Bernie Sanders is the Frontrunner for the Dems

[RonF]

Indeed we need socialist/communist politicians in this country - look how well it has worked in California and countries like Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Venezuela, and others.

Street homelessness in tents, cardboard boxes and gulags for you.

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[1714773661]

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[TwitchySeal]

Indeed we need socialist/communist politicians in this country - look how well it has worked in California and countries like Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Venezuela, and others.

Street homelessness in tents, cardboard boxes and gulags for you.

The Nazis healthcare system isn't what made them evil.  It was because they committed genocide and tried to take over the world.

The Soviet Union wasn't a horrible place to live because of their healthcare system.  It was because they were run by an Authoritarian who didn't allow any sort of capitalism.

Venezuela isn't in a crisis because of their healthcare system.  They're in a crisis because they have a an authoritarian president who abused his power for political gains at the cost of the people.

Unless you believe Bernie is secretly planning on moving away from Democracy and toward authoritarianism, it doesn't make sense to compare him to all those evil regimes.

I'm not a Bernie bro, btw.  I don't know for sure what the best path forward is (and I think anyone who thinks they do isn't looking at things objectively), other than it would involve a balance of Capitalism and Socialist policies.

[Viper1]

Indeed we need socialist/communist politicians in this country - look how well it has worked in California and countries like Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Venezuela, and others.

Street homelessness in tents, cardboard boxes and gulags for you.

The Nazis healthcare system isn't what made them evil.  It was because they committed genocide and tried to take over the world.

The Soviet Union wasn't a horrible place to live because of their healthcare system.  It was because they were run by an Authoritarian who didn't allow any sort of capitalism.

Venezuela isn't in a crisis because of their healthcare system.  They're in a crisis because they have a an authoritarian president who abused his power for political gains at the cost of the people.

Unless you believe Bernie is secretly planning on moving away from Democracy and toward authoritarianism, it doesn't make sense to compare him to all those evil regimes.

I'm not a Bernie bro, btw.  I don't know for sure what the best path forward is (and I think anyone who thinks they do isn't looking at things objectively), other than it would involve a balance of Capitalism and Socialist policies.

Why are you talking about healthcare as if he was saying that was "evil"? Pretty sure he was talking about socialism after my post about Bernie and what he says he is.

Germany had their own "form" of socialism with anti capitalism being a big part of it. And while they didn't want to do social programs, they ended up having to and made up some "racial" justification for it. Not like any of that really matters.

USSR communism derived itself from socialism.

Venezula is in "crisis" because of their socialist government, their mismanagement or the oil resources and the big drop in oil prices which they never prepared for. Could throw in sanctions as well as a contributing factor. I will say though, as someone who has friends there that I talk to regularly, they all are not happy with how the west portrays what's going on in their country. "Misleading" is the nicer phrase they tend to use.

You can certainly say it's the people in charge that are "evil" etc.. But then you have to ask yourself why that form of government tends to lead to that.

Unless you believe Bernie is secretly planning on moving away from Democracy and toward authoritarianism, it doesn't make sense to compare him to all those evil regimes.

I posted what a Democratic Socialist is and that's what Bernie says he is. Not good. And as I said, maybe he's confused. But I went and checked and he knows very well that what he appears to promote is social democracy (he's used that term and he points to social democracies as examples) and yet he persists with using the other term for some reason and it almost looks like he's trying to redefine it for his own purposes. That makes zero sense and opens the door to all sorts of negative speculations as to his motivations for doing that. It also makes it very easy for the right to defeat him as the republicans are experts at fear mongering. Just need to run ads saying that he says he's a democratic socialist followed by the definition. They don't even have to get dirty although you know they will.

[JollyGood]

Even though you are not a Sanders fan (nor am I), how do you rate his chances of being nominated? Sure Biden surprised everybody with the in South Carolina but which way do you see it heading?

I'm not a Bernie bro, btw.  I don't know for sure what the best path forward is (and I think anyone who thinks they do isn't looking at things objectively), other than it would involve a balance of Capitalism and Socialist policies.

[TECSHARE]

Indeed we need socialist/communist politicians in this country - look how well it has worked in California and countries like Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Venezuela, and others.

Street homelessness in tents, cardboard boxes and gulags for you.

The Nazis healthcare system isn't what made them evil.  It was because they committed genocide and tried to take over the world.

The Soviet Union wasn't a horrible place to live because of their healthcare system.  It was because they were run by an Authoritarian who didn't allow any sort of capitalism.

Venezuela isn't in a crisis because of their healthcare system.  They're in a crisis because they have a an authoritarian president who abused his power for political gains at the cost of the people.

Unless you believe Bernie is secretly planning on moving away from Democracy and toward authoritarianism, it doesn't make sense to compare him to all those evil regimes.

I'm not a Bernie bro, btw.  I don't know for sure what the best path forward is (and I think anyone who thinks they do isn't looking at things objectively), other than it would involve a balance of Capitalism and Socialist policies.

That depends on how you define "healthcare". Lets not forget that the USSR used "mental illness" as an excuse for sending very large amounts of people to gulags for "treatment" based on the premise that opposing the communist system was a sign of mental illness.

All the funding issues aside, it is not the government's job to provide for us. The government doesn't create anything, it only consumes what the population creates. Creating systems of dependency on the government is a dangerous precedent because it changes the balance of power between the government and the people. Instead of the government being the servant of the people, the people become the servant of the government. Furthermore these handouts are used to essentially buy votes, using the voter's own money in a simple slight of hand where they take $20 out of your wallet and hand you back a "free" $5 bill. In exchange they get to institutionalize their control over the population via this system of parasitic dependency.

[TwitchySeal]

Indeed we need socialist/communist politicians in this country - look how well it has worked in California and countries like Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Venezuela, and others.

Street homelessness in tents, cardboard boxes and gulags for you.

The Nazis healthcare system isn't what made them evil.  It was because they committed genocide and tried to take over the world.

The Soviet Union wasn't a horrible place to live because of their healthcare system.  It was because they were run by an Authoritarian who didn't allow any sort of capitalism.

Venezuela isn't in a crisis because of their healthcare system.  They're in a crisis because they have a an authoritarian president who abused his power for political gains at the cost of the people.

Unless you believe Bernie is secretly planning on moving away from Democracy and toward authoritarianism, it doesn't make sense to compare him to all those evil regimes.

I'm not a Bernie bro, btw.  I don't know for sure what the best path forward is (and I think anyone who thinks they do isn't looking at things objectively), other than it would involve a balance of Capitalism and Socialist policies.

Why are you talking about healthcare as if he was saying that was "evil"? Pretty sure he was talking about socialism after my post about Bernie and what he says he is.

Germany had their own "form" of socialism with anti capitalism being a big part of it. And while they didn't want to do social programs, they ended up having to and made up some "racial" justification for it. Not like any of that really matters.

USSR communism derived itself from socialism.

Venezula is in "crisis" because of their socialist government, their mismanagement or the oil resources and the big drop in oil prices which they never prepared for. Could throw in sanctions as well as a contributing factor. I will say though, as someone who has friends there that I talk to regularly, they all are not happy with how the west portrays what's going on in their country. "Misleading" is the nicer phrase they tend to use.

You can certainly say it's the people in charge that are "evil" etc.. But then you have to ask yourself why that form of government tends to lead to that.

Unless you believe Bernie is secretly planning on moving away from Democracy and toward authoritarianism, it doesn't make sense to compare him to all those evil regimes.

I posted what a Democratic Socialist is and that's what Bernie says he is. Not good. And as I said, maybe he's confused. But I went and checked and he knows very well that what he appears to promote is social democracy (he's used that term and he points to social democracies as examples) and yet he persists with using the other term for some reason and it almost looks like he's trying to redefine it for his own purposes. That makes zero sense and opens the door to all sorts of negative speculations as to his motivations for doing that. It also makes it very easy for the right to defeat him as the republicans are experts at fear mongering. Just need to run ads saying that he says he's a democratic socialist followed by the definition. They don't even have to get dirty although you know they will.

I agree it's stupid of him to label himself as anything that includes the word 'socialist', but only because most people just equate socialism with authoritarian regimes that have caused millions of people to suffer. 

I know Capitalists consider themselves 'anti-socialist' and all flavors of Socialists consider themselves 'ant-capitalist', but in reality Socialism and Capitalism aren't binaries.  They are opposite ends of a spectrum, and every first world country in the world has a combination of Socialist and Capitalist policies.

My main point is that arguments like 'Bernie is Socialist and Nazis were Socialist, therefore....' are not valid arguments.  Instead of focusing on the labels, you should take an objective look at his proposals.

[Viper1]

, it is not the government's job to provide for us

That's just your opinion/wish/fantasy and not a fact. The government is of, by and for the people and it they want it to do so then they will.

[TECSHARE]

, it is not the government's job to provide for us

That's just your opinion/wish/fantasy and not a fact. The government is of, by and for the people and it they want it to do so then they will.

Nope. It is a fact. Read The United States Constitution. Nowhere does it say anything about a mandate to provide for the population. Funny you describe it as a wish/fantasy when that is quite literally what this push for universal healthcare is. That all aside, I clearly outlined why this is a dangerous precedent that is not desirable even if some people are fooled into thinking it is.


On another note:

"Miami to hold ‘anti-Communist’ concert after Sanders defends Castro regime"
https://nypost.com/2020/02/26/miami-to-hold-anti-communist-concert-after-sanders-defends-castro-regime/

Like I said, Bernie just lost himself Florida, a key swing state.

[TwitchySeal]

, it is not the government's job to provide for us

That's just your opinion/wish/fantasy and not a fact. The government is of, by and for the people and it they want it to do so then they will.

Nope. It is a fact. Read The United States Constitution. Nowhere does it say anything about a mandate to provide for the population. Funny you describe it as a wish/fantasy when that is quite literally what this push for universal healthcare is. That all aside, I clearly outlined why this is a dangerous precedent that is not desirable even if some people are fooled into thinking it is.

You're right that Americans do not have the right to healthcare.  It's not a radical idea to change that though.

More than half the UN countries have some form of guaranteed healthcare as a basic right included in their constitution.

Like I said, Bernie just lost himself Florida, a key swing state.

November is a long way away. 

[suchmoon]

Sure Biden surprised everybody with the in South Carolina but which way do you see it heading?

It wasn't much of a surprise, he won it within the margin of error of most polls.

Super Tuesday is forecast to give Sanders ~50% of the available delegates (I mean delegates available in those states, not the total) but there is a lot variance possible due to the 15% threshold and so many candidates still in the race. Assuming he does get 50% or more, it would make his path to the nomination easier.

Biden can win a couple of southern states on Tuesday, which may not help him much, but if he wins or comes close in Texas (second largest to California by delegate count) then he can put a dent in Sanders' 50%.

[Viper1]

My main point is that arguments like 'Bernie is Socialist and Nazis were Socialist, therefore....' are not valid arguments.  Instead of focusing on the labels, you should take an objective look at his proposals.

Sorry, but the stories my grandparents would tell me about what was going on in Germany prior to when they fled means that when I see more than just the typical policy debates going on, I know it's time to take a closer look at things and not bury ones head in the sand. He's clearly using that socialist label for a reason that makes zero sense which means it needs to be looked into and seriously considered. The movement on Bernie's side feels far different than what happened with Trump. I'm far more concerned about Bernie and his supporters at this point than I am about Trump and that's saying something.

I know Capitalists consider themselves 'anti-socialist' and all flavors of Socialists consider themselves 'ant-capitalist', but in reality Socialism and Capitalism aren't binaries.  They are opposite ends of a spectrum, and every first world country in the world has a combination of Socialist and Capitalist policies.

No. Just no. There is no capitalism in socialism. Period. Forms of socialism have developed to include capitalism. In the US and many other countries, it's more accurate to say that capitalism has developed to include some socialism. "Everyone" wants some level of social programs. What's happening though is that there is a movement to fundamentally shift the current balance and flip it to more predominantly socialism. You can either just ignore it and let it happen or you can make a conscious decision to support it or not taking into account the possible long term ramifications.

[Viper1]

Nope. It is a fact. Read The United States Constitution. Nowhere does it say anything about a mandate to provide for the population.

Oh good lord. It doesn't have to say anything about a mandate because that's not what it's purpose is. It's the core laws that the government has to adhere to. The "people" are the government and they can provide anything they want to each other including any social programs they want as long as it doesn't violate the "law" of the constitution.

"Miami to hold ‘anti-Communist’ concert after Sanders defends Castro regime"
https://nypost.com/2020/02/26/miami-to-hold-anti-communist-concert-after-sanders-defends-castro-regime/

Like I said, Bernie just lost himself Florida, a key swing state.

Good chance for sure. Democrats are just so stupid sometimes when it comes to messaging.

[vladimirhf]

Indeed we need socialist/communist politicians in this country - look how well it has worked in California and countries like Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Venezuela, and others. Street homelessness in tents, cardboard boxes and gulags for you.

when people repeat these infamous jokes and compare nazi to socialists we know there are 2 possibilities: profound ignorance or mental illness.
this doesn't even deserve an answer.

Venezuela isn't in a crisis because of their healthcare system.  They're in a crisis because they have a an authoritarian president who abused his power for political gains at the cost of the people.

correction:

basically two things that destroyed venezuelan economy:

- international price of oil, controlled by Saudi Arabia and Iran, the economy is totally dependent of oil price.
- sanctions imposed by the US.

it makes little sense to impose sanctions and then send "humanitarian aid" as a form of propaganda. And the international press participates in this farce.
The best the US can do is to stop interfering in other countries. All they do is spread death, starvation and misfortunes, and call that "democracy".

[Spendulus]

....
My main point is that arguments like 'Bernie is Socialist and Nazis were Socialist, therefore....' are not valid arguments.  Instead of focusing on the labels, you should take an objective look at his proposals.

Not at all accurate. There's no reason to look at his proposals seriously at all, just take him at his word as to his Marxist orientation, and disregard everything after that.

He'll just promise anything, so why in the world would anyone believe what he says? Except of course when he says he has no idea how to pay for any of it.

[vladimirhf]

But all of these countries have some form of Government run Universal Healthcare and they're able to do it for way less.

Really? Ok. Well if you're going to throw out "far less", you have to compare apples to apples which no one ever does.

The one country I did look into since it always comes up is Canada. It does not cover dental. It does not cover eyecare. And up until recently they had to pay a monthly fee but that's 100% put onto the companies now (i.e. not just their employees that they would pay for previously but also every citizen). There could be other fees that I never came across as well. Bernie wants to do all the things they don't do. As much as Canadians love their healthcare and would never give it up, they also recognize the flaws and issues with it. Long wait times for some things are one of them. But for other things, it's better. It can also depend on the region and so on and so forth. Things are never as "perfect" as the pro universal healthcare people claim and the other side cherry picks things as well.

As for other countries, you have to look into each one. Not all of them cover everything like Bernie wants to do and those that might, have other issues or ways they handle it. So the blanket "well other countries do it soooooo", is just disingenuous at best as it's not giving the public all the information they should have in order to make an intelligent decision.

Bottom line though, it will improve things for the lower end of people and it won't be as "top notch" for the upper end that pay for that premium. Assuming of course Bernie doesn't fold on allowing people to still get their own insurance which I think would go a long way to "selling" it.

I personally think that upending a whole list of things for the "revolution" is just ludicrous when the same things could be achieved from well thought out incremental changes so that the impacts could be measured to ensure the end goals are achieved. But that would be too rational and logical I guess and we live in a time of "feelings".

Edit: By the way. It's well known that a shit load of people are going to be put out of work by Bernie's plan. Can someone tell me what he's going to do with basically forcing companies to close down? Seems like no one cares that the government would end up doing that. An entire industry decimated it looks like to me.

healthcare in the US is overpriced due to this pay or die policy. Prices can go down if someone has the courage to face this exploiting industry. it's really funny how easy is to create soldiers to fight for corporatism. they stick to any shitty argument presented to them.

for those with "feelings" issues we will have psychological assistance as well.

[JollyGood]

Thank you for clearing that up. I take it all the flow still seems to be with Sanders. In the beginning of the race it was all about Elizabeth Warren and sometime later about Biden or Yang or Buttigieg but the popularity of candidates keeps shifting. How Sanders bounced back to sit in the driving seat after the early set backs is very interesting.

I wonder if Sanders will be the one to take on Trump when all this over. If I am not mistaken think next week 13 states cast their votes so let see who will drop out and who will try to hang on in there.

It wasn't much of a surprise, he won it within the margin of error of most polls.

Super Tuesday is forecast to give Sanders ~50% of the available delegates (I mean delegates available in those states, not the total) but there is a lot variance possible due to the 15% threshold and so many candidates still in the race. Assuming he does get 50% or more, it would make his path to the nomination easier.

Biden can win a couple of southern states on Tuesday, which may not help him much, but if he wins or comes close in Texas (second largest to California by delegate count) then he can put a dent in Sanders' 50%.

[vladimirhf]

....
My main point is that arguments like 'Bernie is Socialist and Nazis were Socialist, therefore....' are not valid arguments.  Instead of focusing on the labels, you should take an objective look at his proposals.

Not at all accurate. There's no reason to look at his proposals seriously at all, just take him at his word as to his Marxist orientation, and disregard everything after that.

He'll just promise anything, so why in the world would anyone believe what he says? Except of course when he says he has no idea how to pay for any of it.

it is impossible to arrive at correct conclusions from false premises. fascism and nazism were the reaction to the growth of socialism in Europe, its base is essentially capitalist, corporatist. The Nazis added "social" to the name of the party to FOOL people. It's still working, many people still fooled by Hitler....

one must be totally ignorant in history to say such nonsense.

[Viper1]

it is impossible to arrive at correct conclusions from false premises. fascism and nazism were the reaction to the growth of socialism in Europe, its base is essentially capitalist, corporatist. The Nazis added "social" to the name of the party to FOOL people. It's still working, many people still fooled by Hitler....

one must be totally ignorant in history to say such nonsense.

There's so much wrong with what you said that I don't even know where to start. The only thing you got right was about being totally ignorant in history cause you clearly are.

[BADecker]

Bernie only seems to be a front runner to some people... because he is at the rear, running backwards.

[vladimirhf]

it is impossible to arrive at correct conclusions from false premises. fascism and nazism were the reaction to the growth of socialism in Europe, its base is essentially capitalist, corporatist. The Nazis added "social" to the name of the party to FOOL people. It's still working, many people still fooled by Hitler....

one must be totally ignorant in history to say such nonsense.

There's so much wrong with what you said that I don't even know where to start. The only thing you got right was about being totally ignorant in history cause you clearly are.

try it go go start dropping your infowars links, that will be fun