Frustration with Investors- Why is it so hard to take Bitcoin mainstream?

[fornit]

As for my statement being "BS" as in "Bullshit" as in a "lie" - check yourself - because at least 80% is verifiably cold hard TRUTH. The faster you face that, the faster the problems will get solved. I've been through all these things first hand. We still get up every morning and conduct business.

yeah, a currency like bitcoin draws the attention of scammers and hackers. notice how not a single point on your very long list is an example of a merchant suffering from an inadequacy of bitcoin?

Heck! Our company covered the massive Dwolla losses *ourselves*. That was YOUR money they took from us!

no, that was your money they took from you. no one on your plattform traded bitcoins for dwolla dollars, paxum dollars or okpay dollars, nor did they trade dollars from any specific person. they trade for US dollars and the whole point of people depositing dollars on your plattform BEFORE trading instead of just promising to pay them later is to make sure no one trading bitcoin has to worry about not getting paid. so when you credit virtual dollars to anyones account you in turn have to be sure you really received the real dollars first.
you were the victim here. not the villain but also not the hero that saved the day.

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[Yankee (BitInstant)]

Heck! Our company covered the massive Dwolla losses *ourselves*. That was YOUR money they took from us!

no, that was your money they took from you. no one on your plattform traded bitcoins for dwolla dollars, paxum dollars or okpay dollars, nor did they trade dollars from any specific person. they trade for US dollars and the whole point of people depositing dollars on your plattform BEFORE trading instead of just promising to pay them later is to make sure no one trading bitcoin has to worry about not getting paid. so when you credit virtual dollars to anyones account you in turn have to be sure you really received the real dollars first.
you were the victim here. not the villain but also not the hero that saved the day.

Actually, your quite mistaken.

These are funds that Dwolla claimed had cleared to tradehill, at that point customer reversed the charges and Dwolla didnt alert Tradehill to it.
Not only did TradeHill eat the losses, totalling over 100k , but it also forced Dwolla to change their TOS and abandon their "no chargeback" mantra.

Thank you TradeHill!

[cypherdoc]

i've come to the conclusion that for buyers to adopt Bitcoin, we need to have more brick and mortar merchant sellers.

this way buyers can get their hands on the merchandise before they send their Bitcoins.  the flip side of this is that brick and mortar merchants will be the most likely to succeed with Bitcoin.

[freequant]

How much investment are you looking for? Have you thought of using the GLBSE or asking for investment from within the community?

We've thought about using GLBSE, but honestly not familiar with how it works. I prefer working with investors and angels because they bring things like experience to the table rather then just money.

I have no idea what your business is, but your resistance turns me on.
You should consider making a round of GLBSE fund raising just for a try.
I'll make sure to grap some shares and help spreading the word.

[Yankee (BitInstant)]

How much investment are you looking for? Have you thought of using the GLBSE or asking for investment from within the community?

We've thought about using GLBSE, but honestly not familiar with how it works. I prefer working with investors and angels because they bring things like experience to the table rather then just money.

I have no idea what your business is, but your resistance turns me on.
You should consider making a round of GLBSE fund raising just for a try.
I'll make sure to grap some shares and help spreading the word.

Thanks!

In brief, how does the GLBSE work? I guess Lambert is the best person to ask this (Wish this forum had a tagging people option)

How are companies valued, dividends paid out? How do you know if Im telling the truth and not just scamming my books?

-Charlie

[wareen]

Maybe it's also in part because of the current economic uncertainty?

[cypherdoc]

I am not a fan of GLBSE.  its the Wild West and i have lost money on 2 companies there:  SIN and UBX.

everything is slanted in favor of the companies so in that sense you'd have a huge advantage.  downside is anyone with any real money won't invest via GLBSE b/c everything is so loose and Nefario takes NO responsibility for the companies he lets in the doors; which is basically anybody.

you're better off relying on your traditional investors/contacts whom you already have a relationship.

[kgo]

I feel your frustration and rejection always sucks, but...

I think it's still much more likely that (a) Bitcoin prices trickle down to nothing and interest will disappear, or (b) It's maintain this niche level than (c) bitcoins will be worth more than one hundred (or one thousand) dollars.  (And I say this as a big supporter of the system.)

So you start with a system that's more likely to fail than not, and add on top of that a business, which is more likely to fail than not.  Most business do fail.

I can't think of a higher risk investment!  Would you tell your 60 year old dad to cash out his 401K and invest in bitcoins?  Would you tell your brother-in-law to put the kids' college funds in your business?  I wouldn't.  And in fact I told some family members to invest, but only with disposable income and play money.

Also given the volatility of bitcoins, I don't see how it's even conceivable to put together something like a 10 year projection.

Ultimately, that does leave you with what you call the riskier investors.  The people who have some gambling/play money.  Angel investors.  They can afford to lose it all, but are willing to take a chance that they might get a 100x or 1000x return on their investment.

Once you realize you're pitching to that crowd, I think it's important to focus on the excitement and the romance of bitcoins, rather than the bottom line.  The mysterious Satoishi Nakamoto.  That French guy who runs a forex in Japan.  That Irishman who runs a stock exchange out of China.  The Indian guy who started a mining company, failed, but paid back all his shareholders out-of-pocket.

This is the wild west.  It's a gold rush.  And here's your opportunity to get in on the ground floor.

Even the failures can be told as stories full of intrigue and deception.  The mysterious Tom Williams pulling off the con of the century!

To sum up, I don't think you can appeal to people's rational nature with numbers and figures, because the numbers don't look good.  But when you find an investor with some play money, you need to appeal to the excitement, the potential, the possibilities.

[tetra4c]

Once you realize you're pitching to that crowd, I think it's important to focus on the excitement and the romance of bitcoins, rather than the bottom line.  The mysterious Satoishi Nakamoto.  That French guy who runs a forex in Japan.  That Irishman who runs a stock exchange out of China.  The Indian guy who started a mining company, failed, but paid back all his shareholders out-of-pocket.

This is the wild west.  It's a gold rush.  And here's your opportunity to get in on the ground floor.

Even the failures can be told as stories full of intrigue and deception.  The mysterious Tom Williams pulling off the con of the century!

Here it is - the saga. I don't think I missed a point!

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/11/mf_bitcoin/4/

It's certainly the wild west. Who's the Sheriff?

[bitcon]

Give them a Bitcoin on the spot and have them make a transaction within 10 minutes.  Show them that it can be done that quickly and without having to get up.

yes, as soon as they wait three hours to download the blockchain.

[chickenado]

Yankee,

Here's what you’ll have to explain to investors:

1). Bitcoin7 - scam
2). MyBitcoin - likely a scam
3). Bruce Wagner – Just the allegations are disturbing
4). Mt. Gox – This will need bullet points.
       a). Hacked
       b). Credited millions to over 100 accounts during DB transfer. In one hour 400k in BTC was bought - hrm
       c). Sent money to black hole.
       d). 60k user names leaked
       i). Role backs
  5). FNIB?
  6). Runnin my BTC exchange on lunch break between History and Chemistry.  
  7). Wallet Trojans
  . Mt.Gox and Tradehill phishing scams.
  9). Blackmail anyone?
  10). Spam
  11). DWOLLA quietly charging back funds …. not telling anyone.
  12). ExchB didn’t steal anyone’s money … fffeeewww!
  13). Market manipulation.
  14). Silk Road
  15). DDOS attacks
  16). Chuck Schumer – “Bitcoin is money laundering”
  17). Russian Mob
  18). Russian Mob Payment Providers
  20). Pattaya – “Three pronged attack”
  21). Bitomat PLN
  22). Tom Williams – “Smoking Gun”
  23). “Other” Coin – trucoin, solidcoin, mooncoin, ixcoin, namecoin – Which coin?
  24). CosbyCoin – That was just funny though!
  25). Bank Freezes
  26). "Tell me about the creator. Oh, Satoshi!"
  27). 51% attacks

That’s allot to explain in one meeting. Does someone want to make a PPT?

Tell them that through all this, bitcoin usage continues to grow.

We've been through ALLOT. The legit people in this community have one thing in common: perseverance!

This could be an awesome movie one day.

And that is only the stuff that happened after Jun 2011

Before that there was:

1) Network barely alive all through 2009
2) Wikipedia article deleted
3) People losing all their bitcoins because they didn't back up wallet after every send.
4) Serious security holes discovered in client v0.3
5) "nenolod" attemps DOS attack
6) Flash crash from 0.06 to 0.03 USD, market manipulation?
7) Faucet abuse
GPU miner monopolies
9) GPU miner bounty scams
10) Paypal chargeback scams
11) Mtgox frozen for 3 weeks in Oct 2010 because of Paypal scammers. Funds forcibly converted to LR.
12) Credit card scammers
13) Paypal boycotts Bitcoin
14) Satoshi disappears suddenly without even as much as a goodbye.
15) Bitcoin 2 Credit Card shut down.
16) btcex scandal
...

I call it healthy evolutionary pressure

[BitcoinBug]

And still very much alive and kickin' 

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Pay it no mind, teflone. The following is his first post using that user name.

Wow - Ya got me - Unmasked

I know people know this is my username. Not like I couldn't use one of the unidentified ones I have. Or create a new one in two secs. It's also my IRC name so I'm obviously not tring to hide anything. I'd prefer to be able to speak my thoughts outside of TradeHill, but everytime I post something Sherlock Holmes comes around and makes 2+2.

As for my statement being "BS" as in "Bullshit" as in a "lie" - check yourself - because at least 80% is verifiably cold hard TRUTH. The faster you face that, the faster the problems will get solved. I've been through all these things first hand. We still get up every morning and conduct business.

Heck! Our company covered the massive Dwolla losses *ourselves*. That was YOUR money they took from us!

Yankee said it himself - investor's ask these questions! You'd better be ready to answer.

Having gotten angel investment, we answered them!

Truly,

This is odd! I'm not sure why the first part of your post that's directed towards me comes across so terse. My post was meant as a complement and, moreover, shows that you're a co-founder of Tradehill. Therefore, your post, of which I'd referenced, should probably not be considered, should I say, troll-like.

That said,  I didn't have a single problem with you, tetra4c--until now.

If I owned a restaurant, I wouldn't want one of my employees, let alone one of my co-partners, treating prospective customers tersely during their off hours while sitting inside a neighboring restaurant. That would reflect poorly on our new establishment, wouldn't you say so, co-partner?

I really like Tradehill, but now that I'm somewhat taken aback by your posts, unfortunately, I now have severe reservations.

Clearly I, and everybody reading this, doesn't need to don a Sherlock Holmes cap and cape while puffing away on a pipe, to see that your terseness is/was uncalled for.

To restate, I had nothing personal against you, tetra4c, prior to your post of which I quoted above--until now. YOUR ACTION(S) DOES NOT PASS THE SMELL TEST, in regards to Tradehill.

I feel that no less than an apology is in order to me but, moreover, this community for the way your actions now reflects upon Tradehill.

Feeling Tersed,

Bruno

[cbeast]

Feeling Tersed

I do not think it means what you think it means. It's inconceivable. 

[notme]

A little sensitive are we Phinnaeus?  I didn't really understand you comment either, so I can see why tetra4c misinterpreted it.  How exactly were you complimenting him?

[onesalt]

I would guess its becuase bitcoins have no inherient value and therefore the value of them swings wildly, which wipes out any profit that companies could potentially make by using them.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Feeling Tersed

I do not think it means what you think it means. It's inconceivable. 

I'm aware that "Feeling Tersed" is improper grammar. It was penned tongue-in-cheek because I used the word terse and its derivatives(?) several times in the post. But now that you mentioned it, and as I penned this reply, I am mistaken. For as it stands, even if incorrect, it's like I'm stating that here is my tersed reply to your terseness, which is not the case. I didn't want to come across as terse myself--just state how I feel/felt. The rest of the post I'm stating behind at this penning.

A little sensitive are we Phinnaeus?  I didn't really understand you comment either, so I can see why tetra4c misinterpreted it.  How exactly were you complimenting him?

I just reread my original post that tetra4c committed on. OOPS!!! As I read it now, you seem correct. I blame that post on the Bossa Nova German beer being tired (that's the ticket) when I wrote it. That said, I can now see how tetra4c can easily misinterpret it, although I still feel that his post came across--can I say?--terse, to me.

Sorry if I came across sensitive, but at the time, it hit my sensitive nerve. I would like to offer up an olive branch to tetra4c, and if he accepts it, I would also like to pledge 1 BTC by proxy to the Bitcoin100 in his name, if he states to me that he wouldn't mind if I do such. No apology on his part is needed.

Note to self: Keep your fuckin' mouth pen shut, otherwise it could become expensive.

Bruno

[tetra4c]

And that is only the stuff that happened after Jun 2011

Before that there was:

1) Network barely alive all through 2009
2) Wikipedia article deleted
3) People losing all their bitcoins because they didn't back up wallet after every send.
4) Serious security holes discovered in client v0.3
5) "nenolod" attemps DOS attack
6) Flash crash from 0.06 to 0.03 USD, market manipulation?
7) Faucet abuse
GPU miner monopolies
9) GPU miner bounty scams
10) Paypal chargeback scams
11) Mtgox frozen for 3 weeks in Oct 2010 because of Paypal scammers. Funds forcibly converted to LR.
12) Credit card scammers
13) Paypal boycotts Bitcoin
14) Satoshi disappears suddenly without even as much as a goodbye.
15) Bitcoin 2 Credit Card shut down.
16) btcex scandal
...

I call it healthy evolutionary pressure

+1

Only the strong and most adaptive survive!

[tetra4c]

I'm aware that "Feeling Tersed" is improper grammar. It was penned tongue-in-cheek because I used the word terse and its derivatives(?) several times in the post. But now that you mentioned it, and as I penned this reply, I am mistaken. For as it stands, even if incorrect, it's like I'm stating that here is my tersed reply to your terseness, which is not the case. I didn't want to come across as terse myself--just state how I feel/felt. The rest of the post I'm stating behind at this penning.

A little sensitive are we Phinnaeus?  I didn't really understand you comment either, so I can see why tetra4c misinterpreted it.  How exactly were you complimenting him?

I just reread my original post that tetra4c committed on. OOPS!!! As I read it now, you seem correct. I blame that post on the Bossa Nova German beer being tired (that's the ticket) when I wrote it. That said, I can now see how tetra4c can easily misinterpret it, although I still feel that his post came across--can I say?--terse, to me.

Sorry if I came across sensitive, but at the time, it hit my sensitive nerve. I would like to offer up an olive branch to tetra4c, and if he accepts it, I would also like to pledge 1 BTC by proxy to the Bitcoin100 in his name, if he states to me that he wouldn't mind if I do such. No apology on his part is needed.

Note to self: Keep your fuckin' mouth pen shut, otherwise it could become expensive.

Bruno

Hi Bruno,

It's aaaaalllll good - no problems!

Yes, my remark was not-so-nice but I think you see how I perceived your remark. Admittedly, I’m *horrible* at PR stuff for TH and that's why I typically stay away from it. I try to satisfy everyone but it's almost impossible. When I try too, it often comes off as "cotton-balling" as one person described it. It’s something I’m improving.

I'd like to participate from a more neutral stand point in the forums and hence I created this account. I'm not concerned if people know it's me but I'd prefer that every time I post *the regulars* don't point and say, "Hey, it's Adam from TH". I know to some extent that’ll be impossible because of the role we play – but, so be it! Plus, our ethics ARE important. I think most people who know us see that we are straight business people.

Mind you, for TH related items I still log in as Adam S (TradeHill).

So, that’s it! Slam down a ‘bier’ for me – just don’t go getting crazy on the forums drunk!  

You also have my apologies for the not-so-nice remarks in the post!

Regards,
Adam Stradling  

[HorseRider]

Because every potential user knows that you and your pal investors are going to sell into them and take the price down at any time. So they're just afraid.

And they're jealous of you. Maybe it's not right, but they ARE jealous of you.