seen prison systems fail to punish people due to re-offer rates
having seen prison systems fail common sense by giving smaller crimes harsher times.. and harsher crimes smaller times

knowing the costs of incarcerations costing alot ($£30k a year per inmate in many cases)

what views do people have for a better system
would it be instead of putting people with drug/alcohol issues where no other person was harmed. put into rehab
would it be for financial crimes people made to repay financially.
EG made to do volunteer work for just $500 a month social security($£6k) and the other $£24k going back to victims

i think what im basically saying is if you know it can cost $£30k a yar for punishment. how many years would a particular crimes punishment deserve being spent on it. and what 'service' (cells,rehab,community,other) would you spend the funds on

so imagine you had your own island/continent and had the ability to write the laws and consequences. what would they be

What you have proposed is more of restitution than punishment for ones offence. I have read cases whereby someone charged was sent to rehab while others were sent to do community work as a form of restitution to the society but really some offences goes beyond restitution as there is need to ensure that some examples are set to deter such action. The £30k you have mentioned is high yes but its low compared to the cost of taking someone off the street. Imagine a drug lord whose network have sent several young people to their early graves as a result of drug abuse, several who are already in rehab facilities costing the society money to maintain, others on the verge of suicide. These young souls being destroyed could eventually be some of the brightest mind the society could produce but wasted because of someone quest to make profit. I think keeping that kind of individual off the street is safer than for him to be outside and get to run his business.

[franky1]

I don't actually think that this would be good in any way, and I'm not advocating for it, but I've thought that it'd be rational from the US's perspective to offer inmates convicted of certain non-violent crimes the option of reducing their sentence by serving it in the military. The military is already set up as something of a brainwashing machine, and having some less-precious troops would give the military more flexibility. The US faces a problem now in that they're only ever willing to dedicate handfuls of troops to most places because they're terrified that there'll be a massacre of hundreds of troops, which would be a PR disaster. "US penal brigade wiped out" sounds bad, but it's quite a bit better than "thousands of brave US servicemen massacred."

id not advocating teaching petty criminals to then become gun friendly and ok with killing another. after all the PTSD of servicemen already isnt good.
because its like being locked up for stealing a bottle of vodka. and then getting trained up on how to rob a bank at gunpoint

but the severe criminals that were already ok with killing. well. put them on the front line and make that the 'death row'

but yes for the other parts about petty crimes prison is the wrong place, because while in prison inmates talk and some end up endocrinating others into forming gangs and learning new criminally larger skills..

also to add
the military employment is not just to put a gun in a guys hands and teach him to shoot. many servicemen have office jobs, are mechanics, chef's, pilots and never get to have a gun in their hand pointing towards an enemy. so some of the 'non violent' offenders could be trained to be mechanics, intel specialists and cooks

[Mometaskers]

It's hard to find a balance but ideally heinous crime would have a heavy enough punishment while petty crimes like shoplifting would get less. Personally I think some crimes are worthy of a capital punishment.

It'll also be beneficial if prisons are "tiered". The problem with lumping everyone together is they learn from each other. Someone who stole a pack of gums and stayed in prison for too long will know people in there and get introduced to gangs/syndicates.

This leaves us with white collar crimes. I want those punished more severely. They might not have committed physical harm against an individual but the harm they cause to society can be massive. I want them getting community service in addition to prison time to shame them. 

One thing I haven't made up my mind is working for prison time. It can cut back the time spent in prison but it's possible that it'll get abused and they'd just arrest more people for free labor. 

Prison is a huge waste of both the government's money and the inmates' time, and it probably increases the chance of inmates committing more crimes.

I agree with that last one. Some would go from petty to heinous crimes.

As for the 100 lashes some decry it as inhumane but if I'll be asked, I'd rather have scars and not walk for a few days than stay in jail for 10 years. Also the lashes are not met out in one day, they don't want to kill the inmate, else they would have just given it the beheading.

[franky1]

This leaves us with white collar crimes. I want those punished more severely. They might not have committed physical harm against an individual but the harm they cause to society can be massive. I want them getting community service in addition to prison time to shame them.  

id see this as complex.
for instance, running a 'money service business without a licence' - punishment upto $5k fine per violation
to a common person that does local exchanges of ~$100 at a 1% fee thats 5000 transactions to pay  fine. but those 5000 transactions cause 5000 fines meaning $25m in fines

to a institution thats just a 1% fee on a $500k transaction. so by doing transactions of $1m+ they actually make money while breaking the law and not having to be regulated

this is why big businesses get away with alot of crimes because they just treat fines as a value added cost of doing business
whilst the 'little people' get stuck in a cycle they cant escape from leading to further punishments for not being able to pay fines

[Mometaskers]

This leaves us with white collar crimes. I want those punished more severely. They might not have committed physical harm against an individual but the harm they cause to society can be massive. I want them getting community service in addition to prison time to shame them.  

this is why big businesses get away with alot of crimes because they just treat fines as a value added cost of doing business
whilst the 'little people' get stuck in a cycle they cant escape from leading to further punishments for not being able to pay fines.

100% agreed. Not only are some laws unclear, they can hire the best lawyers to jump around loopholes. And even if they were found guilty, sometimes the amount earned is still higher than the fine that it can be viewed as operation cost. I remember Youtube only got a slap on the wrist for the children's data leak. An individual doing that would have landed in prison.

I don't know the actual laws but Ponzis most can agree are illegal. I think those caught should be subjected to humiliation by making them face their victims a few times a week for hours. Sure they get prison time but often the money cannot be recovered and likely they'll just use it after getting out of prison. Or it already is funding something shady.