Vape Products Shouldn't be Banned

[squatz1]

We've all seen in the news in the US for the last couple months that all these different vape products and vape flavors are being put under increased scrutiny and being banned because of myths and misunderstandings put out by people.

This is while 480,000 people die annually due to cigarettes and only a handful of people have died from vape products -- which were illegally sourced THC concentrate vape products. Not even products such as JUUL, and other nicotine vape products.

Everyone and their mothers knows that its much safer to just use nicotine and nicotine products such as JUUL instead of smoking cigarettes. Cigarettes are beyond horrible for you. People are peddled this lie that JUUL might be worse for you then Cigs.

And the honest answer is we don't know yet as we don't know the long term effects. BUT -- if we already know that Cigs are horrible for you and we haven't had any issues with E-Cigs in their decade or so on the marketplace then I think I know which one we should go with.

Yes the Government should impose their regulations and their taxes on these products -- but come on guys lets fucking fix the problem of smoking and use E-Cigs to ease people off of Cigs instead of just pushing them back towards the worst legal product known to man.

[o_e_l_e_o]

This is while 480,000 people die annually due to cigarettes and only a handful of people have died from vape products -- which were illegally sourced THC concentrate vape products.

This is a false equivalence. Cigarettes have been around for over 100 years and there are a billion people who smoke them. Vaping has been around for 10 years and has a few million users. Most of the deaths from smoking come from diseases like lung cancer or COPD which can take years or decades to develop. It will be many years before the health risks of vaping are fully understood.

Furthermore, there have indeed been deaths from vaping which were using purely nicotine products and not THC products.

Everyone and their mothers knows that its much safer to just use nicotine and nicotine products such as JUUL instead of smoking cigarettes.

Sure, cigarettes are full of numerous horrible additives, but there are plenty of additives in vaping liquids and oils which aren't present in cigarettes and we have very little data for.

People are peddled this lie that JUUL might be worse for you then Cigs.

They might be. You can't say they aren't because we don't have the data yet.

And the honest answer is we don't know yet as we don't know the long term effects.

Exactly.

I don't think vaping products should be banned, because I don't think any drugs should be illegal. You should be free to put whatever you want in your own body provided you don't infringe on anybody else's rights while doing so, and you are fully prepared to pay for the (often very expensive) consequences, not least of them being the health problems. But don't go fooling yourself in to think that these products are safe

[rosezionjohn]

The move to ban vaping is not just happening in the US. It's also being pushed from where I'm from.

We all know that cigarettes are addictive, how about vape products?

 

[squatz1]

This is while 480,000 people die annually due to cigarettes and only a handful of people have died from vape products -- which were illegally sourced THC concentrate vape products.

This is a false equivalence. Cigarettes have been around for over 100 years and there are a billion people who smoke them. Vaping has been around for 10 years and has a few million users. Most of the deaths from smoking come from diseases like lung cancer or COPD which can take years or decades to develop. It will be many years before the health risks of vaping are fully understood.

Furthermore, there have indeed been deaths from vaping which were using purely nicotine products and not THC products.

Everyone and their mothers knows that its much safer to just use nicotine and nicotine products such as JUUL instead of smoking cigarettes.

Sure, cigarettes are full of numerous horrible additives, but there are plenty of additives in vaping liquids and oils which aren't present in cigarettes and we have very little data for.

People are peddled this lie that JUUL might be worse for you then Cigs.

They might be. You can't say they aren't because we don't have the data yet.

And the honest answer is we don't know yet as we don't know the long term effects.

Exactly.

I don't think vaping products should be banned, because I don't think any drugs should be illegal. You should be free to put whatever you want in your own body provided you don't infringe on anybody else's rights while doing so, and you are fully prepared to pay for the (often very expensive) consequences, not least of them being the health problems. But don't go fooling yourself in to think that these products are safe

I think the biggest takeaway here is that the FDA is failing to regulate the space properly. Instead of doing proper testing on vape products, or ensuring that these random vape products follow the rules -- they just put an all out order to ban things (or a recommendation rather)

Vape products, when properly regulated, ensuring that the juices used aren't as harmful as cigarettes (or something along those lines) are a medical phenomenen and can be used to ease people off of cigarettes.

It's not even the fact that Cigs have been around for so long -- it's that we already know that they're bad and they're killing people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVM3M3o2Nao

Check this video out -- it's about how the FDA was going to endorse vaping but then stopped due to the fact that kids were getting hooked on ecigs. It's a great watch.

[franky1]

people need to be aware that there is a mega differnce between e-cig and e-liquids(vapes)

e-cig is usually just nicotine water
e-liquid (vapes) are a mix of many things
and its these 'many things' that does need to be looked at

maybe not ban. but atleast ensure there is some quality standards and limiting of potency/chemical mix
i have sen a few people who would never smoke weed. but thn think a vape is just a vape and try thc or cbd oils and think nothing of it.. later they act like typical druggie stereotypes of people hooked on weed

as for other chemicals. stuff like 'popcorn lung' (sugar collecting in lungs) is a real harm and can harm someone faster than cigarette tar or asbestos

[o_e_l_e_o]

Vape products, when properly regulated, ensuring that the juices used aren't as harmful as cigarettes (or something along those lines) are a medical phenomenen and can be used to ease people off of cigarettes.

We don't know that though. Many smoking related diseases take decades to develop. On top of that, many of these diseases - heart attacks, strokes, cancers - occur frequently in non smokers too. We would need huge amounts of data over 30+ years to be able to say "These products aren't as harmful as cigarettes". That data simply doesn't exist. What we do know is that these things are filled with a variety of new and untested chemicals, and people using them have died as a direct result. If cigarettes were invented for the first time today, I have no doubt the FDA would ban them too.

I'm not saying I agree with their stance (I don't), but I understand the reasons they are taking it. We have no idea if these are better, as bad as, or potentially even worse, than cigarettes.

[mu_enrico]

The one that caused the problem wasn't the PG/VG liquid one, but THC liquid, especially junk product mixed with Vitamin E acetate. I think Tobacco companies use this momentum to pressure the regulator.

Nevertheless, if the government ban e-juice, it's not a big deal. You could mix it by yourself. It is really easy I made my own e-juice for years, and still alive.

[Aveatrex]

We would need huge amounts of data over 30+ years to be able to say "These products aren't as harmful as cigarettes". That data simply doesn't exist. /quote]

I totally disagree with you,we can already predict with the few data we have today that vaping is a lot less harmful than cigarettes just by comparing their ingredients.E-cigs have at most 5 different ingredients while cigarettes contain more than 600 ingredients,most of them known to be harmful.I'm not saying that vaping is totally safe,but for a smoker,going for vaping instead is totally worth it.

What we do know is that these things are filled with a variety of new and untested chemicals, and people using them have died as a direct result.

Why regulated e-cigs in europe haven't caused any death? Simply because e-cigs doesn't and shouldn't contain oils that cause respiratory failure.In the US,because of the unregulated market,vendors started selling juices that contain THC and other stuff,this is different because CBD and THC are not water soluble,you have to add oil in them in order to be vaped that's why people died from these.Conclusion:juices must be REGULATED and not banned.

[Mbatu]

I think Big Tobacco is one of the chief forces behind banning vaping.
Real life cases, I have two friends who used to smoke 1-2 packs a day.
They are both nerds, so when vaping came out, they for into vaping because it was kind of a game.
They would mix their own mixtures, chose amount of nicotine, flavors, etc.
This gave them a nerd feel, and control of what goes into what they smoke.
This has been going for years, they vape much less than they used to smoke.
They do not smoke at all, just vape.
Their clothes are not soaked with stink, their friends enjoy their company more, their health is better.
People around them do not suffer from second hand smoke.
Thats 2 people not smoking 1-2 packs a day, EVERY DAY, having effect on Big Tobacco bottom line.
I have a really hard time buying into banning vapes.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I totally disagree with you,we can already predict with the few data we have today that vaping is a lot less harmful than cigarettes just by comparing their ingredients.

Yeah, that's not how science or medicine works. Everyone thought thalidomide was totally safe based on a small amount of data, and then thousands of children were born with horrendous birth defects.

E-cigs have at most 5 different ingredients while cigarettes contain more than 600 ingredients,most of them known to be harmful.

I'll concede they contain fewer ingredients than cigarettes (more than 5, though), but that does not make them inherently safer. There has also been very little studying of what these compounds break down to or combine to form when heated. There are ingredients which aren't present in cigarettes at all such as diacetyl, which can cause fatal lung diseases such as bronchiolitis obliterans, a disease that is not linked to smoking cigarettes.

Why regulated e-cigs in europe haven't caused any death?

They have. European countries have heterogeneous reporting methods (and some have no reporting system at all), so the data is incomplete when compared to the US. But there categorically have been severe illnesses and deaths:
https://casereports.bmj.com/content/2018/bcr-2018-224350
https://www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l5275
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/09/30/death-factory-worker-first-britain-linked-vaping/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/14/first-belgian-death-linked-vaping-teen-given-e-cigarette-18th/
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/vaping-death-lipoid-pneumonia-17005080

[Mbatu]

I totally disagree with you,we can already predict with the few data we have today that vaping is a lot less harmful than cigarettes just by comparing their ingredients.

Yeah, that's not how science or medicine works. Everyone thought thalidomide was totally safe based on a small amount of data, and then thousands of children were born with horrendous birth defects.

E-cigs have at most 5 different ingredients while cigarettes contain more than 600 ingredients,most of them known to be harmful.

I'll concede they contain fewer ingredients than cigarettes (more than 5, though), but that does not make them inherently safer. There has also been very little studying of what these compounds break down to or combine to form when heated. There are ingredients which aren't present in cigarettes at all such as diacetyl, which can cause fatal lung diseases such as bronchiolitis obliterans, a disease that is not linked to smoking cigarettes.

Why regulated e-cigs in europe haven't caused any death?

They have. European countries have heterogeneous reporting methods (and some have no reporting system at all), so the data is incomplete when compared to the US. But there categorically have been severe illnesses and deaths:
https://casereports.bmj.com/content/2018/bcr-2018-224350
https://www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l5275
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/09/30/death-factory-worker-first-britain-linked-vaping/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/14/first-belgian-death-linked-vaping-teen-given-e-cigarette-18th/
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/vaping-death-lipoid-pneumonia-17005080

...and by the way I am not saying that vaping is great, just that it helped to get two of my good friends off chain smoking death sticks

[Carlton Banks]

Yes the Government should impose their regulations and their taxes on these products -- but come on guys lets fucking fix the problem of smoking and use E-Cigs to ease people off of Cigs instead of just pushing them back towards the worst legal product known to man.

it won't make any difference anyway, because banning anything has never in the history of banning things succeeded. Never.

And smokers don't care about your argument. People who continued to smoke cigarettes instead of vaping say things like "vaping... it's all clean and clinical, who fucking wants that? I smoke cos I want that dirty smell on my fingers, if I wanted to be clean I'd start eating salad, become a buddhist and buy oxygen tanks"

Using a logical argument usually doesn't make sense when people want to be considered wrong or bad They KNOW it's wrong, and they like it that way. It's a kind of masochism, which is why I'm partly (PARTLY) onboard with one aspect of the Bernie Sanders lobby: abolition of prison. Alot of people in prison sort of want to be there for complicated and fucked up psychological reasons, the only people that arguably need to be there are (a) very small proportion of dangerously violent people (b) politicians, corporate CEOs and military top brass who aren't stupid enough to wind up in prison under any circumstances. Of course the Bernie people screw it all up by saying that it should be replaced with "rehabilitation", which is going to be the exact same prison system rebranded with "social conscience" or whatever. I don't see why we should pay for people to be housed & fed (or "rehabilitated") when getting punished for anything is actually what they want or need in some deeply psychologically screwy way

[LTU_btc]

I agree with your thoughts OP. Banning vape products would be overkill. Vaping probably is less harmful than smoking. So, if e-cigarettes would be banned, it would mean that most people who wape now would switch to cigarettes. Do they really want that? It's obvious that e-cigarettes isn't saint, but sometimes I feel that this negative attitude in media against it is sponsored by tobacco industry.
I also support thing like taxes and more strict regulations. Because current situation is simply ridiculous. On every corner I see 12 year old kids vaping - they can buy vaping products without any restrictions.
Also, I would like to hear your thoughts about IQOS. I haven't tried it, but from what I understand it stands between traditional and e-cigarettes?

[inanilujimi]

The move to ban vaping is not just happening in the US. It's also being pushed from where I'm from.

We all know that cigarettes are addictive, how about vape products?

 

Just like vape cigarettes also addictive to the wearer.
I as an active vape user feel that vape is the solution for me to stop smoking, because the content of cigarettes contains a lot of toxins and has been proven to cause many diseases in our body, while vape has not yet been proven scientifically proven to damage the body, so why should users are prohibited from consuming it !!

[Carlton Banks]

vape has not yet been proven scientifically proven to damage the body, so why should users are prohibited from consuming it !!

why should it make a difference whether it's healthy or not?


if tax policy setters get to decide what you should and shouldn't do, is there any real point in calling your life yours? whose life are you living, if all your decisions are already made for you? there's no point in us being separate people if we have our range of choices constantly eroded closer to zero.

Where's all the creative thinking that we really need going to come from if the biggest inspiration in your life is "why can't these people leave us all alone, I'm being healthy, I'm being a good slave, can't you find a reason to pick on someone else? "

Why don't you find the inspiration to stand up and refuse, instead? You only have one life, why spend it afraid of bullies? Why waste the one chance you've got to do the right thing, just because it's easier to back down?

[TECSHARE]

This whole vape scare is about the tax revenue the state is not collecting on standard tobacco products. This is all to justify taxing vape products just like tobacco.

[akram143]

Many DIY experiments between vape and cigarettes proves that smoking cigarette is 10 times more harmful for our lungs compared to vaping.If every smoker turned into vapers then how all these cigarette manufacturers will live so they will influence any governments to ban the products then they can sell them for more price then before.Government also has advantage of allowing cigarette like getting high tax for every cigarette getting sold in their country.

[Sadlife]

This is so sad i never thought that the government would ban a product that doesn't contain any chemical due to misunderstandings. I thought vape was a revolutionary product that could finally stop the use of cigarettes and even cause smokers to stop. Honestly they're all acting in assumptions right now where in fact vape haven't killed anybody but that was cause by cigarettes that contains nicotine. Why dont they conduct an experiment to see which is dangerous towards human health ?

[Carlton Banks]

Honestly they're all acting in assumptions right now where in fact vape haven't killed anybody but that was cause by cigarettes that contains nicotine. Why dont they conduct an experiment to see which is dangerous towards human health ?

nicotine damages cardio-vascular tissue, it makes arteries less flexible in response to increased bloodflow

forget about the whole "vaping is healthy" angle, you're pretty much begging to be "helped" by government intervention that way

[BADecker]

Essentially nothing is banned in a correctly formed Private Membership Association (PMA).

Government is for directing the public. Private, as long as nobody is harmed, is outside of the pervue of governmental regulation. PMAs are set up based on Constitution, Amendments, and 70 Supreme Court cases that bar government from regulating private activities done in private. Again, there must be full disclosure of dangers involved with whatever activity the PMA does. But the government must show clear, provable dangers to uninformed members of the PMA before it becomes a public thing.

Google and Yuotube search on "Private Membership Association."