Nano Ledger S Seed and Nano Ledger S Recovery

[jerry0]

Also, for the love of bitcoin... STOP multiposting! just edit your previous post if you need to add something!

jerry0, how about you really start reading what others are writing to you?  Don't know what's going on in your head, but this problem of yours is something most would solve in 10 minutes - especially after you've been given very clear instructions.
[/quote]


Hi.  Well the big confusing thing here was after i installed the btc and bch apps, then click on add accounts, i saw that native segwit thing word as an add account which i never seen before.  Like if someone said okay just put in your seed, then install the apps into your new nano ledger s... and you don't need to add accounts since your ledger live is there... then well that would be very simple.

[jerry0]

What confuses me is after i type in the seed... then install both btc and bch apps in my nano ledger s... why would i need to click on add account for each if they accounts are already there in ledger live since i didn't touch it?  Or that is specifically for my old broken nano ledger s?

Your Ledger Live will show whatever accounts have previously been set up on it, regardless of what hardware device is or is not connected to it. What shows up in Ledger Live is no necessarily a reflection of the device which it is currently connected to.

Also because it shows the amount of bch and btc in those wallets ever since my old nano ledger s broke, that means those coins are still in my account right?

The coins were never in the account on Ledger Live to begin with. Ledger Live is simply showing you a representation of whatever hardware device was connected when you set those accounts up, which in this case is your old Nano S.

Then again when you restore you seed in a new device, arent those coins still in the same btc and bch addresses and not moved to a different address?

Correct. The coins never move.

You mentioned to me i could delete all my accounts now and re add them.  But is that one hundred percent safe?

It isn't dangerous because your coins are not in the accounts. You need the correct seed to access and spend your coins. If you have the correct seed, you can spend them regardless of whether the old accounts are there or not. If you do not have the correct seed, then having the old accounts still visible changes nothing.

If it were me, I would just wipe everything from Ledger Live to avoid any confusion and set up your accounts again using your new device.

Yes that is what im concerned about in your first sentence.  What shows up in my ledger live is not a reflection of the device it is attached to.  So how do i know for sure it is?  Is the only way to just send a tiny amount of btc from it to an old electrum address...  to see if it works?


Okay you say ledger live shows you the coins were in your old nano ledger s.  So that isn't the same as the specific btc or bch address?  I assume yes since your next statement means that?


Well here is the thing i mentioned earlier.  When i got the old nano ledger s years ago, the first thing i did was create a seed... then intentionally put wrong pin three times to reset it.  Then i did it a second time... create a new seed... then put wrong pin three times and reset it.  Then the third time, i created a new seed... then sent my btc from my electrum to the nano ledger s... and that has how it been ever since.  But i never ever confirmed the seed years ago because I didn't know there was a way to.  Actually around that time... I don't think there was that app which let you type in your seed to confirm the seed was correct.  But I did make sure to write the seed down twice and was very careful with it.  I then typed in the seed when doing the recovery and it worked.  Now im close to positive that this is the seed with the coins i have in my old nano ledger s. 
The thing is the first two seeds i created and reset when i first got my nano ledger s, I also wrote the seed for those first two times i created a seed as well... i didn't write it twice thought but only once on a paper but was careful but not as careful as the third seed i wrote which im positive is correct... which is correct because yesteday, it showed your device is ready.


Now there is obviously a very very tiny percent chance the first two seeds i wrote down... could possibly be my old nano ledger s account with my coins but the chances is almost nothing.  So that is why i ask... how do i confirm the seed which i put in yesterday for recovery is indeed the seed for my coins and not one of the other two seeds?  Again, im close to positive the seed i put down yesterday that worked is it.



So if i were to wipe my ledger live and add accounts again, then it would confirm the seed i put in yesterday is indeed my old nano ledger s right?  But when i add account, is it going to check mark that bc1 again?  Im guessing it would show bitcoin segwit 1 instead since i don't have that same name listed in my accounts?



But can i send btc or attempt to send a very tiny amount of btc now to electrum or attempt to send it.. to see if it works?  Because if i send say 0.0001 btc to an old electrum address... then if it confirms... then its fine right?  But if i had 0 btc in my new nano ledger s now... would it even allow me to attempt to send it?

[jerry0]

So right now, I can do one of two things right?


Either



Delete all my ledger live accounts, then add account for btc and bch and then see if it shows up correctly?  My concern is when i do this for btc... will i check mark that native segwit thing where i have to uncheck that and check which i assume is bitcoin segwit 1?  Then add bch account as well which I assume isnt going to be some weird confusing since there isn't like multiple things like native segwit and segwit?



Or


Try to send a tiny amount of btc from nano ledger s now to my old electrum address?  And if it goes through... then its good?  Then if it confirms, i should delete the bc1 account but should i also delete the btc, bch and btg accounts as well and add each of them again?   Or there would be no point?



Would my nano ledger s be able to attempt to send btc if i have no btc in the wallet?  Example if my nano ledger s has no btc... but when i go to send and click on btc... which show the amount of btc it has originally... then i copy/paste to electrum, then click send, would it show in my nano ledger s screen... you like to send 0.000x amount of btc to this address... is this address correct?  Would it even reach this part if i have no btc in my wallet?  I assume not right since if i had no btc... it wouldn't even get to the confirmation on my nano ledger s screen?



Again right now, i want to confirm the btc and bch accounts that always has been show in my ledger live... is in fact connected to my new nano ledger s where i did the seed recovery yesterday.




Because i feel like trying to send the btc first to electrum or attempt to do it... would confirm it better?  Then if it does, then i have zero concerns if deleting my accounts and restoring it.  Does that make sense?  Like if i just delete all accounts now and add them now, what if it doesn't show up the balances?  I would rather have the balances still showing there if you know what i mean even if i dont have the coins... does that make sense?



I like to finish this soon as this has been bothering me since yesterday.  I been basically on this since yesterday all day and till night. 


Can you guys confirm what I want to do here is the correct thing to confirm the coins in the btc and bch wallets in my ledger live are in fact connected to my new nano ledger s? 


Thank you.

[jerry0]

Hey all.  So I decided to open electrum up and try to attempt to send a tiny amount of btc from my nano ledger s to my electrum.



When I did this, i clicked on menu side on ledger live and clicked send.  Then i clicked on bitcoin 1 segwit which has my btc.  Then i copied an old electrum address to send to and clicked next.  For amount, i put in like 0.0001 btc of the possible x btc i have... and for the sending fees... default seems high... like fees is almost a dollar now?  Well i changed it to around 0.00001 btc or around ten cents.



Then clicked next and it went to summary.  Then it showed around 0.0001 btc to send and sending fees were around 0.00001 btc and I click next. 



Then it went to the last step... device.  Then it ask me to check my nano ledger s and on the nano ledger s screen, it ask me to confirm... do i want to send around 0.0001 btc to the address.... they actually broke down the address into three parts to read it... previously i remember it was just one part where it goes from left to right and you need to read it really fast.



Then i right clicked on my ledger a few times and i could click on accept... or reject.  I then decided to reject it.



Now because my nano ledger s screen got to the last step with it showing do i want to confirm sending 0.0001 btc to a certain old electrum wallet and it gave me option to accept or reject... that confirms that my new nano ledger s has the correct seed put in from yesterday right?  That the btc segwit and bch accounts shown in my ledger live are in fact connected to this new nano ledger s?  Because if it wasn't... my nano ledger s would never show all that information on the screen to either accept/reject the transaction right?



Like had i had 0 btc in my new nano ledger s... it wouldn't been possible for it to confirm you want to send 0.0001 btc if it had 0 btc right?



Should I just do this again and accept and do that transaction and send that 0.0001 btc to an old electrum address to confirm or is that completely unnecessary now based on this information?


Thanks.

[TryNinja]

~

Sounds like everything is right.

If you are paranoid and want to be 1000% sure, maybe make a small transaction. But if you can see your balance and even spend your coins, then I don't think there is anything wrong with your wallet.

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005321449-Check-hardware-integrity

Thanks for this link. One question to ask,
Are we trusting the manufacturer that there will be no malicious plan from them because if someone can do (temper with malicious stuffs) it to any specific device then without our knowledge the manufacturer can do the same thing. When the device connects to a online device and activates the seed there could be a way to transfer the information. I am talking about an imaginary possibility of course, not sue if this is making any sense.

We don't need to worry about this becoming a global problem, the much bigger danger for crypto is the users themselves - and even those who use hardware wallets.

This is very true. Most of the users in crypto are risking their coins just because they are not aware of the security stuffs to handle their assets.

[jerry0]

~

Sounds like everything is right.

If you are paranoid and want to be 1000% sure, maybe make a small transaction. But if you can see your balance and even spend your coins, then I don't think there is anything wrong with your wallet.

Thanks.  But can anyone here confirm because it went to the last part of the transaction where it ask me if i want to send 0.0001 btc to that address and then ask to accept/reject... that should confirm my old coins from my broken nano ledger s... is in fact in my new nano ledger s that i restored with my seed then? 


The thing is if i send some btc to electrum... that electrum is an older version and i havent used it in a while.  I opened it recently and it doesn't have no issue but i don't keep any coins there anymore.  Someone said there is risk if i dont update electrum but i honestly dont even want to open it anymore.  But i thought i needed a place to send tiny amount of btc... to confirm okay my new nano ledger s has the old coins from my old nano ledger s.

[HCP]

Ok... here goes...

1. Delete all the accounts in Ledger Live - This is 1000000000% "safe"
2. Connect and unlock your Nano S
3. Re-add accounts for your coins (BTC, BCH etc) in Ledger Live

Notes:
- "Existing" accounts are ones where Ledger has detected transaction history and/or balance.
- "New Accounts" have NO transaction history.
- Ledger Live might attempt to add "Legacy" (1-type), "SegWit" (3-type) and "Native SegWit" (bc1-type) BTC accounts. This is PERFECTLY NORMAL.




Legacy will probably only show up if it actually detects transaction history/balance in Legacy addresses. Otherwise, it will be "ignored" and default to offering to add "Segwit" or "Native SegWit" accounts. Ledger explains what they mean by these two terms here: https://www.ledger.com/academy/difference-between-segwit-and-native-segwit

[jerry0]

Ok... here goes...

1. Delete all the accounts in Ledger Live - This is 1000000000% "safe"
2. Connect and unlock your Nano S
3. Re-add accounts for your coins (BTC, BCH etc) in Ledger Live

Notes:
- "Existing" accounts are ones where Ledger has detected transaction history and/or balance.
- "New Accounts" have NO transaction history.
- Ledger Live might attempt to add "Legacy" (1-type), "SegWit" (3-type) and "Native SegWit" (bc1-type) BTC accounts. This is PERFECTLY NORMAL.




Legacy will probably only show up if it actually detects transaction history/balance in Legacy addresses. Otherwise, it will be "ignored" and default to offering to add "Segwit" or "Native SegWit" accounts. Ledger explains what they mean by these two terms here: https://www.ledger.com/academy/difference-between-segwit-and-native-segwit

HCP, okay im going to do it right now.



To delete each of the accounts, you need to manually do each one right?  Thus right click, edit, then delete each one?


I will start off with the bitcoin 1 native segwit... then do bitcoin gold, bitcoin cash 1 and then bitcoin 1 (segwit)?

[Rath_]

To delete each of the accounts, you need to manually do each one right?  Thus right click, edit, then delete each one?

That's correct.

I will start off with the bitcoin 1 native segwit... then do bitcoin gold, bitcoin cash 1 and then bitcoin 1 (segwit)?

The order in which you delete those accounts does not matter.

[HCP]

To delete each of the accounts, you need to manually do each one right?  Thus right click, edit, then delete each one?

Or you can totally reset Ledger Live by going to: Settings -> Help -> Reset Ledger Live

And click the big red "Reset" button:



That basically just deletes all the app data and makes Ledger Live like a completely new, clean install again. Again, this is 100000000% safe and will not delete any of your coins etc

[jerry0]

Okay i manually deleted all those accounts.


Now when i add account and add bitcoin



It shows


Add existing account


Bitcoin 1 (segwit)  -  Correct Amount of BTC and Blue Check Mark Next To It



Add new account


Bitcoin 1 (native segwit)  - Blue Check Mark Next to It

Bitcoin 2 (segwit)   -  No Check Mark



So right now there is blue check mark for those 2 accounts.  So i click add accounts now?  I assume I leave the check mark Bitcoin 1 (segwit) as is and uncheck the native segwit?  Or just leave it as is?


There is no legacy word anywhere there.  

[Rath_]

So i click add accounts now?  I assume I leave the check mark Bitcoin 1 (segwit) as is and uncheck the native segwit?  Or just leave it as is?

If you don't intend to use the native SegWit account then you can uncheck it and select "Add account". Leave "Bitcoin 1 (segwit)" checked.

There is no legacy word anywhere there

You didn't have a legacy account so there is nothing to worry about.

[HCP]

So right now there is blue check mark for those 2 accounts.  So i click add accounts now?  I assume I leave the check mark Bitcoin 1 (segwit) as is and uncheck the native segwit?  Or just leave it as is?

If you want to use a "Native Segwit" account with "bc1" addresses going forward, then leave it checked, otherwise uncheck it. It makes no difference, you will be able to add/remove that account as you wish in the future... and it does not affect your "SegWit" account where all your coins are.

There is no legacy word anywhere there.  

Like I already said:

Legacy will probably only show up if it actually detects transaction history/balance in Legacy addresses. Otherwise, it will be "ignored" and default to offering to add "Segwit" or "Native SegWit" accounts. Ledger explains what they mean by these two terms here: https://www.ledger.com/academy/difference-between-segwit-and-native-segwit

[jerry0]

Well I decided to just leave both checked.



Then I see in my accounts Bitcoin (native segwit) with no btc and Bitcoin 1 (segwit) with the correct amount of btc.



Then i added bitcoin cash and it shows as bitcoin cash 1 and the correct amount of bch is there.



I also added bitcoin gold as well even though I don't have any bitcoin gold but i had the app installed in the old nano ledger s and when i did this, it shows the name as Bitcoin Gold 1 (segwit)?  Previously i recall the name i had there in the old nano ledger s with ledger live was bitcoin gold 1 only so why does it name segwit after it?



So right now it shows in my accounts



Bitcoin 1 (native segwit) with no btc                                Bitcoin Gold 1 (segwit) with no bitcoin gold which is correct



Bitcoin Cash 1 (segwit) with correct amount of BCH          Bitcoin 1 (segwit) with the correct amount of btc





So everything is good then right?  Thus the seed that I put in yesterday is exactly the same seed as my old nano ledger s?



Also if i wanted to, i could just delete that account Bitcoin 1 (native segwit) with no btc  right?  And thus have the same three accounts like i did before this?  With the btc gold, bch and btc?



Thus no point in me even sending a tiny bit of btc to electrum anymore to test this right since this confirms my seed i put in yesterday is correct since this all shows up?

[HCP]

So everything is good then right?  Thus the seed that I put in yesterday is exactly the same seed as my old nano ledger s?

Yes, obviously... as you can see all your coins.

Also if i wanted to, i could just delete that account Bitcoin 1 (native segwit) with no btc  right?  And thus have the same three accounts like i did before this?  With the btc gold, bch and btc?

Do you even read what I write?

If you want to use a "Native Segwit" account with "bc1" addresses going forward, then leave it checked, otherwise uncheck it. It makes no difference, you will be able to add/remove that account as you wish in the future... and it does not affect your "SegWit" account where all your coins are.

Thus no point in me even sending a tiny bit of btc to electrum anymore to test this right since this confirms my seed i put in yesterday is correct since this all shows up?

Correct. That would be a pointless exercise and a waste of time and sats

[jerry0]

HCP and everyone else, I appreciate all of your help.   But especially you HCP.



You have no idea how anxious and nervous I was ever since yesterday.  Well HCP, you certainly did since i messaged you so much.  Again im not tech savy and i freak out a lot in this.  But all you guys seem very relaxed with this which is what i try to be... but tech like this always scares me.  I even get nervous when i connect my ledger whenever to my laptop.  But my big concern was i never tested my seed as in restore it before this time.  So if i had a wrong word or seed, then i would been screwed.



Again thanks to all of you especially HCP.  But when HCP yesterday told me yea... the restoring word seed was a lot different than normal, then that made me feel a bit better. Also one other thing.  Is the screen display much different when you put in the pin number?  I noticed the first thing was when i connected my laptop to it and put a pin... the screen is like a bit different like the numbers seem to be bigger or something compared to it months ago?  HCP did you notice this as well?  Like when you type in the numbers for pin, they are much bigger/wider?

[HCP]

Does it really matter?

Ledger have made multiple changes to the UI over the last year or so... The layout of the PIN screen definitely changed at some point, but I can't remember exactly when.

It used to look like this:



Now it looks like this:

[jerry0]

Does it really matter?

Ledger have made multiple changes to the UI over the last year or so... The layout of the PIN screen definitely changed at some point, but I can't remember exactly when.

It used to look like this:



Now it looks like this:

HCP... yes ... that is how it looked back then... and how it looked now. 


So when i was typing in the pin, i thought... they completely changed that as well. 

[Lucius]

Are we trusting the manufacturer that there will be no malicious plan from them because if someone can do (temper with malicious stuffs) it to any specific device then without our knowledge the manufacturer can do the same thing. When the device connects to a online device and activates the seed there could be a way to transfer the information. I am talking about an imaginary possibility of course, not sue if this is making any sense.

I think too much attention has been paid to Ledger and their devices to even try something of this magnitude - and in the end I think they are very transparent in terms of all the components that anyone with technical experience can test themselves. Your concern is something that worries many users, because if something is generated on a device we wonder if there is a way for that same device to pass that information (unauthorized) to someone else.

Since Ledger manufactures its devices, no one has determined that such a possibility exists - but we can't say that any device is 100% safe. While it may not be directly related to your question, it’s good to know how Ledger devices generate seed.

https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360010073520-Quality-of-randomness