Donald Chump: a Dimwit Man-Child made President

[Gyfts]

Then why are you posting a link to Operation Warp Speed?

Because you were claiming Biden was referring to Trump literally making the vaccine himself in a lab.

This doesn't let Biden off the hook for this ''Trump" vaccine bullshit though.

So you were providing me a source to Operation Warp Speed to prove Trump was not making the vaccine himself in a lab?

[Spendulus]

....

So you were providing me a source to Operation Warp Speed to prove Trump was not making the vaccine himself in a lab?

that's so silly. Ivanka is making it.

[suchmoon]

So you were providing me a source to Operation Warp Speed to prove Trump was not making the vaccine himself in a lab?

Will you drop this straw man. No one except you is saying that. The issue is Trump (the president, remember?) pressuring FDA to approve the vaccine based on a specific date, despite FDA officials and scientists insisting how unrealistic that is. The fact that you need to post paragraphs of explanations of what Trump can or can't do etc is a dead giveaway that this is not normal.

Given Trump's history of appointing sycophants (e.g. Barr) there is a real concern that he may replace the top brass (who may resign if pressure continues) of the FDA with someone who'd do it for him. Or he could issue an executive order. Or just tweet that a vaccine will be available tomorrow. "I trust vaccines, I trust scientists, but I don’t trust Donald Trump" is what pretty much any sane person should be thinking looking at all this nonsense. It's not anti-vaxxer, it doesn't imply Trump is wearing a lab coat, so just drop it and find some real Biden gaffe to be agitated about.

[TwitchySeal]

Then why are you posting a link to Operation Warp Speed?

Because you were claiming Biden was referring to Trump literally making the vaccine himself in a lab.

This doesn't let Biden off the hook for this ''Trump" vaccine bullshit though.

So you were providing me a source to Operation Warp Speed to prove Trump was not making the vaccine himself in a lab?

I think by now you must understand that we were discussing your perception of what Biden was insinuating about Trump - not what Trump was actually doing.  So, I guess you must be arguing in bad faith.

[Gyfts]

So you were providing me a source to Operation Warp Speed to prove Trump was not making the vaccine himself in a lab?

Will you drop this straw man. No one except you is saying that. The issue is Trump (the president, remember?) pressuring FDA to approve the vaccine based on a specific date, despite FDA officials and scientists insisting how unrealistic that is. The fact that you need to post paragraphs of explanations of what Trump can or can't do etc is a dead giveaway that this is not normal.
about.

So my paragraphs of explanation is a dead giveaway that this is not normal, but you won't explain how and accuse me of strawman?

I'm telling you right now, Joe Biden will be bypassing federal FDA regulations to get out a vaccine ASAP. Vaccine production does not occur in 7 months with mass production in under a year without violating some sort of bureaucratic red tape.

The reason I bring this point up is again, Joe Biden is creating this perception that Trump is personally creating the vaccine himself by claiming that he will trust scientists and doctors, not Trump, about a vaccine. His running mate, very specifically saying

You can't possibly criticize a President for wanting a quick vaccine and then presumptively assume he's going to fire the commissioner of the FDA to match your beliefs. If you want to make a legitimate argument that Trump is pushing an unsafe vaccine, then wait till he actually fires all the scientists and doctors to push an unsafe vaccine early.


You're essentially repeating what Kamala Harris has to say on the issue which tells you right now it's not an actual legitimate point of concern because she will say absolutely anything to become elected. It's political mudslinging that I really understand why you believe to be true. We have the polling data already. We know there is a bias on who would take a vaccine when it comes to democrats and Republicans. So clearly a vaccine was politicized no matter which way you look at it, and Joe Biden is not helping.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/05/politics/kamala-harris-not-trust-trump-vaccine-cnntv/index.html

By the way, in this source, Chief advisor on Operation Warp Speed has explicitly said there has been no interference by Trump and that he would resign if Trump pushed emergency authorization he did not believe in. There is a zero chance that people will stand around and let Trump push an unsafe vaccine. It doesn't work this way. There is oversight.

I think by now you must understand that we were discussing your perception of what Biden was insinuating about Trump - not what Trump was actually doing.  So, I guess you must be arguing in bad faith.

I do actually want to know what your point was by linking Operation Warp Speed.

[suchmoon]

So my paragraphs of explanation is a dead giveaway that this is not normal, but you won't explain how and accuse me of strawman?

I did. It is absolutely not normal for the president to contradict and pressure a government agency in this situation. He should step back and admit that a vaccine before election day is extremely unlikely but he keeps using it as an election prop.

By the way, in this source, Chief advisor on Operation Warp Speed has explicitly said there has been no interference by Trump and that he would resign if Trump pushed emergency authorization he did not believe in. There is a zero chance that people will stand around and let Trump push an unsafe vaccine. It doesn't work this way. There is oversight.

And yet he's trying to do so, going as far as accusing the FDA of being "political" in the process of approving the vaccine because it's not happening as fast as he wants. Those are Trump's actions that are being criticized, not some made up story about him wearing a lab coat.

[TwitchySeal]

I think by now you must understand that we were discussing your perception of what Biden was insinuating about Trump - not what Trump was actually doing.  So, I guess you must be arguing in bad faith.

I do actually want to know what your point was by linking Operation Warp Speed.

You said you thought Biden was saying he didn't trust Trump to literally go make the vaccine himself in a lab.  Do you still think so after learning what Trump has said about the vaccine?

[Gyfts]

So my paragraphs of explanation is a dead giveaway that this is not normal, but you won't explain how and accuse me of strawman?

I did. It is absolutely not normal for the president to contradict and pressure a government agency in this situation. He should step back and admit that a vaccine before election day is extremely unlikely but he keeps using it as an election prop.

By the way, in this source, Chief advisor on Operation Warp Speed has explicitly said there has been no interference by Trump and that he would resign if Trump pushed emergency authorization he did not believe in. There is a zero chance that people will stand around and let Trump push an unsafe vaccine. It doesn't work this way. There is oversight.

And yet he's trying to do so, going as far as accusing the FDA of being "political" in the process of approving the vaccine because it's not happening as fast as he wants. Those are Trump's actions that are being criticized, not some made up story about him wearing a lab coat.

Are you forgetting when Obama routinely pressured government agencies throughout his administration to accomplish political goals? So by his standard, this is very normal.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbasile/2014/01/31/obamas-weaponization-of-government/#25ad0cf31b92

I wouldn't even say Trump is "pressuring" the FDA. Pressuring for me would be him firing everyone who refused to put out an unsafe vaccine.

[suchmoon]

I wouldn't even say Trump is "pressuring" the FDA. Pressuring for me would be him firing everyone who refused to put out an unsafe vaccine.

Whatever. It's quite amusing how you keep reading between the lines in what Biden or Harris said about Trump but you completely disregard what Trump actually said. Sure, no pressure when your boss tells you this project has to be done by November. What's the worst that can happen? Getting fired? Pffft. No pressure at all.

[Gyfts]

I wouldn't even say Trump is "pressuring" the FDA. Pressuring for me would be him firing everyone who refused to put out an unsafe vaccine.

Whatever. It's quite amusing how you keep reading between the lines in what Biden or Harris said about Trump but you completely disregard what Trump actually said. Sure, no pressure when your boss tells you this project has to be done by November. What's the worst that can happen? Getting fired? Pffft. No pressure at all.

Do you have a source for Trump in essence saying that a vaccine must be produced by November or he will threaten firings? For someone accusing me of reading in between the lines, you surely are making a lot of assumptions about what's going on inside the FDA and CDC.

If the CDC/FDA heads get fired, then you're right about this. There is legitimate causes for concern about Trump pushing an unsafe vaccine. You won't see me be happy about Trump firing scientists/doctors in order to push a vaccine. Until then, I'm not going to assume anything. I'll wait for the facts.

https://i.imgflip.com/22zr8r.jpg

I mean, 10/10 meme and all. But are you going to concede that you were wrong about the President pressuring federal agencies, and how it actually is normal considering Obama did it routinely? I notice many liberals here will never concede a point about anything that's a dig to their own party because for reasons I don't get. Whatever, I guess.

[suchmoon]

Do you have a source for Trump in essence saying that a vaccine must be produced by November or he will threaten firings? For someone accusing me of reading in between the lines, you surely are making a lot of assumptions about what's going on inside the FDA and CDC.

If the CDC/FDA heads get fired, then you're right about this. There is legitimate causes for concern about Trump pushing an unsafe vaccine. You won't see me be happy about Trump firing scientists/doctors in order to push a vaccine. Until then, I'm not going to assume anything. I'll wait for the facts.

I'm not making any assumptions. My opinion of this being not normal is based entirely on Trump's public words and actions. Saying that a firing must happen in order for this to be called "pressure" is ludicrous. If it was all benign as you're claiming there would be no reason for him to inject (no pun intended) himself into the vaccine timeline discussion with these contradictory statements. He could just say "vaccine will happen when it's ready and I have the best scientists/doctors working on this" etc.

I mean, 10/10 meme and all. But are you going to concede that you were wrong about the President pressuring federal agencies, and how it actually is normal considering Obama did it routinely? I notice many liberals here will never concede a point about anything that's a dig to their own party because for reasons I don't get. Whatever, I guess.

If Trump steps back and agrees with his far more qualified subordinates instead of saying things like this:

President Trump on Wednesday decried reported health agency efforts to issue stricter guidelines for evaluating a vaccine against COVID-19, accusing the Food and Drug Administration of playing politics.

Trump was apparently reacting to a Tuesday report in the New York Times that said the agency will soon move to tighten requirements for emergency authorization of any coronavirus vaccine to better ensure its safety and effectiveness.

"That has to be approved by the White House. We may or may not approve it. That sounds like a political move," Trump said during a press briefing at the White House.

"I think that was a political move more than anything else," he said.

I will concede that there is no longer pressure.

You're the one who brought up Obama in a Trump thread so spare me the BS. Feel free to meme me if I bring up Trump in an Obama thread.

[Gyfts]

I'm not making any assumptions. My opinion of this being not normal is based entirely on Trump's public words and actions. Saying that a firing must happen in order for this to be called "pressure" is ludicrous. If it was all benign as you're claiming there would be no reason for him to inject (no pun intended) himself into the vaccine timeline discussion with these contradictory statements. He could just say "vaccine will happen when it's ready and I have the best scientists/doctors working on this" etc.

So attempting to expedite a vaccine is not normal? What exactly do you think Joe Biden will be doing in office? Joe Biden will do everything Trump is doing except publicly talk to the media about it.

President Trump on Wednesday decried reported health agency efforts to issue stricter guidelines for evaluating a vaccine against COVID-19, accusing the Food and Drug Administration of playing politics.

Trump was apparently reacting to a Tuesday report in the New York Times that said the agency will soon move to tighten requirements for emergency authorization of any coronavirus vaccine to better ensure its safety and effectiveness.

"That has to be approved by the White House. We may or may not approve it. That sounds like a political move," Trump said during a press briefing at the White House.

"I think that was a political move more than anything else," he said.

Trump mouthing off nonsense like this is surprising? We've been at this for nearly 4 years now. I don't care about his useless words, I care about actions or direct evidence that he is going to push an unsafe vaccine. One example of this would be firing scientists who don't agree to sign off on an unsafe vaccine.

You're the one who brought up Obama in a Trump thread so spare me the BS. Feel free to meme me if I bring up Trump in an Obama thread.

You claimed that it is not normal for Trump to exert pressure on government agencies. I provided you a link of Obama doing the same exact thing which made your statement untrue. What else would you like me to do here when you say something that isn't true? Who else would you like me to reference other than a previous President doing the same exact thing you claim is not normal? 

[suchmoon]

So attempting to expedite a vaccine is not normal? What exactly do you think Joe Biden will be doing in office? Joe Biden will do everything Trump is doing except publicly talk to the media about it.

No, I don't think Biden will be doing everything Trump is doing.

Trump mouthing off nonsense like this is surprising? We've been at this for nearly 4 years now. I don't care about his useless words, I care about actions or direct evidence that he is going to push an unsafe vaccine. One example of this would be firing scientists who don't agree to sign off on an unsafe vaccine.

So is it normal or nonsense?

You claimed that it is not normal for Trump to exert pressure on government agencies. I provided you a link of Obama doing the same exact thing which made your statement untrue.

That's not how logic works. Someone else being accused of doing something similar (I don't think it's "same exact thing" - don't recall Obama calling out FDA for "political moves" regarding a vaccine a month before election) does not make my statement untrue.

What else would you like me to do here when you say something that isn't true? Who else would you like me to reference other than a previous President doing the same exact thing you claim is not normal? 

You could prove that I'm wrong, for example prove that Trump actually agrees with his government officials, scientists, and doctors, and that he accepts that the vaccine is very unlikely to be ready by November. That would be quite normal.

Also read up on logical fallacies. They're fun to use but here in P&S we have higher standards than just plain old Soviet-style whataboutism, and straw people are a fire hazard. Try appeal to pity, very fitting for a pandemic.

[Gyfts]

No, I don't think Biden will be doing everything Trump is doing.

Wishful thinking.

So is it normal or nonsense?

Trump spouting off to the media? Yeah, lots of nonsense there. Trump pressuring federal agencies? Definitely normal considering past Presidents have done this.

That's not how logic works. Someone else being accused of doing something similar (I don't think it's "same exact thing" - don't recall Obama calling out FDA for "political moves" regarding a vaccine a month before election) does not make my statement untrue.

That is absolutely how logic works. You're just saying that it's okay for Obama to exert political pressure on federal agencies, but not Trump. It's normal when Obama does it, but not Trump. 

I also don't recall Trump expanding the powers of the NSA and CIA engaging in warrantless wiretapping of private citizens or using his IRS to target oppositions of his party, which I would argue is worse than trying to expedite a vaccine during a pandemic. Regardless, the fact remains -- Obama pressured governmental agencies as did Trump. It's nothing unusual. It's the job of the executive to have authority over these agencies.

You could prove that I'm wrong, for example prove that Trump actually agrees with his government officials, scientists, and doctors, and that he accepts that the vaccine is very unlikely to be ready by November. That would be quite normal.

Alternatively, you could also provide me evidence that Trump is going to clear house of all employees in governmental agencies if they try to stop Trump from pushing an unsafe vaccine. I recall you mentioning that it's within the realm of possibility that Trump would fire the commissioner of the FDA. Any evidence to support this?

The CDC director said a vaccine could be ready by the end of 2020. Trump saying a vaccine could be ready by November isn't a lie, and it isn't him ignoring scientists. At most, that's being overly optimistic.

Dr. Fauci has also gone on the record numerous times stating that Trump has listened to himself and others regarding COVID-19 mitigation, for what it's worth.

[TwitchySeal]

Gyfts, Do you still think Biden was referring to Trump literally making the vaccine himself in a lab? 

[suchmoon]

~

So.... there is no pressure but if there is then it's normal because Obama but there is no pressure because Trump hasn't fired the head of the FDA yet. Is this the position that's supposed to instill confidence that the vaccine would not be rushed for political/election reasons?

That doesn't quite cut it for me but let's call it a difference of opinion.

[Spendulus]

~

So.... there is no pressure but if there is then it's normal because Obama but there is no pressure because Trump hasn't fired the head of the FDA yet. Is this the position that's supposed to instill confidence that the vaccine would not be rushed for political/election reasons?

That doesn't quite cut it for me but let's call it a difference of opinion.

The normal process is several years of testing for a vaccine. "Rushing" is pretty much the same whether the release to the public is in October or 2021 Jan - March whatever. In both cases it's "rushed out."

I'm not technically familiar with the series of tests that create the timeframes, but if they say they can get it out to the public reasonably safely, sounds good to me. Leave it to the medical professionals to figure the details.

[suchmoon]

The normal process is several years of testing for a vaccine. "Rushing" is pretty much the same whether the release to the public is in October or 2021 Jan - March whatever. In both cases it's "rushed out."

I'm not technically familiar with the series of tests that create the timeframes, but if they say they can get it out to the public reasonably safely, sounds good to me. Leave it to the medical professionals to figure the details.

There is no election in March and given the current progress of phase 3 tests the timeline is far more realistic so there's quite a bit of difference. The only way a vaccine could get approved before the election is some sort of emergency authorization bypassing phase 3. It would be a bad idea to make such a vaccine available to the general public. There might be some plausible limited use scenarios... but then again, there are phase 3 trials underway involving tens of thousands of subjects so Trump might as well brag about that instead of making dangerous statements like the intent to override FDA decisions.

Now can you convince Trump to leave it to the professionals?

[Spendulus]

The normal process is several years of testing for a vaccine. "Rushing" is pretty much the same whether the release to the public is in October or 2021 Jan - March whatever. In both cases it's "rushed out."

I'm not technically familiar with the series of tests that create the timeframes, but if they say they can get it out to the public reasonably safely, sounds good to me. Leave it to the medical professionals to figure the details.

There is no election in March and given the current progress of phase 3 tests the timeline is far more realistic so there's quite a bit of difference. The only way a vaccine could get approved before the election is some sort of emergency authorization bypassing phase 3. It would be a bad idea to make such a vaccine available to the general public. There might be some plausible limited use scenarios... but then again, there are phase 3 trials underway involving tens of thousands of subjects so Trump might as well brag about that instead of making dangerous statements like the intent to override FDA decisions.

Now can you convince Trump to leave it to the professionals?

I hope you will forgive me for carefully researching the facts instead of taking them as totally true as presented. Here is a decent writeup I think of the issue. It doesn't look like it would be Trump that would do the EUA. FYI I've never believed in this particular vaccine effort and thought it was more like getting the public to believe a "cure it all" was going to come from the scientists. More like a "Have faith" issue.

The current pace of phase 3 clinical trials means that the FDA might not have enough evidence of safety and efficacy to grant full approval to a Covid-19 vaccine before November.

Instead, the agency may invoke an emergency use authorization, or EUA, for a vaccine. This provision gives the FDA wide latitude to allow health providers to use approaches during a public health emergency that have a likely benefit. That’s a much lower bar than is needed for conventional approval, which requires a demonstrated health benefit with completed clinical trials.

FDA Commissioner Stephen Hahn said that his agency is open to the idea of issuing an EUA for a vaccine, bypassing phase 3 trials, but companies would have to take the lead. “It is up to the sponsor [vaccine developer] to apply for authorisation or approval, and we make an adjudication of their application,” Hahn told the Financial Times on August 30. “If they do that before the end of phase 3, we may find that appropriate. We may find that inappropriate, we will make a determination.”

https://www.vox.com/2020/9/8/21419912/covid-19-vaccine-coronavirus-fda-cdc-election-2020-trump

[suchmoon]

I hope you will forgive me for carefully researching the facts instead of taking them as totally true as presented. Here is a decent writeup I think of the issue. It doesn't look like it would be Trump that would do the EUA. FYI I've never believed in this particular vaccine effort and thought it was more like getting the public to believe a "cure it all" was going to come from the scientists. More like a "Have faith" issue.

I never said that Trump would do emergency authorization. I said that emergency authorization is the only possible vaccine availability path before November. Whereas Trump seems to be claiming (in this typical "nonsense" manner so I guess there is some wiggle room for you to deny it) that full approval is possible:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-marine-one-departure-080620/

Q    You said that — you said that a vaccine can be ready around November 3rd.  Are you optimistic that that will happen?  And will that give you a boost in the election?

THE PRESIDENT:  On the vaccine?

Q    Yes.

THE PRESIDENT:  I am.  I’m optimist that it’ll be probably around that date.  I believe we’ll have the vaccine before the end of the year certainly, but around that date, yes.  I think so.

Q    Mr. President, will that give you a boost in the election?  Will that help you in the election?

THE PRESIDENT:  It wouldn’t hurt.  It wouldn’t hurt.  But I’m not doing the — I’m doing it, not for the election.  I want it fast because I want to save a lot of lives.

And note the "I'm doing it"... doesn't it conjure up a picture of Trump in a lab coat? j/k