Slots 103: More In-Depth about Return To Player (RTP) (With Poll)

[mu_enrico]

Oh, the RTP debate, it never goes old! Perhaps everyone already knows about RTP, but did you know that high RTP is not always good and can change over time? Let's dig it!

First and foremost:

RTP and Volatility

* RTP: it is like a fee for slots operator, in the long run, let's say for $1 bet, the operator will earn $0.05 and $0.95 will be put in the pot. Rule of thumb: search for slots that have more than 95% RTP.
* Volatility: it is like a risk for slots game. In low volatility slots, action will occur more often, but it pays lower than high volatility slots.

Theoretical RTP for extremely high volatility slots

Let's see how slots that can give 100,000x can get you busted most of the time, even with the 100% Theoretical RTP. Let's say the dev programmed the game to provide 0x (zero) payouts in 99,999/100,000 spins and 100,000x payout in 1/100,000 spins. In theory, they can label their slot game to have 100% Theoretical RTP. In reality, players will get busted with a probability of 99.999%. It might be okay if they really pay if some "holy" dude gets the 100,000x, but we have read about this slot malfunction and whatever else that deny their obligation to pay.

Therefore, if you see high volatility slots that have high RTP, you should ask:
- How big is the max win? 1,000x, 10,000x, or 100,000x?
- What's the volatility and the hit frequency?
- Even if I (somehow) win big, what's the probability for me getting paid 100%? Will my KYC be denied?

not all slots with high RTP are necessarily very friendly on your bankroll. In general, games with higher are RTP are always a better choice than the ones with a lower percentage, but if your game of choice is very volatile, you can go through many thousands spins before coming anywhere close to true RTP.

Source


Theoretical RTP label CAN change

Okay, so you like Slot A with a 97% RTP at the time of release and frequently play it for years. On some cloudy days, you decide to click the help and check the RTP. You then realized that the devs revised it last year to 96.5% RTP. Feel cheated? Too bad! After millions of spins, the provider should have enough data to determine its actual RTP. From what I see, this situation is more common with provably fair slots (probably because small distro slots aren't as heavily tested as big names, citation needed).

Therefore, old games with high RTP might sound more appealing than you think since new games with high RTP are not battle-tested yet.


Live RTP WILL change

Some casinos provide live RTPs so users can get informed about which is currently hot (paid more) and cold (paid less). To me, it's just a superstition, so users don't have to feel discouraged when they see Slot A live RTP rises to 200% and conversely rushes to play when live RTP down to 20%.

Live RTP will fluctuate based on the volatility (variance) and how many spins performed. Just ignore this since the data from one casino cannot represent data from all casinos (population). Perhaps at Casino A, the live RTP for Slot A is 150%. It doesn't mean that the next player will get rekt because maybe, on average, the live RTP (population) is 80%, so there is plenty room to bounce back (or more wins).

Theoretical RTP and Paylines

How about RTP in games that allow users to customize the paylines where they can bet on 1 of 10 pay lines up to 10 of 10 (max) paylines? Well, usually more paylines equal to more RTP, hence the theoretical RTP label is for max paylines. So, better bet on max lines even if it's more expensive if you don't use it as a strategy (to do progressive betting). If you don't trust me, kindly dwell into various slots' information sections, and sometimes you will read "The RTP only applicable for max lines" sort of thing.

RTP Variants: Same Game, Different RTPs

Always check for RTP! That should be the mantra for every slots player who doesn't want to get "soft-scammed" since the exact same game can use different RTP settings.

The provider who are known to have different RTP settings, as follows:
- Play'n Go: someone even reported to have only 84% RTP;
- Pragmatic Play: there are three RTP choices from 94% to 96%;
- Red Tiger: multiple RTPs down to 92%; source
- Nolimit City: usually the DX version pays -2% from the standard version (from my observation only, citation needed).

Do you have another view/opinion/fact about RTP? Feel free to share your knowledge here.


Disclaimer: gambling is for adults who understand the risks involved with this game. Plus, OP wouldn't take responsibility whatsoever if you then become slots addict and lose lots of money after reading this thread.
More information visit: https://wiki.casino/slot-machine/

[swogerino]

I agree with most topics but what I find it really as a hot point is the last of this thread which is the live Rtp.I have seen at least in Play n Go slot provider that when the live Rtp is just above 100% every time I have played I have had some sort of a good session.The Rtp here can go up to 174% I have seen.I am talking about the 24h Rtp and not weekly or monthly ones.

[Tytanowy Janusz]

not all slots with high RTP are necessarily very friendly on your bankroll. In general, games with higher are RTP are always a better choice than the ones with a lower percentage, but if your game of choice is very volatile, you can go through many thousands spins before coming anywhere close to true RTP.

Source

I believe that the goal in gambling is to stay the f out of true RTP True RTP means a loss for a gambler. The closer to true RTP you want your output to be the more certain it is that you will exit casino with loss or 0.
Therefore, if i'm gambling i choose high volatile games with as big RTP as possible. That's the only way to win big. To feel emotions.
I do not pay any attention to the live RTP. It does not matter for me if someone who played before me win o loss.

[2double0]

Why do they show a 24H RTP and RTP now? Which one should be followed? I mostly see 24H RTP to be over 100% in certain games where current RTP for that games is less than that level, why is that difference there? And if less than 100% RTP, is that game not profitable if played then?

[Tytanowy Janusz]

Why do they show a 24H RTP and RTP now? Which one should be followed? I mostly see 24H RTP to be over 100% in certain games where current RTP for that games is less than that level, why is that difference there?

24H RTP shows performance of players during last 24h. It shows nothing else than how lucky someone else was before in last 24h. This number is randomly oscillating around real RTP and has nothing to do with your expected proft/loss. RTP now or live RTP shows performance of players during shorter period (like 1h, 30 min. 4h depending on website). Its even more random.

And if less than 100% RTP, is that game not profitable if played then?

None of casino games are profitable for gambler. They are made to be profitable for casino. You can profit only when you are lucky.

If you want to know what are your actual chances of winning and how fair slot is set check real RTP not temporary RTP.

[Timelord2067]

I've got to admit I hadn't really given this very much thought, but if I can put it into context of Roulette, then the Zero/Double Zero is the House edge for that particular game which is a 1/37 or 2in38 return to the house which is ~ 3% to about ~ 5% so of your answers, I'd go with ~ 97%

[mu_enrico]

I agree with most topics but what I find it really as a hot point is the last of this thread which is the live Rtp.I have seen at least in Play n Go slot provider that when the live Rtp is just above 100% every time I have played I have had some sort of a good session.The Rtp here can go up to 174% I have seen.I am talking about the 24h Rtp and not weekly or monthly ones.

Yea, I often won Book of Dead and Legacy of Dead when its live RTP was above 100% just like you said, but perhaps it's just a fallacy.

If you want to know what are your actual chances of winning and how fair slot is set check real RTP not temporary RTP.

More common term usage is "live" and "theoretical" mate. If the dev dares to label its RTP with "true," probably they simulate the spin billions of times.

[ralle14]

After sportsbet added a reward system in their site i've started playing slots once again and usually the games have a 96%-97% RTP but i've had better experience with slot games that have RTPs near 97% so i'd say that's the acceptable number.

Yea, I often won Book of Dead and Legacy of Dead when its live RTP was above 100% just like you said, but perhaps it's just a fallacy.

Maybe we're just that lucky to catch some of the remaining wins  . I also won a bunch of times in a random slot game when the live RTP was sitting at 105%.

[mu_enrico]

99% - 1 (14.3%)
98% - 0 (0%)
97% - 3 (42.9%)
96% - 1 (14.3%)
95% - 0 (0%)
I don't care - 2 (28.6%)

It seems users like 97% RTP or more.


Oh, I forgot to mention about the payline RTP.

Theoretical RTP and Paylines

How about RTP in games that allow users to customize the paylines where they can bet on 1 of 10 pay lines up to 10 of 10 (max) paylines? Well, usually more paylines equal to more RTP, hence the theoretical RTP label is for max paylines. So, better bet on max lines even if it's more expensive if you don't use it as a strategy (to do progressive betting). If you don't trust me, kindly dwell into various slots' information sections, and sometimes you will read "The RTP only applicable for max lines" sort of thing.

[Timelord2067]

How about RTP in games that allow users to customize the paylines where they can bet on 1 of 10 pay lines up to 10 of 10 (max) paylines? ...

I shudder to think what kind of scam accusations, or beat-the-dead-horse kinds of threads that would be started and go on for months if someone were to claim they were owed the house on a floating set of rules on a given day.

It reminds me of Fizbin.

[mu_enrico]

Update!

RTP Variants: Same Game, Different RTPs

Always check for RTP! That should be the mantra for every slots player who doesn't want to get "soft-scammed" since the exact same game can use different RTP settings.

The provider who are known to have different RTP settings, as follows:
- Play'n Go: someone even reported to have only 84% RTP;
- Pragmatic Play: there are three RTP choices from 94% to 96%;
- Red Tiger: multiple RTPs down to 92%; source
- Nolimit City: usually the DX version pays -2% from the standard version (from my observation only, citation needed).

So always search for the best RTP slots machine, except you are filthy rich

[Vickysagar]

yeap, agree with the most... especially with how sick are play'n'go... zero chances to win most of the time

[mu_enrico]

yeap, agree with the most... especially with how sick are play'n'go... zero chances to win most of the time

If you play the default high 96%-ish games, you could still have lots of fun. I personally like the book of xxx mechanics, e.g., Book of Dead, Legacy of Dead, and Rise of Merlin. I think winning small in these slots (with default high RTP) are quite easy. The problem is we have to be careful with some casinos that use RTP variants. If you play a lot, you will notice, but better be safe by checking the RTP in its help/info section before you play.

[swogerino]

yeap, agree with the most... especially with how sick are play'n'go... zero chances to win most of the time

If you play the default high 96%-ish games, you could still have lots of fun. I personally like the book of xxx mechanics, e.g., Book of Dead, Legacy of Dead, and Rise of Merlin. I think winning small in these slots (with default high RTP) are quite easy. The problem is we have to be careful with some casinos that use RTP variants. If you play a lot, you will notice, but better be safe by checking the RTP in its help/info section before you play.

I have noticed the different RTP variants you are saying here in a Play n Go slot and more specifically in Swords and Holy Grail slot.I have noticed huge variance which I accept as the slot in the description says ultra high volatility but when the theoretical Rtp is lower like in the last 24h is 75% the games goes on a pattern of its own by making the bonus round difficult to fall on the reels.When the 24h Rtp is for example above 101% netting the bonus round in the reels happen within very few spins and I think that is the variance which makes us lucky or unlucky during our session.

[mu_enrico]

I have noticed the different RTP variants you are saying here in a Play n Go slot and more specifically in Swords and Holy Grail slot.I have noticed huge variance which I accept as the slot in the description says ultra high volatility but when the theoretical Rtp is lower like in the last 24h is 75% the games goes on a pattern of its own by making the bonus round difficult to fall on the reels.When the 24h Rtp is for example above 101% netting the bonus round in the reels happen within very few spins and I think that is the variance which makes us lucky or unlucky during our session.

Oh, we have Swords and Holy Grail addict here
What I meant by RTP variants was about different "default theoretical RTP," not about the live one. Even if the game (in this case, PnG) used high default RTP ~96.5%, users would still get the variance.

Most of the time, you will play within range, so if you notice your balance getting emptied too fast, you should check the help/info section.

[swogerino]

I have noticed the different RTP variants you are saying here in a Play n Go slot and more specifically in Swords and Holy Grail slot.I have noticed huge variance which I accept as the slot in the description says ultra high volatility but when the theoretical Rtp is lower like in the last 24h is 75% the games goes on a pattern of its own by making the bonus round difficult to fall on the reels.When the 24h Rtp is for example above 101% netting the bonus round in the reels happen within very few spins and I think that is the variance which makes us lucky or unlucky during our session.

Oh, we have Swords and Holy Grail addict here
What I meant by RTP variants was about different "default theoretical RTP," not about the live one. Even if the game (in this case, PnG) used high default RTP ~96.5%, users would still get the variance.

Most of the time, you will play within range, so if you notice your balance getting emptied too fast, you should check the help/info section.

Yes you spot it right I only play that slot.I still haven’t found one slot which can offer to go up to 5 spins with 100x multiplier and until I do this will my beloved slot.

And what I should specifically want to check in the info section as only rules are explained there and not the variance of the game.

[mu_enrico]

And what I should specifically want to check in the info section as only rules are explained there and not the variance of the game.

Good question! You can check the theoretical RTP here:



It says "96.53%" <- you should play with this RTP.

If you cannot find the theoretical RTP information in that "?" section, the chance is you play the "custom RTP" of The Sword and The Grail Slot.

In case you played the custom RTP slots variant. The custom RTP doesn't mean the casino where you play is a scam, but more of an expensive casino. They might give rakeback, bonus, or whatever else to offset the "high" spin price. But for me, I'd rather play on cheap casinos with no/little bonus.

[Timelord2067]

While a return to player might be 97% as favored in the poll, most players won't just sit for 100 rolls and walk away with their winnings, rather, they will keep playing for multiple hours and their initial wins will be tempered with replaying with those wins and eventually and wins will be smoothed out by overall losses.  Players need to evaluate how long they play for and how much their losses are going to be.

[mu_enrico]

^Well, it's a gaming industry, not "making money online without risks" industry.
True, play responsibly!


Anyways, I found this excellent article to inspect Play'nGo's RTP.
https://bestnetentcasino.info/en/blog/different-rtp-numbers-in-playn-go-slots

This way, we can check the custom RTP used by the casino by simply inspect -> network -> XHR -> select xxxfly.playngonetwrok.com

Here's the response you should be looking:

"<custom><RTP Value=\"94\" /></custom>"

Below 94: rekt machine
94: expensive
96: good! <- I only want to play with this setting.

[roycilik]

Always check for RTP! That should be the mantra for every slots player who doesn't want to get "soft-scammed" since the exact same game can use different RTP settings.

In the past, when I started playing slots, I didn't care to check the RTP information in the game info. After I often play on different platforms, I just realized it was true even though the game was the same but the RTP settings could be different.
But it doesn't seem right to say "soft-scammed", maybe the same as HE where each platform sometimes has a different value :v

don't wanna say what platform it is, you have known