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Author Topic: A Sovereign Bitcoiner's Manifesto  (Read 832 times)
OroroMunroe
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August 29, 2020, 01:48:07 PM
Last edit: August 29, 2020, 02:15:38 PM by OroroMunroe
Merited by mishax1 (10), 20kevin20 (5), SwayStar123 (5), suchmoon (4), o_e_l_e_o (2), Iamtutut (2), ritaconscience (1)
 #1

More than mildly, it annoys us that we have the tools to be truly sovereign and yet we continue to submit our ourselves, and our bitcoin, to centralised authorities. "Privacy is necessary for an open society in the electronic age"; yet KYC is demanded before we can trade."Not your keys, not your coins"; yet millions of bitcoin sit in the vaults of custodial exchanges and wallets.

For monetary liberty to be widespread it must be part of the social contract. We must come together to deploy decentralised systems that maintain Bitcoin's promise of sovereignty. These tools already exist and they are improving.

Awakening Our Inner Apex Predator
"When Satoshi genetically engineered bitcoin, he spliced DNA from organisms that never survived (B-money, Hashcash, Bit gold). This gives bitcoin an incredible amount of survivability and fierceness. It makes it the apex predator of money."

Billions of dollars in cryptocurrency is traded, lent and borrowed on platforms that have self-custody and no KYC. Billions of dollars in cryptocurrency but not bitcoin. This decentralized financial system is called DeFi. Many Bitcoiners deny, ignore and attack DeFi because it is an invention, a mutation, that occurred on Ethereum. This reflexive defensiveness ignores a fundamental truth about Bitcoin: If any technology can provide value for Bitcoin, Bitcoin will simply adopt it. A nuanced view of DeFi recognizes that it is composed both of valuable decentralisation but also of cancerous ponzis and evolutionary dead-ends. We will adopt DeFi where it improves Bitcoin DID (Defense-in-Depth) and cauterise the rest.  

Defense-in-Depth
Bitcoin maintains it's sovereignty through technological, cryptographic means. First and foremost, private keys provide the only means of control and ownership. Second, and most famously, Proof of Work defends the network against attack.

Attackers, however, are not limited to attacking the cryptography or the hashpower in order to limit our sovereignty. They route around and seek any weak links. "Trusted third parties are security holes". We increase the perimeter of defence by eliminating these trusted third parties.

Ethereum is Bitcoin’s Testnet
We will splice the DNA of DeFi into Bitcoin. We will increase Bitcoin's defense perimeter. The tools already exist. Ethereum is our testnet. Let it provide the radioactive pool where mutations are many. Let us observe it as it moves fast and breaks things. We will adopt it's best tools and learn to defend against its worst.

Rootstock, a Bitcoin sidechain, can be our CRISPR in this genetic adoption. We will splice the code from Ethereum dapps and improve upon them.

CypherpunkRouges
Cypherpunks write code, share code, review code and copy code. Sovereign individuals use this code. Like the X-men's Rouge, Bitcoiners will absorb the superpowers of others. I have been working on a DeFi dapp for decentralised bitcoin trading and lending. Hopefully you will join me, or better yet, compete with me.

"Those who would give up Liberty, to purchase a little temporary convenience, will have neither Liberty nor convenience." That will be our code. Onwards. BTC
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August 29, 2020, 01:56:26 PM
 #2

I lost access to my original BitcoinTalk user a long time ago, but I have created a new one for this. I have been corresponding with Ororo for a while now and have joined Team Sovryn. For years I have been wishing for, and sometimes working toward, having alternatives to exchanges that were almost as decentralised as Bitcoin itself. I simply loath to submit my Bitcoin to someone else's control and my views on the absolute idiocy of KYC are, I think, well known.

It's time for Bitcoin to have decentralised alternatives. I think the tech is finally here.
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August 29, 2020, 02:05:23 PM
 #3

Quote
If any technology can provide value for Bitcoin, Bitcoin will simply adopt it

Couldn't agree with this more and it's exciting to see this start playing out. Bitcoin is the first real application of decentralized finance, and today we have the tools to build on top of that and provide services that are immutable, uncensorable and that draw on the hardest money to ever exist..

Quote
Ethereum is Bitcoin’s Testnet

This is the right attitude. I have a feeling that many of the successful Defi apps on Ethereum will soon be migrating to other chains, and Bitcoin is a natural choice and probably the only choice, since its sound money attributes will keep on sucking in all the liquidity.

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August 29, 2020, 02:06:48 PM
 #4

You couldn't have said it better, Ororo!
I'm glad you sparked this revolution and happy to fight on your side. Investing time in Sovryn is investing time in your freedom! Who else is willing to join us?
OroroMunroe
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August 29, 2020, 02:12:51 PM
Merited by Karartma1 (1), Darker45 (1)
 #5

To me it seems that there is a segment of the Bitcoin community that are actually fearful of Ethereum. They try to protect against this by making it their mission to FUD everything that has the mere whiff of Ethereum. An unfortunate side effect of this is an inability to acknowledge any benefits that might come from smart contracts - which is ironic, since one of the true Bitcoin OGs , Nick Szabo basically invented the smart contract concept.

To my mind, Bitcoin has nothing to fear from Ethereum... any more than Bitcoin has anything to fear from any of its other testnets. The only thing we have to fear is the mental stagnation that comes with throwing the baby out with the bath water. I am not willing to concede smart contracts to Ethereum. We invented them, they are ours.
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August 29, 2020, 02:16:52 PM
 #6

~snip

Alright what this is all about, really? I've known Rootstock for a while now so I'm really curious. Posting here so that I can monitor the comments from the community.

I am not willing to concede smart contracts to Ethereum. We invented them, they are ours.

Bold.

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August 29, 2020, 02:24:23 PM
 #7

~snip

Alright what this is all about, really? I've known Rootstock for a while now so I'm really curious. Posting here so that I can monitor the comments from the community.

I am not willing to concede smart contracts to Ethereum. We invented them, they are ours.

Bold.
Same here, commenting the post to follow closely. Clearly this is not some noob work, there is something more than meets the eye behind all this. Sometimes this forum can amaze me like the old times. Don't disappoint me Smiley

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ArmandoAKADarwin
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August 29, 2020, 02:25:37 PM
 #8

I think a lot of the aversion to Ethereum that you seen in the Bitcoin community stems from a sense that Ethereum portrays itself as something that it is not (decentralized, immutable, verifiable). I think these criticisms hold a fair amount of truth to them. But if you understand that Bitcoin is a singular invention (of hard money that cannot be monopolized), then there is no reason to "fear" Ethereum. All that is left is to warn noobs and learn from all the experiments that Ethereum has facilitated.  
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August 29, 2020, 02:29:31 PM
 #9

To me it seems that there is a segment of the Bitcoin community that are actually fearful of Ethereum. They try to protect against this by making it their mission to FUD everything that has the mere whiff of Ethereum. An unfortunate side effect of this is an inability to acknowledge any benefits that might come from smart contracts - which is ironic, since one of the true Bitcoin OGs , Nick Szabo basically invented the smart contract concept.

To my mind, Bitcoin has nothing to fear from Ethereum... any more than Bitcoin has anything to fear from any of its other testnets. The only thing we have to fear is the mental stagnation that comes with throwing the baby out with the bath water. I am not willing to concede smart contracts to Ethereum. We invented them, they are ours.

I will never understand why any bitcoiner would be fearful of ethereum or vice-versa. Is just 2 different blockchains with way many differences that makes them both valuable.

If Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies is about freedom, the freedom of choosing the blockchain that better suits you should be a must.

If not it just looks like a ego battle.

With that said, I personally will always prefer Bitcoin, "never TheDAO'ed", Blockchain <3
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August 29, 2020, 02:39:04 PM
 #10

To me it seems that there is a segment of the Bitcoin community that are actually fearful of Ethereum. They try to protect against this by making it their mission to FUD everything that has the mere whiff of Ethereum. An unfortunate side effect of this is an inability to acknowledge any benefits that might come from smart contracts - which is ironic, since one of the true Bitcoin OGs , Nick Szabo basically invented the smart contract concept.

To my mind, Bitcoin has nothing to fear from Ethereum... any more than Bitcoin has anything to fear from any of its other testnets. The only thing we have to fear is the mental stagnation that comes with throwing the baby out with the bath water. I am not willing to concede smart contracts to Ethereum. We invented them, they are ours.

I share this observation. There may be a handful of hardcore supporters who seem to treat Bitcoin more than just a technology, something which people could further innovate and make improvements to. It seems to me these people are treating Bitcoin more as a dogmatic religion or a cult than just a progress out of early forbearers.

While there are certainly various technical reasons why Ethereum is being scoffed at by these personalities, it appears they lose objectivity in the process.





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OroroMunroe
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August 29, 2020, 02:50:44 PM
Last edit: August 29, 2020, 03:03:00 PM by OroroMunroe
 #11

Quote
Alright what this is all about, really? I've known Rootstock for a while now so I'm really curious. Posting here so that I can monitor the comments from the community.

Rootstock (RSK) is a pegged Bitcoin sidechain. That means it is uses bitcoin as it's native currency, is merged-mined with Bitcoin and can have different features from Bitcoin mainchain. On of the cool features of RSK (there are many), is that it allows us to build smart contracts (secured by the Bitcoin hashpower).

Work started on RSK, I think 5 years ago, and at the time there was a lot of excitement about sidechains. I remember them being considered the future of Bitcoin, the next evolutionary step. I still think that's true.
However, building *secure* and *decentralised* sidechains for Bitcoin is REALLY hard. Most people have heard of Liquid which is a trusted federation and not censorship resistant and that has come to be viewed as what Bitcoin sidechains are, and so the excitement waned.

In the meantime, RSK has continued to slowly evolve and it is now, in my opinion, finally evolving to a state where Bitcoiners can start building decentralised alternatives to exchanges, lending platforms and derivatives markets for Bitcoin.

This is our goal with Sovryn. To build a decentralised, open economy around decentralised, open money: Bitcoin. Call it Sovrynomics  Wink

You can check out our (obviously) opensource code here: https://github.com/DistributedCollective/

If things keep going reasonably well, Sovryn will be ready to start facilitating margin trading, spot trading and lending for Bitcoin in about 6 weeks.  
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August 29, 2020, 03:03:14 PM
 #12

This is our goal with Sovryn. To build a decentralised, open economy around decentralised open money: Bitcoin. Call it Sovrynomics  Wink

Great thread and great goal! Decentralized, open money and finance have always been key to improve our society and our freedom- and this have become specially relevant this year!
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August 29, 2020, 03:08:57 PM
Merited by suchmoon (4), stortz (1)
 #13

Hi OroroMunroe, first congratulations for the launch!

I'm a Bitcoiner since 2012 and I waited many years to this to happen. I worked my last 5 years to for the adoption of Bitcoin sidechains, not only RSK (a.k.a Rootstock) but ALL sidechains, so that Bitcoiners are prepared to take advantage of cryptocurrency innovations without interference with the base layer which guarantees the hard money properties of Bitcoin.

So I'm not only excited, but also emotionally moved when I see that DeFi on Bitcoin already happening. The early RSK team worked hard to integrate sidechains into Bitcoin when we showed in 2016 the first BIP and working code for a drivechain. But since then, the RSK community has been working to create the best possible sidechain technology within the current limitations, and I think we managed to do it. Now RSK has stablecoins, DEXes, and soon margin trading too.

I think open finance and stablecoins are key for mass adoption of Bitcoin, because stablecoins and decentralized exchanges are the lubricant required to frictionless interface with the billions of people that could benefit from it. But building infrastructure takes time, and margin trading is the spark that ignites the rapid development of an open finance ecosystem.

My only remark is that you keep your security to the highest standards possible. We must lead the DeFi movement by showing an example of responsibility towards our users.   
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August 29, 2020, 03:17:32 PM
 #14

High praise and an appropriate warning from a legend. Thanks!

Quote
My only remark is that you keep your security to the highest standards possible. We must lead the DeFi movement by showing an example of responsibility towards our users.

Absolutely. This has to be top priority. And nobody should trust us. The whole point is trustlessness. Please audit the code, anyone who can. It will always be opensource. We will make sure it is independently audited and that there is a bug bounty. But our hope is that this will be a community effort. One of the best ways you can help, is by showing us we F'ed up.

That said, we are mostly forking code that has already been audited and used to transact with substantial funds on Ethereum. This is not green code. It has already been seasoned.
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August 29, 2020, 03:23:08 PM
Merited by thesmallgod (1)
 #15

More than mildly, it annoys us that we have the tools to be truly sovereign and yet we continue to submit our ourselves, and our bitcoin, to centralised authorities. "Privacy is necessary for an open society in the electronic age"; yet KYC is demanded before we can trade."Not your keys, not your coins"; yet millions of bitcoin sit in the vaults of custodial exchanges and wallets.

For monetary liberty to be widespread it must be part of the social contract. We must come together to deploy decentralised systems that maintain Bitcoin's promise of sovereignty. These tools already exist and they are improving.
It's possible and advised not to store BTC on exchanges for a long time, so having your keys and your bitcoins is not that hard. Moreover, KYC is not required everywhere, so one can choose a place where it's not enforced. Regarding Bitcoin as a sovereign, I haven't heard this one before. I've read the article now, and I think it's fair that Bitcoin should be treated with no less respect that dollar has. However, I am not sure whether sovereignty is the correct word here. Perhaps what you're talking about is covered by decentralization and, maybe, independence. But this world is built on collaborations and interconnections, so Bitcoin should not stand aside, not willing to compromise even a bit.

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August 29, 2020, 03:27:43 PM
 #16

Quote
Moreover, KYC is not required everywhere, so one can choose a place where it's not enforced.

True, there are such options, however I think it's important that there be trading venues where KYC "can't" be enforced. Where there is a central operator, there is the risk of government intervention and erosion of sovereignty .
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August 29, 2020, 04:28:25 PM
Last edit: August 29, 2020, 04:42:06 PM by EdanYago
Merited by Last of the V8s (1)
 #17

Quote
Regarding Bitcoin as a sovereign, I haven't heard this one before.

The idea that Bitcoin is Sovereign is an old one, and should have more traction. One of the most AMAZING dramas in Bitcoin was around this. Mircea Popescu, a great but forgotten Bitcoin trolls was running an exchange called MPEx. Erik Voorhees listed SatoshiDice shares on MPEx, and after a while the SEC came knocking. They emailed Mircea demanding information. The result was a hilarious email thread with the SEC.

Some of the gems from that conversation:
- SEC asks to speak on the phone, Mircea suggest #bitcoin-assets on Freenode instead.
- SEC asks for information again, Mircea politely requests they "sufficiently establish your authority to do so"first.
- SEC send him a formal letter, Mircea says he appreciates their efforts, but actually they need to prove that he or they have any authority over Bitcoin.

The whole thing ends with: "Bitcoin is a sovereign".

...but don't let me ruin it for you, read the whole thing.
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August 29, 2020, 04:38:39 PM
 #18

Rootstock (RSK) is a pegged Bitcoin sidechain. That means it is uses bitcoin as it's native currency, is merged-mined with Bitcoin and can have different features from Bitcoin mainchain. On of the cool features of RSK (there are many), is that it allows us to build smart contracts (secured by the Bitcoin hashpower).

Work started on RSK, I think 5 years ago, and at the time there was a lot of excitement about sidechains. I remember them being considered the future of Bitcoin, the next evolutionary step. I still think that's true.
However, building *secure* and *decentralised* sidechains for Bitcoin is REALLY hard. Most people have heard of Liquid which is a trusted federation and not censorship resistant and that has come to be viewed as what Bitcoin sidechains are, and so the excitement waned.

In the meantime, RSK has continued to slowly evolve and it is now, in my opinion, finally evolving to a state where Bitcoiners can start building decentralised alternatives to exchanges, lending platforms and derivatives markets for Bitcoin.

This is our goal with Sovryn. To build a decentralised, open economy around decentralised, open money: Bitcoin. Call it Sovrynomics  Wink

You can check out our (obviously) opensource code here: https://github.com/DistributedCollective/

If things keep going reasonably well, Sovryn will be ready to start facilitating margin trading, spot trading and lending for Bitcoin in about 6 weeks.  

I really like that you are building this off as an open source project. While I understand that some projects need some sort of privacy for security settings, so this approach makes it feel as being more bound to the users that decide to use it. Wonder how the security section will work? I assume not all the code is going to be public, or will it? How do you plan to handle external attacks to security flaws in the project if it is all public? (not critizing at all, genuinely curious)
OroroMunroe
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August 29, 2020, 04:50:28 PM
 #19

Love this question!
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While I understand that some projects need some sort of privacy for security settings, so this approach makes it feel as being more bound to the users that decide to use it. Wonder how the security section will work? I assume not all the code is going to be public, or will it? How do you plan to handle external attacks to security flaws in the project if it is all public?

There are two approaches to security:
1. Security by obscurity (keep things private, so that attackers don't know about vulnerabilities)
2. Security by sunlight (make everything open, so that any security flaws can be found and fixed)

In opensource approach 1 doesn't work and cryptographers discovered that with good cryptography, it is not even needed, because approach 2 is better.

Bitcoin is a great example. It is totally public, and has become the single most secure software system ever devised. On the other hand, Bitcoin exchanges which are private, and have well paid security teams get hacked all. the. f'king. time.

So we are taking approach no.2. Build well-thought out tech, using well understood cryptography. Make it ALL public and ENCOURAGE people to find flaws in it.

Are there risks? Absolutely. Always DYOR! But this is the only approach that has proven itself in the long run.
JuanMD
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August 29, 2020, 05:44:23 PM
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Regarding Bitcoin as a sovereign, I haven't heard this one before.

The idea that Bitcoin is Sovereign is an old one, and should have more traction. One of the most AMAZING dramas in Bitcoin was around this. Mircea Popescu, a great but forgotten Bitcoin trolls was running an exchange called MPEx. Erik Voorhees listed SatoshiDice shares on MPEx, and after a while the SEC came knocking. They emailed Mircea demanding information. The result was a hilarious email thread with the SEC.

Some of the gems from that conversation:
- SEC asks to speak on the phone, Mircea suggest #bitcoin-assets on Freenode instead.
- SEC asks for information again, Mircea politely requests they "sufficiently establish your authority to do so"first.
- SEC send him a formal letter, Mircea says he appreciates their efforts, but actually they need to prove that he or they have any authority over Bitcoin.

The whole thing ends with: "Bitcoin is a sovereign".

...but don't let me ruin it for you, read the whole thing.

haha for some reason, always that there is a good anecdote about crypto "the" Erik Vorhees is present...
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