[AMA] The Life of a Professional Gambler

[tyKiwanuka]

Since there are always a lot of myths and misconceptions surrounding people that gamble for a living, I am opening this thread and you can ask me anything. Feel free to post your questions and I will try to give a bit of an insight of what gambling for a living means and what challenges, dis-/advantages, problems etc. come with it.


This thread is not supposed to be some place to brag. I am doing this since around 15 years and had my ups and downs. I was never a highroller, but was always able to make enough money to survive - and a bit more. Forget about the idea, that every click of the mouse is a new Lambo. I won't give any actual numbers (this is probably what people are interested the most in ) so don't bother asking such questions.
There are many ways to be successful and every gambler has his own methods to extract money from the markets. So I can only share my very own experiences/knowledge and maybe some stuff and stories from my little network. There are people that go a completely different route, all roads lead to Rome.

Most of the things will refer to sportsbetting/-trading as this is what I am doing and what is, hand in hand with poker, the only gambling area, where you can actually make money longterm. Feel free, to prove me wrong on that one


This is a self-moderated thread, since I don't want it to evolve into some spam megathread, which unfortunately is the fate of so many threads in gambling board. So please stay on topic and don't spam for signature purposes.


Some glossary:

• Have you ever been scammed by a bookmaker ?
• How to spot a scam book ?
• Which bookmakers do you use ?
• How did you start and with how much money ?
• Do you have a daily target ?
• What motivates you to do this job ?
• Do you have any additional job ?
• What is your advice for newbies ? 1 2
• What sports/leagues do you bet on ?
• Do you play poker too ? 1 2
• Are you addicted to gambling ?
• What do your family and friends think about this ?
• How do you handle losing streaks ?
• Have you ever thought about qutting and what were the reasons ?
• How to spot valuable odds ? 1 2
• What do you think about paid tipsters ?
• How did you find your niche ?
• Do/Did you have any fallback plan ?
• Legal and cultural issues
• What about Martingale ?
• Differences between punting and trading
• Luck and losing big money in Poker
• How does a day of betting look for you ?
• Do you need luck to make money with betting ?
• Variance and bad luck
• Good/bad sports/leagues to make money with
• Wealthy players in poker
• Money Management and starting bank 1 2
• (Not) Contributing to society
• Bluffing in poker 1 2 (from @Steamtyme)
• Do you have any plans for retirement ?
• How can you know that a single bet has value ?
• Are there any books your would recommend ?
• Disadvantage of being a pro gambler 1 2
• Getting bullied by authorities
• The biggest loss
• The best bet ever
• Opinon about Casinos

[safari88]

i saw a youtube video like how to cheat a casino but did know how to do that? and did you ever try it on another website to see how it works?

[AniviaBtc]

i saw a youtube video like how to cheat a casino but did know how to do that? and did you ever try it on another website to see how it works?

In a licensed gambling site, the government will take action if there are reports that a gambling site can be easily hacked and scammed. Decentralized gambling sites are more likely to have that kind of features because they want people to play gambling in a 100% legit site that will surely make people entertain and enjoy. An authorized gambling site will always fixed some bugs and errors that occurs day by day that's why it is very impossible for you to cheat in a casino. If your cheat works, then that gambling site is trash and most probably, people will not play in that casino which is easily manipulated by hacks and cheats. Nobody wants to be cheated, nobody wants an unfair game when there are money involve. There's no easy money, and gambling is all about luck, some sort of strategies, patience and humble.

[tyKiwanuka]

Have you ran into any crypto gambling sites that have actually turned out to be a scam that ran off with your funds? If so how much did they end up getting away with and do you have tips to spot these.

Yes, I did. I have been scammed by two crypto-only books (and one fiat bookie), one of them still advertising here and the other one used to advertise here.

First case was, when me and a fellow punter played an early odds parlay for Chinese Basketball. It was the last round of the season and the odds for some of the games were completely wrong. So we parlayed the very wrong ones. During the following days, the odds were changed and were completely different (among all books) when the games started. I checked my betting history and my bet slip was still open, not cancelled/voided. Games finished and all our selections won, so did the parlay. Went to check my balance and it wasn't as high as it should have been So checked my betting history and the bookmaker settled the parlay as won, but lowered all odds to how the odds were shortly before kick-off. So a parlay with odds of >100 was turned into a parlay with odds of like 8 iirc. Around 1 BTC less payout, which was around 15k Euro at that time if my mind serves me right.

Second case was a bit different. I was exploiting some bug in a betting software and/or some dumbness and ignorance from the odds compilers. This is maybe not 100% morally okay, but a) bookmakers are rich and b) bookmakers take advantage of your mistakes all the time, so I can take advantage of their mistakes as well - this is a competition in the end. They noticed what I did and just settled the bet as lost, although it won. While I am okay with them not paying me any winnings, I would have expected them to at least return my stakes on that one (was 0.2 BTC). Bookmakers make good money and should either take such things on the chin, pay the customer and learn from it or at least return the stake and kick that customer. In my case, I "showed" them a bug and think I should have at least gotten my initial deposit/stake as a bug bounty. Probably saved them some money down the road But what can you do, that money is lost and I was aware of the risk.

Speaking of being aware of the risk, I am always willing to even gamble at maybe scam books. In the end it's a cost-benefit relation. If I am able to make good money with their odds, I will try to take advantage of that, knowing that I maybe won't get paid. The possible benefit often outweighs the risk. And most scam books do actually pay - up to a certain point. It often takes a longer time for them to spot a successful customer. If you are doing frequent smaller withdrawals, you can often fly under the radar for quite some time. And by the time they scam you (i.e. not pay you), you probably already have taken out five times the amount they are going to scam you. So, even though I was scammed and I was expecting it, it still was EV+ to play there in the end and take the risk.


How to spot a scammy book is pretty difficult, as they are often starting their business with everything running smoothly. Only at a later point they will probably start to scam (see all the scam ICO's in crypto). I was never the one to immediately register with new bookmakers and deposit huge amounts. I am always more in a waiting position and observe what other players are experiencing (just checking some betting forums or googling a bit).
There will be always be some scam accusations for any bookmaker (mostly from frustrated customers ) and in the end you can never be sure.

[tyKiwanuka]

i saw a youtube video like how to cheat a casino but did know how to do that? and did you ever try it on another website to see how it works?

I am not interested in cheating. I am taking advantage of mistakes they make with being careless or ignorant, but cheating is something else. Even if there is a possibilty to cheat a scam book and make big money from it, I probably wouldn't do it. You are not harming the people behind that company with it, but your fellow punters in the end, because the money you cheat comes from them And you harm all the employees that lose their job and have some mouths to feed.

I actually already wrote to bookmakers, if I saw something that would cost them lots of money.

[sunsilk]

What were the fiat bookies or casinos that you have been with all over the years, preferably the longer ones where you have stayed.

Now, in crypto, I have the same question. Well, with your disclaimer, I'm actually interested with that but anyway you have said it already so no more questions with that.

Last question, how much capital or do you have a specific amount of capital to start the day? and for you to stop and get to say that you have a profit, how much profit or percentage do you have to achieve within the day? I hope these questions are okay to you.

[LbtalkL]

It is great to hear someone in gambling for around 15 years. Anyways, my question is how do you survive? given that gambling is not always winning. what are your strategies and discipline? Did it come out on your mind selling one of your properties just to do gambling or did you just borrow money to do gambling stuff? I am just curious but I never did those though.

[tyKiwanuka]

What were the fiat bookies or casinos that you have been with all over the years, preferably the longer ones where you have stayed. (...) I hope these questions are okay to you.

Those questions are perfectlyy fine, don't worry.

The first bookie I ever registered with was Interwetten, an european soft book. During all the years I have registered with maybe 200+. Some of them still exist, others do not, but most of them I can't use anymore due to being limited to very low amounts or even having my account closed by them. I didn't play with all of those accounts frequently, often times they just had one good bet, so I registered, placed the bet and never went back there. I placed the majority of my bets with 15-20 bookmakers, but the portfolio always had some fluctuation due to various reasons (limits, geo restrictions, witched bookmakers, taxes, ceased operations, some smaller books were taken over by bigger ones etc.).

Nowadays I am placing my bets mostly on exchanges, agent accounts and two accounts that survived the years. I tried my luck with some crypto bookies, but they rarely have the best odds for my bets or don't offer what I want to bet on, so they are not that interesting to me.  

Last question, how much capital or do you have a specific amount of capital to start the day?

Did it come out on your mind selling one of your properties just to do gambling or did you just borrow money to do gambling stuff?

I started like a lot of people do - losing. After some time, maybe half a year, I was done with losing and said to myself, I either up my game or quit gambling. So I took 800,- Euro and that was my starting bank. I always had a pretty simple money management and I started with staking 3% flat. Only single bets allowed.
I still remember my very first bet as a "pro". It was a tennis WTA match, Bammer to beat Bohmova @1,55. Stake was 24,- Euro (3% of 800,-) and it won, which gave me a net profit of 13,20 Euro. And so it started.

As the weeks, months and years went by, my winnings were higher than what I needed for my expenses. I only ever cashed out, what I needed to live and thus was able to compound - my betting bank grew and with it the stakes I placed on bets. I stayed on flat 3% stake for a long time. And with higher stakes and good, valuable bets, I was able to make more money of course. So, I never had to sell anything or borrow money. I started with the 800,- Euro and build my way up from there.

Nowadays I still have a betting bank (i.e. money that sits on my betting accounts, Neteller, Skrill etc.) and I am using this capital for my bets. I don't play 3% flat stakes anymore, it's lower now. I was never a fan of money management systems like Kelly for example, just for the reason, that I can tell that a bet has probably value, but I am struggling to tell precisely how much value it has. So flat stakes is a bit for the lazy ones, but just suits me right. And you should always do things the way you feel comfortable, if possible.

and for you to stop and get to say that you have a profit, how much profit or percentage do you have to achieve within the day?

It is great to hear someone in gambling for around 15 years. Anyways, my question is how do you survive? given that gambling is not always winning. what are your strategies and discipline?

I don't set myself any targets or limits. I play bets whenever I see value (well, sometimes the recreational gambler in me also places some fun bets ). This can be 10 bets a day or no bets at all for several days. I don't stop for the day after I have won amount X nor do I stop, when I have lost amount Y. I stop, when there is no bets with value left. So the discipline is to not gamble when there is nothing worth to gamble on.

And I am not thinking in days, but rather in months. Every single betting person, pro or not, will have losing days, losing weeks and losing months. I have had a few losing months, but never a losing year. I was never the person to chase losses or go on tilt, I just tried to keep going and do solid work (yes, this is hard work). So discipline has never been an issue for me, but it is for many people. If you lack discipline and lose your mind easily, you will have a hard time in this business.

In regards to my strategy, this is easy: Value. Play valuable odds and you will win. There is no other strategy than value, thats the whole secret and pretty straightforward. The difficulty lies in spotting the value. But if you are able to play valuable odds on a regular basis, with a good money management and discipline in place, you can't lose. You just can't, it's maths.

[dimonstration]

How you started on it? What motivates you to keep doing it knowing that you already won a lot. And able to sustain your living. I'm asking since Im not a good gambler,I'm finding it hard to risk money in gambling knowing I'm not skilled or lucky enough in winning in it.

[Darker45]

I remembered there was a thread here which asked whether there are gamblers who are professionals in the field that they make a living from gambling alone. I remembered arguing that there are indeed professional gamblers but I doubt if they are fully dependent on gambling for their and their families' day to day expenses as they are not immune to losses and the tide is definitely not always on their side. They must also have losing days.

Since you are a professional gambler yourself, I want to ask you this question. Is gambling the only source of income for you? I mean, are you fully dependent on what you win from playing games? And what if you have a losing streak, which I think is normal, how could you manage to still support yourself or your family and still able to go back to placing bets again?

[maloy633]

What's your attitude towards slots?

[tyKiwanuka]

How you started on it?

This I answered in the post above yours, please check.

What motivates you to keep doing it knowing that you already won a lot.

First of all I love betting. So whatever I will be doing in my future, I think it will always remain at least a hobby. It's just super fun for me. I turned my hobby into a profession, what more can you ask for job wise.

I won a lot - well there are people that have won way more than me - but I also spent a lot for paying my bills etc. So what keeps me going is the fact that I am far, very far, away from being financial indepently and the bills keep coming in unfortunately I see this as a normal job, it's just maybe a pretty rare one, but not that much different from any other job the people do. It gives you some freedom, you have no boss, no one to report to, but you still have to put in a good amount of work and dedication to keep it like that. The biggest difference for me to a "normal" job is, that it is called work, but doesn't feel like that, because it's also my hobby.

A lot of people, lets say in western countries, have earned tons of money. The problem is, you always have to spend most of it just to live your life So nearly all people have to keep on working, although they already earned so much.

I'm asking since Im not a good gambler,I'm finding it hard to risk money in gambling knowing I'm not skilled or lucky enough in winning in it.

No problem being a bad gambler, most of the people are. There are games (dice, roulette etc.) you just can't beat, no matter how hard you try. There are certain games though (betting & Poker), where you can win, if you develop skills. And you don't even need luck with these.

I remembered there was a thread here which asked whether there are gamblers who are professionals in the field that they make a living from gambling alone. I remembered arguing that there are indeed professional gamblers but I doubt if they are fully dependent on gambling for their and their families' day to day expenses as they are not immune to losses and the tide is definitely not always on their side. They must also have losing days.

Since you are a professional gambler yourself, I want to ask you this question. Is gambling the only source of income for you? I mean, are you fully dependent on what you win from playing games? And what if you have a losing streak, which I think is normal, how could you manage to still support yourself or your family and still able to go back to placing bets again?

I used to have a little job, which gave me a small steady income and also paid for my health insurance and things like that. I liked that job, since it put me away from my screens for some hours every week and sort of refreshed my mind. I never liked to spend the whole day in front of the computer, I always looked for some variety, which that job gave me, but also doing some sports, going out, doing this and that. I don't have that job anymore, so I am relying solely on my bets now, which is putting some pressure on I must confess.

Losing streaks happen of course. To go through this drought you should have a money reserve on top of your betting bank. There is different opinions on how much money that should be; I think it should be as much money as you need for the next 6 months without earning a penny with betting.

What's your attitude towards slots?

Slots are not a way to make money. You can of course play slots to entertain yourself a bit, but don't expect to win anything; every hobby costs some money. Slots are pretty addictive, so if you have other options to entertain yourself, I would probably choose those.

[Ailmand]

Since you are earning through gambling, would you say that you are the type of gambler whose aim is just to earn, or do you juat do it for fun? How much time do you spend gambling everyday?  Would you give an advice to people who are planning to make gambling a profession.

[swogerino]

It is great to see such a thread with a person that makes a living from gambling.Now it is only natural to me to ask in what markets you have won more often than you have lost as this is the only way to be profitable and of course the odds need to be relatively higher.

[slaman29]

Hi tyKi, thanks for sharing the story of this. I actually have only spoken in real life to professional esports players (very low level but they were still very knowledgeable) and I've always wanted to know how pro gamblers view their life and how they got into it!

Poker seems to me like the way to go to, but how do you play online when there are so many bots taking player places. Each game can last hours and hours, how do you keep all that while being sane?

[Ucy]

Well, I never doubted that some make money from skill-based gambling. Afterall it involves skills or talents. By the way, If you keep competiting with less skillful/talented players, you will most likely be successful skill-based gambler. And  with enough data or information, you could also do fine in gambling like sports betting.

[LbtalkL]

Did it come out on your mind selling one of your properties just to do gambling or did you just borrow money to do gambling stuff?

I started like a lot of people do - losing. After some time, maybe half a year, I was done with losing and said to myself, I either up my game or quit gambling. So I took 800,- Euro and that was my starting bank. I always had a pretty simple money management and I started with staking 3% flat. Only single bets allowed.
I still remember my very first bet as a "pro". It was a tennis WTA match, Bammer to beat Bohmova @1,55. Stake was 24,- Euro (3% of 800,-) and it won, which gave me a net profit of 13,20 Euro. And so it started.

As the weeks, months and years went by, my winnings were higher than what I needed for my expenses. I only ever cashed out, what I needed to live and thus was able to compound - my betting bank grew and with it the stakes I placed on bets. I stayed on flat 3% stake for a long time. And with higher stakes and good, valuable bets, I was able to make more money of course. So, I never had to sell anything or borrow money. I started with the 800,- Euro and build my way up from there.

Nowadays I still have a betting bank (i.e. money that sits on my betting accounts, Neteller, Skrill etc.) and I am using this capital for my bets. I don't play 3% flat stakes anymore, it's lower now. I was never a fan of money management systems like Kelly for example, just for the reason, that I can tell that a bet has probably value, but I am struggling to tell precisely how much value it has. So flat stakes is a bit for the lazy ones, but just suits me right. And you should always do things the way you feel comfortable, if possible.

That was inspiring I guess making it simple and not complicated is fine. Anyways, what gambling sites are you into? sports betting sites? dice, poker, etc. Personally I have more success at sports bettings I don't know but in sports, you can pretty much predict who is winning if you know the team and sports of course but not at all time, In majority I have more wins than losses in those betting platforms.

[Tramirostronix]

Ok, so on my side I'm just curious about the reaction of your family and friends
At the beginning were they afraid of your "job", because it is not a safe one and it's an addictive one ?
Are they still afraid ?

When you meet someone for the first time and they ask you about your work, what's your answer ?

[efialtis]

Awesome thread mate!

You know I like you as a person but this has got nothing to do with the fact that this might be one of the most interesting threads ever created in the gambling discussion section. Also like some of the questions a lot, keep it up guys!

[tyKiwanuka]

Thanks for all your questions guys. I will (try to) answer them all, but it needs some time.

Since you are earning through gambling, would you say that you are the type of gambler whose aim is just to earn, or do you juat do it for fun? How much time do you spend gambling everyday?  Would you give an advice to people who are planning to make gambling a profession.

I started betting for fun in first place. By the time I learned that I can actually make money with this and now the fun and making money aspect have merged.

Measuring the time is pretty hard. I am spending quite some time in front of the computer, but this is not all betting related. I do other things, like posting here, then I would check some news/stats, surf the internet, check some odds - this is all a bit chaotic tbh. I was never the person to prepare a lot for my bets and do extensive research. What takes a lot of time is watching my sports and I watch them a lot ! This is my preparation and the best preparation imo. You can extract many useful information by just watching sports, observing things and building your own opinion by what is presented in front of you.

There is two advices I would give to a beginner. A) There is always someone better. B) See A.

And then:

• Get yourself familiar with the concept of value betting.
• Pick a sport/league/niche and specialize on it.
• Have a proper money management.
• Track every bet in an excel sheet for example.
• Play ONLY single bets.
• Start with very small stakes.
• Always shop for the best odds.
• Don't think in days or weeks. Give yourself and your bets enough time to get rid of the "luck factor".
• Don't expect to win anything for a longer time, but monitor your progress.

It is great to see such a thread with a person that makes a living from gambling.Now it is only natural to me to ask in what markets you have won more often than you have lost as this is the only way to be profitable and of course the odds need to be relatively higher.

In the early days I specialized on cycling bets and made around 90% of my profits with it. I then specialized in winter sports (Biathlon, Cross-Country, Nordic Combined, Ski jumping) too, as it fitted quite well with cycling being a summer sports and winter sports running mostly, when there was no cycling. I would always have some bets with Football (Soccer), Basketball, Tennis or whereever I found some useful and valuable information. And then I always played some bets, that I was given by my little network. I trust those people blindly.

There were always some big events where I put my focus on and invested lots of time. This is mainly the Olympics and the Eurovision Song Contest. The ESC was quite a good event betting wise for some years, but not now anymore (for me). Olympics have always been a very good opportunity to make money in a short period of time. I remember the 2012 Olympics in London, where I worked 17 days in a row for 18h/day, but it paid off very well. Afterwards I was a zombie though and needed some days to recharge my batteries again.

The cycling and winter sports markets have undergone quite some change and are not profitable anymore for me for various reasons.
Struggling with having betting accounts available, I shifted my focus more to trading than pure betting/punting now. You always have to adapt. I am now trying my luck with german Football, german Basketball and looking to do some tennis (trading) as well again when the tournaments are in a more friendly time zone after AO. I am doing around 95% of my trading/bets inplay now.
Main stream sports like Football, Basketball, Tennis are way more competitive and the very golden days in sportsbetting are over imo. So I am making less money now compared to the past.