Couple was forcibly ask by IRS to sell their crypto to pay their liabilities

[gentlemand]

By natural law, any tax liability can only arise from an actual gain from an investment.

What many crypto 'traders' will have done is put whatever gain they made straight back in and many will have subsequently lost it. The moment you realise any gain is when it's taxable and you need to secure that there and then. A frenzied trader could have made tens or hundreds of taxable events every day. Each one counts.

If you don't keep on top of that then you can wind up with nothing and a tax bill that still runs in millions of dollars. I've seen a few cases of this now.

https://www.reddit.com/r/tax/comments/9tcnu8/did_i_ruin_my_life_by_trading_crypto/?sort=confidence

In this case at least they have the money to meet the debt. Many won't.

I'm not sure whether crypto to crypto trades were taxable that way in 2017, that has been clarified and they are now in the US, crypto to dollars and vice versa always were and I'll bet many ignored that too thinking it didn't count as it was nothing more than a figure on a website.

There may be capital losses you can play against it. Dunno.

[1714246585]

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[1714246585]

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[1714246585]

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[fiulpro]

In summary:

- Alexander and Laura Strashny filed income tax return due in 2017, but unable to pay

- they sent IRS letters proposing to pay the liability in iinstallments over a period of 6 years

-  IRS received the proposal recorded it and put in in pending status

- As of December 2018, the outstanding liability + interest exceeded $1 million

- IRS sent petition notice "Intent to Seize Your Assets" and Notice of Your Right to a Hearing.

- Petitioners timely requested a CDPhearing, expressinginterest in an installment agreement (IA) and attaching a copyof their previously submitted Forms 433-A and 9465.  They did notcheck the boxindicating thattheycould not pay the balance, and they did notdispute theirunderlyingliability for 2017.

- SO review the case and saw that they have a huge cryptocurrency investment

- SO eceived from petitioners’ repre-sentative a copy of their 2018 tax return, which reported wages exceeding $200,000, and investment statements showing cryptocurrency assets valued over$7 million.  During the conference the SO noted that petitioners were currently
- 4-[*4] withdrawing$19,000 per month from their cryptocurrency account, and she asked why they could not liquidate or borrow against those assets in order to discharge their tax liabilityin full.

- Lawyers for the petitioners argue that they are unable to draw on their cryptocurrency account to pay their liability.

- On June 25, 2019, the IRS issued a notice of determination sustaining the proposed levy, rejecting petitioners’ request for an IA, and stating that “[l]evyaction is permitted 30 daysafter the rejection.

https://www.ustaxcourt.gov/USTCInOP/OpinionViewer.aspx?ID=12258


There's no denying that the petitioners have money to pay to settled their tax liabilities. But they can't withdraw it in a timely manner, maybe they are waiting for the price to go up and make profit to at least lessen the damage. What are your thoughts on this?

Are you willing to sell your crypto to pay our debts or just go on settle it in months or years?

If it all exceeded 1 million dollars , it is a safe bet to say that they have been doing it since a long time , see income tax might now always be reasonable but at the same time If you keep doing your part every year there is nothing to be afraid of.

What the government did shouldn't have been that weird for people , since now every wallet and exchange does have a KYC requirement , the government already records every step , therefore the more they would have waited :
1. The more would have been the interest
2. The price is actually not that bad right now
3. Legal charges would have been more harsh
4. If they have Investment in crypto I do think it is safe to say they they would have had other investments too , so they are actually not loosing much .

They should have just paid it every year , I do think the decision was fair .

At least they are not in the jail , see income tax is only implemented for the people who can afford to pay it , but people try to avoid it when they most easily can be done with it , plus there is no assurance that Bitcoins is going to give good returns in the upcoming year , we all know that we cannot be sure of anything.

*We are all being tracked*

Lets leave it at that .

[amishmanish]

By natural law, any tax liability can only arise from an actual gain from an investment.

What many crypto 'traders' will have done is put whatever gain they made straight back in and many will have subsequently lost it. The moment you realise any gain is when it's taxable and you need to secure that there and then. A frenzied trader could have made tens or hundreds of taxable events every day. Each one counts.

If you don't keep on top of that then you can wind up with nothing and a tax bill that still runs in millions of dollars. I've seen a few cases of this now.

https://www.reddit.com/r/tax/comments/9tcnu8/did_i_ruin_my_life_by_trading_crypto/?sort=confidence

Oh my god!! Read that reddit thread. The poor guy never converted anything to fiat but incurred tax liability simply because of the "Portfolio value in USD" number against his account moving to 880K on coinbase!! How isn't that insane?? From what i understand, every single trade (crypto-to-crypto) or (crypto to USD) is a taxable event on these "exchanges". And with the "exchange" providing a full record of every single one of your transactions, the taxman seem to have hit the jackpot. They are milking people against gains that actually NEVER materialized.

Why isn't there more push-back against this? I guess plenty of people in the Late 2017 pump and dump would have incurred such taxes. I understand the basic concept that every single act of "buy and sell" is something for which you owe the govt tax. That is insane for people who started investing in late 2017, saw a short boom and then had their portfolios wiped out subsequently.

Thanks for your answers @gentlemand and @squatter

[thesmallgod]

For me, it is better to pay up their debt using part of the crypto they have. The couple know what they are doing and it makes me tend to believe they do not want to pay that debt because if they do, nothing stops them from using part of crypto. I have seen and read stories about people invading tax and don't want to pay and this is part of reason why some countries want to regulate crypto. If you enjoy social amenities and other benefit from the government, I do not see any reason why you shouldn't pay

[gentlemand]

They are milking people against gains that actually NEVER materialized.

But they did materialise. The trader made profit and that profit was available to realise. It's not the tax man's problem if he immediately threw it back in somewhere else. It's his responsibility to secure their share.

It's not crypto 'persecution', the same thing applies everywhere else too. If he were moving between currencies forex trading it may never be dollars but there still might be profits that are taxable in dollars.

[vapourminer]

*We are all being tracked*

Lets leave it at that .

yes. and even if blockchain analysis isnt that good now, it will be.

i mentioned upthread i always pull 20% more on sells so its already in fiat for taxes. i dont touch that 20% fiat in the bank, only cash it in when the man wants his tax.

also i  put on my tax returns the stuff i buy through payment processors and stores that take btc directly. as they are taxable events and need to be reported too.

now i probably could of got away with not reporting newegg or whatever purchases, but im sure glad i did. you do NOT want the IRS as your enemy.

[stompix]

Cryptocurrency is already under the scanner of government agencies. They have associated it with everything which is illegal.
If they need to sell their crypto assets then they should otherwise, the tax agency would suggest the government that cryptocurrency is a new illegal way for them to abet tax.

Really?
How the fuck would be crypto illegal in the US when even in this case alone they recognized the value of a crypto investment?
They are paying their taxes and the IRS has recognized that those cryptos they hold (whatever they have) are valuable in terms of $

What the hell is illegal?
Damn, why do people jump so fast to a conclusion that's always the evil gubbermint that is to blame?

They essentially used the IRS as a backer for their investments. Now the IRS wants their money. They'll get it too. Legally, the couple has no legs to stand on. The IRS can approve or deny payment plans at their discretion. If a taxpayer doesn't pay on time and the IRS doesn't approve a payment plan,

Yeah, surprisingly it's not the IRS that's doing any kind of abuse here it's the ones not paying their taxes.
You can argue taxes are not fair, you can argue that cryptos shouldn't be taxed but here we're talking about liability from 2017, which,

They did not check the box indicating that they could not pay the balance, and they did not dispute their underlying liability for 2017.

They are sitting on 7 millions of cryptos value they don't want to sell their 1 million debt but they wanted an installment plan for

On July 24, 2018, petitioners sent the IRS via certified mail a Form 9465, Installment Agreement Request, proposing to pay their 2017 tax liability in installments over a six-year period.

Not only that but they're were withdrawing money on a monthly bases

During the conference the SO noted that petitioners were currently withdrawing $19,000 per month from their cryptocurrency account, and she
asked why they could not liquidate or borrow against those assets in order to discharge their tax liability in full.

Let's assume you were the IRS, someone has 7 times the debt they've own you for 4 years at their disposal, what would you do?
Agree on 6-year plan in which the only guarantee you have to actually get paid is that is someone telling you those coins might increase in value, or ask them to liquidate now and pay their debts?

[davis196]

From what I read it's pretty clear to me that those people simply don't want to pay their taxes.
The IRS tells them "hey,you have cryptocurrencies worth millions of dollars,sell your crypto and pay your taxes without intallments!",but those people are just "nah,we can't sell our crypto,we wanna pay in a 6-year time frame".This is just plain stupid to me.I assume that the IRS will try to confiscate a large portion of their crytpocurrency investments.
Trying to hide your wealth from taxes by investing in cryptocurrencies isn't that easy.

[Lorence.xD]

From what I read it's pretty clear to me that those people simply don't want to pay their taxes.
The IRS tells them "hey,you have cryptocurrencies worth millions of dollars,sell your crypto and pay your taxes without intallments!",but those people are just "nah,we can't sell our crypto,we wanna pay in a 6-year time frame".This is just plain stupid to me.I assume that the IRS will try to confiscate a large portion of their crytpocurrency investments.
Trying to hide your wealth from taxes by investing in cryptocurrencies isn't that easy.

The problem that they are facing could have been avoidable if they paid their taxes properly in the first place, the problem with IRS and other agencies that are handling taxes is that they can drain someone of their entire funds just by dragging the process for too long, that is how bureaucracy works, the paperworks are going to kill you when in the end you could have paid it. Authority is very hard on people  avoiding taxes. Now they have to spend their crypto investments to pay for their mistakes which is kind of a bummer.

[glowing10]

I would have payed the tax and settle the dues and closed the case considering I am liable for the above said amount . But surely why would they not be paying it when they have money and why would they want to make it the big news and now many things would be find out by IRS and also they be under suspicion as haveing money and not paying it this no government would ever want it . Unless some one has lost the money or something and does not have really to pay that becomes different story .

[rodskee]

From what I read it's pretty clear to me that those people simply don't want to pay their taxes.
The IRS tells them "hey,you have cryptocurrencies worth millions of dollars,sell your crypto and pay your taxes without intallments!",but those people are just "nah,we can't sell our crypto,we wanna pay in a 6-year time frame".This is just plain stupid to me.I assume that the IRS will try to confiscate a large portion of their crytpocurrency investments.
Trying to hide your wealth from taxes by investing in cryptocurrencies isn't that easy.

Plain and straight, if they do really concerned about paying their taxes no one can stop them selling their assets/crypto
but this couple are really trying to convinced IRS
to have 6-year time frame hoping that the value of their crypto is really high, from that it will favor them in paying the
debt as it can possibly the earnings from the assets that they've got.


IRS though can easily track their resources and since that it was their debt the couple needs to comply and use their
crypto assets and pay the said amount.

[teosanru]

In summary:

- Alexander and Laura Strashny filed income tax return due in 2017, but unable to pay

- they sent IRS letters proposing to pay the liability in iinstallments over a period of 6 years

-  IRS received the proposal recorded it and put in in pending status

- As of December 2018, the outstanding liability + interest exceeded $1 million

- IRS sent petition notice "Intent to Seize Your Assets" and Notice of Your Right to a Hearing.

- Petitioners timely requested a CDPhearing, expressinginterest in an installment agreement (IA) and attaching a copyof their previously submitted Forms 433-A and 9465.  They did notcheck the boxindicating thattheycould not pay the balance, and they did notdispute theirunderlyingliability for 2017.

- SO review the case and saw that they have a huge cryptocurrency investment

- SO eceived from petitioners’ repre-sentative a copy of their 2018 tax return, which reported wages exceeding $200,000, and investment statements showing cryptocurrency assets valued over$7 million.  During the conference the SO noted that petitioners were currently
- 4-[*4] withdrawing$19,000 per month from their cryptocurrency account, and she asked why they could not liquidate or borrow against those assets in order to discharge their tax liabilityin full.

- Lawyers for the petitioners argue that they are unable to draw on their cryptocurrency account to pay their liability.

- On June 25, 2019, the IRS issued a notice of determination sustaining the proposed levy, rejecting petitioners’ request for an IA, and stating that “[l]evyaction is permitted 30 daysafter the rejection.

https://www.ustaxcourt.gov/USTCInOP/OpinionViewer.aspx?ID=12258


There's no denying that the petitioners have money to pay to settled their tax liabilities. But they can't withdraw it in a timely manner, maybe they are waiting for the price to go up and make profit to at least lessen the damage. What are your thoughts on this?

Are you willing to sell your crypto to pay our debts or just go on settle it in months or years?

Interestingly USA has been pretty developed with cryptocurrency too now. They have defined cryptocurrency as financial asset therefore it's their right to seize them for recovery of their taxes. Moreover even if it wasn't a financial asset they can seize any asset they want.

There's no denying that the petitioners have money to pay to settled their tax liabilities. But they can't withdraw it in a timely manner, maybe they are waiting for the price to go up and make profit to at least lessen the damage. What are your thoughts on this?

Are you willing to sell your crypto to pay our debts or just go on settle it in months or years?

It seems pretty clear to me that this has little to do with cryptocurrency. They simply are doing whatever they can to avoid paying $1 million dollars to the government. Wouldn't you? They won't win, but at least they tried.

True indeed it makes no sense to speculate on price going up to pay you taxes in future. You know there are huge interests penalty and prosecutions involved. They might be thinking of declaring some bankruptcy or something in real world then after getting the immunity would withdraw their crypto holdings to get a new life. You just can't say this for every debt you have to calculate the additional costs involved in deferment of debt when you decide to do so.

[amishmanish]

They are milking people against gains that actually NEVER materialized.

But they did materialise. The trader made profit and that profit was available to realise. It's not the tax man's problem if he immediately threw it back in somewhere else. It's his responsibility to secure their share.

It's not crypto 'persecution', the same thing applies everywhere else too. If he were moving between currencies forex trading it may never be dollars but there still might be profits that are taxable in dollars.

I understand what you are saying. A lot of people just juggled alt-coins on these websites hearing about the insane stories of latest "collaborations" and "Proof of X" which would revolutionize crypto. A lot of people saw those 10X gains. Many were financially too naive to realize these things. If i consider myself in that situation, I would never consider the stupid bunch of 100 NXT, 200 OMG, 500 GNT and such obscure tokens sitting on my bittrex account as worth anything today. At that time they were worth a few 1000 USD. Its scary to think that these can be taxed retrospectively on being considered as returns (which eventually evaporated, of course). I no longer use that Bittrex account but it has some fractional worth of Alt-coins from the early days. They have blocked the account asking for KYC. The stupid "three shots, one front, left, right, holding a placard, lol its insane). Its also a sign that the exchanges have become institutions in themselves with full compliance. This escalated quickly.

The safest way is to follow what vapourminer said about keeping away some 20% realized profits for taxes. Sounds sensible enough. Anybody indulging in trading, even if they are financially unware students should do this.

[coolcoinz]

I would have payed the tax and settle the dues and closed the case considering I am liable for the above said amount . But surely why would they not be paying it when they have money and why would they want to make it the big news and now many things would be find out by IRS and also they be under suspicion as haveing money and not paying it this no government would ever want it . Unless some one has lost the money or something and does not have really to pay that becomes different story .

Most of us would.
I don't llike taxes and I oppose them as much as I can, but if I had a reported surplus of a few million dollars, I'd pay. There's no other way. It's like they already got a speeding ticket, signed it and a year later decided they don't want to pay it. Pretty dumb if you ask me.

[Kakmakr]

Your argument will not stand up in court if you take this to court... It is the same as saying... "Listen IRS, I will pay my debt when the stock price of my Microsoft shares reach X amount." The taxman takes whatever they get, when they want to...they do not wait for you to say when you are ready.

Will I sell my Crypto currencies to pay them?.... Yes I will, because I cannot do anything with that Crypto when my ass is in jail. Pay the taxes and be done with it and then enjoy what is left after the taxes was deducted. 

[Saisher]

There's no denying that the petitioners have money to pay to settled their tax liabilities. But they can't withdraw it in a timely manner, maybe they are waiting for the price to go up and make profit to at least lessen the damage. What are your thoughts on this?

Are you willing to sell your crypto to pay our debts or just go on settle it in months or years?

This is a hard decision to sell your Crypto just after the halving, I mean you could be losing a lot from potential profit coming from those coins you are hodling if they will grant you to settle it in months or years just a specific date in the future maybe two years  it will be preferable, you are not only going to pay all your obligations but you can make a profit from the Crypto you are holding now.

[buwaytress]

yes. and even if blockchain analysis isnt that good now, it will be.

i mentioned upthread i always pull 20% more on sells so its already in fiat for taxes. i dont touch that 20% fiat in the bank, only cash it in when the man wants his tax.

Good call. I don't have to worry about this now but I wonder if at some point I will have to, I'm never certain of my next tax jurisdiction but I think anyone who trades, and who isn't 100% certain or has not got the all clear from the tax man should always have a bit of padding in that bank account.

Strange case because they went to court standing on no legs. What kind of lawyer do they have haha.

[gentlemand]

What kind of lawyer do they have haha.

One who told them what they wanted to hear for the amount of money he wanted to hear.

Maybe he's retiring in a few weeks. That's the only possible explanation for the sheer outlandishness.

[abel1337]

There's no denying that the petitioners have money to pay to settled their tax liabilities. But they can't withdraw it in a timely manner, maybe they are waiting for the price to go up and make profit to at least lessen the damage. What are your thoughts on this?

Are you willing to sell your crypto to pay our debts or just go on settle it in months or years?

This is a hard decision to sell your Crypto just after the halving, I mean you could be losing a lot from potential profit coming from those coins you are hodling if they will grant you to settle it in months or years just a specific date in the future maybe two years  it will be preferable, you are not only going to pay all your obligations but you can make a profit from the Crypto you are holding now.

Right, It would be really disappointing when the crypto they sold goes high after months of selling it. There's no way you can tell if the crypto they are holding will grow after months so for me it's a great risk knowing that you need to pay your liabilities. But if they chose to risk the crypto assets they have now to make it grow and being successful on that plan can make it worth the risk, Earning some profits and paying the liabilities at the same time is a good plan but the execution is way complicated because there is pressure on you that you can't lose to the risk you entered.

[winterlemon912]

In summary:

- Alexander and Laura Strashny filed income tax return due in 2017, but unable to pay

- they sent IRS letters proposing to pay the liability in iinstallments over a period of 6 years

-  IRS received the proposal recorded it and put in in pending status

- As of December 2018, the outstanding liability + interest exceeded $1 million

- IRS sent petition notice "Intent to Seize Your Assets" and Notice of Your Right to a Hearing.

- Petitioners timely requested a CDPhearing, expressinginterest in an installment agreement (IA) and attaching a copyof their previously submitted Forms 433-A and 9465.  They did notcheck the boxindicating thattheycould not pay the balance, and they did notdispute theirunderlyingliability for 2017.

- SO review the case and saw that they have a huge cryptocurrency investment

- SO eceived from petitioners’ repre-sentative a copy of their 2018 tax return, which reported wages exceeding $200,000, and investment statements showing cryptocurrency assets valued over$7 million.  During the conference the SO noted that petitioners were currently
- 4-[*4] withdrawing$19,000 per month from their cryptocurrency account, and she asked why they could not liquidate or borrow against those assets in order to discharge their tax liabilityin full.

- Lawyers for the petitioners argue that they are unable to draw on their cryptocurrency account to pay their liability.

- On June 25, 2019, the IRS issued a notice of determination sustaining the proposed levy, rejecting petitioners’ request for an IA, and stating that “[l]evyaction is permitted 30 daysafter the rejection.

https://www.ustaxcourt.gov/USTCInOP/OpinionViewer.aspx?ID=12258


There's no denying that the petitioners have money to pay to settled their tax liabilities. But they can't withdraw it in a timely manner, maybe they are waiting for the price to go up and make profit to at least lessen the damage. What are your thoughts on this?

Are you willing to sell your crypto to pay our debts or just go on settle it in months or years?

There are still countries that we cannot use crypto currency because they haven't yet legalize it so we cannot disobey their rules or else we are going to jail. If your country is not yet accepted crypto currency then wait for it to get legalize or migrate to another country where crypto currency is legal. Bitcoin is the crypto currency that has the biggest number of countries where it is legal since it is the first crypto currency that is launched way back 2009. I hope that other crypto currencies can also get legalize in different part of the world so that we can use crypto currency without worrying to get jailed.
Source: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/041515/countries-where-bitcoin-legal-illegal.asp