Buy crypto using Ledger Live

[sunsilk]

There's a recent update for Ledger live and that's what the title says, you can now purchase crypto using their app as they've integrated with Coinify. The available cryptos are not that much yet this may be ease for other users.

This feature, operated by Coinify, is available directly in the Ledger Live application. Pick your favorite crypto among Bitcoin, Ethereum, Bitcoin Cash, or Dash and buy it using your Credit Card or a Bank Transfer. Stellar and USDT will soon be available to buy directly through Ledger Live.

Source: https://www.ledger.com/buy-crypto-in-ledger-live

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[bob123]

Ledger Live is an interface for a hardware wallet. Honestly, they shouldn't integrate such services.

If people want to use such a service, they are free to visit the website directly and buy crypto that way.
If there is some kind of error happening on coinify's site, ledger will be blamed for that. Especially by new comers.

I am completely against integrating this service into a wallet. Since i do not user ledger live at all, i actually don't care.
However, i am interested to see how many people will complain in the hardware wallets sub about bad rates etc. blaming ledger.

[dkbit98]

What is also important is that with using their partner Coinify you will have to submit your KYC.
That means that your ledger will now have 'nice' connection with your photo and real documents. 
Something hardware wallet should never have...

[Lucius]

I don't see that this kind of service is generally bad, especially since it integrates the use of hardware wallets with crypto exchange. It will certainly make it easier for some users to buy coins, and at the same time allow them to stay in a safe environment, without the possibility of falling victim to phishing or clipboard malware. This will only be possible if they use the hardware wallet in the correct way, by checking each address/transaction on the device screen.

That means that your ledger will now have 'nice' connection with your photo and real documents. 

When you buy a hardware wallet you leave all your data to the company you are buying from, and at least as far as Ledger is concerned, each packet has their address prominently displayed, so that anyone who comes in contact with it can very easily connect the dots. Which means that my postman can easily understand that, and after a couple of beers in the pub, tell others that I'm doing something with crypto/Bitcoin.

[dkbit98]

When you buy a hardware wallet you leave all your data to the company you are buying from, and at least as far as Ledger is concerned, each packet has their address prominently displayed, so that anyone who comes in contact with it can very easily connect the dots. Which means that my postman can easily understand that, and after a couple of beers in the pub, tell others that I'm doing something with crypto/Bitcoin.

Here we are talking about third party aka Coinify.

And there are ways you can buy your hardware wallet without anyone knows you or your details,
for example local shops or dedicated mailboxes.
Nobody knows my details for my hardware wallet.

Retailers:
https://shop.ledger.com/pages/retailers
https://www.links.hr/hr/bitcoin-wallet-ledger-nano-s-za-kriptovalute-410600024

[Lucius]

And there are ways you can buy your hardware wallet without anyone knows you or your details,
for example local shops or dedicated mailboxes.

In the crypto community, however, the prevailing opinion is that the only correct way to buy hardware wallets is to buy directly from the manufacturer. We can discuss whether this is better or worse than buying from authorized resellers, but some people have no choice but to order directly from the manufacturer. Regarding dedicated mailboxes, I know such things exist but I believe it is not a free service and something that is known to everyone.

I’m familiar with Links selling Ledger HW, as well that Trezor can be purchased in Bitcoin Store physical offices in ZG&ST.

[dkbit98]

In the crypto community, however, the prevailing opinion is that the only correct way to buy hardware wallets is to buy directly from the manufacturer. We can discuss whether this is better or worse than buying from authorized resellers, but some people have no choice but to order directly from the manufacturer. Regarding dedicated mailboxes, I know such things exist but I believe it is not a free service and something that is known to everyone.

I’m familiar with Links selling Ledger HW, as well that Trezor can be purchased in Bitcoin Store physical offices in ZG&ST.

Prevailing what?
This is official Ledger retailers listed on their website.
https://shop.ledger.com/pages/retailers
or become retailer and Ledger Partner yourself:
https://ledger.typeform.com/to/nIcfT9
If they can manipulate and change ledger wallet, so can your mailman and customs.

If you are so concerned about that maybe go directly in their factory.

Dedicated mailboxes are not free, but people who order things online and care about privacy all know about them.
It is not top secret in the western world...

[joniboini]

Going a bit off topic here guys.

Anyway, I wonder why more and more services are trying to do this kind of thing. It's as if they don't support buying crypto with fiat then they're out of date. Not sure why I would use a hardware wallet software to buy crypto, where there are dozens of options out there. Ledger doesn't have to follow the trend honestly.

[Lucius]

Prevailing what?
This is official Ledger retailers listed on their website.
https://shop.ledger.com/pages/retailers
or become retailer and Ledger Partner yourself:
https://ledger.typeform.com/to/nIcfT9
If they can manipulate and change ledger wallet, so can your mailman and customs.

If you are so concerned about that maybe go directly in their factory.

Dedicated mailboxes are not free, but people who order things online and care about privacy all know about them.
It is not top secret in the western world...

There's no reason to think I'm stupid so I can't figure some things out. I've been on this forum a lot longer than you, so I’m just stating some general opinions that have prevailed for years when it comes to hardware wallets. You put same link again, do you think I am not capable of finding Ledger retailers page or that I did not see same link in your previous post?

[dkbit98]

There's no reason to think I'm stupid so I can't figure some things out. I've been on this forum a lot longer than you, so I’m just stating some general opinions that have prevailed for years when it comes to hardware wallets. You put same link again, do you think I am not capable of finding Ledger retailers page or that I did not see same link in your previous post?

I never said you are stupid, and being longer on this forum than me means what exactly? You are smarter than me and all who joined after you?
I don't know what you are capable off honestly, but no need to go more offtopic with this. 

I don't like option to buy anything from my hardware wallet, and I don't like Ledger Live app partnership with Coinify.
My prevailing opinion.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

What is also important is that with using their partner Coinify you will have to submit your KYC.
That means that your ledger will now have 'nice' connection with your photo and real documents. 

Good point if true--but I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing since the service (and KYC document submission) is optional.  It isn't as though Ledger is forcing people to buy crypto through their partner.  I see this more as Ledger trying to stay competitive with other HWs that offer similar services.

I haven't tried buying bitcoin through my Ledger, but I could almost guarantee that I'd be ineligible to do so because of where I live anyway.  I'd be interested to hear from people who've done it, though.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Dedicated mailboxes are not free, but people who order things online and care about privacy all know about them.

Exactly. I bought all my various hardware wallets directly from the manufacturer. All were paid with mixed/anonymized bitcoin. I gave none of them my real name, and all of the devices were delivered to mailbox not linked to my real address. It's entirely possible to keep your details out of the hands of third parties if you want to.

Anyway, I wonder why more and more services are trying to do this kind of thing.

Money. Ledger will take a commission fee from every trade made through Ledger Live.

I find myself disappointed yet again on the slow removal of privacy from every aspect of crypto. Needless to say, I won't be using this (not that I even use Ledger Live anymore). And despite how much I like Ledger hardware products, I am disappointed yet again in their software division choosing to prioritize meaningless trash like this when Ledger Live still doesn't even allow basic address or UTXO control.

[sunsilk]

Anyway, I wonder why more and more services are trying to do this kind of thing.

Money. Ledger will take a commission fee from every trade made through Ledger Live.

True.

It's the commission that they can take from the trades through this integration. This started with the multi coin wallets then slowly moved and adopted by web wallets and here we go, Ledger itself integrated.

I haven't tried buying bitcoin through my Ledger, but I could almost guarantee that I'd be ineligible to do so because of where I live anyway.  I'd be interested to hear from people who've done it, though.

I've seen this discussion on ledger's sub-reddit and majority says the cut is too high.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/h837g0/question_regards_buying_through_coinify/

I was a bit excited when I've seen this update but it seems that this isn't favorable for everyone.

[20kevin20]

I find myself disappointed yet again on the slow removal of privacy from every aspect of crypto. Needless to say, I won't be using this (not that I even use Ledger Live anymore). And despite how much I like Ledger hardware products, I am disappointed yet again in their software division choosing to prioritize meaningless trash like this when Ledger Live still doesn't even allow basic address or UTXO control.

I feel the same. The need of having more control over your coins gets even worse when you own alts and know there aren't Ledger-capable Electrum versions for that alt you can use instead of Live. At least with BTC you still have options.

They have way more important things to add to Ledger Live to improve our options for privacy & control than adding a .. centralized exchange as a feature. Might've been an addition in order to compete with Trezor, but if so then imo it's a bad move.

If it's a move for money, I think it's even worse considering that they have a quite precious list of names, physical addresses (and even BTC addresses of those who paid through crypto) they could very well sell to authorities or other third parties for money. This one and my concern from a while ago when I said I am afraid the closed-source parts of Ledger might contain something creepy and/or backdoors for authorities pop to the surface in my mind every once in a while.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I've seen this discussion on ledger's sub-reddit and majority says the cut is too high.

10% fee!? Ooft. That's ridiculous, even by these instant-exchange standards.

I feel the same. The need of having more control over your coins gets even worse when you own alts and know there aren't Ledger-capable Electrum versions for that alt you can use instead of Live. At least with BTC you still have options.

I don't care much for alts, and the only one I am regularly using at the moment (Monero) thankfully also has its own fully capable wallet which is compatible with Ledger devices. If you do like to own small and unknown altcoins, then I guess not having their own wallet is one of the prices you have to pay.

I think it's even worse considering that they have a quite precious list of names, physical addresses (and even BTC addresses of those who paid through crypto) they could very well sell to authorities or other third parties for money.

Many people will have already given their real names and addresses to Ledger when they purchased their wallet, but I guess Ledger have no way of linking those details to a specific Ledger Live account (at least, I really hope there isn't an individual tracking number or data linked to each device!) However, providing KYC linked to all your hardware wallets is truly awful for privacy.

[bob123]

[...] (at least, I really hope there isn't an individual tracking number or data linked to each device!) [...]

According to ledger, that is not the case:

[...] There is actually no way to identify a given Nano S, there is no serial number, 2 nano S with the same seed are identical from technical perspective.

Not that one wouldn't expect such an answer from them when asked tho.

[LoyceMobile]

Ledger Live is an interface for a hardware wallet. Honestly, they shouldn't integrate such services.

What's Next? Gambling directly from your hardware wallet?

[Pmalek]

Needless to say, I won't be using this (not that I even use Ledger Live anymore). And despite how much I like Ledger hardware products, I am disappointed yet again in their software division choosing to prioritize meaningless trash like this when Ledger Live still doesn't even allow basic address or UTXO control.

Ledger's priority are probably not advanced users like yourself, but those who are new and inexperienced. Being an advanced user, you can use Electrum and take advantage of their advanced features, use a DEX for your crypto purchase, etc. They are trying to provide an all-around service package.

I have no interest in buying crypto through LL, but I appreciate them offering it as an option to those who do.
I would personally like them to find out why their App mysteriously stops working for certain users and fails to start. I think that is even more important than coin control.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Not that one wouldn't expect such an answer from them when asked tho.

Yeah, and given the closed source nature of the device, we have no way of knowing for sure. Good thing I ordered mine without giving any of my real details.

Ledger's priority are probably not advanced users like yourself, but those who are new and inexperienced.

Doesn't that make it worse, though? They are encouraging new users who don't know any better to submit KYC, tie all their holdings to their real name and address, compromise their own privacy and security, pay exorbitant fees, etc. As much as I advocate for DEXs as you mention, if you are willing to complete KYC then why not complete it at an exchange that charges a 0.5% fee instead of this 10% nonsense? I can pretty much guarantee at some point in the not too distant future there will be threads on here from newbies saying "I bought bitcoin via Ledger Live and now I've lost 10% of my funds! Have I been hacked?" or similar.

There are much better things the Ledger Live development team could be spending their time on.

[20kevin20]

I don't care much for alts, and the only one I am regularly using at the moment (Monero) thankfully also has its own fully capable wallet which is compatible with Ledger devices. If you do like to own small and unknown altcoins, then I guess not having their own wallet is one of the prices you have to pay.

Many, if not most out of the top 100 alts besides the very well known ones (Dash, Monero, LTC etc) do not have a free, fully open source wallet that allows you to use Ledger with and that leaves you with no option but to use Live. Wouldn't have been a problem if it wasn't about a closed/semi-closed source software that has some questionable updates.

but I guess Ledger have no way of linking those details to a specific Ledger Live account (at least, I really hope there isn't an individual tracking number or data linked to each device!)

I do not know for sure whether Live is fully open source or only partially as there is a GitHub repo for it (I have looked everywhere for "Ledger Live" and "open-source" together but no signs so I'll assume it's only partially open), but if it's only partially I have some concerns about it. Lots of things could happen behind the scenes such as transferring to certain parties information about the coins/balances you own using the IP you're using Live with or possibly even linking your Ledger to it because who the hell knows what's inside that closed code. This is why the new feature of having a centralized exchange in Live gives my concern an even thicker contour.


Waves Exchange is non-custodial with optional KYC (for fiat trades) and centralized trade matching. You can use that one with Ledger directly if you download the app and would've probably been a better choice to integrate than Coinify. I believe Atomic DEX from Komodo also has a HW integration planned in their roadmap (I currently have JS disabled so can't check right now) and I honestly love their app.

[HCP]

Ledger Live is an interface for a hardware wallet. Honestly, they shouldn't integrate such services.

What's Next? Gambling directly from your hardware wallet?

Now we're talking... I'd definitely back this initiative!

Seems like Ledger are simply trying to spin up new income streams...   No doubt the hardware wallet market is relatively saturated, and given they're a "one off" cost type of device, there is no on-going income once everyone that is going to buy one has bought one.

Shame they're being so greedy with such high margins tho... you'd think we the massive user base, if they had opted for tighter margins they could have actually been providing a very useful and financially attractive service... but no, they went for the money grab

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Arrrgh!  I knew I would be correct when I posted in this thread previously:

I haven't tried buying bitcoin through my Ledger, but I could almost guarantee that I'd be ineligible to do so because of where I live anyway.  I'd be interested to hear from people who've done it, though.

I finally decided to give it a shot, even though I wasn't really looking to buy any bitcoin--sort of like how I just had to try using that bitcoin ATM that I posted about.  And wouldn't you know, Coinify asked which state I live in (there was a pull-down menu of states) and then notified me that I'm ineligible to use their service. 

I don't know why this is, but I'm assuming it's the same reason why I can't use Binance anymore.  Wish I could figure out what prevents residents of my state from accessing these services.  I used to be able to buy bitcoin from Circle with no problem, and now it seems there's no way I can do it using exchanges.

Anyway, just wanted to share that experience.  Haven't heard much feedback about people using Coinify to buy crypto via Ledger Live.

[Lucius]

And wouldn't you know, Coinify asked which state I live in (there was a pull-down menu of states) and then notified me that I'm ineligible to use their service.

 
I checked on their website and as far as I can see about 40+ USA states have the option to buy, while selling are only allowed in the EU zone. It seems that for some reason your state does not issue a license for crypto exchanges, or that it sets requirements that such companies cannot meet.

I don't know why this is, but I'm assuming it's the same reason why I can't use Binance anymore.  Wish I could figure out what prevents residents of my state from accessing these services.  I used to be able to buy bitcoin from Circle with no problem, and now it seems there's no way I can do it using exchanges.

For the exact reason, you should contact one of the competent authorities in your country, because I think it will be difficult to get such information directly from Binance or Coinify. For a start, you can read some information about the regulation of cryptocurrencies at this link -> Cryptocurrency Regulation USA.

[crwth]

I don't know why this is, but I'm assuming it's the same reason why I can't use Binance anymore.  Wish I could figure out what prevents residents of my state from accessing these services.  I used to be able to buy bitcoin from Circle with no problem, and now it seems there's no way I can do it using exchanges.

Isn't Binance US going to be the one you would use for trading? I think you would be eligible to trade there.

Anyways, I tried buying through Ledger Live, and you need to have your device already, and it went okay, for sure, since I live in one of the "available countries" list on their website. It's also the same link that Lucius included in his post. Personally, it's best to earn crypto and not just buy/convert fiat to BTC IMO because of the legitimacy issues and possible KYC involved.
 

[o_e_l_e_o]

Isn't Binance US going to be the one you would use for trading? I think you would be eligible to trade there.

Even Binance US has a list of 12 "Restricted States" that they do not accept customers from. You can see the list in their Terms of Use here:

“Restricted States” mean Alabama (AL), Connecticut (CT), Florida (FL), Georgia (GA), Hawaii (HI), Idaho (ID), Louisiana (LA), New York (NY), North Carolina (NC), Texas (TX), Vermont (VT) and Washington (WA). The list of Restricted States is subject to change at any time. In the event a state becomes a Restricted State, BAM will provide Users residing in that state with notice via email, a notification on BAM's site, or other means deemed necessary regarding their access to the Services.

Given that it includes Texas, Florida, and New York, which are the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th most populous states, if you add all those state populations up then it comes to over 115 million people. That's over a third of the US who are forbidden from using Binance US.

[crwth]

Even Binance US has a list of 12 "Restricted States" that they do not accept customers from. You can see the list in their Terms of Use here:

“Restricted States” mean Alabama (AL), Connecticut (CT), Florida (FL), Georgia (GA), Hawaii (HI), Idaho (ID), Louisiana (LA), New York (NY), North Carolina (NC), Texas (TX), Vermont (VT) and Washington (WA). The list of Restricted States is subject to change at any time. In the event a state becomes a Restricted State, BAM will provide Users residing in that state with notice via email, a notification on BAM's site, or other means deemed necessary regarding their access to the Services.

Given that it includes Texas, Florida, and New York, which are the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th most populous states, if you add all those state populations up then it comes to over 115 million people. That's over a third of the US who are forbidden from using Binance US.

Thanks for sharing. I wasn't aware of that, I just thought that since it's called Binance US, it's already open for people in the US. I should've thought of it being the same with the states allowed in Coinify. For sure it's all about the regulation on those states.

Saw this article from Sept. 2019 about the 13 states that weren't included.

Although it is upsetting that we cannot offer Binance.US in the states where I grew up and earned my education at this time, please rest assured that this is just the beginning, and it is our mission to bring access to those of you in these states many of us call home

It's a quote from the CEO of Binance US that they still plan for those states to have access. Maybe soon.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I should've thought of it being the same with the states allowed in Coinify.

Here's the list of permitted states for Coinify:

United States (Alabama, Alaska, American Samoa, Arkansas, Arizona, California, Colorado, Delaware, District of Columbia, Guam, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, North Dakota, Northern Mariana Islands, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico, Rhode Island, South, Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, U.S. Virgin Islands, Utah, Virginia, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming)

There are 12 states which aren't on that list, which are Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Louisiana, Nebraska, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington.

Of the list of 12 Binance restricted states and 12 Coinify restricted states, there is a crossover of 9 states. Alabama, Idaho, and Texas are only banned from Binance, and Nebraska, New Mexico, and Oregon are only banned from Coinify.

I don't use either of these services and I am also not exactly familiar with crypto laws in each of those 12 states, so I'm not entirely sure why some are permitted and some are not. Interestingly, if you look at other big exchanges such as Coinbase, they trade in all of the above states (with the exception of Hawaii), and have an entirely different set of "restricted states". Gemini operate in all states except Hawaii.

I wonder why there is such a large variance between companies which essentially provide the same service.

[HCP]

I wonder why there is such a large variance between companies which essentially provide the same service.

Most likely demand... or preceived demand... if you have 1 user from a state wanting to use your service, you're not going to jump through all the regulatory hoops to make that happen... if you have 100,000 users from a state wanting to use your service, then you probably would

And then, to a lesser extent, possibly also where the company is actually headquartered or incorporated and the various regulatory/legal ramifications of that.

If your state is on the "restricted" list of a given exchange, I'd suggest contacting that exchange and asking them why they don't offer services. If it is because of the lack of demand, perhaps you could publicise this in crypto forums and try and get a show of support from other users in your state to show the exchange that the demand is actually there. Who knows, you might do all the other users in your state a big favour and get added to the permitted states

Of course, if your particular state is run by luddites and/or troglodytes, then you're probably S.O.L. There is an election coming up... maybe start asking candidates what their thoughts on cryptocurrency are before you vote

[o_e_l_e_o]

Most likely demand... or preceived demand... if you have 1 user from a state wanting to use your service, you're not going to jump through all the regulatory hoops to make that happen... if you have 100,000 users from a state wanting to use your service, then you probably would

That's a good point, actually. I suppose if you take a simplified example of two exchanges such as Coinbase and Binance, then Binance would see the biggest returns for their money by focusing on getting themselves approved in states which are not currently served by Coinbase, since there is a larger potential market of "unexchanged" customers in those states, as opposed to getting approved in states which are already served by Coinbase and therefore having to fight for their already established customers.

I'd suggest contacting that exchange and asking them why they don't offer services.

A fair point, but I won't be contacting anyone since I don't use any centralized exchanges at all.

Of course, if your particular state is run by luddites and/or troglodytes, then you're probably S.O.L.

Aren't they all?


To get somewhat back on topic - let's say for some reason I decided I did want to pay these ridiculous fees and buy crypto via Ledger Live via Coinify while living in a state they do not support. Can I lie and choose an "approved" state for small trades, or do they push KYC on everyone regardless of amount?

[The Sceptical Chymist]

For the exact reason, you should contact one of the competent authorities in your country, because I think it will be difficult to get such information directly from Binance or Coinify. For a start, you can read some information about the regulation of cryptocurrencies at this link -> Cryptocurrency Regulation USA.

Thank you for that link, Lucius.  I'm going to bookmark that site for future perusal.  And yes, you're right, I probably could get the exact information I need by contacting one of those "competent authorities" you mentioned, but given that my state's government is an enormous bureaucracy I don't think I'm going to go that route.

Isn't Binance US going to be the one you would use for trading? I think you would be eligible to trade there.

Even Binance US has a list of 12 "Restricted States" that they do not accept customers from.

Yep, and I'm unfortunately in one of those states, though mine is not one of the biggies.

It's a quote from the CEO of Binance US that they still plan for those states to have access. Maybe soon.

Given the numbers Leo just showed, I could imagine how badly Binance wants to expand their services into those 12 states.  I do hope they keep trying and that they don't keep running into a brick wall when dealing with the regulatory bodies. 

I wonder why there is such a large variance between companies which essentially provide the same service.

Pardon my French, but it is fucking baffling, isn't it?

[crwth]

To get somewhat back on topic - let's say for some reason I decided I did want to pay these ridiculous fees and buy crypto via Ledger Live via Coinify while living in a state they do not support. Can I lie and choose an "approved" state for small trades, or do they push KYC on everyone regardless of amount?

This article shows you the step-by-step of buying cryptocurrency with Ledger, and it pushes KYC on everyone. And it states there.

So whilst you do also have to go through KYC procedures when buying with Ledger Live for the first time which is a bit trouble, the whole process only took around 5 minutes to complete

So whether or not you would lie, you wouldn't be able to pass the verification if your ID is not coinciding with the address that you input.

It's a quote from the CEO of Binance US that they still plan for those states to have access. Maybe soon.

Given the numbers Leo just showed, I could imagine how badly Binance wants to expand their services into those 12 states.  I do hope they keep trying and that they don't keep running into a brick wall when dealing with the regulatory bodies. 

That's why I'm curious why some other crypto companies have been able to operate within those states, and some have not. It's just bizarre. I do hope that you would be able to access Binance soon.