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Author Topic: "Who Needs the Internet Anyway: Taking Bitcoin Transactions Offline*"  (Read 312 times)
1959 (OP)
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December 29, 2019, 10:58:29 PM
 #1

So, in this recent video Neil Woodfine is talking about how Bitcoin will withstand an attack on the Internet infrastructure we have learned to rely on for so much in our daily lives.

https://i.imgur.com/30WUcdO.png

How realistic do you see the assumptions being made here? While I agree that having for example ways to connect to the Bitcoin network via satellite is better than not having it and it certainly is useful to people in places like Iran, Egypt, Turkey etc. where the Internet access gets restricted by authorities at times of public upheaval... - if one day some powerful nation/nation-like entity like the U.S., China (just see what happened around the recent NBA-related censorship... - pleasing Beijing matters these days if you want to keep the $$$ flowing) or even the EU decides to force the satellite providers to suspend those services to Bitcoin-related companies, this part of the infrastructure is likely also going to fall away.

Unless we start launching our own rogue satellites which might just be shot out of the sky by then...- not a "space expert" here though; so I hope somebody who dived deeper into the matter can possibly explain how relying on Satellites as backup helps us to make the network sufficiently antifragile when "the shit *really* hits the fan".



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December 30, 2019, 03:05:10 AM
 #2

So, in this recent video Neil Woodfine is talking about how Bitcoin will withstand an attack on the Internet infrastructure we have learned to rely on for so much in our daily lives.



How realistic do you see the assumptions being made here? While I agree that having for example ways to connect to the Bitcoin network via satellite is better than not having it and it certainly is useful to people in places like Iran, Egypt, Turkey etc. where the Internet access gets restricted by authorities at times of public upheaval... - if one day some powerful nation/nation-like entity like the U.S., China (just see what happened around the recent NBA-related censorship... - pleasing Beijing matters these days if you want to keep the $$$ flowing) or even the EU decides to force the satellite providers to suspend those services to Bitcoin-related companies, this part of the infrastructure is likely also going to fall away.

Unless we start launching our own rogue satellites which might just be shot out of the sky by then...- not a "space expert" here though; so I hope somebody who dived deeper into the matter can possibly explain how relying on Satellites as backup helps us to make the network sufficiently antifragile when "the shit *really* hits the fan".





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December 30, 2019, 03:30:38 AM
 #3

While I agree that having for example ways to connect to the Bitcoin network via satellite is better than not having it and it certainly is useful to people in places like Iran, Egypt, Turkey etc. where the Internet access gets restricted by authorities at times of public upheaval...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it could be pretty easy to bypass those website/app bans. Wallet software website/playstore banned? Download it through F-droid, or download the source code and compile it yourself. Exchanges banned? Go with Bisq. I think if a certain country goes really strict against Bitcoin, the community will create solutions(or at least suggestions) for them.

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December 30, 2019, 03:43:21 AM
 #4

the short answer is that the statement is wrong. bitcoin will cease to exist without the internet.

the long answer is that it depends on what you mean by "an attack on the Internet infrastructure".
if it is just one nation restricting its people, cutting them from the internet,... then it will be different, people can still find alternative ways to connect to the bitcoin network (one of which is using satellites) and sync successfully.
but if it is global for whatever crazy reason, then bitcoin can not exist because it works right now because everyone can connect to anyone they want from anywhere in the world and also everyone can get in sync with the current state (new blocks and mempool) within seconds all thanks to the internet. alternative ways means you are connecting to a centralized place (such as the satellite) and you rely on that to be honest not to mention that it can have a lot of delays. so unless the day that every average Joe could launch his own satellite in orbit, bitcoin can't rely on such methods.

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1959 (OP)
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December 30, 2019, 03:47:40 AM
 #5

While I agree that having for example ways to connect to the Bitcoin network via satellite is better than not having it and it certainly is useful to people in places like Iran, Egypt, Turkey etc. where the Internet access gets restricted by authorities at times of public upheaval...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it could be pretty easy to bypass those website/app bans. Wallet software website/playstore banned? Download it through F-droid, or download the source code and compile it yourself. Exchanges banned? Go with Bisq. I think if a certain country goes really strict against Bitcoin, the community will create solutions(or at least suggestions) for them.

How can you do all of these things without Internet access? I think that's the basic question.

That you can circumvent bans from Appstores/Exchanges etc. is not the issue; but complete lack of Internet access might be.

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December 30, 2019, 03:50:02 AM
 #6



Connecting with the global village and using Bitcoin using satellite system specifically made and launched for the same purpose can be so pivotal for the longevity and viability of cryptocurrency especially during economic, political and disaster upheavals. This can be seen as the most important back-up infrastructure that should be readily available anytime, anywhere. However, I am not so sure of the possible costs on this platform and whether this can be sustainable in the long run. Let's see how things will be developing on this front and if the people/company behind this project can successfully push this through completion and successful operation. Grand plans are good but the ultimate litmus test of anything is of course when things are already reality and existing, and of course when we can already use the service.
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December 30, 2019, 03:56:08 AM
 #7



the short answer is that the statement is wrong. bitcoin will cease to exist without the internet.

the long answer is that it depends on what you mean by "an attack on the Internet infrastructure".
if it is just one nation restricting its people, cutting them from the internet,... then it will be different, people can still find alternative ways to connect to the bitcoin network (one of which is using satellites) and sync successfully.
but if it is global for whatever crazy reason, then bitcoin can not exist because it works right now because everyone can connect to anyone they want from anywhere in the world and also everyone can get in sync with the current state (new blocks and mempool) within seconds all thanks to the internet. alternative ways means you are connecting to a centralized place (such as the satellite) and you rely on that to be honest not to mention that it can have a lot of delays. so unless the day that every average Joe could launch his own satellite in orbit, bitcoin can't rely on such methods.

Yes, that are my current doubts as well.

We are certainly better off having the satellite than not having it. But in case things go *really* the wrong way it does not seem to me resilient enough to withstand targeted attacks by the most powerful nations on earth.

Which is an existential threat to Bitcoin's survival (and I think that's the thinking with which we need to operate in order to make the project succeed).
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December 30, 2019, 04:36:07 AM
 #8

As long as there is some form internet access (even with censorship), it is easy circumvent them and use Bitcoin.

IMO, it isn't feasible for Bitcoin to exist without the internet. If internet cease to exist, it would be largely impossible for people to download the entire blockchain without taking an agonizing amount of time. Using satellites and radio antennas to form a web and broadcast transactions is possible but it is just too slow for blocks to be relayed. There would be bigger problems than Bitcoin if internet gets shut down completely.

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December 30, 2019, 04:41:48 AM
 #9

Taking bitcoin transactions offline is really a tough job. We all know that all other transactions are also internet dependent. Nonetheless, its quite helpful though as it may save us from internet fees. But, as I've mentioned how about those other transactions that we pay or exchange with bitcoin? It think this is really a tough job or project to so as it may also affect the security and some financial regulations that we need to consider in certain countries.

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December 30, 2019, 04:44:42 AM
 #10

We are certainly better off having the satellite than not having it. But in case things go *really* the wrong way it does not seem to me resilient enough to withstand targeted attacks by the most powerful nations on earth.

they have to shut down the internet globally otherwise as long as there is internet the bitcoin P2P protocol could be adapted to circumvent any kind of restrictions. for example if ISPs start packet sniffing (since protocol currently is using HTTP) to block any bitcoin related traffic, we can easily use SSL encryption and change the port to 443!

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December 30, 2019, 05:24:39 AM
 #11

No people you are all replying the wrong way Roll Eyes

What is internet? What is the network? It's combined data based on 0s and 1s.
Based on that you can convert the "internet" into something like radio waves / frequencies.

If the Internet goes away or disappears there are always other alternatives.
There could be a way (in the future ofc) to convert internet data to a frequency data wave.

By that we could still make bitcoin transactions "offline" as frequencies -> waves of encrypted data.

Nothing to see here
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December 30, 2019, 05:54:43 AM
 #12

Are you saying that the people don't need internet right now? On the future outcomes and happenings, internet is one of the necessity needs of the people right now especially on how to connect to others using this network so called internet we can connect and make transactions whenever we want all over the world.
We cannot do offline transaction in bitcoin because if it would be a offline then probably this will be able to trace the transactions because of it's offline and doesn't have any record of transactions in an online mode. So probably it would really hard for us to take transactions offline.



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December 30, 2019, 05:59:20 AM
 #13

Bypassing internet bannis not a difficult task at all. Anyone with little knowledge on VPN can do it with ease! However, if all countries of the world comes together and plan to ban everything related to bitcoin (highly unlikely to happen) and do it from the satellite that controls the internet, then it would be a big challenge.

Still, we have another solution to it. It seems like two developers have invented a technique to send bitcoin over radio frequency. Read the article below,

https://www.cryptonewsz.com/first-ever-bitcoin-btc-transfer-through-radio-waves/10755/amp/

But, with the growing interest of countries about cryptos, this is very unlikely to happen!

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December 30, 2019, 06:00:02 AM
 #14

Taking bitcoin transactions offline is really a tough job. We all know that all other transactions are also internet dependent. Nonetheless, its quite helpful though as it may save us from internet fees. But, as I've mentioned how about those other transactions that we pay or exchange with bitcoin? It think this is really a tough job or project to so as it may also affect the security and some financial regulations that we need to consider in certain countries.
While it is good to imagine that Bitcoin can be available and use offline, it's seem far from happening as it needs to be recorded in the demand of BTC used to know the price it can achieve. As the price changes every now and then and used by many individuals.

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December 30, 2019, 06:03:43 AM
 #15

Are you saying that the people don't need internet right now? On the future outcomes and happenings, internet is one of the necessity needs of the people right now especially on how to connect to others using this network so called internet we can connect and make transactions whenever we want all over the world.
We cannot do offline transaction in bitcoin because if it would be a offline then probably this will be able to trace the transactions because of it's offline and doesn't have any record of transactions in an online mode. So probably it would really hard for us to take transactions offline.
Might as well consider that they are just trying to improve the difficulty of the transactions today, it is merely a good idea to still be able to transact even without the internet, and not really meaning to say that we don't need internet in all aspects. It is the network that connects us, and transaction with currency is just a one aspect of it.  One idea in my mind is to store the transaction offline, and when they connect to the internet, then that is when the transaction happens. But it is merely impossible because we need to update the blockchain for each transaction to be possible.
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December 30, 2019, 06:17:21 AM
 #16

How can you do all of these things without Internet access? I think that's the basic question.

That you can circumvent bans from Appstores/Exchanges etc. is not the issue; but complete lack of Internet access might be.

Oh. If you're talking about a 100% complete restriction of the internet, then that country has a lot bigger issues to solve than to be worried of Bitcoin.

With that said, satellites could work like you said, and also probably SMS transactions via platforms like Samourai. Though I personally really can't vouch for both as I haven't tried either.

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December 30, 2019, 12:06:19 PM
 #17

sure if the internet is down on the whole planet we are most likely going through the aftermath of a major disaster or a final targeted attack.
and of course, if we survived that we may be worried about other more pressing issues.

then, maybe, whoever has some gasoline left to run a generator to produce some electricity and possibly send some messages or even transactions over the radio could start communicating.

i am also thinking mesh networks could be built or other near field solutions may be applied.

suddenly preppers may become the new heroes and teachers to listen to.

maybe we start recording trades in a physical ledger like a long time ago the japanese did?

people may even hand over hardware wallets or physical coins (?) containing verified funds in exchange for other physical goods ...
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December 30, 2019, 12:16:04 PM
 #18


How realistic do you see the assumptions being made here?


Not realistic at all. Remember that the internet was designed by the US military to ensure that communications couldn't be taken out by a single point of failure or even multiple points of failure. The packets of information just re-route from node to node till they get to the recipient, even if they have to go the long-winded way around the world to do so.

So say someone cut the cables going across the Atlantic. The info would then route through the Mediterranean into the Red Sea, into the Indian Ocean into the Pacific Ocean and get to America that way. To criple that system you would have to cut all teh cables and assume that govts won't be able to fix the cables as fast as you can cut them.

The bigger threat is lack of electricity - but again, because countries regard this as a core feature, they will defend their electricity generation at all costs. Even Venezuela still has electricity.

 
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December 30, 2019, 04:26:42 PM
 #19

So say someone cut the cables going across the Atlantic. The info would then route through the Mediterranean into the Red Sea, into the Indian Ocean into the Pacific Ocean and get to America that way. To criple that system you would have to cut all teh cables and assume that govts won't be able to fix the cables as fast as you can cut them.

If somehow all the cables in North Atlantic would be cut we're f****.
The route you picture has only 20% of the capacity for the middle east section and would not be able to handle the traffic at all.
The whole world would be back at dial-up times with everything timing out, forget gaming, forget video calls, the delays would be making everyone quit.

Not realistic at all. Remember that the internet was designed by the US military to ensure that communications couldn't be taken out by a single point of failure or even multiple points of failure.

Us military didn't design the global network, it has numerous weak points in multiple countries.

Multiple cables and multiple routes can solve the problem but it comes at a price, a very high price!!

Unless we start launching our own rogue satellites which might just be shot out of the sky by then...- not a "space expert" here though; so I hope somebody who dived deeper into the matter can possibly explain how relying on Satellites as backup helps us to make the network sufficiently antifragile when "the shit *really* hits the fan".

Assuming the internet is down, even satellites won't be able to help you.
You would not only have to receive information from those (the way GPS works) but you will have to also send information like your tx and good luck without equipment.
In the case of the blockstream satellites, there are also ground antennas that send the blocks to the satellites and those rebroadcast them back to earth.
If the ground antennas are down or they can't get their blocks from miners then the whole thing is unusable.



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December 30, 2019, 04:51:55 PM
 #20

So, in this recent videoNeil Woodfine is talking about how Bitcoin will withstand an attack on the Internet infrastructure we have learned to rely on for so much in our daily lives.

How realistic do you see the assumptions being made here? While I agree that having for example ways to connect to the Bitcoin network via satellite is better than not having it and it certainly is useful to people in places like Iran, Egypt, Turkey etc. where the Internet access gets restricted by authorities at times of public upheaval... - if one day some powerful nation/nation-like entity like the U.S., China (just see what happened around the recent NBA-related censorship... - pleasing Beijing matters these days if you want to keep the $$$ flowing) or even the EU decides to force the satellite providers to suspend those services to Bitcoin-related companies, this part of the infrastructure is likely also going to fall away.

Unless we start launching our own rogue satellites which might just be shot out of the sky by then...- not a "space expert" here though; so I hope somebody who dived deeper into the matter can possibly explain how relying on Satellites as backup helps us to make the network sufficiently antifragile when "the shit *really* hits the fan".

The internet is very hard to shutdown completely to begin with. Made to withstand nuclear blasts, it was designed as a military network without a central point of failure. As they say, "the Internet treats censorship as damage and routes around it".

For the most part, States can cause harm to their population in attempts to isolate it from the rest. If politicians had it their way, they would all be like North Korea, which is essentially a glorified LAN where only the approved content gets copied in.

But the good news is that not all countries are willing to accept this level of police state politics. And as long as they exist, the internet (and Bitcoin) will. Those living under oppression will have more difficulty, but with difficulty and skill still able to keep connected. Tools like Tor were designed for this very purpose. Even if it needs to be thru "hidden" services, the network will go on. Indeed there are many nodes there.

Satellites are pretty much useless for many reasons. Sure you could get an updated blockchain, but what about your own transactions? And can you even hide the antenna? Just pointing the thing is incredibly hard. Maybe those low orbit satellites from the likes of SpaceX and Google can use a simpler antenna, but so far the classic method which is similar to a satellite tv service is way too difficult for the average Joe (and if you have ever pointed your own sat tv, you still don't have the skill to do the same for a sat uplink, because that's only the first part, the "easy" part). Oh and imagine smuggling the parts in, it reminds me of smuggling asic miner parts...

Its not impossible, to have a "snapshot" of the blockchain, take it to an offline site perform some transaction, and later broadcast it when you get online. I think there is a BIP for that as well. imagine a bus that only gets connected at bus stops to update its transactions.

The unreliable link scenario is the first more common use, and this would simply extend that. Of course this still needs internet, just not all the time. You can in theory use other networks, but the world has far abandoned the idea of networks outside of Internet, because they would recreate the single point of failure problem. You don't want anything you can knock out and shutdown.

Oppressive governments naturally hate this freedom of information flow, of course they are also going to get the freedom of money flow.

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