Poker talk - Specifically Hold'em - Hands and or strategy

[famososMuertos]

^ ^  It's better if you post your hands without showing the results to avoid results based thinking and to make the analysis as objective as possible.  You can post the results later anyway.
...

It's actually preferable to always show your hands that way, poker hands are best analyzed as well.

Actually the point of your observation is what is sought when analyzing hands, the poker player must have the ability to constantly analyze hands without the influence of the results influencing his objective analysis of the situation.

[Betwrong]

~

It's a good strategy, in my opinion, but unfortunately sometimes I don't have the strength to use it. Often I start worrying when I have less than 10 BB, start playing more aggressively, and in the vast majority of cases it ends badly. Even though I remember how I leddered really good multiple times just because I was patient and keeping calm, I fail at it sometimes.

Not going to lie. You are probably one of th emost patient players in our series imo. It's something I've noticed and tried to integrate into my game to some degree.
~

Thank you! I'm learning from you too! I personally feel like the Negreanu's Strategy, "call almost anything, waiting for a good hand, and then bluff the hell out of it when even the river card is not in your favour" is outdated. New times - new strategies.

~

2.6bbs, damn! i am rarely blinding all the way down to there. at that point you're just playing for the next payout ladder.

It's a good strategy, in my opinion, but unfortunately sometimes I don't have the strength to use it. Often I start worrying when I have less than 10 BB, start playing more aggressively, and in the vast majority of cases it ends badly.

it's tough to find the perfect balance. i agree that the old 10bb threshold for shoving is often premature, but there is a lot of room between 10 and 2.6.

So true! As I said above, in 2020 we have to get rid of old strategies and invent new ones. Villains, like viruses, they adapt. Old vaccines do not work any more.


@tokeweed, @DarkDays and others who love to play poker, please consider joining #3 Bitcointalk Poker Series, starting this Sunday!

Let's have fun, playing good poker, guys!

[tokeweed]

^ ^  It's better if you post your hands without showing the results to avoid results based thinking and to make the analysis as objective as possible.  You can post the results later anyway.
...

It's actually preferable to always show your hands that way, poker hands are best analyzed as well.

Actually the point of your observation is what is sought when analyzing hands, the poker player must have the ability to constantly analyze hands without the influence of the results influencing his objective analysis of the situation.

Lol

[Mauser]

^ ^  It's better if you post your hands without showing the results to avoid results based thinking and to make the analysis as objective as possible.  You can post the results later anyway.
...

It's actually preferable to always show your hands that way, poker hands are best analyzed as well.

Actually the point of your observation is what is sought when analyzing hands, the poker player must have the ability to constantly analyze hands without the influence of the results influencing his objective analysis of the situation.

But you don't want to analyze a hand based on hindsight. Sitting on table you only know your hands at the start, and eventually the flop,turn and river. All the good poker players have charts they play off. They have a range off cards, the fold, call, or raise with. All depending on the position, stack, etc. Especially when playing online your information on your opponents is very limited. It's better to play based on a fixed system, and after a while you will notice if there are any flaws in your strategy and you lose money.

[jademaxsuy]

But you don't want to analyze a hand based on hindsight. Sitting on table you only know your hands at the start, and eventually the flop,turn and river. All the good poker players have charts they play off. They have a range off cards, the fold, call, or raise with. All depending on the position, stack, etc. Especially when playing online your information on your opponents is very limited. It's better to play based on a fixed system, and after a while you will notice if there are any flaws in your strategy and you lose money.

Experience is one of the best tool to make a strategy. It will also depend on your objectives for if one wishes to play safety or gamble hard and as the result it could mean a lot of losses or a a big chances of winning.

Aside from experience there is also one thing that could make one win in poker and that is when instinct is high or when luck is on your side. There are times like this for being lucky and always end up winning on cards being held.

However, there is no really best or good strategy to win poker except for being lucky. Poker players can assess wether they can win or not. So it is a hard thing to make poker as a means of living. It should not be that way how we look at gambling instead gambling should be a past time or to occupy oneself when gets bored.

[Steamtyme]

But you don't want to analyze a hand based on hindsight. Sitting on table you only know your hands at the start, and eventually the flop,turn and river. All the good poker players have charts they play off. They have a range off cards, the fold, call, or raise with. All depending on the position, stack, etc. Especially when playing online your information on your opponents is very limited. It's better to play based on a fixed system, and after a while you will notice if there are any flaws in your strategy and you lose money.

This is true - albeit a little broad for where this thread has evolved to. Anyone studying now a days is essentially handed charts to begin their journey then the understanding of why and how they came to be. The Pro's are constantly adjusting them in small ways, based on reviewing their previous plays and spots to find any amount of edge they may be missing. I used my charts fairly religiously for a few months and then moved away from them, to play from memory and experience. I have plans to look into another course that follows a completely different vein of game theory but am holding off for one of 2 bankroll milestones.

Online you can actually wind up with a significant amount more information on an opponent there are free to use HUD's and some sies even have a built in HUD. This gives you information you would be hardpressed to figure out in your head live.

Experience is one of the best tool to make a strategy. It will also depend on your objectives for if one wishes to play safety or gamble hard and as the result it could mean a lot of losses or a a big chances of winning.
Aside from experience there is also one thing that could make one win in poker and that is when instinct is high or when luck is on your side. There are times like this for being lucky and always end up winning on cards being held.
However, there is no really best or good strategy to win poker except for being lucky. Poker players can assess wether they can win or not. So it is a hard thing to make poker as a means of living. It should not be that way how we look at gambling instead gambling should be a past time or to occupy oneself when gets bored.

Experience is a necessity for anything. You can read and study all you want but if it can't be applied irl at best you can teach theory. Instinct is just an extension of experience/study/and practice. Luck is a bitch, and can be replaced with the word variance, and it hits both sides.

I wanted to clear that up because most of what you have written is inaccurate. There are definitely good strategies when it comes to poker, to think otherwise is crazy. The best in the world and even marginally profitable players use strategies some more in depth than others. There are a lot of people in the world who make a living playing poker, for each of them there are thousands who don't. Most of those are fun players who want to pop in and out and just enjoy seeing where the cards lay.

For everything in the world there are different ways to look at things. There is nothing wrong with someone treating poker like a job, they just have to train and develop the skills required. On that same vein there is nothing wrong with someone who wants to sit down and click buttons online or spew chips at a table if that's what they find fun.

I haven't had much time to play or grab spots to bring to the thread lately, lots of work lately. I am hoping to grab a spot that bothers me quite a bit, in the meantime here is the jist of it.

Having second pair with a good kicker, when the top pair pairs on the board. I really don't like it at any point but more so when I get to the turn or river. I know this isn't ideal for format and hope to grab a spot when I'm off work. It's similar to a paired flop that make a pair with the odd card out.

[famososMuertos]

^ ^  It's better if you post your hands without showing the results to avoid results based thinking and to make the analysis as objective as possible.  You can post the results later anyway.
...

It's actually preferable to always show your hands that way, poker hands are best analyzed as well.
Actually the point of your observation is what is sought when analyzing hands, the poker player must have the ability to constantly analyze hands without the influence of the results influencing his objective analysis of the situation.

But you don't want to analyze a hand based on hindsight. Sitting on table you only know your hands at the start, and eventually the flop,turn and river. All the good poker players have charts they play off. They have a range off cards, the fold, call, or raise with. All depending on the position, stack, etc. Especially when playing online your information on your opponents is very limited. It's better to play based on a fixed system, and after a while you will notice if there are any flaws in your strategy and you lose money.

I understand you, good point. I will take into account your good judgment.

But, as always everything is a balance, it is not necessary all the time to be upright in a type of analysis. For example, have you played poker looking at your opponent's cards? in case your answer is, NO! I invite you to try it.

We never have limited information, that is, when you learn to play with ranges, you stop having limited information, no matter if it is not a regular, you should never play without ranking a player, for example you mention important things:
You: The fold, call, or raise with. This is a lot of information, there is never limited information then (of course the most important, the opposite cards villain) at a poker table, in fact there is so much more in the online game than in person (Well, opinions, the important thing is to have equity in the opinions)

Hey! I don't question your point of view, on the contrary I learn from him, I just try to take your appreciation into my context.

Regards!

[Steamtyme]

Here are a few spots I ran into this past weekend. The first is standalone - Just curious given table dynamics what peoples thoughts are Pre-flop. It seems standard to me, but that's why I want others to look at it.
Hand #2 Curious to know what peoples thoughts are in a spot you are instantly nutted for the most part. What are your thoughts pre-flop, and what do you do on the turn?
Hand #3 is immediately after #2 - I have several different questions here and will post it in stages to avoid results based thinking.
Then I have a special treat for anyone who thinks I run to lucky... it was grand.

Not going to lie I may need to take a minute to recoup a bit mentally. I played about 40 hours in 4 days last week. Was doing renos and when it got to hot to work on the house I played some big field tourneys and a few of my regulars. I'd say 70% of them I ran up 5X-7X starting stacks and would be 2-3.5X the average stacks. Did my best to keep in line. A couple of them turned into card dead nightmares, and others well went similar to the final 2 hands I'm showing, not quite as dramatic.

Hand #1 9 seated Level 15 Final Registration 600/1200 150 ante Hero CO [Th Td] Action folds to Hero Raises to 2880 Villain-1 [SB] calls Villain-2 [BB] Raises all-in to 33246         Action on hero what do you do? Stack sizes Seat 1: (46486.00) Seat 2:  (132341.00) Seat 3:  (80447.00) Seat 4: Hero [CO] (113290.00) Seat 5: (57715.00) Seat 6: Villain -1 [SB] (73837.00) Seat 7: Villain -2 [BB] (34596.00) Seat 8: (70180.00) Seat 9: (100933.00)

Hand #2 8-max Level 21 - 1000/2000 ante 240 7 seated Seat 4:(63325.00) UTG(+2) Seat 5:(103063.00) Villain LJ Seat 6:(39066.00) HJ Seat 8:(66939.00) CO Seat 1(206368.00) Hero BTN [4s 4h] Seat 2:(26568.00) SB Seat 3:(154833.00) BB Villain [LJ] opens to 4000 Folds to Hero [BTN]  Call *** FLOP *** [4d Ac Ad] Pot-12680.00     Villain bets 6340.00 Hero??

Hand #3 8 max Level 21 next hand full seats 1000/2000/240 Seat 7:(23656.00) UTG(+2) Seat 6:(38586.00) UTG(+1) Seat 8:(66459.00) LJ Seat 1:(220908.00) Hero HJ [9h Ac] Seat 2:(25088.00) CO Seat 3:(156273.00) BTN Seat 4:(60845.00) SB Seat 5:(92243.00) Villain BB Hero Opens to 4600 Folds to BB who calls *** FLOP *** [Ah 4c Jc] Pot 12120.00 Villain leads for 6060.00 Hero Calls I found this hand interesting at the time and am interested in a few different opinions So I'll start here thoughts on the open and call?? I am like top 4 of 140-160 left I think atm. 99 cash This is the same villain from the previous hand.

These 2 speak for themselves hmmmmm.

Level 24 1750/3500 420 Seat 2:(58284.00) UTG(+1) Seat 3:(252696.00) UTG(+2) Seat 4:(96361.00) LJ Seat 5:(60325.00) HJ Seat 6:(142696.00) Villain-1 CO Seat 7:(107434.00) Seat 8:(55628.00) Villain-2 SB Seat 1:(284525.00) Hero BB [Ah Ad] Villain-1 opens to      7000 Villain-2 Jams all-in   55208 Hero Jams all-in Villain-1 calls and is all in Main Pot - 168984 Side pot - 174136 Villain-1 shows [Qh Qs] Villain-2 shows [3h 3c] Board runs out.... Oh wait yeah I'm like 4th at the moment within 20K of the chip leader and we are 100K+ away from the pack. Sorry I'll get on with it. [5h Jc Kd 8h] Yeah super pumped everything is amazing, nothing stopping this train gonna ship a biggie and river is [Qd]   Hold on I think I'm going to be sick.

Hand #4 Here is a spot that pretty much put the nail in the coffin. I did hold on for a while after but just couldn't generate a stack again. Finished 28th Blinds 3500/7000/840 Villain CO (99658) raises to 17500 Hero BTN   (244040) Jams all-in [Ad Kd] SB         (144560) Fold BB         (266500) Fold Villain calls and shows [Qd Qh] *** RIVER *** [7d 2h Ah Kh] [9h] That last hand I included the Stack sizes that matter, thoughts on my play there.

Made the last hand #4 as it began to bother me. I commented this below and thought I'd bring it here for others that participate.

My thoughts were that I didn't want the BB mixing in, they had been playing a lot of pots on the cheap and postflop could be a nightmare if I miss. CO hadn't been particularly active but with ~17 BB, I had the top of my range and figured I could likely re-steal.
In the end results based I could have called and jammed flop, but that only fits this hand. Even then I likely would have bet on the smaller side to keep them in.
Personally I think it's a solid play, but that's why I need outside opinions.

[figmentofmyass]

hand #1 seems like a decent spot to stack off, depending on your strategy. small chance you're dominated but usually not as most villains aren't shoving so huge w/ QQ-AA there. i think you're generally a 60/40 favorite, maybe better, against a typical range there.

hand #2---preflop i'm in position, can take the pot if i sense weakness postflop, plus set mining. hard to say what i'd do on the turn not knowing what you did postflop and what villain did on the turn. tbh i like to 3-bet postflop in spots like these because slow playing can generate big dangerous pots that are tough to play on turn/river against Ax.

hand #3---A9o is not my favorite opening hand, it's near the margins full ring, but i think the open and call are fine. i'm curious to see what he did on the turn.

[Steamtyme]

~snip~

Thanks for the input as always. I'll hold off on filling in any of the gaps atm in case anyone else wants to join in the discussion before I update which will likely be tomorrow. I will say this much as it shouldn't affect anybody's opinions.

Hand#1 - My thoughts were mostly centered on whether or not the SB could be trapping with the flat. Likely because it's a position I'm focusing more attention on. I've drastically cut back my SB 3-bets, not so much to trap but I found to many 3-bet pots to play out terribly from the SB unless I flop the nuts. I've also reduced my SB calls as I felt I was defending it to often. BB is essentially a cointoss if you don't know the guy, could have a BB special or just be trying to steal.

Hand#2 -

tbh i like to 3-bet postflop in spots like these because slow playing can generate big dangerous pots that are tough to play on turn/river against Ax.

I like the sounds of that. I won't get into what I did yet but I have run into spots like this where I wind up with the bottom boat for that reason AX hitting turn/river. I just can't decide if long run I'm losing more chips to them hitting the nuts with a slow play or by driving them off.

Curious what sizing would you go with for your 3-bet?

Hand #3 - yeah A9o has almost no open for me apart from SB, maybe BTN (rarely). The open was definitely more table dynamics and bubble pressure. I had most of the table covered many times over and people were playing tight.

The last little hand I posted with Ad Kd, curious for your opinion on play here. My thoughts were that I didn't want the BB mixing in, they had been playing a lot of pots on the cheap and postflop could be a nightmare if I miss. CO hadn't been particularly active but with ~17 BB, I had the top of my range and figured I could likely re-steal.
In the end results based I could have called and jammed flop, but that only fits this hand. Even then I likely would have bet on the smaller side to keep them in.
Personally I think it's a solid play, but that's why I need outside opinions.

[figmentofmyass]

tbh i like to 3-bet postflop in spots like these because slow playing can generate big dangerous pots that are tough to play on turn/river against Ax.

I like the sounds of that. I won't get into what I did yet but I have run into spots like this where I wind up with the bottom boat for that reason AX hitting turn/river. I just can't decide if long run I'm losing more chips to them hitting the nuts with a slow play or by driving them off.

Curious what sizing would you go with for your 3-bet?

how often can you get someone to fold Ax there? how often will they give you action with no A if you call behind the flop?

re sizing, i approach it the same way i'd play against a flush draw. the odds are pretty similar. somewhere in the 3x-4x range seems good to extract value if he calls.

The last little hand I posted with Ad Kd, curious for your opinion on play here. My thoughts were that I didn't want the BB mixing in, they had been playing a lot of pots on the cheap and postflop could be a nightmare if I miss. CO hadn't been particularly active but with ~17 BB, I had the top of my range and figured I could likely re-steal.
In the end results based I could have called and jammed flop, but that only fits this hand. Even then I likely would have bet on the smaller side to keep them in.
Personally I think it's a solid play, but that's why I need outside opinions.

that's a fine way to play AK. it's a potential nightmare postflop, as you rightly point out. when we account for fold equity, it makes sense.

[Steamtyme]

Next step in hands from this post.

Hand #1 Hero Re-Jams covering everyone Villain-1 SB folds *** RIVER *** [2s Kd 2d 6c] [Jh]                    Main pot 73122.00 Hero shows [Th Ts] Villain 2 BB shows [8h 8d]

Hand #2 Hero Flat calls Flop bet *** TURN *** [4d Ac Ad] [9c] Pot 25360.00                  Villain Checks Hero ??

Hand #3 *** TURN *** [Ah 4c Jc] [Qd] Pot-24240.00 Villain leads again  12120.00 Hero?? Thoughts??

[Globb0]

Do you beat yourself up because the player had the ridiculous hand?

Its not in your control. I lost a few AA now. Jammy bastards.

[Steamtyme]

Do you beat yourself up because the player had the ridiculous hand?
Its not in your control. I lost a few AA now. Jammy bastards.

Not at all a "beat myself up" sort of spot, it wasn't my mistake that cost me chips just variance, that doesn't mean I didn't feel sick for a good little while after. This one stung more than others with the absolute beautiful spot it was... not to mention my position in the tournament. Generally I can shrug these off after a few minutes, but that one stung for quite some time.
There are a few positive takeaways from this though. I had played well enough that this wasn't my tournament life. Those hurt a bit more. I kept my composure mostly as I did manage to run my stack up again. Not to mention I got it in good... you just lose sometimes.

I would say the hardest part of a bad beat in a tournament is having to sit there and keep your shit together to try and comeback. Cash game you can just shut it down walk away get your calm. Tournament not so much... here's your next hand...suck it up buttercup. lol

To add to that I love the jammy bastards, just not this time 

[arallmuus]

I would say the hardest part of a bad beat in a tournament is having to sit there and keep your shit together to try and comeback. Cash game you can just shut it down walk away get your calm. Tournament not so much... here's your next hand...suck it up buttercup. lol

The thing about staying calm and get our shit back together isnt as easy as it seems, especially when you only have that small stack of chips while the players before your turn have those big stack of chips. Those with small stacks of chips will get pressured easily with few raise and that might makes it even harder to stay with our composure throughout the game. Imagine getting bullied by the rest of the table and your hands sucks  . It totally left bitter taste on my mouth

Not to mention that the game has progress quite long and there is some good amount of ante that you have paid, now your tiny stack of chips getting smaller 

[figmentofmyass]

Hand #2
Hero Flat calls Flop bet

*** TURN *** [4d Ac Ad] [9c] Pot 25360.00                 

Villain Checks
Hero ??

i hate seeing any 9-K here. flying blind but you have to bet into him---why else would you flat call the flop?

lemme guess, he check-raised you?

Hand #3

*** TURN *** [Ah 4c Jc] [Qd] Pot-24240.00

Villain leads again  12120.00
Hero??

hmmm, that kicker.....

any reads on this guy? have you seen him double/triple barrel before?

[Savemore]

I would say the hardest part of a bad beat in a tournament is having to sit there and keep your shit together to try and comeback. Cash game you can just shut it down walk away get your calm. Tournament not so much... here's your next hand...suck it up buttercup. lol

The thing about staying calm and get our shit back together isnt as easy as it seems, especially when you only have that small stack of chips while the players before your turn have those big stack of chips. Those with small stacks of chips will get pressured easily with few raise and that might makes it even harder to stay with our composure throughout the game. Imagine getting bullied by the rest of the table and your hands sucks  . It totally left bitter taste on my mouth

Not to mention that the game has progress quite long and there is some good amount of ante that you have paid, now your tiny stack of chips getting smaller 

Psychology is important when it comes to joining and participating in certain poker tournament. You should have set of rules that you should always to follow in order to stay calm that can lead to create proper plan and strategy that you can able to use.  The pressure is real especially if you have only small stack of chips while the other players around you have towers of chips and there is psychological reason behind it where you think that your chips can easily be lost because it is outnumbered.

[johhnyUA]

The thing about staying calm and get our shit back together isnt as easy as it seems, especially when you only have that small stack of chips while the players before your turn have those big stack of chips. Those with small stacks of chips will get pressured easily with few raise and that might makes it even harder to stay with our composure throughout the game. Imagine getting bullied by the rest of the table and your hands sucks   . It totally left bitter taste on my mouth

In my experience, most of my opponents in such cases starting to play very aggressive, with all-in at preflop. Or at least, those who will stay on the table  

If you left with amount of chips like x3-x4 BB there is really no way except all-in and hoping that your opponent will fail with his hand. In that cases i'm trying to fold if i don't have a strong hand (something like 9-9 at least).  If a dude has x10 BB, he getting more cautious and more vulnerable (from my own experience)  

[Steamtyme]

Hand#2
i hate seeing any 9-K here. flying blind but you have to bet into him---why else would you flat call the flop?
lemme guess, he check-raised you?

I did bet into him 8600 into Main pot 25360.00

He folded. I would have been equally worried about any 5 coming off. I don't think I was getting anything from them on this hand. Pretty sure it was a bluff bet on the flop assuming I had missed the board.

Hand #3

*** TURN *** [Ah 4c Jc] [Qd] Pot-24240.00

Villain leads again  12120.00
Hero??

hmmm, that kicker.....

any reads on this guy? have you seen him double/triple barrel before?

So you may recall this was the same guy from Hand#2. This is the hand immediately after that.

Hard to say and maybe I just got lucky but his 1/2 pot betsizing seemed to be mid strength hands. Villain hadn't been overly active but I also hadn't seen a ton of his hands played go to showdown. They leaned on the aggression. While I'm not yet worried about KxTx, it's a possibility and there could be aggressively betting a draw. I try not to be to biased but it is also the BB, so I'm less inclined to think they are holding AK,AQ without a 3-bet pre, AJ/AT are my biggest concerns.

I called the turn

***CNTD Final*****
*** RIVER *** [Ah 4c Jc Qd] [5d] Pot-48480.00

Villain bets 24240.00
Hero ?? How do we end it??

So the triple barrel happened. Not loving life atm and seriously beginning to question the holdings I state above. The flush draw bricked, and apart from 2x3x getting there for the straight the board texture hasn't really changed from turn to river.  

I really only see 2 options here. The Flat or the Fold. The line has me confused and only makes sense to me if they flopped a set/2pair/straight, at this point even AK seems unlikely for what has me beat following this line. Even then I question their decision to lead out on the flop, so I'm left wondering if it's any number of other combos that I either beat or draws that missed.

I eventually put in the call, used up almost all my time bank thinking about it. Given what I've already said the betsizing also had me confused. I've shown a willingness to call. on the river they only have 70K to start and their bet of 24K into 48K seems a bit on the weak side. This spot nutted or bluff generally gets jammed on the river, maybe they are trying to induce me to put them in. That has been my instinct in the past, but isn't on the table in this spot.

Showdown is

Hero [9h Ac] (a pair of Aces [Ah Ac Qd Jc 9h])
Villain shows [Qc Tc] (a pair of Queens [Qd Qc Ah Jc Tc])

And now the line makes sense to some extent. I also think they made assumptions between last hand and this hand imo. They lead out with their flush draw, picked up equity on the turn and continued, then the river I'm guessing they turned their missed flush draw into a bluff but didn't size it accordingly; that or overvalued the second pair.

[figmentofmyass]

So you may recall this was the same guy from Hand#2. This is the hand immediately after that.

ah, i hadn't paid attention to the seat numbers, didn't realize it was the same villain.

And now the line makes sense to some extent. I also think they made assumptions between last hand and this hand imo. They lead out with their flush draw, picked up equity on the turn and continued, then the river I'm guessing they turned their missed flush draw into a bluff but didn't size it accordingly; that or overvalued the second pair.

nice one, interesting hand. the semi-bluff on the flush draw had obviously occurred to me but i didn't put too much thought into the turned straight draw or second pair possibilities.

what was the range you put him on when you called the river?