Counting Cards -- a Dirty Cheat or a Legit Skill?

[akhjob]

Card counting is undoubtedly a skill rather than a cheat method. It is literally very hard to count cards when dealer, waitress, and other members of casino staff converse with you as a way to break your concentration. So your skill level should be very high to count cards. They may also implement flat deals if they suspect you of card counting.

Also how can casino kick you out, if you count the cards in your mind. They should never know whats going in your mind. 

Generally, card counters avoid poor bets, watch others cards, mainly focus on counting the cards rather than conversing with others and they make unusual bets and win. So when they find someone acting weird, they'll keenly watch you and pick you up.

[onrise]

Even in our local gambling counting cards consider as cheating thats why this is prohibited in all cards game not only in blackjack or poker but all the card games so i stand as this is not skilled but a cheat instead.

but anyway it depends on the rules in where you are playing but if we are talking in casino houses here?then absolutely a cheat that will this be decide.

If there is a rule, then one should not be breaching it. But, it is an art to keep memory of it and also requires a skill which not every one of us can possess it. It is talent and should be recognized I feel so. But yes, everyone has their own set of rules and if followed is fine or else people will switch to other places.

[deisik]

and one must have the mental capacity to remember the cards that are being tossed and are being shuffled by the dealer. Not everyone has the mental capacity of a computer capable of processing actions that are done almost seamlessly in a matter of seconds

Counting cards or remembering the cards which have been already appeared is a true talent or skill because only few people can have this kind of talent, and it is really rare for a person to remember the previous card of your opponents that was appeared until the very end of the game

I would advise folks to read a couple books on this topic

The first is Make It Stick by Peter Brown, and the other, which I'm reading now myself, is Moonwalking With Einstein by Joshua Foer. While the first book deals primarily with the issues of learning as such (even though "make it stick" refers to remembering here), the second book is exactly about how to remember full decks of cards and similar things

The truth is that you are not required to have some uncanny memory capabilities as every single one of us is already equipped with enough memory capacity. It is accessing that memory which sucks, and Joshua Foer's book explains in detail how memory champions, the so-called grand masters, manage to pull off these seemingly impossible feats

[smyslov]

Here I primarily refer to the blackjack variety of card games and similar games where you can gain advantage by counting cards, i.e. taking notice and remembering the cards which have already been seen. As far as I know, brick'n'mortar casinos are likely to kick you out once they see that you are counting cards as this is a cheat according to their books. However, and this is a tricky part, I can't fathom how anyone could reliably determine whether you are practicing this technique or not. And then, I, for one, would consider it a skill rather than a cheat

What's your take?

This casinos will never want you to win at all times, I guess they have people who can monitor those people that are card counting, this is a legit skill, because it is not easy to learn, it takes perseverance and hundreds of hours of practice, these card counters can bring a casino down if you have at least 20 card players who can do that in one casino, they are finish.

[DoublerHunter]

^ Definitely it is a skill because not all are capable of doing it. It is like your capability of remembering things that are only shown to you in a glance and you can quickly remember those things or pictures that saw for a bit and that is a form of skill since not all can do it at the same rate as you do. Nevertheless, if you will look on it on the side of the house edge it is considered as cheating so it will be better if you are going to use that kind of skill in blackjack make sure nobody can notice you and pretty much I am sure that some are doing the same as you do discreetly.

[deisik]

If you get caught I guess its cheating as they did make it a rule in the traditional casinos. I tried counting while playing just around with friends, its actually hard to do unless you have a very keen mind in remembering the cards. Counting cards in online casinos is a lot harder if possible. Should you discover a fair casino if you can do this. But you definitely have the skills if you can count the cards alone, using the counting card skill to work for to win is a lot better skill.

Im not really that good on remembering things that do flashes out on a few seconds or more. Im not say this isnt a skill but you do really need to have that photographic memory which is really an advantage into these kind of game where you can able to card count and remember everything .Its cheating on House rules but it isnt in general sense

Photographic memory is a myth (an urban legend if you please)

However, we all have a kind of photographic memory. There were plenty of extensive studies and research into the matter that show how well regular people remember images if they were exposed to them only for half a second. In the experiments all of the subjects were able to tell the images they saw a few hours ago from the new images presented to them next to the old ones. Moreover, even after a couple years like 80% of the individuals tested were able to tell if they had seen a certain image in the past. It basically means that what we see somehow gets indelibly imprinted in our memory even if we can't consciously retrieve this information later on

[BitcoinTurk]

Counting cards is not an easy thing, so I think it's not a trick, but a special ability. Although I have not witnessed the event live, I heard that there were such people, I do not even know if it is true, but in my country, a gambler had previously received cards and received high payments from several casinos. I do not know whether it is necessary to have an inherent ability to do card counting or if it can be learned by some hard work, but I want to congratulate everyone who can count cards. In my opinion, counting cards is talented, and he thinks this because he is only jealous of those who consider it cheating and can only count cards.

[Ryker1]

Well, on my own. It is a skill for there are only a few people who can easily and quickly remember those cards and count it, even when we do it on a non-gambling game only some of us can retain in their mind the set of pictures, and once flip it you can still remember not all but most of the pictures even if it is not facing you anymore. As what avicz said if you will look on it on the gambling house side you perhaps considered as cheater so if you find it as a skill you may use it but make sure it shouldn't be noticeable or else you will be kicked out of the game or worse out of the casino.
Indeed, as far as I know, it is not only you who do the same or should I say most of the players do the same but they just don't let anyone know that they are using it as well for it is everyone's strategy that will help us to win and we all know that everyone wants to win in every game.

[aioc]

23 to 1 on the poll I wonder how this becomes a cheat, I consider it a legit skill to beat the dealer and your opponents, it's not easy to do I cannot even do it because I have a lot of memory lapse, only a few people have a photographic memory it's a gift if you can remember precisely all those cards that come along.

[bittraffic]

If you get caught I guess its cheating as they did make it a rule in the traditional casinos. I tried counting while playing just around with friends, its actually hard to do unless you have a very keen mind in remembering the cards. Counting cards in online casinos is a lot harder if possible. Should you discover a fair casino if you can do this. But you definitely have the skills if you can count the cards alone, using the counting card skill to work for to win is a lot better skill.

Im not really that good on remembering things that do flashes out on a few seconds or more. Im not say this isnt a skill but you do really need to have that photographic memory which is really an advantage into these kind of game where you can able to card count and remember everything .Its cheating on House rules but it isnt in general sense

Photographic memory is a myth (an urban legend if you please)

However, we all have a kind of photographic memory. There were plenty of extensive studies and research into the matter that show how well regular people remember images if they were exposed to them only for half a second. In the experiments all of the tested people were able to tell the images they saw a few hours ago from the new images presented to them next to the old ones. Moreover, even after a couple years like 80% of the tested subjects were able to tell if they saw a certain image in the past. It basically means that what we see somehow gets indelibly imprinted in our memory even if we can't consciously retrieve this information later

Its going to be tragic when your mind pulls some memories that aren't correct which the cards were merely games in the past. It's probably possible if you have played the game over and over and you are not sure anymore whether what you counted was right.

You'd really have to be addicted to the game to be able to lay your plans ahead when you assume what cards are left.

[deisik]

Otherwise, there is no logic in raising the stakes. But then raising the stakes during the game should be prohibited to make counting cards an exercise in futility

gamblers often raise stakes after losing in a futile attempt to get back in the black. this is profitable for casinos who generally have an edge either way. they want people to raise stakes.

a better solution would be to shuffle when players increase the stakes. that gives the house their edge back

Well, that's not what I mean

And this is probably not what is meant by card counting, either. I can't say that I'm much into card games (just curious), but in certain games (e.g. poker) you can raise stakes during the game (e.g. to make the other players fold). In this case, card counting refers to deducing what cards the other players might have by looking at what you yourself have been dealt and what cards have already been played. I agree that this is a skill which every decent card player should have or develop, but casinos seem to think differently, especially when all of a sudden you start to raise stakes against the house

[aioc]

Its going to be tragic when your mind pulls some memories that aren't correct which the cards were merely games in the past. It's probably possible if you have played the game over and over and you are not sure anymore whether what you counted was right.

You'd really have to be addicted to the game to be able to lay your plans ahead when you assume what cards are left.

Yeah that's true you are going to need hundreds of games before you can actually implement it, it's much different when you are in practice than doing it in an actual game, there are so many distractions doing card reading in the actual games than in practice, but if you mastered it but people know that you have it, you cannot stay playing in one casino, they won't let you.

[figmentofmyass]

For example, if you start to bet more (i.e. increase the stakes) after more cards are seen, this is kinda a sure sign that you are counting the cards (provided your own cards are good). Otherwise, there is no logic in raising the stakes. But then raising the stakes during the game should be prohibited to make counting cards an exercise in futility

gamblers often raise stakes after losing in a futile attempt to get back in the black. this is profitable for casinos who generally have an edge either way. they want people to raise stakes.

a better solution would be to shuffle when players increase the stakes. that gives the house their edge back.

Well, that's not what I mean

And this is probably not what is meant by card counting, either. I can't say that I'm much into card games (just curious), but in certain games (e.g. poker) you can raise stakes during the game (e.g. to make the other players fold). In this case, card counting refers to deducing what cards the other players might have by looking at what you yourself have been dealt and what cards have already been played.

obviously.

i was responding to your point that casinos should prohibit raising stakes during the game to prevent card counters from having an edge.

this is how group card counting works:

1. the spotter plays the minimum and is the lead card counter
2. he signals the big bettor when the deck is hot (ie more likely to produce face cards and aces = better odds)
3. the big bettor raises the stakes

instead of prohibiting this type of action, casinos use a practice called "preferential shuffling". when stakes are raised mid-game, the decks are shuffled. this removes any card counting advantage but allows players to raise the stakes, yielding more profits for the casino.

[johhnyUA]

Casinos have the right to deny service to anyone, and of makes sense to deny players from playing a game in which they have an advantage versus the house.

So perhaps, one casino considers that counting cards are illegal, and they will ban the player from using that method. But in the other casino, counting cards is not illegal, and the player can use it as long as the player is doing without any technology. Well, that will depend on where you play the game

It's enough stupid, i think anyone here understand. As i said before, "counting" doesn't affect probability of game result. For example, we are playing Hold'em, and i have two Jacks on my hand. So, i'm counting the probability to get at least one more Jack for set. This will be 2/50 (i don't count cards at my hand, and poker deck has 52 cards). Will it affect a chance to get one more Jack? Obvious - no.

So where is cheating?

this is how group card counting works:

1. the spotter plays the minimum and is the lead card counter
2. he signals the big bettor when the deck is hot (ie more likely to produce face cards and aces = better odds)
3. the big bettor raises the stakes

instead of prohibiting this type of action, casinos use a practice called "preferential shuffling". when stakes are raised mid-game, the decks are shuffled. this removes any card counting advantage but allows players to raise the stakes, yielding more profits for the casino.

Heh, really interesting 

But you're talking about some pure cheating, if i correctly understand what you're talking about. With ordinary probability theory you can't be sure what cards will be after, only the chance to get it. Also, you should know all hands of all players at the table (if we are talking about poker)

[deisik]

I see counting cards as a skill and less of a cheat since it takes time before you start getting good at it and when you look at it in a different way it could be similar to those card memory games. But rules are rules when you're in a casino and even if it's not included in the rules their decision is the only thing that matters(once you're caught)

Emphasis is mine

And that's another can full of worms. Okay, the books are saying that card counting is illegal and you get thrown out once caught. But here comes the tricky part. How can a casino, or anyone else other than yourself, tell that you are cheating in this fashion, i.e. actually catch you red-handed? There's no legitimate or reliable way unless you do something stupid that gives up your approaches. Raising stakes can be considered such a proof from the casino's point of view (which seems to be the case anyway), but there can as well be a myriad of other reasons for doing that, dealer's choice to pick up one

[DeathAngel]

It’s a very skilled way of cheating, if anybody is intelligent & suave enough to do it then they deserve what comes with it to be honest.

[casperBGD]

It’s a very skilled way of cheating, if anybody is intelligent & suave enough to do it then they deserve what comes with it to be honest.

agree on this one, could not say that it is legit, but if you can count cards, it is a special skill, that has to be developed and trained, so could not say that it is cheating, which is related to some kind of scam with an easy effort
of course, casino has final words on this one, and they do not want to lose money, so they will call it dirty cheat always

[semobo]

I see counting cards as a skill and less of a cheat since it takes time before you start getting good at it and when you look at it in a different way it could be similar to those card memory games. But rules are rules when you're in a casino and even if it's not included in the rules their decision is the only thing that matters(once you're caught)

Emphasis is mine

And that's another can full of worms. Okay, the books are saying that card counting is illegal and you get thrown out once caught. But here comes the tricky part. How can a casino, or anyone else other than yourself, tell that you are cheating in this fashion, i.e. actually catch you red-handed? There's no legitimate or reliable way unless you do something stupid that gives up your approaches. Raising stakes can be considered such a proof from the casino's point of view (which seems to be the case anyway), but there can as well be a myriad of other reasons for doing that, you pick up one

So this is a trick used by the casinos if someone won huge amount of rewards! How can they say it is a form of cheat?

Its like a strategy to analyze the game so it must be called as skill though.

[deisik]

So perhaps, one casino considers that counting cards are illegal, and they will ban the player from using that method. But in the other casino, counting cards is not illegal, and the player can use it as long as the player is doing without any technology. Well, that will depend on where you play the game

I expected something like that. Methinks it can be now rightfully declared as an official gray area for the purposes of this thread. With that said, the case which at this point might be of interest to us (given the amount of attention this dilemma has drawn) is when it is illegal in a casino to do the card counting. And most interesting is how they are implementing this ban in practice. For example, how are they distinguishing between legitimately raising the stakes and what they think of as illegally upping the ante?

Anyone have an idea?

[shield132]

It's not a dirty cheat at all. Of course, some casinos will call it a cheat cause it gives you some advantage over them and they don't want it but to be fair who can control you online? No one will understand that you count cards but they may have algorithms that can guess your strategy and if you count, ban you. But I highly doubt that ever happens because live casino suppliers use 8 decks during blackjack and cutting card is put not in the middle but a little bit closer to 4th dack but sometimes it happens and because of employees mistakes cutting card is put on near to 5th and 6th deck but that happens very rarely and sometimes that accidents are reported by dealers and quickly fixed.