Poker talk - Specifically Hold'em - Hands and or strategy

[figmentofmyass]

Reading thru the thread..  It's nice to see some of you starting to take learning more seriously.  Here's a book that could help you guys with the basics:  https://www.scribd.com/doc/51188067/The-Poker-Blueprint

Here's something a little more advanced and math centric:  https://www.scribd.com/doc/36453558/Let-There-Be-Range

i read the poker blueprint when it came out many years ago. some nice bedtime reading there.

so when you gonna find your way into our poker series anyway? series #3 will probably start in ~3 weeks.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5245365.0

btw, i'm digging the return of the dude avatar.

[tokeweed]

^  I thought about joining but I didn't feel like it.  Felt kinda depressed.  But I'll join a couple of tourneys next time.    

And yup.  Lol.  I haven't used this avatar in a looong time.

[Steamtyme]

~snip~

Thanks definitely looks like some good material. Might make that some of my casual reading at work couldn't hurt to go back over everything. Agreed on the Doug Polk hand review videos, I watched so much of those unfortunately for me, I really was just getting back into poker and was reall digging his content as he lost his desire to play or continue making poker content.

I did however follow him into the upswing lab which was helpful and worked out as they just updated a bunch of their MTT ranges extensively as my subscription was ending. I've lately been watching the content put out by BenCB/Raise Your Edge on youtube and i think it is a very complimentary after studying purely GTO strategies.

Sorry to hear you were feeling depressed. I don't know you from a hole in the wall, but if it hits again as it usually does and your feeling stuck reach out anytime. Apart from that will be happy to see you playing in series #3

[tokeweed]

^  Ah...  I quit poker by the time Upswing Poker went online.  I did have a couple of subscriptions at other sites tho.  RIO owned by Phil Galfond was good.  He was really good back in the day.  Prolly at the top 5 best in cash games...  Up there with durrrr, Ivey and Antonius.

[Steamtyme]

^  Ah...  I quit poker by the time Upswing Poker went online.  I did have a couple of subscriptions at other sites tho.  RIO owned by Phil Galfond was good.  He was really good back in the day.  Prolly at the top 5 best in cash games...  Up there with durrrr, Ivey and Antonius.

Yeah Galfond is crazy good. Not sure how much you follow these days but he's become quite the PLO wizard. He's running some challenges now and made an insane comeback against the first challenger. I'd say you made a good decision for someone to study from.

I have to ask as it fascinates me. Why did you quit playing poker?

[tokeweed]

^  Yeah I heard about it.  He still has it.  And he's the guy that durrrr won't ever ever play HU.  Durrr has too much respect for Galfond's mad skillzz.

I quit cos I had the worst run of my life...  I was losing a lot.

Edit:  I still play from time to time tho.  Short Deck Holdem, it's fun.

Watch this vid.  About a mysterious Swede who came to FTP and shocked everybody.  He was taking on anybody HU.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFq9sJMmbEg

[Betwrong]

^  Yeah I heard about it.  He still has it.  And he's the guy that durrrr won't ever ever play HU.  Durrr has too much respect for Galfond's mad skillzz.

I quit cos I had the worst run of my life...  I was losing a lot.

Edit:  I still play from time to time tho.  Short Deck Holdem, it's fun.

Watch this vid.  About a mysterious Swede who came to FTP and shocked everybody.  He was taking on anybody HU.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFq9sJMmbEg

Great vid! Thanks!

I believe I watched it around 3 years ago, but I totally forgot this wonderful story.

What I like the most about this vid is that it shows that no one can be objectively the best in poker. Since luck still plays a big part, "poker kings" have been replacing one another all the time. (Aren't our Bitcointalk Poker Series is another illustration of that? )

[tokeweed]

^  It's mostly variance not luck or bad luck imo.  You could say Isildur1 ran pretty hot vs durrrr but he wasn't just lucky or for the most part lucky.  He's a good player.

And Hastings?  The vid didn't show that Hastings and some other guys were sharing their HEM and PT databases to study Isildur1's plays.  They pooled their action to beat him.  And the game was PLO...  Isildur1 was mostly an HU NLHE player.

[Steamtyme]

Love it that made for some good watching this morning before bed when I got home. The delivery made it, I had read a few things about Isildur1  and their early and cryptic entry into online Poker. Just goes to show what dedication and study can do. i was so far removed from anything resembling serious or interst in the poker scene beyond playing fun home games back then, but I get the feeling he likely had done some very dirct research on each of his expected opponents and their play.

Glad you filled in the blanks on the Hastings dude, I had a feeling this was a very targeted approach, the "teamwork" in database sharing doesn't surprise me. I'm sure I was a learning lesson for Viktor as it is almost ludacris to think you can jump from Hold'em to PLO at the same stakes and expect to crush it. I've been thinking on this a lot lately as I watch quite a few stream highlights on youtube, some for fun others as they share a lot of the thought process and reasoning behind their plays. If they aren't trying for a purely balanced GTO strategy it really opens them up for exploits in the long run. Not just streamers but really any online crusher that you can go back over and watch their action all the way through seems  a very big risk.
I have no idea how often they make adjustments to their game or how easily they can spot an exploit in their gameplay in these situations.

I quit cos I had the worst run of my life...  I was losing a lot.
Edit:  I still play from time to time tho.  Short Deck Holdem, it's fun.

Good on you. A lot of people can't make that decision. I've considered giving short deck a try for fun but will probably hold off a while and see how I make out in the next month or so with my standard holdem MTT's. Can't be any worse than April/May really.
I almost forgot does anyone have opinions on what they would do here. I forgot to pop it into equihash and see where I am at. With a pot like this I don't feel like flatting the 4-bet jam and call, is a good play as I'm left with 9 BB and am pot committed. It feels like it's a Jam or a fold. It's been up for a while and I'll just let you know what I did. I folded.
I'm also curious on what you think about me flatting(calling) the 3-bet as opposed to Jamming not much option for a 4-bet.

So I have been trying to find this hand for a couple days and it's gone. I have been trying to adjust and catch myself in spots where my pocket pairs might be behind. I'd like to get thoughts on this spot. This is about 40 people off the money. I am sitting around the bubble for position at the moment.

Villain 1 UTG  22 BB   Raises  to 2.5 BB       Folds to
Villain-2 BTN  39 BB   Raises  to 8.3 BB
Hero      SB    31 BB   Calls
Villain 1        Jams     22BB to call
Villain 2       Calls      22 BB
Hero with TT  Huh?   13.7 BB to call                   Pot size is roughly 53 BB

[tokeweed]

^  If anybody had the same kind of mind f**k poker was doing to me they'd surely quit too.  Day in day out I get set over set, a straight or flush that goes all in at the flop or the turn vs a set and river pairs the board.  And it's been going on for months! 

I shit you not.

But then again in hindsight, the meta also changed and I stuck to how I have always played and never adjusted.  I guess I got lazy.  Lol.

[figmentofmyass]

I almost forgot does anyone have opinions on what they would do here. I forgot to pop it into equihash and see where I am at. With a pot like this I don't feel like flatting the 4-bet jam and call, is a good play as I'm left with 9 BB and am pot committed. It feels like it's a Jam or a fold. It's been up for a while and I'll just let you know what I did. I folded.
I'm also curious on what you think about me flatting(calling) the 3-bet as opposed to Jamming not much option for a 4-bet.

So I have been trying to find this hand for a couple days and it's gone. I have been trying to adjust and catch myself in spots where my pocket pairs might be behind. I'd like to get thoughts on this spot. This is about 40 people off the money. I am sitting around the bubble for position at the moment.

Villain 1 UTG  22 BB   Raises  to 2.5 BB       Folds to
Villain-2 BTN  39 BB   Raises  to 8.3 BB
Hero      SB    31 BB   Calls
Villain 1        Jams     22BB to call
Villain 2       Calls      22 BB
Hero with TT  Huh?   13.7 BB to call                   Pot size is roughly 53 BB

i'm folding there most times, then kicking myself when villains both show AX hands.

given generic ranges i think you're winning there maybe 1/3 of the time at showdown multi-way? being only in for 0.5bb and with very little fold equity vs villain 2, and with villain 1's range being a bit of a wild card, i think we can walk away. just too much to invest preflop IMO.....

[Steamtyme]

^  If anybody had the same kind of mind f**k poker was doing to me they'd surely quit too.  Day in day out I get set over set, a straight or flush that goes all in at the flop or the turn vs a set and river pairs the board.  And it's been going on for months! 
I shit you not.
But then again in hindsight, the meta also changed and I stuck to how I have always played and never adjusted.  I guess I got lazy.  Lol.

Still a good call. Tale as old as time as they say. I barely remember what poker was like as I didn't pay enough attention to playing it well, but I can remember sorting out things like raising from the BTN with pretty much any 2 and it getting through more than it should have. Not the case anymore. It's shitty when you get hit with Variance, and a changing landscape all at once, and have to make a tough call. If the desire to adapt wasn't there then it was probably for the best to get out overall at the time. Definitely better than chasing the win by doing the same thing over and over and hoping for a different result.

i'm folding there most times, then kicking myself when villains both show AX hands.

given generic ranges i think you're winning there maybe 1/3 of the time at showdown multi-way? being only in for 0.5bb and with very little fold equity vs villain 2, and with villain 1's range being a bit of a wild card, i think we can walk away. just too much to invest preflop IMO.....

Wait a minute were you there... They both show AKoff, and the cards run out clean. This spot was a test for my patience. Initially I was pissed and started to doubt the spot and whether I should have put the chips in, but calmed my tits and was able to find some better spots later on.

Even as I thought on the initial call I made I kept going over whether a flat was the error and it should have been a 4-bet or Jam. I still have to talk myself down from that initial reaction to flip for my tournament life. I clearly have to put BTN on a strong range that has very few pocket pairs I beat maybe 88, 99 for the 3-bet but likely JJ+ then there is KQs, AJs+(maybe) AQoff+. Even that might be to wide, hard to say.

It was just one of those things that ate at me having to see the runout. When I was considering it I didn't really think UTG was going to call down, let alone jam. Can't recall what it was but something about their play so far made me think they were mostly RFI/Fold pre. So when they called I figured it was a strong pair, and was elated at first by my fold.

Either way thanks for the insight. I'll have videos tomorrow night likely. I'd love to have people come in and talk spots about the Championship game. I'm curious what people thought about some of my call downs. I definitely got lucky hitting with them but I think most are standard for a final table type scenario for my situation.

[figmentofmyass]

i'm folding there most times, then kicking myself when villains both show AX hands.

given generic ranges i think you're winning there maybe 1/3 of the time at showdown multi-way? being only in for 0.5bb and with very little fold equity vs villain 2, and with villain 1's range being a bit of a wild card, i think we can walk away. just too much to invest preflop IMO.....

Wait a minute were you there... They both show AKoff, and the cards run out clean.

probably not, doesn't ring a bell---just such a standard annoying spot. i posted a similar multi-way pot a while back where villains showed down AA and KK. i've seen my share of AX vs AX there, which is always frustrating.

Either way thanks for the insight. I'll have videos tomorrow night likely. I'd love to have people come in and talk spots about the Championship game. I'm curious what people thought about some of my call downs.

i'm looking forward to it!

[Steamtyme]

Here are the videos for the last qualifier and the Series 2 Championship.

[tokeweed]

^  If anybody had the same kind of mind f**k poker was doing to me they'd surely quit too.  Day in day out I get set over set, a straight or flush that goes all in at the flop or the turn vs a set and river pairs the board.  And it's been going on for months! 
I shit you not.
But then again in hindsight, the meta also changed and I stuck to how I have always played and never adjusted.  I guess I got lazy.  Lol.

Still a good call. Tale as old as time as they say. I barely remember what poker was like as I didn't pay enough attention to playing it well, but I can remember sorting out things like raising from the BTN with pretty much any 2 and it getting through more than it should have. Not the case anymore. It's shitty when you get hit with Variance, and a changing landscape all at once, and have to make a tough call. If the desire to adapt wasn't there then it was probably for the best to get out overall at the time. Definitely better than chasing the win by doing the same thing over and over and hoping for a different result.

i'm folding there most times, then kicking myself when villains both show AX hands.

given generic ranges i think you're winning there maybe 1/3 of the time at showdown multi-way? being only in for 0.5bb and with very little fold equity vs villain 2, and with villain 1's range being a bit of a wild card, i think we can walk away. just too much to invest preflop IMO.....

Wait a minute were you there... They both show AKoff, and the cards run out clean. This spot was a test for my patience. Initially I was pissed and started to doubt the spot and whether I should have put the chips in, but calmed my tits and was able to find some better spots later on.

Even as I thought on the initial call I made I kept going over whether a flat was the error and it should have been a 4-bet or Jam. I still have to talk myself down from that initial reaction to flip for my tournament life. I clearly have to put BTN on a strong range that has very few pocket pairs I beat maybe 88, 99 for the 3-bet but likely JJ+ then there is KQs, AJs+(maybe) AQoff+. Even that might be to wide, hard to say.

It was just one of those things that ate at me having to see the runout. When I was considering it I didn't really think UTG was going to call down, let alone jam. Can't recall what it was but something about their play so far made me think they were mostly RFI/Fold pre. So when they called I figured it was a strong pair, and was elated at first by my fold.

Either way thanks for the insight. I'll have videos tomorrow night likely. I'd love to have people come in and talk spots about the Championship game. I'm curious what people thought about some of my call downs. I definitely got lucky hitting with them but I think most are standard for a final table type scenario for my situation.

With TT in that spot and with those stacks, it's a jam and never a call if you're continuing with the hand.  TT is vulnerable and being oop makes post flop play harder.  And you want to keep the pot HU.

[figmentofmyass]

Here are the videos for the last qualifier and the Series 2 Championship.

thanks, i just gave the championship a quick look through. were there hands in particular you wanted to discuss?

i don't feel so bad for @arallmuus now that i see he limped KK on that trip Qs hand. still, pretty gutsy call on your part with top pair, 8 kicker on a very wet flop. i assume you put him on the flush draw?

i should have been in that hand lol. i had 5h6h and would have flopped the flush. i had just taken out @iv4n and wanted to let you splash around with the small stacks for a bit + nurse my stack. you came through in spades.

[Steamtyme]

With TT in that spot and with those stacks, it's a jam and never a call if you're continuing with the hand.  TT is vulnerable and being oop makes post flop play harder.  And you want to keep the pot HU.

Thanks for the insight. I think I might be getting a bit gunshy. I've been playing around with a few things to try and play these pots without necessarily getting it all-in pre. It's been a mixed bag so far, really flop dependent. I guess it just comes down to defining my range better for what I'll continue with. I'll have to give my call/fold, call/call, Jam range there more definition.

thanks, i just gave the championship a quick look through. were there hands in particular you wanted to discuss?
i don't feel so bad for @arallmuus now that i see he limped KK on that trip Qs hand. still, pretty gutsy call on your part with top pair, 8 kicker on a very wet flop. i assume you put him on the flush draw?
i should have been in that hand lol. i had 5h6h and would have flopped the flush. i had just taken out @iv4n and wanted to let you splash around with the small stacks for a bit + nurse my stack. you came through in spades.

I don't have any hands off the top of my head. I'm going to give it a watch later on to see if anything jumps out at me.
I had to track down that hand with arallmuus, to remember what I did. It was just a weird spot, for them to Jam. Mostly the call was odds, I need to be good there 1/3 of the time to call down ~4K. With top pair, I felt okay because of the Limp pre and this Jam made me think he was trying to protect something worse. That or they had the A, maybe K of hearts. Overall it felt like they were just trying to rep the flush and steal the pot. I'm not sure whether or not they are capable of trying that as a bluff or not but I'll be a bit more cautious next time something like that pops up. I got lucky there no doubt about it.
I had some notes on the before that they limp strong hands not sure that I had put premium pairs but definitely all AK hands.

Damn those could have been your chips  

I have to say this patience fucking sucks. Okay maybe an exaggeration but fuck me is it hard, and heartbreaking when it winds up being for not. I've been working on this a lot, slowing down, putting less chips in and trying to control pots better. It was a change from trying to get in as much as possible to flip with a volatile stack size, or abrupt end. Not so much early on but as late reg nears it's end and through the battle past the bubble and then for ladders. LAst night was one of those tourneys. With about 3 levels left in late reg I was 4th of 236, and stayed in top 10 until we got down to 50. From there I was around 15-19th until we got down to 20. I made it to 17/17, by nursing my stack down to 6 BB, then to 2.6BB getting it in with A3off, and survivng to the ladder at 15. Did the same to make the jump at 14/14 with 9Ts
Then here I am 10/10 with 5.6BB and I get KK - The only premium pocket pair I've been dealt this whole tournament. Okay JJ but that's not the premium I mean. I jam and get called by AK, they run 4 to a flush lol. I can't complain I really went card dead from 42 players remaining and just focused on surviving to the ladders rather than jam garbage in good spots to try and steal. I made potentially made 3 buy-ins more by waiting and getting lucky, but damn that final double-up would have been nice.

[arallmuus]

i don't feel so bad for @arallmuus now that i see he limped KK on that trip Qs hand. still, pretty gutsy call on your part with top pair, 8 kicker on a very wet flop. i assume you put him on the flush draw?

i should have been in that hand lol. i had 5h6h and would have flopped the flush. i had just taken out @iv4n and wanted to let you splash around with the small stacks for a bit + nurse my stack. you came through in spades.

Pretty Gutsy from him , if he / someone else beat me with a flush that would be great call but three Queen was very lucky from him to call my all in considering that he has only pair of Q in his hand with no chance to get a flush IIRC (?)

Damn those could have been your chips  

I know this might sounds stupid but IIRC the number of flush that I have seen in the tournament ( From regular tournament to Grand Finale ) was so low that I am almost 95% sure that it would not be a flush if you call my all in

Turns out yes it wasnt but three Q, you lucky man  

Thats part of the game of course, being lucky and Im not LOL

[tokeweed]

With TT in that spot and with those stacks, it's a jam and never a call if you're continuing with the hand.  TT is vulnerable and being oop makes post flop play harder.  And you want to keep the pot HU.

Thanks for the insight. I think I might be getting a bit gunshy. I've been playing around with a few things to try and play these pots without necessarily getting it all-in pre. It's been a mixed bag so far, really flop dependent. I guess it just comes down to defining my range better for what I'll continue with. I'll have to give my call/fold, call/call, Jam range there more definition.

Nono folding is fine.  I mean it's def close with 31bb's left.  But could go either way.  It's around 20bb's that's when you really start getting stacks in a little lighter than usual.

[figmentofmyass]

I have to say this patience fucking sucks. Okay maybe an exaggeration but fuck me is it hard, and heartbreaking when it winds up being for not. I've been working on this a lot, slowing down, putting less chips in and trying to control pots better. It was a change from trying to get in as much as possible to flip with a volatile stack size, or abrupt end. Not so much early on but as late reg nears it's end and through the battle past the bubble and then for ladders. LAst night was one of those tourneys. With about 3 levels left in late reg I was 4th of 236, and stayed in top 10 until we got down to 50. From there I was around 15-19th until we got down to 20. I made it to 17/17, by nursing my stack down to 6 BB, then to 2.6BB getting it in with A3off, and survivng to the ladder at 15. Did the same to make the jump at 14/14 with 9Ts
Then here I am 10/10 with 5.6BB and I get KK - The only premium pocket pair I've been dealt this whole tournament. Okay JJ but that's not the premium I mean. I jam and get called by AK, they run 4 to a flush lol. I can't complain I really went card dead from 42 players remaining and just focused on surviving to the ladders rather than jam garbage in good spots to try and steal. I made potentially made 3 buy-ins more by waiting and getting lucky, but damn that final double-up would have been nice.

2.6bbs, damn! i am rarely blinding all the way down to there. at that point you're just playing for the next payout ladder. i think it's more optimal to keep playing for #1 even if it means shoving weaker, earlier. it retains more fold equity too. at 4-6bbs my range is fairly wide for this reason.

not a bad result anyhow considering the lack of premium hands. realistically you gotta ride out hundreds of MTTs without shipping one sometimes.....