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Author Topic: Nazis were socialists - Change my mind  (Read 1424 times)
iluvbitcoins (OP)
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December 11, 2019, 11:16:26 PM
 #21

However, they were socialists and openly advocated for socialism, just not the Marx type of socialism. They were building their own.
He's not the only socialist on the planet, he's just the one who inspired communism.

Ok then maybe put your definition of socialism then.

Because talking about a socialism "but not the one of Marx" would actually make the stupid argument "that was not real socialism" a valid argument you understand that?

Marx defined socialism, anyone talking today about socialism refers to Marx's idea. It's only logical to assume that when you use a word you use the most widely spread meaning of the word and not an obscure definition used 100 years ago.

Maybe that with your definition of socialism Nazis could be considered socialists, who knows?

No, socialism is collective control of large-scale production.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Marx_socialists
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_socialism#Origins_of_socialism

Quote
So, one of the big reasons that Hitler had referred to this as Socialism was an attempt to sway working class voters (a large part of the German voting bloc) to his camp. As said above, the most popular socialist thinkers had been from Germany.

One could say the same about nationalism.
One of the big reasons that Hitler had referred to this as Nationalist was an attempt to sway WW1 veterans to his camp.
Which is true as well, but doesn't change the fact he was a nationalist and that the party was indeed socialist.

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not just racist,

racist and nationalist.

but the questions is what are you what is the alternative?

enslaving yourself to the financial elite of the british empire?

shall the entire world be enslaved to royalty and a banking cartel?

what do you want?

I want free markets.

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December 11, 2019, 11:37:07 PM
 #22

The NSDAP wasn't the first nationalsocialist party in the Reich.
It was the first one in Austria, not in the Reich.

The first nationalsocialist party in the Reich was the
German Socialist Party

For many,many years Hitlers NSDAP struggled to obtain members, and could never reach anything even near to the membership size of the German Socialist Party. The GSP was the most popular nationalsocialist party in the Reich almost until the time it fell apart in 1922 when almost all members of the German Socialist Party move to Hitlers National Socialist Workers Party.

You can read their statute as well
https://www.docdroid.net/G3dBffx/german-socialist-party.pdf


They demand
Quote
Free land, since the cancerous harm afflicting the national economy [Volkswirtschaft] as well as the economies of home, business, and even the individual folk-comrade, derives from rent charges. The indebtedness of the German soil (100 billion before the War) brings all social and economic evils in its wake: tenement buildings, housing distress, infant mortality, national epidemics, poverty, crime, growing mob mentality [Verpöbelung], and national disintegration [Volkszersetzung]. This can be remedied by means of declaring German land as state property beyond private ownership, i.e. that the sale of land and soil from private hands to private hands is in future to be barred. Land is to lose its character as a commodity. A characteristic of commodities is their replaceability. Soil, however, is irreplaceable. Anybody who wants to or has to sell can only do so to the community. The community issues land to interested parties as Zeitpacht or Erbpacht.2 Thereupon land may no longer be used to raise capital in future. It will be declared debt-free [unbelastbar]. Accordingly, a personal loan will be raised as opposed to today’s mortgage loan. All current mortgages, where it is not the case already, are to be declared non-terminable short-term direct reduction mortgages [Tilgungshypotheken], reducing the rate of interest. In this manner German land is gradually freed and a truly generous settlement is reached. Even the simplest man will once again be able to live on his own plot in his own small house. The emergence of supercapitalism derives from the previous liberalization in sale of, and yield capacity of, the soil. With free land there is no supercapitalism.

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Nationalization of the monetary system. Our finances are in the hands of private individuals, particularly Jews and other international people. That is an absurdity in itself, since money is the blood of the national body of the Volk [Volkskörpers]. The state as the representative of the people can only really govern if it possesses power of disposal4 over money and finance. Today money too has been alienated from and deprived of its purpose of being a convenient means of exchange between labor and wage, goods and purchase price, between producer and consumer. Money today instead serves as a means of generating more money again and again through banking-practices and stock-jobbing, without any real work involved. Our true savings- and credit-institutes must become nationalized banks, eliminating the obscene profits of the shareholders as well as the princely salaries of the directors and the royalties of the supervisory boards. We demand a Reich Economic Council5 to examine the reestablishment of the banks and enterprises in relation to the real requirements and welfare of the community. Future creditworthiness will no longer extend to property, but to people. From this it follows that, as in the past, business will be built upon the competency, reliability, and honesty of the individual, by which the requisite tranquility and organic growth will be brought to our economy.

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The stock market game is rejected as harmful and unnecessary, since trading in assets is to be prohibited. Our currency is to be redesigned. Unending interest, which has as its premise the immoral interpretation of capital’s immortality so cunningly devised by its inventors and guardians, is superseded through a service of interest payments gradually replacing the capital. This would put an end once and for all to the interest-slavery originating out of the Orient.

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5. Breaking up of our large estates for the purposes of settlement, according to the yield capacity of the individual territories.
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12. Protection of the German worker against foreign labour, which depresses the German worker’s wages and standard of living.

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The German Socialist Party is a party of the financially-weak layers of the Volk, i.e. the workers, civil servants, shop-assistants, artisans, small-businessmen and peasants, the teachers, settlers,6 technicians. He who sees things clearly joins us without hesitation. False Jewish-socialism and the interest-economy must be as chaff before the wind.

Quote
Outline for the Founding of a
German Socialist Party
on a Jew-free and Capital-free Foundation

Quote
Merely the form of government and the men in charge have changed, while capitalism and Jewry will rear their heads higher than ever under democracy. As before, you, the German Volk, will be leeched dry, plundered and condemned to toil and worry. How did it come to this, and shall it remain this way forever? The cause of this failure lies in the fact that the struggle against these two powers has hitherto been conducted separately. Yet both are intimately connected.

Social-democracy only engages in a mock-fight against capitalism, for its leaders are Jews and capitalists!

Yet the Jew-experts1 struggle in vain against Jewry because they stand firmly on the ground of the capitalist state order, so both they and social-democracy are bound to fail.

The change required to finally establish real freedom for the German Volk is to form a German Socialist Party.

Quote
Lassalle, the founder of German social-democracy, must as a Jew have known his racial-comrades [Rassegenossen] well when he said: “A popular movement has to keep its distance from capitalists and Jews where they appear as directors and leaders, and instead pursue its own aims.”

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however, the party does not want a Western-style democracy with a Jewish-plutocratic apex, but a free Peoples’ State [Volksstaat] in which capitalism and Jewry are overcome.

Quote
Until now capitalism and Jewry have stood in the way of such reforms.

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being instead quite anti-capitalist and Jew-free [Judenrein]. It allows itself to be guided solely by the welfare of the whole, and strives for a far more even distribution of vital commodities and for the recovery and revival of the Germans, whose folk-strength [Volkskraft] has been so gravely afflicted. But it is not through a fresh revolution or abrupt change that new conditions will be striven for 

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December 11, 2019, 11:41:29 PM
 #23

A nazi is just a racist commie.
I'll argument my position as a replica to the replies.





well thats a big difference then, you could then also say a kingdom is just a dictatorship with a religion,

in a democracy like the us you could say its a dictatorship with banks as dictators, that distribute access to consumption capacities etc.

the big problem about communism is that after a while it also has its power centres and oligarchies,

usually can be seen in form of banking cartels,

like the chinse banking cartel printing yuan, euro banking cartel printing euros, and future ingsoc banking cartel printing ingsoc dollar as a mark of the english socialism.

they all claim to be communists then, and the banking cartels pay policemen, soldiers, etc. for their work, to do the stuff the people running companies need.

form the perspective of someone running for example a textile factory you need a power holder running the system.

regards

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December 11, 2019, 11:43:36 PM
 #24

A nazi is just a racist commie.
I'll argument my position as a replica to the replies.


well thats a big difference then, you could then also say a kingdom is just a dictatorship with a religion,

Why would a kingdom need to have a religion?

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December 11, 2019, 11:51:48 PM
 #25

A nazi is just a racist commie.
I'll argument my position as a replica to the replies.


well thats a big difference then, you could then also say a kingdom is just a dictatorship with a religion,

Why would a kingdom need to have a religion?

because thats how kings are,

a king can't rule without divine support.

king and divinity is inseperable except you mean those nasty biological kingdoms instead of the spiritual kingdom.

maybee i should have said a kingdom is a theistic dictatorship as many people consider nationalism as some kind of religion, and communism as a religion created by atheists

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December 12, 2019, 12:02:19 AM
 #26

Any ideology is a religion in some sence. If a common man or politician chooses to follow one, he or she accepts its rigid axioms and hierarchies and then acts like they are the truth. This is built in feature of every human being and is hard (though worth) fighting against
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December 12, 2019, 12:02:59 AM
 #27

Any ideology is a religion in some sence. If a common man or politician chooses to follow one, he or she accepts its rigid axioms and hierarchies and then acts like they are the truth. This is built in feature of every human being and is hard (though worth) fighting against

religion are rules for a way of live, thats much more, than just an opinion(ideology)

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December 12, 2019, 12:10:03 AM
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 #28

Any ideology is a religion in some sence. If a common man or politician chooses to follow one, he or she accepts its rigid axioms and hierarchies and then acts like they are the truth. This is built in feature of every human being and is hard (though worth) fighting against

They are both forms of belief systems to some extent. They are both frames of references for putting metrics on, understanding, and interacting with the world. One thing that atheists often don't seem to understand is even if you don't logically believe in God, the part of your brain that revolves around religion and faith is still there, and is filled with secular rather than religious concepts. This is one of the primary reasons communism and socialism are so hostile to religion, because they seek to occupy the position of God. Without God there is nothing above the state, thus the state becomes God.
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December 12, 2019, 02:14:07 AM
 #29

We need to get to a point where we can look past labels. When you only look at one label and make connections based on that, you're stereotyping.  Its how the human brain is wired because our ancestors didn't have education and had to make quick judgements on the fly.  The last angry rhino gored someone so this angry rhino will probably gore someone type decisions.  

I think calling nazis socialists is a stretch  but its at least its debatable so what if we just concede that they are socialists? So what? It would be more precise to simply describe their systems specifically instead of with a generic label.  Why don't you lay out the things they did that you have a problem with and the things they did that you like?

 Do we hate nazis because they were socialists or because they were fascists?
Do we hate nazis because of their economic system of ownership or because of their racist social policies and goal to exterminate jews?

I would say the same about nationalism.  Was their nationalism bad because being proud of your nation and wanting to do well is inherently bad? or was it bad because of the 25 point system? or was it just a few points? or was it because they used violence to attack other nations?

In conclusion, its more clear when you are specific about what you are talking about than hiding behind general terms for which everyone has differing definitions.
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December 12, 2019, 11:00:56 AM
Last edit: December 12, 2019, 11:47:04 AM by iluvbitcoins
 #30

Here's some more info

Strasser thought the party is moving away from it's anti-capitalist roots so he published a suggestion that Goebells himself revisioned.
It was criticized for being too mild.
You can view it here.
https://www.docdroid.net/gmaxz0l/strasserov-program.pdf

Quote
Holdings larger than 1,000 Morgen are to be divided into small holdings of 50 to 200 Morgen, after each man of Germannationality who has been an agricultural labourer on the property has been compensated with 2 Morgen. –Generous land consolidation.

Quote
All businesses which on a stated day in the past employed twenty or more employees are to be converted into joint stock companies.

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For all joint stock companies, ownership of 51 percent of those in group 2.a will be turned over to the general public; 49 percent of those in group 2.b. Ownership willbe transferred to the general public in the following distributions:Group2.a.: Reich 30%, Workforce 10%, Region 6%, District 5%.Group 2.b.: Reich 30%, Workforce 10%, Region 5%, District 4%

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Inheritance taxes (excluding direct descendants and antecedents); distribution rates Reich 4/7, Region 2/7, District 1/7

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a.)Compulsory combination of the farmers into local cooperatives, and of these cooperatives into district cooperatives under the supervision of the Chamber of Agriculture. b.)Prohibition of free sale of agricultural products, sale only to the cooperative.c.)Combination of members of the finishing trades (butchers, millers, bakers, etc.) in compulsory guilds (see C.1).d.)Conclusion of direct delivery contracts between these producers’ cooperatives and the guilds or large direct consumers’ cooperatives

Quote
The employees in each of these industrial enterprises are to be grouped in a works-union [Werksgemeinschaft] which will receive 10 percent of the stock of the company.

Quote
.)Those businesses or individuals who employ fewer than 20 are to be grouped by law in compulsory guilds

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Present-day properties, up to a size of 1,000 Morgen (productivity level I [Bonität I]), may remainas hereditary holdings as long as there is a male heir in the family who is able and willing to carry on the hereditary obligations

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1.)Land and soil are the property of the nation! (Buildings count as assets. Assets remain private property.)

Quote
State Domains [i.e. ‘crown land’] are not to be divided, and instead are to be set up as model farms managed by administrators under the control of the Regional Chambers, not leased

Quote
The newly-created small holdings can only be leased as entails on behalf of the Reich

Quote
they will be bonded to the soil by a lease-free granting of 2 Morgen of good local land

-----

We need to get to a point where we can look past labels. When you only look at one label and make connections based on that, you're stereotyping.  Its how the human brain is wired because our ancestors didn't have education and had to make quick judgements on the fly.  The last angry rhino gored someone so this angry rhino will probably gore someone type decisions.  

I think calling nazis socialists is a stretch  but its at least its debatable so what if we just concede that they are socialists? So what? It would be more precise to simply describe their systems specifically instead of with a generic label.  Why don't you lay out the things they did that you have a problem with and the things they did that you like?

 Do we hate nazis because they were socialists or because they were fascists?
Do we hate nazis because of their economic system of ownership or because of their racist social policies and goal to exterminate jews?

I would say the same about nationalism.  Was their nationalism bad because being proud of your nation and wanting to do well is inherently bad? or was it bad because of the 25 point system? or was it just a few points? or was it because they used violence to attack other nations?

In conclusion, its more clear when you are specific about what you are talking about than hiding behind general terms for which everyone has differing definitions.

People usually regard nationalsocialism and internationalsocialism as things that are on opposing sides of the spectre.
Extremene left and extreme right.

It's important for people to realize that both nationalsocialism and internationalsocialism are socialism.

They aren't opposing viewpoints. They're the same ideology of envy that believes people should be robbed just because they have more money. Even without the economy just look at the cult of the leader, propaganda, dictatorship, 1 man controlling everything, freedom of speech, gulags/camps.

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December 12, 2019, 11:02:47 AM
 #31



 Roll Eyes
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December 12, 2019, 11:53:29 AM
 #32

But they were nazis at first place. Who cares about all the rest?
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December 12, 2019, 12:04:42 PM
 #33

But they were nazis at first place. Who cares about all the rest?


Nazi is a made up term in recent time.
They are and were National Socialists.

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December 12, 2019, 01:58:50 PM
 #34

You already explained why Nazis aren't socialists.

You said Socialism is the collective control of large scale production.

Was there a collective control of large scale production under Nazis rule?

Answer is no. Thus they are not socialists.

I don't understand why you're not even seeing your own contradiction honestly Oo
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December 13, 2019, 06:31:14 PM
 #35

You already explained why Nazis aren't socialists.

You said Socialism is the collective control of large scale production.

Was there a collective control of large scale production under Nazis rule?

Answer is no. Thus they are not socialists.

I don't understand why you're not even seeing your own contradiction honestly Oo

Read this

Quote
Private ownership of the means of production existed in name only under the Nazis and that the actual substance of ownership of the means of production resided in the German government. For it was the German government and not the nominal private owners that exercised all of the substantive powers of ownership: it, not the nominal private owners, decided what was to be produced, in what quantity, by what methods, and to whom it was to be distributed, as well as what prices would be charged and what wages would be paid, and what dividends or other income the nominal private owners would be permitted to receive. The position of the alleged private owners was reduced essentially to that of government pensioners.

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December 13, 2019, 07:30:41 PM
 #36

The Socialists Leave the NSDAP!

https://www.docdroid.net/ChqmXJB/the-socialists-leave-the-nsdap.pdf

-----


Internationalsocialists and Nationalsocialists divide Europe


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-J_SLcBJL4&feature=emb_title

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYc7wZEmo-0&feature=emb_title

Notes from the videos:
Communists offers a secret deal to National Socialist Germany for a division of Europe
They split Poland. USSR takes Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania
Roosevelt considers USSR an Axis power
USSRs population is starving but they're sending grain and supplies to National Socialist Germany
Communists and National Socialists drink together
It's a crime to be against National Socialism in the USSR
Communists round up the Jews and deliver them to Hitler

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December 15, 2019, 08:17:02 AM
 #37

But they were nazis at first place. Who cares about all the rest?


Nazi is a made up term in recent time.
They are and were National Socialists.

I don't think the name is a good point of evidence to be using. I wouldn't say that the North Korean Government is democratic because their official name is 'Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea' Nothing about them is democratic nor for the people. Same thing with China I'm pretty sure.

The Nazis wanted to redefine Socialism, as I said before, they wanted to build a new system around the term socialism -- which was practically authoritarianism with private ownership, though you still had to work with the government or you'd be fucked -- think of something like China, which I think is a pretty good example of such government.

They're not socialists.




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December 15, 2019, 10:03:44 AM
 #38

But they were nazis at first place. Who cares about all the rest?


Nazi is a made up term in recent time.
They are and were National Socialists.

I don't think the name is a good point of evidence to be using. I wouldn't say that the North Korean Government is democratic because their official name is 'Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea' Nothing about them is democratic nor for the people. Same thing with China I'm pretty sure.

The Nazis wanted to redefine Socialism, as I said before, they wanted to build a new system around the term socialism -- which was practically authoritarianism with private ownership, though you still had to work with the government or you'd be fucked -- think of something like China, which I think is a pretty good example of such government.

They're not socialists.

Look at Squatz parroting Captain Postmodern talking points over here. Careful, next you will be telling me true Communism has never been tried because all the other times they tried it turned out to be massive genocidal failures.
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December 15, 2019, 04:07:32 PM
 #39

However, they were socialists and openly advocated for socialism, just not the Marx type of socialism. They were building their own.
He's not the only socialist on the planet, he's just the one who inspired communism.

Ok then maybe put your definition of socialism then.

Because talking about a socialism "but not the one of Marx" would actually make the stupid argument "that was not real socialism" a valid argument you understand that?

Marx defined socialism, anyone talking today about socialism refers to Marx's idea. It's only logical to assume that when you use a word you use the most widely spread meaning of the word and not an obscure definition used 100 years ago.

Maybe that with your definition of socialism Nazis could be considered socialists, who knows?

No, socialism is collective control of large-scale production.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Marx_socialists
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_socialism#Origins_of_socialism

Quote
So, one of the big reasons that Hitler had referred to this as Socialism was an attempt to sway working class voters (a large part of the German voting bloc) to his camp. As said above, the most popular socialist thinkers had been from Germany.

One could say the same about nationalism.
One of the big reasons that Hitler had referred to this as Nationalist was an attempt to sway WW1 veterans to his camp.
Which is true as well, but doesn't change the fact he was a nationalist and that the party was indeed socialist.

Quote
not just racist,

racist and nationalist.

but the questions is what are you what is the alternative?

enslaving yourself to the financial elite of the british empire?

shall the entire world be enslaved to royalty and a banking cartel?

what do you want?

I want free markets.

americans dont want free market, they want to sell their money,  they wouldn't therwise protest and sanction of europe buying much more competitive gas from russia, or products from china

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December 15, 2019, 04:21:52 PM
 #40

But they were nazis at first place. Who cares about all the rest?


Nazi is a made up term in recent time.
They are and were National Socialists.

I don't think the name is a good point of evidence to be using. I wouldn't say that the North Korean Government is democratic because their official name is 'Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea' Nothing about them is democratic nor for the people. Same thing with China I'm pretty sure.

The Nazis wanted to redefine Socialism, as I said before, they wanted to build a new system around the term socialism -- which was practically authoritarianism with private ownership, though you still had to work with the government or you'd be fucked -- think of something like China, which I think is a pretty good example of such government.

They're not socialists.

Look at Squatz parroting Captain Postmodern talking points over here. Careful, next you will be telling me true Communism has never been tried because all the other times they tried it turned out to be massive genocidal failures.

Heh.

I'm not one of those people that's going to argue that Venezuela isn't Socialism or anything along those lines. Or to say that the USSR isn't Communism. All of the tries of true socialism in the world have ended in the deaths of millions.

But it's just wrong to say that Nazis are socialist, because they aren't.




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