Bitcoin cannot be decentralized if the Internet is centralized

[airdnasxela]

Internet being centralized or decentralized is not really a problem here. Bitcoin is decentralized on its nature but one factor affecting it is the government who is centralized. Even if bitcoin is decentralized, since the government is higher, they can still control their people who's using Bitcoin. No one is controlling Bitcoin but the government can control people, which is the user of Bitcoin.

[darkangel11]

Lol,a bunch of people denying a stupid statement(the internet is centralized) just to sig spam.
Calm down people,there's no need to bump stupid threads again and again,all the time.

Haven't you just comment on the same thread, wearing a paid sig? Good job on getting a paid post without actually contributing to the discussion.

There are two ways of looking at it. Saying that internet is centralized isn't completely stupid.

The Internet access is largely centralized, same as search engines and what is transmitted by media outlets. One of them publishes FUD and suddenly they all repeat it without doing research. Its an example of brainwashed centralization.
At the same time Bitcoin is decentralized and so are forums and channels that allow people to communicate and share information.

[n0ne]

If there exist a controversy whether the internet is decentralized or centralized, there will be big confusion. From my view the way we make use of the internet will show it to be centralized or decentralized. We have darkweb that can be a way of decentralized usage. Until something can't be traced we can term internet to be decentralized.

[the rise]

ISPs and what has been mentioned need not be decentralized, they are only concerned with business matters, unless the government wants things that are more stringent but does not eliminate access completely, this seems excessive to me because financial freedom must also remain balanced with a system that is constantly adapting. The government will also definitely consider using bitcoin/crypto positively because they are already tired enough with inflation that will never end.

[Blitzboy]

It's no secret that in today's world, big companies like Google, Facebook, and even Amazon control the Internet.

Can you elaborate? As I know, the Internet network is still largely decentralized, and thanks to tools like encryption, ToR, VPN, proxies it's impossible to control users. It's impossible to make a "turn Bitcoin off" button, so I wouldn't worry about it. There are problems with lack of competition between Internet service providers in some places, but it doesn't have any strong implications for Bitcoin.

Agree with you! Basically, the internet is still decentralized, not only thanks to encryption tools but also by different vendors, no one really can control it, including global services. All the big companies can do is dominating user data and it's not an effect on Bitcoin, without any impact.

[target]

The government nor the big companies controlling the internet as you said such as google and Facebook wouldn't be shutting down the internet just to also shutdown the decentralization of BTC right?

The world are now depended to the inter connecting computers everywhere, the bank rely to internet and they can't afford to shut it a day just to deal with the decentralization of cryptocurrency, its best to just adopt as they can't do anything about it even if its centralized.

[rizkyalhabsy]

interesting , so how to make internet going decentralized ? , besides it , lets say satoshi know it, i mean internet is centralized , and he/she creating decentralized coin on centralising place and he/she seems have no worries about it , bitcoin still going alive until now and seems decentralized like the beginning, although now most exchange have a rules about KYC to buy bitcoin on their exchange.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

But the harsh reality is that every single cryptocurrency and Blockchain network depends on the Internet to survive.

That's not a harsh reality at all--it's been understood from the start, and it really doesn't matter all that much if bitcoin isn't an absolutely perfectly decentralized thing.  It's one thing to be dependent on the internet for it to work and quite another for the whole system to be controlled by a single entity, which bitcoin isn't.

So not a huge deal IMO.  Probably more of a concern in my mind would be China's dominance in the mining sphere, but I don't think that's even all that big a deal.

[kryptqnick]

Satoshi's invention of a revolutionary form of money that would give people control over their funds back in 2009 (Bitcoin), turned out to be a success. While the cryptocurrency's PoW consensus is partially centralized (mostly dominated by the Chinese), it has a wide distribution of nodes all across the globe. Theoretically speaking, Bitcoin is decentralized where anyone can set up a node to support the Blockchain. With enough capital, it's possible to secure Bitcoin in our homes with sophisticated ASIC machines too.

So far, many people believe that Bitcoin is truly decentralized as "no one" controls it. But the harsh reality is that every single cryptocurrency and Blockchain network depends on the Internet to survive. It's no secret that in today's world, big companies like Google, Facebook, and even Amazon control the Internet. On the other hand, ISPs (Internet Service Providers) have a final say over what people can view or host using the Internet. This means that Internet is centralized, greatly defeating the purpose of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies of eliminating the middleman.

For Bitcoin to be truly decentralized, the Internet needs to be decentralized first. Once that's done, you could expect to achieve financial freedom that's out of the scope of oppressive governments, central banks, and large corporations alike. Until then, Bitcoin and all other cryptocurrencies will be subject to the risks of the Internet's centralization for years to come.

What are your thoughts?

It's an interesting line of thought, but I disagree. For one, it's not like it's impossible to do Bitcoin without the Internet. There are already some projects allowing the use of satellites, for example. Secondly, Bitcoin is mainly related to the financial sector. It truly offers a system that depends on demand and supply and nothing else. In this sense, it's a free market. And Bitcoin is decentralized in terms of this price formation first of all. You're right that mining is hardly concentrated in the hands of big players, for instance, and that the Internet is not decentralized while being a medium for Bitcoin transactions. So I believe we can still say that Bitcoin is decentralized, but that it's just not fully decentralized.

[LeGaulois]

@bitmover
@hatshepsut93

How the internet is decentralized if we are not our own ISP provider, running our own hardware infrastructure, with open-source software, and so on. Perhaps I could add decentralized electricity is needed too lol. If it is, why aren't we free to do whatever we want on the web?

Perhaps in the ealy days, when just a few geek where playing with it, but as of now I wouldn't say the web is decentralized. We don't own all the cable undersea and have no control over it

[qiman]

Bitcoin gave Mankind, or Humankind the ability to think outside of the box again, as we were all put into a slavery system or code to abide by and work in. The decentralized notion behind Bitcoin was a paradigm shift into realizing that there is far more outside of just what the governments and central banks wanted us to believe there was. We do not necessarily need the internet to be decentralized to decentralize Bitcoin, what we need is more forward thinking people and organizations both public and private to embrace the technology itself that is the greatest gift from Bitcoin, not it being only a speculative asset for people to make financial gains. We need to look at the picture as a whole here.

[pakhitheboss]

Satoshi's invention of a revolutionary form of money that would give people control over their funds back in 2009 (Bitcoin), turned out to be a success. While the cryptocurrency's PoW consensus is partially centralized (mostly dominated by the Chinese), it has a wide distribution of nodes all across the globe. Theoretically speaking, Bitcoin is decentralized where anyone can set up a node to support the Blockchain. With enough capital, it's possible to secure Bitcoin in our homes with sophisticated ASIC machines too.

So far, many people believe that Bitcoin is truly decentralized as "no one" controls it. But the harsh reality is that every single cryptocurrency and Blockchain network depends on the Internet to survive. It's no secret that in today's world, big companies like Google, Facebook, and even Amazon control the Internet. On the other hand, ISPs (Internet Service Providers) have a final say over what people can view or host using the Internet. This means that Internet is centralized, greatly defeating the purpose of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies of eliminating the middleman.

For Bitcoin to be truly decentralized, the Internet needs to be decentralized first. Once that's done, you could expect to achieve financial freedom that's out of the scope of oppressive governments, central banks, and large corporations alike. Until then, Bitcoin and all other cryptocurrencies will be subject to the risks of the Internet's centralization for years to come.

What are your thoughts?

Bitcoin is completely decentralised and if you think internet is not decentralised then start using VPN. That will help you to overcome controlled internet. POW controlled doesnot mean that Chinese are controlling Bitcoin. Bitcoin needs it's community to survive without them the Chinese are left with nothing.

[hatshepsut93]

@bitmover
@hatshepsut93

How the internet is decentralized if we are not our own ISP provider, running our own hardware infrastructure, with open-source software, and so on. Perhaps I could add decentralized electricity is needed too lol. If it is, why aren't we free to do whatever we want on the web?

Perhaps in the ealy days, when just a few geek where playing with it, but as of now I wouldn't say the web is decentralized. We don't own all the cable undersea and have no control over it

Who said that you aren't free? People are doing all sorts of illegal stuff on the Internet without ever getting caught, that's all the proof you need to know that you can do anything you want if you know how to stay hidden. 

[dimastegar]

For Bitcoin to be truly decentralized, the Internet needs to be decentralized first. Once that's done, you could expect to achieve financial freedom that's out of the scope of oppressive governments, central banks, and large corporations alike. Until then, Bitcoin and all other cryptocurrencies will be subject to the risks of the Internet's centralization for years to come.

What are your thoughts?

I do not think so. Centralized on the Internet is certainly no bigger than Decentralized. That is, the government can only centralized by blocking web addresses, IP addresses, and search keywords on networks in a country. And if we use VPN, then what is blocked will be accessible. So don't worry about Centralized on the internet. Basically, Bitcoin has its own decentralized network.

[LeGaulois]

@bitmover
@hatshepsut93

How the internet is decentralized if we are not our own ISP provider, running our own hardware infrastructure, with open-source software, and so on. Perhaps I could add decentralized electricity is needed too lol. If it is, why aren't we free to do whatever we want on the web?

Perhaps in the ealy days, when just a few geek where playing with it, but as of now I wouldn't say the web is decentralized. We don't own all the cable undersea and have no control over it

Who said that you aren't free? People are doing all sorts of illegal stuff on the Internet without ever getting caught, that's all the proof you need to know that you can do anything you want if you know how to stay hidden.  

LOL
So explain to me why do we need to stay hidden on the web if we are free? Shouldn't it be the opposite?  
If it was really the case we wouldn't need to hide our ass. Nope, definitely we are not free, you can't say what you want on the web without getting censored, there are rules, there are ISP rules, platforms rules, hosting rules, email providers rule and so on. you can't use the internet without being monitored (doing legal or illegal)

People thinking the internet is decentralized are truly living in their own bubble

[efpd777]

Where I live using the Internet has no restrictions, that is, I can visit the pages I want and download any program and use it, it is true that the Internet may be centralized to some extent, however, it is a service used by millions of People for millions of purposes, therefore, it is not feasible to stop it and there are so many cryptocurrency projects and applications that pretending to control them is almost impossible.

The real challenge of decentralization is in the use of cryptocurrencies, because currently it still depends on many intermediaries, in fact the main Exchanges are centralized and there is no privacy.

[Youghoor]

First and foremost, you need to understand Satoshi's version of decentralization and financial freedom.  You should also understand that the internet is not really centralized as you may think.  Having the necessary tools, the internet is not centralized. With Bitcoin, the basic intention of Satoshi was to develop a digital money that will not require the verification of a central body in order for transactions to made. In order to avoid double spending, blockchain ledgers were created. This was meant to record transactions in encrypted cryptographic form and in order for this to be efficient, PoW consensus was necessary to ensure a stable blockchain network. 

[Abiky]

Internet is centralized when a government can cut your access or limit it. It is centralized when you're paying your ISP for the ability to connect to the web.

It is centralized because somebody owns the cables. Those fiberoptics did not produce and lay themselves. Your local network at work is also centralized because someone owns the computers and someone pays the bills.

Exactly. That's my point. If the Internet is controlled by the hands of a few (ISPs, Governments, etc), then it's considered centralized. Since Bitcoin depends on the Internet, it's not fully decentralized as we've thought it would be. Even Tor has been compromised by the FBI some time ago. The only way to achieve decentralization with Bitcoin would be to run the same via a mesh network. Satellite connections would work too, but they aren't very reliable (as far as I'm aware).

As long as the public Internet is controlled by big corporations, they could have a final say over which devices are allowed to run a node and support the Bitcoin blockchain. Imagine if worldwide governments started cracking down on Bitcoin and the entire Blockchain industry. They could easily hit the "kill switch" by forcing ISPs to ban connections to the BTC network. Something like this is being done in Russia with the aim to prevent people from accessing the public Internet. Thanks to the open source nature of Bitcoin, someone can easily come up with a solution to maintain the Blockchain ecosystem without interference (radio waves, perhaps?).

Can you elaborate? As I know, the Internet network is still largely decentralized, and thanks to tools like encryption, ToR, VPN, proxies it's impossible to control users. It's impossible to make a "turn Bitcoin off" button, so I wouldn't worry about it. There are problems with lack of competition between Internet service providers in some places, but it doesn't have any strong implications for Bitcoin.

I'm aware there are tools that would provide a level of privacy to Bitcoin users at some extent. However, these same tools can be easily intercepted by the government. It's no secret that VPN & proxy providers are centralized, while the Tor network it's said to be compromised by the FBI (look on Google for more info). The best way to use Bitcoin in a completely decentralized manner would be to run our own personal networks that are "off the grid". Something like a mesh network or even a PAN (Personal Area Network) could further decentralize Bitcoin. Of course, most people still connect to the public Internet to use Bitcoin. But in the event governments decide to collaborate with ISPs to prevent devices from connecting to the BTC network, other decentralized means could be used to maintain the blockchain over time.

As most Bitcoin nodes rely on the public Internet, the risk of centralization will always be there. This is something unavoidable since there's no such thing as 100% decentralization. Sometime in the future, we might be able to interact with new kinds of network protocols that would simplify the task of interacting with the Bitcoin blockchain in a decentralized manner. All in all, I hope that Bitcoin remains decentralized for years to come.

[hatshepsut93]

I'm aware there are tools that would provide a level of privacy to Bitcoin users at some extent. However, these same tools can be easily intercepted by the government. It's no secret that VPN & proxy providers are centralized, while the Tor network it's said to be compromised by the FBI (look on Google for more info). The best way to use Bitcoin in a completely decentralized manner would be to run our own personal networks that are "off the grid". Something like a mesh network or even a PAN (Personal Area Network) could further decentralize Bitcoin. Of course, most people still connect to the public Internet to use Bitcoin. But in the event governments decide to collaborate with ISPs to prevent devices from connecting to the BTC network, other decentralized means could be used to maintain the blockchain over time.

As most Bitcoin nodes rely on the public Internet, the risk of centralization will always be there. This is something unavoidable since there's no such thing as 100% decentralization. Sometime in the future, we might be able to interact with new kinds of network protocols that would simplify the task of interacting with the Bitcoin blockchain in a decentralized manner. All in all, I hope that Bitcoin remains decentralized for years to come.

If Tor was so broken, cybercrime wouldn't exist. If privacy was impossible, Satoshi wouldn't be able to hide his identity for all these years. I think there's plenty enough proof that strong privacy is possible in modern age, that you can hide what you are doing from the government and ISPs if you are skilled enough. This means that they wouldn't know that you are using Bitcoin and wouldn't be able to stop it.

As for mesh networks, they are local, so they can't be used for Bitcoin, we need a single network that covers the whole work, otherwise each local network will have its own version of blockchain.

[blckhawk]

As your argument says so, Bitcoin is also centralized partially in nodes located in China. Apply the same logic/analogy to internet. These partial centralization is only among ISPs, that conform to a gateway to reach other parts of the world. Without them, it would be hard to lay your own cables and build infrastructure that would interconnect all the Bitcoin nodes. And even we are partially 'centralized' because of ISPs purpose to run our network, they still provide us freedom to what we do and connect to on the internet since it is our right, and doesn't really affect the decentralization of the network.