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Author Topic: Abortion should be banned.  (Read 1928 times)
af_newbie
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September 20, 2021, 01:43:23 AM
 #181

Humans say it is a human right not to be excluded from medical procedures based on sex.  Not allowing women access to medical procedures is discrimination.

Science says when a fetus is viable based on the study of human developmental biology.
There are many abortions performed when the fetus would have been able to survive if it had been delivered rather than aborted. These abortions are the most clearly wrong. With advancements in medical technology, viability outside the womb has become increasingly earlier in pregnancy over time.

Restrictions on abortion are not prohibiting women from receiving abortions based on their sex.

Abortions until viability is a decision only the mother should be taking.  Science tells us that viability is around 22-24 weeks.

If you want to be on the side of caution, make the laws allowing all abortions until 16 weeks, or thereabouts.

Restrictions on abortions implicitly discriminate against women.

Imagine if states had different laws against receiving cancer treatments based on the size of your prostate.  Some states would allow treatments as soon as the cancer is detected, others will say that your prostate has to be larger than 4 inches.  Most men with prostate cancer will be prevented from receiving their treatment in that state.  The laws would discriminate against them without explicitly stating that men are prevented from receiving their cancer treatment.

I would not compare an abortion to cancer treatments. One is a life saving treatment and one is, what I don’t think anyone would disagree with is an elective procedure. I would also describe an abortion as not medically necessary. (If there is serious, credible medical evidence that the mothers life is in serious danger, she should have the right to decide if she wants an abortion).

There is perhaps a valid argument regarding viability. However if you make this argument. However anyone who makes this argument has their credibility go away when they advocate for abortions up until the baby is delivered. I would counter however that it is illegal to take actions that induce someone to harm or kill themselves.

I will admit that 6 weeks pregnant is probably earlier than appropriate to limit abortions due to the time it takes a women to realize they are pregnant. However, viability is well past the time it takes a women to realize they are pregnant and make the decision to get an abortion (or not).

I would also say that it is not uncommon for men to pressure women to get an abortion of an unwanted baby. I don’t have data, but I think an outsized percentage of abortions in late stages of pregnancy are the result of this pressure.

Does it matter if the procedure is medically necessary?  

How would you feel if the government passed a law to ban hair transplantations for men or breast augmentations for women?

BTW, I did not try to imply that babies are cancer (although many parents would probably agree that they can suck the life out of you, especially during the first five years, lol).  The point of the example was that both growing fetus and cancer cells multiply rapidly inside one's body.  One should have a choice to be able to get the necessary medical procedure done to stop that growth.

I would be ok with an abortion ban after 16 weeks, but until then women should have a choice of what to do with their medical issues.
I think it does matter if something is medically necessary and it matters that cancer treatment is potentially life saving. Greater consideration should be given when restricting a life saving procedure. There are a lot of restrictions on procedures that are not medically necessary, for example it is illegal to sell your organs.

I am not a fan of breast implants, and really don’t understand why people get them. I am sure there restrictions on hair implants. Both are cosmetic procedures and I would be okay, and even support restrictions on extreme procedures of either.

When restricting a medically necessary and life saving procedure, especially those that do not harm other lives, you are potentially killing a person. An abortion is something that ends a life, while providing convenience to another. Arguments about viability are fair as are the morals of abortion before and after viability.


This is not an argument you are making personally, however I find it particularly distasteful when some pro abortion advocates almost encourage mothers to get abortions.  

That is a logical fallacy.  False equivalence.  A fetus is not a person.

A chicken egg is not a chicken.

BTW, we are killing life all the time.  

All the food you eat is life killed; plants and animals.

I am not sure why you find it distasteful what others do with their bodies.  It should be none of your business.

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September 20, 2021, 01:51:22 AM
 #182

Giving someone the choice to get an abortion is one thing. It is very different when people encourage others to get an abortion, to end a life that would not otherwise have ended.

A mother should have all the relevant facts when deciding if she wants an abortion.

An abortion is ending a human life for the convince of another. To encourage an abortion is comparable to ending a human life for no reason, or perhaps for fun.

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September 20, 2021, 05:00:23 AM
 #183

I do not like this take at all. I think it is an essential part of healthcare and should be available to everyone who requests it.

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September 20, 2021, 05:06:00 AM
 #184

Giving someone the choice to get an abortion is one thing. It is very different when people encourage others to get an abortion, to end a life that would not otherwise have ended.

A mother should have all the relevant facts when deciding if she wants an abortion.

An abortion is ending a human life for the convince of another. To encourage an abortion is comparable to ending a human life for no reason, or perhaps for fun.

For fun?  I think you might be exaggerating a bit.

It is a tough decision.  No doubt.  Most women don't want to do it because it is very taxing on the body, or the pregnancies might interfere
with their school or work.  Can you blame them?  It is not just for convenience like you say.  They want to get ahead in life. 
Get a better education or get a promotion at work.  That is why they might not want to have a baby at that time in their life.

I think women should be the ones deciding it, at least until the fetus becomes viable.  At that point, I agree, it is kind of cruel to kill that life.

There is nothing special about terminating a non-viable human (or any other) life; you can make another one in no time.  No big deal.

Humans are not some special or endangered species.  We are just slightly smarter than chimpanzees.

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September 20, 2021, 06:27:37 AM
 #185

That is a logical fallacy.  False equivalence.  A fetus is not a person.

A chicken egg is not a chicken.

BTW, we are killing life all the time.  

All the food you eat is life killed; plants and animals.

I am not sure why you find it distasteful what others do with their bodies.  It should be none of your business.

While it is nobody's business what another person does with their bodies, we also have to know that what others do also has a way of affecting us. Why do you think there are traffic lights and regulations for drivers? It is to prevent reckless drivers from harming others. Look at your comparisons you will find out that they are wrong too. A chicken egg that has not be sat on by a hen is a plain egg without life inside the shell but a foetus is a life growing in a womb. It is a baby unborn. Comparing plants and animals to humans is a wrong analysis.

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September 20, 2021, 12:36:33 PM
Last edit: September 20, 2021, 01:08:30 PM by af_newbie
 #186

That is a logical fallacy.  False equivalence.  A fetus is not a person.

A chicken egg is not a chicken.

BTW, we are killing life all the time.  

All the food you eat is life killed; plants and animals.

I am not sure why you find it distasteful what others do with their bodies.  It should be none of your business.

While it is nobody's business what another person does with their bodies, we also have to know that what others do also has a way of affecting us. Why do you think there are traffic lights and regulations for drivers? It is to prevent reckless drivers from harming others. Look at your comparisons you will find out that they are wrong too. A chicken egg that has not be sat on by a hen is a plain egg without life inside the shell but a foetus is a life growing in a womb. It is a baby unborn. Comparing plants and animals to humans is a wrong analysis.

Ok, captain obvious. If you break a fertilized chicken egg, it is the same thing as performing a human abortion.  Put a fertilized egg in the incubator and you'll get a chicken, no hen required.  If you buy farmer's eggs and eat them, you are not only performing abortions but also eating the chicken embryos.

As for comparing plants and animals to humans, well, do you know anything about biology?  We evolved from plants and animals.
All life on Earth has some human DNA in it.  Bananas have 60% of human DNA in them.  Chimpanzees have 99% of human DNA.

But you are right, comparison of a human fetus to a self-sustaining, alive plant or animal is not quite right, a human fetus is much less structured and is a non-functional, developing life form.  You pro-life guys brought the 'fetus is a life' argument, I just followed it to its conclusion.

If your argument is 'protect life', then you have to stop eating and protect all life.

If your argument is 'protect human life only' then, where is your empathy for other animals, including humans?  
Why are you supporting tribalism (religions/nationalism) that leads to wars?  Why are you supporting the death penalty (for humans)?

If your argument is 'protect human life only because humans are special', I would say prove it to me that we are.
From what we observed in nature, we are just another species, fundamentally no different than 5,400 other mammal species out there, and we are almost identical to about 350+ species of primates.

From what we see, the human population is growing exponentially, doubling every 70 years or so.  We don't really need more humans.

We should probably keep the human population growth at zero percent so that we can figure out a way out of this rock.

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September 20, 2021, 12:56:24 PM
 #187

If your argument is 'protect human life only'
I've always found this argument particularly disingenuous, since the majority of pro-lifers (in the US at least) are also pro-death penalty and don't seem to care at all about all the children we already have living in poverty. Most were also fine with immigrant children being locked in cages.

It was never about protecting human life or innocent children. It's always been about controlling women.

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September 20, 2021, 08:43:32 PM
 #188

Ok, captain obvious. If you break a fertilized chicken egg, it is the same thing as performing a human abortion.  Put a fertilized egg in the incubator and you'll get a chicken, no hen required.  If you buy farmer's eggs and eat them, you are not only performing abortions but also eating the chicken embryos.

As for comparing plants and animals to humans, well, do you know anything about biology?  We evolved from plants and animals.
All life on Earth has some human DNA in it.  Bananas have 60% of human DNA in them.  Chimpanzees have 99% of human DNA.

But you are right, comparison of a human fetus to a self-sustaining, alive plant or animal is not quite right, a human fetus is much less structured and is a non-functional, developing life form.  You pro-life guys brought the 'fetus is a life' argument, I just followed it to its conclusion.

If your argument is 'protect life', then you have to stop eating and protect all life.

If your argument is 'protect human life only' then, where is your empathy for other animals, including humans?  
Why are you supporting tribalism (religions/nationalism) that leads to wars?  Why are you supporting the death penalty (for humans)?

If your argument is 'protect human life only because humans are special', I would say prove it to me that we are.
From what we observed in nature, we are just another species, fundamentally no different than 5,400 other mammal species out there, and we are almost identical to about 350+ species of primates.

From what we see, the human population is growing exponentially, doubling every 70 years or so.  We don't really need more humans.

We should probably keep the human population growth at zero percent so that we can figure out a way out of this rock.

Lieutenant, I do not know what your beliefs are but your argument about man coming from plants and animals does not match with mine. Man was created by God. That's all I have to say to this. Another thing concerning the egg example you kept using is that I want you to realize that there is something called 'table eggs'. Eggs like that will not hatch even if you leave them in the incubator for a year on a hen sits on it for that long. What that means is that an egg is just an ordinary egg until a hen sits on it or it is put in an incubator but a foetus is a growing baby in the womb already.

I called you lieutenant because you called me captain. Now you can salute!

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September 20, 2021, 09:14:32 PM
Last edit: September 20, 2021, 09:51:44 PM by af_newbie
 #189

Ok, captain obvious. If you break a fertilized chicken egg, it is the same thing as performing a human abortion.  Put a fertilized egg in the incubator and you'll get a chicken, no hen required.  If you buy farmer's eggs and eat them, you are not only performing abortions but also eating the chicken embryos.

As for comparing plants and animals to humans, well, do you know anything about biology?  We evolved from plants and animals.
All life on Earth has some human DNA in it.  Bananas have 60% of human DNA in them.  Chimpanzees have 99% of human DNA.

But you are right, comparison of a human fetus to a self-sustaining, alive plant or animal is not quite right, a human fetus is much less structured and is a non-functional, developing life form.  You pro-life guys brought the 'fetus is a life' argument, I just followed it to its conclusion.

If your argument is 'protect life', then you have to stop eating and protect all life.

If your argument is 'protect human life only' then, where is your empathy for other animals, including humans?  
Why are you supporting tribalism (religions/nationalism) that leads to wars?  Why are you supporting the death penalty (for humans)?

If your argument is 'protect human life only because humans are special', I would say prove it to me that we are.
From what we observed in nature, we are just another species, fundamentally no different than 5,400 other mammal species out there, and we are almost identical to about 350+ species of primates.

From what we see, the human population is growing exponentially, doubling every 70 years or so.  We don't really need more humans.

We should probably keep the human population growth at zero percent so that we can figure out a way out of this rock.

Lieutenant, I do not know what your beliefs are but your argument about man coming from plants and animals does not match with mine. Man was created by God. That's all I have to say to this. Another thing concerning the egg example you kept using is that I want you to realize that there is something called 'table eggs'. Eggs like that will not hatch even if you leave them in the incubator for a year on a hen sits on it for that long. What that means is that an egg is just an ordinary egg until a hen sits on it or it is put in an incubator but a foetus is a growing baby in the womb already.

I called you lieutenant because you called me captain. Now you can salute!

Oh, boy.  You said plenty.  No need to discuss it any further if you think Homo sapiens were created by God.

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September 21, 2021, 06:00:59 AM
 #190

Giving someone the choice to get an abortion is one thing. It is very different when people encourage others to get an abortion, to end a life that would not otherwise have ended.

A mother should have all the relevant facts when deciding if she wants an abortion.

An abortion is ending a human life for the convince of another. To encourage an abortion is comparable to ending a human life for no reason, or perhaps for fun.

For fun?  I think you might be exaggerating a bit.

It is a tough decision.  No doubt.  Most women don't want to do it because it is very taxing on the body, or the pregnancies might interfere
with their school or work.  Can you blame them?  It is not just for convenience like you say.  They want to get ahead in life. 
Get a better education or get a promotion at work.  That is why they might not want to have a baby at that time in their life.

I think women should be the ones deciding it, at least until the fetus becomes viable.  At that point, I agree, it is kind of cruel to kill that life.

There is nothing special about terminating a non-viable human (or any other) life; you can make another one in no time.  No big deal.

Humans are not some special or endangered species.  We are just slightly smarter than chimpanzees.

I would describe someone terminating a pregnancy because it will interfere with school and/or work as being for "convenience". I don't judge them, that is not my place. I also won't sugarcoat what is happening. Both school and job opportunities will still be here after a pregnancy (they will also still be around if the mother decides to take some time off to raise the child, and will still be around for the father if the father decides to take some time off to raise the child).

I doubt that any living being that depends on you for support would appreciate it if you suggested that you could just "make another one" if their lives were to end. This would apply to your dog just as much as it would apply to your child.

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September 21, 2021, 06:26:45 AM
 #191


"Don't like abortion? Just ignore it like you do children in foster care".

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September 21, 2021, 01:36:03 PM
 #192

If your argument is 'protect human life only'
I've always found this argument particularly disingenuous, since the majority of pro-lifers (in the US at least) are also pro-death penalty and don't seem to care at all about all the children we already have living in poverty. Most were also fine with immigrant children being locked in cages.

It was never about protecting human life or innocent children. It's always been about controlling women.

What the heck, I really thought that Pro-life = pro death, is a thing native in my country. I didn't know that it is a universal thing.

Giving someone the choice to get an abortion is one thing. It is very different when people encourage others to get an abortion, to end a life that would not otherwise have ended.

A mother should have all the relevant facts when deciding if she wants an abortion.

An abortion is ending a human life for the convince of another. To encourage an abortion is comparable to ending a human life for no reason, or perhaps for fun.

It is true, and also true for the other way round. No human in existence should encourage someone in the right mind who decided to take the abortion to not take it. Yes, they can talk about the facts but they must stray away from saying such things as "that zygote is a gift from heaven, you should take care of it" kind of bullshits

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September 21, 2021, 02:03:12 PM
 #193

Giving someone the choice to get an abortion is one thing. It is very different when people encourage others to get an abortion, to end a life that would not otherwise have ended.

A mother should have all the relevant facts when deciding if she wants an abortion.

An abortion is ending a human life for the convince of another. To encourage an abortion is comparable to ending a human life for no reason, or perhaps for fun.

For fun?  I think you might be exaggerating a bit.

It is a tough decision.  No doubt.  Most women don't want to do it because it is very taxing on the body, or the pregnancies might interfere
with their school or work.  Can you blame them?  It is not just for convenience like you say.  They want to get ahead in life. 
Get a better education or get a promotion at work.  That is why they might not want to have a baby at that time in their life.

I think women should be the ones deciding it, at least until the fetus becomes viable.  At that point, I agree, it is kind of cruel to kill that life.

There is nothing special about terminating a non-viable human (or any other) life; you can make another one in no time.  No big deal.

Humans are not some special or endangered species.  We are just slightly smarter than chimpanzees.

I would describe someone terminating a pregnancy because it will interfere with school and/or work as being for "convenience". I don't judge them, that is not my place. I also won't sugarcoat what is happening. Both school and job opportunities will still be here after a pregnancy (they will also still be around if the mother decides to take some time off to raise the child, and will still be around for the father if the father decides to take some time off to raise the child).

I doubt that any living being that depends on you for support would appreciate it if you suggested that you could just "make another one" if their lives were to end. This would apply to your dog just as much as it would apply to your child.

Why are you talking about the killing of children?  What is wrong with you?  A fetus is not a child.  A fertilized chicken egg is not a chicken.

BTW, did you even raise children?  Not only your 'single plans' are on hold for decades, but they are also replaced by taking care of children.

Talk to pregnant women about how 'wonderful' their pregnancies were.

Forcing women into having children they do not want is just inhumane.  Condoms break, shit happens.  Grow up!

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September 21, 2021, 03:12:04 PM
 #194

I would describe someone terminating a pregnancy because it will interfere with school and/or work as being for "convenience". I don't judge them, that is not my place. I also won't sugarcoat what is happening. Both school and job opportunities will still be here after a pregnancy (they will also still be around if the mother decides to take some time off to raise the child, and will still be around for the father if the father decides to take some time off to raise the child).
You have a very naive view about how the majority of the world live. Losing a job or job opportunity is not an "inconvenience" for the vast majority of people. "Taking some time off" is simply not an option for billions of people. Many times there is no father or partner for support. An unwanted child can very quickly lead to loss of income, poverty, and homelessness.

Again, it's always peculiar that pro-lifers don't seem to care about the homeless mothers and children who are starving on our streets. Force the mother to have a child she knows she can't support, vote to cut aid and support for them, and then ignore them both when they are homeless and starving.

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September 23, 2021, 10:41:38 AM
 #195

Why do you think abortion should be banned? You know that if birth rate is not controlled, there will be too much birth rate which can lead to over population and making things hard for we all.
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September 23, 2021, 02:44:25 PM
 #196

Why do you think abortion should be banned? You know that if birth rate is not controlled, there will be too much birth rate which can lead to over population and making things hard for we all.

That is not even an argument to be presented as a reason why abortion should not be banned, though I appreciate your concern.

But let's just focus on the reason scientifically that a abortion should not be banned just because religion says its a bad thing.

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September 25, 2021, 06:24:38 PM
 #197

Why do you think abortion should be banned? You know that if birth rate is not controlled, there will be too much birth rate which can lead to over population and making things hard for we all.

It is clear you do not understand the ills of abortion by your view of what is discussed here. How does killing of unborn babies help in birth control when an approach of preventing the pregnancy in the first place can be adopted. People can have sex without bringing babies through protection or family planning and that is the birth control. But once she gets pregnant and removes it that is bad because it is killing of a baby.

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September 25, 2021, 07:49:04 PM
 #198

Why do you think abortion should be banned? You know that if birth rate is not controlled, there will be too much birth rate which can lead to over population and making things hard for we all.

It is clear you do not understand the ills of abortion by your view of what is discussed here. How does killing of unborn babies help in birth control when an approach of preventing the pregnancy in the first place can be adopted. People can have sex without bringing babies through protection or family planning and that is the birth control. But once she gets pregnant and removes it that is bad because it is killing of a baby.

Is a 7-week old fetus a baby?

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September 26, 2021, 06:25:20 AM
 #199

Human life is more than anything. Don’t have an abortion and commit an unforgivable sin.
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October 31, 2021, 03:56:17 PM
 #200

Abortion does not exist again many doctors does not accept  doing that again instead advice will be given to the pregnant mother to keep the pregnancy before delivering person that have know child will come and adopt it with money, pregnancy is like business between nurse's, doctors now, already anybody caught for termination of it always call to bar.

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