Deleting 5 year old posts

[Quickseller]

Today I found over 60 posts in my inbox that were all messages saying I had posts deleted.

It appears that the moderator was incorrectly applying the rule “double posting” isn’t allowed.

The majority (if not all) the posts in question were from 2015, which is before the rule was implemented and I believe the forum generally has a policy against ex-post-facto laws/rules/regulations. Theymos has also said that occasionally posting successive posts when the posts are substantial and the person is not participating in a paid sig campaign is allowed. I am not currently participating in a paid sig deal and don’t believe I was when most of the posts in question were posted.

Some of the posts were made in threads such as this one, in which the person who I was responding to had deleted their posts and as such the posts the posts did not violate the rule in question, even if applied retroactively as the rule is posting multiple posts in a row are not allowed, and multiple posts were not posted in a row. This is clear because the posts were quoting other posts that were removed.

It appears that someone was implementing a script that uses flawed logic. Even without access to all deleted posts, you could easily see the posts were not posted in violation of the rule.

Also, most of the threads in question are very old and are not active (they are 5 years old). I really don’t see a good reason to be going back this far to remove posts you believe violate this rule (using flawed logic).

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[Lauda]

There have been many mistakes in moderation recently. This is unfortunate. Restoring them is not completely trivial IIRC.

[Halab]

Even if I agree that it wasn't really necessary to clean up an old topic, these multiple posts have probably been reported. Who is to blame ? The mod or the person who reported them ?
If the mod hadn't done anything, we would have seen messages saying: "it's a scandal, my reports have not been handled or marked as bad !!!"
And from what I can see in the topic you linked, the multiple posts of several members have been merged into a single post.
So, is it really a big deal ?

[LoyceV]

Even if I agree that it wasn't really necessary to clean up an old topic, these multiple posts have probably been reported. Who is to blame ? The mod or the person who reported them ?

Anyone can report anything, we can't blame them.

If the mod hadn't done anything, we would have seen messages saying: "it's a scandal, my reports have not been handled or marked as bad !!!"

I don't think mprep will base his moderation on possible complaints about not deleting reported posts.

And from what I can see in the topic you linked, the multiple posts of several members have been merged into a single post.
So, is it really a big deal ?

I'd say it's not necessary, and even if posts aren't deleted, merging them can break other links (such as Reference links in Trust ratings).

[RussiaCoinDotInfo]

Today I found over 60 posts in my inbox that were all messages saying I had posts deleted.

A few short weeks ago humble #RussiaCoin has also fallen foul of mprp's heavy hand with more than 10% of all of our post having been deleted.  The Russiacoin thread was started June 7 2015 and 43 of our posts in our own thread having been deleted by mprp all the way back to 2015 in the one thread.  Some but not all of our posts have been rolled into one post here and there, but others were deleted without clear reason.  When I tried to ask mr.mprp to explain why he didn't even issue warning he said its not his job to warn, just delete posts for being multiple posts.  There have been some other threads in the weeks that followed https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5241332.msg54323822#msg54323822 is one about many people's posts being deleted without warning.  

It appears that someone was implementing a script that uses flawed logic.

I have found someone called Suchmoon has even made an app or something here ([HACK] One-click mod report, not for the faint of heart) and even another link for a competition who can mark the most posts (Top reporters! ) so there is a race underway to give posters a black mark for multiple posts with an app to speed up the process.  I am not sure if I am reading this post properly, Suchmoon is even coaching people in what to say in their reports: ("Report to moderator" wording) Suchmoon also wants a second link to report posts: (Add "Manager" link to signatures) and he has it in for Sir Quickseller: Quickseller is a dangerous person to deal with - avoid

And from what I can see in the topic you linked, the multiple posts of several members have been merged into a single post.
So, is it really a big deal ?

I can not recall just now who said it, but someone in one of the other posts said something about us lower down the ranks are having their posts deleted to prevent them from gaining ranks.  I had 359 posts, now I only have 316 - a few posts were weeks apart, so it now looks like there was no activity in the #RussiaCoin thread for many months which is a blow to the stomach since our coins were lost in both Cryptopia and Tradesatoshi (run by the same people FYI)

I'd say it's not necessary, and even if posts aren't deleted, merging them can break other links (such as Reference links in Trust ratings).

The mods in the other threads will tell you they all have different opinions about what does and does not get deleted.



====

How often does bpip get updated? Sir Quickseller's post count is 14492 but on bpip it says

 Posts 14492 (Rank 27 )
Posts deleted by moderators: 53 (Rank: >1000 ) <-- not 60.
Posts made per post deleted: 273 (Rank: >1000 )

[snipie]

Even if I agree that it wasn't really necessary to clean up an old topic, these multiple posts have probably been reported. Who is to blame ? The mod or the person who reported them ?
If the mod hadn't done anything, we would have seen messages saying: "it's a scandal, my reports have not been handled or marked as bad !!!"
And from what I can see in the topic you linked, the multiple posts of several members have been merged into a single post.
So, is it really a big deal ?

Personally I don't see what's the point of reporting old posts in inactive topics (+1 year of inactivity). I prefer to mark these reports as good and do not do any action towards the posts in Quickseller example. I recall some of the reports were handled like this. (Well this shouldn't apply to every report of course).

[Quickseller]

Even if I agree that it wasn't really necessary to clean up an old topic, these multiple posts have probably been reported. Who is to blame ? The mod or the person who reported them ?
If the mod hadn't done anything, we would have seen messages saying: "it's a scandal, my reports have not been handled or marked as bad !!!"
And from what I can see in the topic you linked, the multiple posts of several members have been merged into a single post.
So, is it really a big deal ?

I would blame both the reporter and the mod that removed the posts. It is the mods job to make sure the action they are taking conforms with the rules, otherwise what is the point of having him as a mod?

In the thread I linked, when the posts were made, they conformed with the current implementation of the rule (that wasn’t in effect at the time). The person who I was interacting with had deleted his posts in an effort to cover up his fraud, but that is a separate issue.

Frankly, pretty much any report on posts that are 5 years old should be marked as bad. There is no reason why action should be taken on posts this old in nearly all cases. If you are going back this far to report posts, you are either trying to create trouble or are trying to pad your stats.

[LTU_btc]

I personally don't see much sense in deleteing such old posts. What's the point of doing it? These posts have been here for 5 years without any problem and now somene decided to report it. Does it really increase quality of forum or what.
If these posts weren't reported by some kind of bot, then probably someone really don't like you and have too much time that he went through your 5 year old posting history. Maybe he is working hard to increase count of reported posts and get reporter badge in the future.

[Mrengage]

Today I found over 60 posts in my inbox that were all messages saying I had posts deleted.

It appears that the moderator was incorrectly applying the rule “double posting” isn’t allowed.

The majority (if not all) the posts in question were from 2015, which is before the rule was implemented and I believe the forum generally has a policy against ex-post-facto laws/rules/regulations. Theymos has also said that occasionally posting successive posts when the posts are substantial and the person is not participating in a paid sig campaign is allowed. I am not currently participating in a paid sig deal and don’t believe I was when most of the posts in question were posted.

Some of the posts were made in threads such as this one, in which the person who I was responding to had deleted their posts and as such the posts the posts did not violate the rule in question, even if applied retroactively as the rule is posting multiple posts in a row are not allowed, and multiple posts were not posted in a row. This is clear because the posts were quoting other posts that were removed.

It appears that someone was implementing a script that uses flawed logic. Even without access to all deleted posts, you could easily see the posts were not posted in violation of the rule.

Also, most of the threads in question are very old and are not active (they are 5 years old). I really don’t see a good reason to be going back this far to remove posts you believe violate this rule (using flawed logic).

Believe me if I can have a way to get rid of my older Post at a Go I will be very glad to do so. But less he forgets newbies are coming into the cryptocurrency system so I will be much likely to say that he or she handling the script should know what is going to happen is something goes wrong and good topic post are deleted.

[mprep]

The majority (if not all) the posts in question were from 2015, which is before the rule was implemented...

AFAIK the rule has been in effect for much longer than it was included in the "unofficial list of rules" thread. There's a reason why there's "unofficial" in its name (and why it was made created a few years after the forum was founded) - it's my own personal effort of compiling as many rules in as compact of a format as possible.

...and I believe the forum generally has a policy against ex-post-facto laws/rules/regulations. Theymos has also said that occasionally posting successive posts when the posts are substantial and the person is not participating in a paid sig campaign is allowed. I am not currently participating in a paid sig deal and don’t believe I was when most of the posts in question were posted.

Fair point though in the wide majority of cases I've seen, consecutive posts were either merged or outright deleted.

Some of the posts were made in threads such as this one, in which the person who I was responding to had deleted their posts and as such the posts the posts did not violate the rule in question, even if applied retroactively as the rule is posting multiple posts in a row are not allowed, and multiple posts were not posted in a row. This is clear because the posts were quoting other posts that were removed.

If posts become consecutive due to deletion of another user's posts, in practice they're usually merged as well.

It appears that someone was implementing a script that uses flawed logic. Even without access to all deleted posts, you could easily see the posts were not posted in violation of the rule.

It isn't in violation according to your interpretation of the rules. It was according to mine (see rule 23 in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0), which I base on what I've observed other moderators do when encountering consecutive posts or old bumps over the years.

Also, most of the threads in question are very old and are not active (they are 5 years old). I really don’t see a good reason to be going back this far to remove posts you believe violate this rule (using flawed logic).

Had no one reported your posts, I'd agree. I didn't dig those topics and posts up myself, someone reported them.

A few short weeks ago humble #RussiaCoin has also fallen foul of mprp's heavy hand with more than 10% of all of our post having been deleted.  The Russiacoin thread was started June 7 2015 and 43 of our posts in our own thread having been deleted by mprp all the way back to 2015 in the one thread.  Some but not all of our posts have been rolled into one post here and there, but others were deleted without clear reason.  When I tried to ask mr.mprp to explain why he didn't even issue warning he said its not his job to warn, just delete posts for being multiple posts.  There have been some other threads in the weeks that followed https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5241332.msg54323822#msg54323822 is one about many people's posts being deleted without warning.  

Most of what I've said about Quickseller's concerns applies to your case as well. The deleted posts were probably bumps (or "update"-like bump posts that were either low value or duplicating content) or part of a row of consecutive posts where the content was duplicated or low value. When it comes to warnings about consecutive posts or old bumps, those are just merged or deleted - warnings are for ongoing behavior, not past infractions. If every mod had to warn the user to clean up himself, moderation would screech to a standstill.

I can not recall just now who said it, but someone in one of the other posts said something about us lower down the ranks are having their posts deleted to prevent them from gaining ranks.  I had 359 posts, now I only have 316 - a few posts were weeks apart, so it now looks like there was no activity in the #RussiaCoin thread for many months which is a blow to the stomach since our coins were lost in both Cryptopia and Tradesatoshi (run by the same people FYI)

If your "rank" was gained through posts that break the forum's rules, you don't deserve that rank.

The mods in the other threads will tell you they all have different opinions about what does and does not get deleted.

IIRC theymos doesn't believe in definitive rule lists so a lot of moderation decisions are left to moderators with different interpretations of forum policy.

<...>
Frankly, pretty much any report on posts that are 5 years old should be marked as bad. There is no reason why action should be taken on posts this old in nearly all cases. If you are going back this far to report posts, you are either trying to create trouble or are trying to pad your stats.

I don't mark reports as bad unless, according to my interpretation of the rules, the posts in question doesn't require any action since it doesn't break any forum rule that I can perceive with the information provided in the report.


@Quickseller and @RussiaCoinDotInfo, if you believe I was wrong in merging your old posts (and / or deleting old bumps), feel free to appeal my decision to theymos. I am far from infallible and maybe your interpretation is right and mine is wrong. If theymos decides to reverse my decision, I'll gladly adjust how I handle reports on old consecutive posts and old undeleted bumps.

[hilariousandco]

Some idiot is going on an unnecessary reporting spree. It's mostly pointless reporting the majority of old posts but if someone reports something  then some mod will likely handle it. I don't think we should de-facto prohibit people from reporting all old posts but reporting low-quality posts from 5 years ago isn't really needed.

[actmyname]

I always try to maintain my reports to within the last 3 to 4 months, only stepping over the bounds if the user has particularly egregious post quality or if there is something critical to check out. I really don't see the point of people reporting posts older than that: notwithstanding exceptional cases, you can anticipate that those posts would be invariably buried beneath the subsequent lackadaisical replies or beneath the newer, spammier threads in the board.

If some mongrel really has a vendetta against QS, there are certainly more productive ways to lash out at them than doing these sneaky reports if that's the intention.

[bonesjonesreturns]

The deleted posts metric has long since been weaponized.

Theymos should always do an in depth investigation before applying blanket rules and actions to this gamed nonsense.
I have seen this before. A member upsets another and they will try to weaponized the " deleted posts / certain timeframe " metric

Everything on this forum that can be gamed and manipulated will be gamed and manipulated.

The moderators in most cases are just reacting to reports. However 100% there has been some undeniably and biased moderation here in meta previously.

This seems to have improved hugely recently.specifically in meta.

I would recommend the forum only accepts reports on posts older than 2 yrs old if it is  serious or scammy. If you get reports marked bad on posts older than 2yrs old in future because they are not serious then you get a warning. 
These petty snitchers for personal retribution need to be taken care of. Wasting valuable mod time paid for from board resources for their petty personal gripes.

It is best to document all of your deleted posts that are clearly incorrectly deleted.
In this case they seem valid deletes as per the rules but still these kinds of years old posts should be kept apart from any consideration for a ban based on deleted posts / specific time frame rule theymos has.

On this occasion fault is with the weasel snitchy reporter not the mod. This will be either moronbozo or suchmoron or one of the gang that does not fully appreciate the new lauda quicksellout7 69er taking place.

Without seeing the posts it is impossible to know if any useful information was lost.

[Quickseller]

Thank you for responding. Yes, it was mprep that deleted my posts, based on who edited those that I looked at, however I did not want to call you out by name to avoid creating unnecessary drama. I have no reason to believe this was malicious on your part, or on the part of any other moderator.

The majority (if not all) the posts in question were from 2015, which is before the rule was implemented...

AFAIK the rule has been in effect for much longer than it was included in the "unofficial list of rules" thread. There's a reason why there's "unofficial" in its name (and why it was made created a few years after the forum was founded) - it's my own personal effort of compiling as many rules in as compact of a format as possible.

To my knowledge, this is the first public mention of the rule in question, posted in April 2016.

IIRC I did warn you about this in the past...

I would say however that I do not agree with this rule, especially when there is no paid signature involved. Posting multiple times does have clear benefits as it makes it very clear that you are making multiple points in relation to a particular topic. Making one post and then a subsequent post immediately after helps empanthesize the second post and would be beneficial to someone making a series of points concluded by a strong/important point.

Having a few consecutive posts every now and then when you don't have a paid sig isn't a big deal, but PG/GG does it habitually. The issue with this is that it unfairly bumps topics (like bumping a topic more than once per 24 hours) and it spams "watchlist", "show unrelad posts since last visit", etc.

Some of the posts were made in threads such as this one, in which the person who I was responding to had deleted their posts and as such the posts the posts did not violate the rule in question, even if applied retroactively as the rule is posting multiple posts in a row are not allowed, and multiple posts were not posted in a row. This is clear because the posts were quoting other posts that were removed.

If posts become consecutive due to deletion of another user's posts, in practice they're usually merged as well.

I don't think this is in line with the above rule, and would also violate the forum stance against ex-post-facto rules, as someone has no way of knowing if someone else's post would be deleted when they make a post, so they have no way of knowing they would need to edit their post. In other words, someone has no way of knowing they need to follow a certain rule when they make a post. The logic behind the rule is that multi-posting unfairly bumps threads, and spams watch lists, neither of which apply in a situation in which someone else has replied to a thread.

Also, most of the threads in question are very old and are not active (they are 5 years old). I really don’t see a good reason to be going back this far to remove posts you believe violate this rule (using flawed logic).

Had no one reported your posts, I'd agree. I didn't dig those topics and posts up myself, someone reported them.

@Quickseller and @RussiaCoinDotInfo, if you believe I was wrong in merging your old posts (and / or deleting old bumps), feel free to appeal my decision to theymos. I am far from infallible and maybe your interpretation is right and mine is wrong. If theymos decides to reverse my decision, I'll gladly adjust how I handle reports on old consecutive posts and old undeleted bumps.

This is the point of my creating this thread.

The deleted posts metric has long since been weaponized.

To my knowledge, I was not punished for having my posts removed, other than my receiving 60+ PMs about deleted posts. As far as I am aware, I was not banned for these posts. The majority of the posts were deleted May 2, in two batches, with seconds being in-between the time I had posts deleted in each batch, which implies automation was used in responding to the reports against me. I was not aware of my posts being deleted for over 3 days, so in theory, I could have been banned for 3 days without my knowledge, however if this was the case, it was not followed. I have serious doubts that I will be banned for this, or at all.

I always try to maintain my reports to within the last 3 to 4 months, only stepping over the bounds if the user has particularly egregious post quality or if there is something critical to check out. I really don't see the point of people reporting posts older than that: notwithstanding exceptional cases, you can anticipate that those posts would be invariably buried beneath the subsequent lackadaisical replies or beneath the newer, spammier threads in the board.

If some mongrel really has a vendetta against QS, there are certainly more productive ways to lash out at them than doing these sneaky reports if that's the intention.

I have my suspicious as to who is behind the reports, although I don't want to name names right now. I would understand more if the threads were active, and there were old bumps, but neither applies. As mentioned above, it is possible someone is just trying to pad their reporting stats. Or maybe someone is just trying to create trouble....

[Vod]

Today I found over 60 posts in my inbox that were all messages saying I had posts deleted.

It appears that the moderator was incorrectly applying the rule “double posting” isn’t allowed.

The majority (if not all) the posts in question were from 2015, which is before the rule was implemented and I believe the forum generally has a policy against ex-post-facto laws/rules/regulations. Theymos has also said that occasionally posting successive posts when the posts are substantial and the person is not participating in a paid sig campaign is allowed. I am not currently participating in a paid sig deal and don’t believe I was when most of the posts in question were posted.

Some of the posts were made in threads such as this one, in which the person who I was responding to had deleted their posts and as such the posts the posts did not violate the rule in question, even if applied retroactively as the rule is posting multiple posts in a row are not allowed, and multiple posts were not posted in a row. This is clear because the posts were quoting other posts that were removed.

It appears that someone was implementing a script that uses flawed logic. Even without access to all deleted posts, you could easily see the posts were not posted in violation of the rule.

Also, most of the threads in question are very old and are not active (they are 5 years old). I really don’t see a good reason to be going back this far to remove posts you believe violate this rule (using flawed logic).

I would guess the moderators are reaching for violations years back, because real time violations are decreasing. 

[Quickseller]

I would guess the moderators are reaching for violations years back, because real time violations are decreasing.  

Per mprep above, someone reported the 5 year old posts (recently)

[Vod]

I would guess the moderators are reaching for violations years back, because real time violations are decreasing.  

Per mprep above, someone reported the 5 year old posts (recently)

We don't even know what information is presented to a moderator before they act on a request.    Maybe they don't know the post date.

[TECSHARE]

Some idiot is going on an unnecessary reporting spree. It's mostly pointless reporting the majority of old posts but if someone reports something  then some mod will likely handle it. I don't think we should de-facto prohibit people from reporting all old posts but reporting low-quality posts from 5 years ago isn't really needed.

Like I have said several times before, the moderators really need some kind of feedback mechanism to highlight excessive reports coming from or targeting a single user. "Just enforcing the rules" has been a favorite little game of people targeting those who they would rather were not able to speak at all. Furthermore, the more mods respond to these abuses of the reporting system, the more they incentivize these users to do so.

[LoyceV]

We don't even know what information is presented to a moderator before they act on a request.    Maybe they don't know the post date.

I'm pretty sure a link to the post is available with the report, and if the report claims the user made several posts in a row, the post has to be checked to confirm that.

[mprep]

-quote snip in reference to the earliest rule mention-
To my knowledge, this is the first public mention of the rule in question, posted in April 2016.

Again, I might be mistaken but IIRC the rules has been in effect for much longer before theymos chimed in publicly about them. The quote in question even mentions that the he warned the user in the past for this violation. There's a reason why I took up compiling all the written and unwritten rules into a single source after all.

-quote snip in reference to merging the same user's posts in between now deleted posts-
I don't think this is in line with the above rule, and would also violate the forum stance against ex-post-facto rules, as someone has no way of knowing if someone else's post would be deleted when they make a post, so they have no way of knowing they would need to edit their post. In other words, someone has no way of knowing they need to follow a certain rule when they make a post. The logic behind the rule is that multi-posting unfairly bumps threads, and spams watch lists, neither of which apply in a situation in which someone else has replied to a thread.

Hence why AFAIK no one was punished (banned or warned) for having lots such posts merged. Either way, if I'm not mistaken, only admins can see deleted posts so it'd be difficult to consistently check whether there used to be a post or two in between.

To my knowledge, I was not punished for having my posts removed, other than my receiving 60+ PMs about deleted posts. As far as I am aware, I was not banned for these posts. The majority of the posts were deleted May 2, in two batches, with seconds being in-between the time I had posts deleted in each batch, which implies automation was used in responding to the reports against me. I was not aware of my posts being deleted for over 3 days, so in theory, I could have been banned for 3 days without my knowledge, however if this was the case, it was not followed. I have serious doubts that I will be banned for this, or at all.

Yeah, no ban was issued for the merged posts, at least by me.

-quote snip in reference to appealing the posts deletions / merging-
This is the point of my creating this thread.

Not sure how often theymos checks Meta but you're probably better off at least pinging him via PM.