Proof of pure luck

[Ucy]

I regards to posting hashes on a seperate page of a *betting* site. I guess the "hash page" should be immutable to prevent the admin of the betting site from changing the hashes, or is it immutable?

Lately, I'm building a keno-based game that will prove its luck and I would like your opinion about that. I will leave an option to gamble with real bitcoins, but you can of course try it for free once it's done. It's just an experiment.

I think they should bet with little bitcoins (what they can afford to lose) and not gamble(take big risk).



Anyway, I think you may be trying to do this to see bettors chances of winning games with high/low chances of winning.
I think the games with high chance of winning "big" should cost more or be more valueable while those with low chances should cost less. That is how I assume the betting sites owner do it.
This^ makes things not pure luck

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[leea-1334]

Guess you finally stumbled upon provably fair and what it means. I learnt also that PF is not provably random, but at least if you can prove that the house and the gambler both cannot control the outcome,,, then it is fair for both (in some cases like if you RNG on blocks found on Bitcoin).

[freedomgo]

It's a nice idea but this is what most casinos do as well which are provably fair! They give you a server hash which you can later verify by combining with your client seed and check if the results produced are the same or not. Am I missing something? Because technically it's the same thing as you have just proposed! Sites that offer keno games like stake, have the exact same mechanism to prove that they are indeed fair!

Fair or not, the possibility of the house defrauding will still be an existing threat to players particularly the high rollers. They could still run with the money just as it had happened in the past. The only thats is important I think is how long the casino had established themselves in the industry that had build the trust over time. When a casino had been around for years and have not gotten some accusations, will not run out of players whether they play out of luck or with a strategy implemented.

That's possible but IMO no casinos who are in right mind will scam people if they are already operating with a profit.

When they are making money from gambling, that means consistent for them as they will always win due to house edge, if they decide to scam, they will get the money once and they could be jailed if caught, so let's think about that, my answer is that sites with good reputation would not cheat their gamblers.

[Lakai01]

and tbh, not many people are really bothering the provable fairness if they are known and reputable casinos here. as what dunfida is saying, it is just a headache if you want to investigate their backdoors.
 and how many people do you think are verifying their bets? i guess not so many. maybe one can check once or twice just to check the site.
but most of us are too lazy to verify the bet every time we roll. not practical esp if you are playing in a reputable casino.

I do this on a regular basis, especially when I start playing at new casinos. At casinos that have been around for a long time - like Bustadice - I rarely do that and only when I have a run of bad luck

Sites like BTCGosu offer "Provably Fair Verifiers", with which it is really easy to verify your bets, you don't need any technical understanding:


Source

So if I can only recommend to verify your bets regularly, it gives you the safety of not being cheated.

[Timelord2067]

...

If an observer is able to view the randomly generated numbers prior to the hashing, then they can tip off an investor to select those specific numbers and win the pot.

That being said, applying something like this to the "random" selection of users who qualify for the DT1 each month would go a long way towards transparency when @theymos is making their selection each month.

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@LoyceV

[Pamadar]

Guess you finally stumbled upon provably fair and what it means. I learnt also that PF is not provably random, but at least if you can prove that the house and the gambler both cannot control the outcome,,, then it is fair for both (in some cases like if you RNG on blocks found on Bitcoin).

It's better that way, if both gamblers and house are unable to control the outcome then it's fair enough to continue enjoying the game.
Most of us always aiming and looking for some ways to take advantages within any luck based games but there's none, maybe just maybe if someone can take some decent benefits it's still not the majorities.

[Natalim]

Guess you finally stumbled upon provably fair and what it means. I learnt also that PF is not provably random, but at least if you can prove that the house and the gambler both cannot control the outcome,,, then it is fair for both (in some cases like if you RNG on blocks found on Bitcoin).

It's better that way, if both gamblers and house are unable to control the outcome then it's fair enough to continue enjoying the game.
Most of us always aiming and looking for some ways to take advantages within any luck based games but there's none, maybe just maybe if someone can take some decent benefits it's still not the majorities.

Definitely not because a luck based games always have the edge in favor or the house or the gambling sites, it's possible to win but only few will because the majority of us will lose in the long run, due to the "HOUSE EDGE", that's very important to understand, regardless of how small it is, it's still an edge.

[AniviaBtc]

Lottery is a pure luck-based game which is really hard to win. You need to combine a lot of numbers that has really a low probability of winning due to a lot of possible combinations that might come out. Let's say that you need to choose between 1- 50 and make a combination of 6 number in any order, that's really hard to do and to guess. That's the proof that pure luck can be experienced in playing lottery, roulette, and etc. It is obviously a pure luck gambling game if it make you lose a lot of money first until you win.

[Mauser]

Lottery is a pure luck-based game which is really hard to win. You need to combine a lot of numbers that has really a low probability of winning due to a lot of possible combinations that might come out. Let's say that you need to choose between 1- 50 and make a combination of 6 number in any order, that's really hard to do and to guess. That's the proof that pure luck can be experienced in playing lottery, roulette, and etc. It is obviously a pure luck gambling game if it make you lose a lot of money first until you win.

I agree with you, a lottery game is probably the closest we can get to pure randomness and also the proof of pure luck. Winning in the lottery is so unlikely that its more likely to get hit by a lightning than win any of the big lotteries
Casino games like roulette and dice are getting very close to such randomness
But the luck is not pure, because you can adjust your strategies and change your luck/odds with every round.

[samcrypto]

It's a nice idea but this is what most casinos do as well which are provably fair! They give you a server hash which you can later verify by combining with your client seed and check if the results produced are the same or not. Am I missing something? Because technically it's the same thing as you have just proposed! Sites that offer keno games like stake, have the exact same mechanism to prove that they are indeed fair!

Fair or not, the possibility of the house defrauding will still be an existing threat to players particularly the high rollers. They could still run with the money just as it had happened in the past. The only thats is important I think is how long the casino had established themselves in the industry that had build the trust over time. When a casino had been around for years and have not gotten some accusations, will not run out of players whether they play out of luck or with a strategy implemented.

I'm wondering if the gamblers really check the fairness of the specific gambling site and I'm also wondering if they really care for this one. Honestly, I play easily and don't spend much time on checking the site if they are fair or not, as long as they said they are fair Its fine with me since I only gamble with my small money and very rare to play. If you doubt on the fairness of the gambling site then check it, or ask the other players about this one.

[YuginKadoya]

Regardless of the randomness of games, there is a probability for owners to control the system and manually operate it if they really want to but I think it will be obvious for players and gamblers to notice it if he or she would play there very often I think it is up for owners if they would do such things, and we gamblers would surely don't really notice such scams until a person working with its program confess they're wrongdoings,

I would love to try your Keno-Based game and make my opinion about it as well.

[robelneo]

Few months in the gambling industry and I've never seen anyone ever questioning: How am I supposed to be sure that what am I playing is based on pure luck?

The owners could have simply programmed the numbers in a way to always be profitable, but not 100% lucky. The problem is that even if the admins were honest and said that the numbers of their game are getting generated randomly, there's no proof that they do. You still have to trust them and since we're talking about entrepreneurs, we can't be sure they're not lying. By making the program open source, yes, you do have made a big step, but still, the client can't view the back-end's code to check that the files are the open sourced ones.

Provably fair is the foundation where Cryptocurrency online gambling is built, without this people will always have the allegation that they have been cheated, that is why Crypto gambling sites can stay online for many years because of the provably fair and the house edge, but still gamblers should always check the gambling site where they are playing, some of the issues and allegations are none payment and allegations of breaking the rules of gamblers.

[MWesterweele]

Lottery is a pure luck-based game which is really hard to win. You need to combine a lot of numbers that has really a low probability of winning due to a lot of possible combinations that might come out. Let's say that you need to choose between 1- 50 and make a combination of 6 number in any order, that's really hard to do and to guess. That's the proof that pure luck can be experienced in playing lottery, roulette, and etc. It is obviously a pure luck gambling game if it make you lose a lot of money first until you win.

As what other said the winning lottery number can be solve by just getting the probability of an event of wins and a probability of lose and of cours with the help of mathematical method called the probability and statistics. But to be honest i didn't believe in this maybe i'm not just good enought by solving this probabilities but i am used to believe in a pure luck. Yes lottery was one and maybe first in list of a gambling that was a proof pure based luck of game. I didn't ever tried betting in this game i am not that type of a person who has a good luck.

[pawanjain]

Thanks for the information and detailed explanation. AFAIK, it is possible to change player seed on many gambling platforms and this should increase randomness.
~snip
That is why gamblers prefer to bet on lucky numbers aka date of birth, wedding day, etc. Btw, is it possible to achieve 100% authentic randomness?

It shouldn't be that hard to achieve 100% randomness since there are many built-in functions and libraries that programmers can use to generate random numbers.
Collaborating few of the random output to create a string of random of numbers should not be that difficult. But if all the gambling sites start using this then they might not be able to generate profits out of their site. This is risky for their business which is why many gambling sites fake their data so that their users only win a limited number of times.

[kryptqnick]

AFAIK authentic randomness can only be achieved with physical randomness like real dices, coins, card decks, nuclear activity, etc. But here we are talking about unbiased randomness, it's quite different.

I believe it's vice versa. I've seen articles about people rolling physical dice to their advantage, coins being rigged with one side slightly harder than another and things like wind or surface playing their role. So I think that only a virtual dice can fall to one of the six sides with exactly equal probability and thus truly randomly. And of course many games offer not random results, but with the special outcome probabilities that a player chose (which can also be done only virtually).
As for the specifics of a provably fair system, maybe it doesn't matter that much, as long as there's no way a casino would cheat.

[aioc]

Reading this hit me with a realization.

As long as we are gambling online, either slot, roulette or dice, we can't achieve that randomness that we all wanted unless we actually use a natural dice, roulette, I don't know about slots though. Then if you win, a casino could make an exit scam and won't pay the winners or even sometimes freeze the account, provable fair my $$$.

You mean the cloutbet issue and the other sites who did not pay their gamblers, they are out of the business and some of them will eventually out of business, the best decision for a gambler to make is to pick the right gambling site to play, once they find it you will have no issues as long as you are following the rules.

[Becky666]

~~~~ Let's say that you need to choose between 1- 50 and make a combination of 6 number in any order, that's really hard to do and to guess. That's the proof that pure luck can be experienced in playing lottery, roulette, and etc. It is obviously a pure luck gambling game if it make you lose a lot of money first until you win.

You're right, personally as a gambler, i don't care about the cracks to find the actual lucky numbers while i gamble but doing this without the mindsets of getting pick-up the right numbers saves my stress. Just pick to hang-up a number is my best wishes becasue most of my gambling activities are done becasue of fun and entertainment seeking. Those who gamble solely to earn from their gambling will definitely end-up going through tough means to choose the right number.

[wxa7115]

Reading this hit me with a realization.

As long as we are gambling online, either slot, roulette or dice, we can't achieve that randomness that we all wanted unless we actually use a natural dice, roulette, I don't know about slots though. Then if you win, a casino could make an exit scam and won't pay the winners or even sometimes freeze the account, provable fair my $$$.

And even then you are never going to be completely sure a physical casino is not cheating you either, slots could be programmed to not payout until you play for a duration of a time, the die could be loaded, there have also being cases of roulettes being modified to allow the casino to influence the results, the cards of a blackjack dealer could be marked allowing him to know which card is coming ahead of time and then perform a second deal to avoid that card or to avoid a player to get that card.

So at the end we still need to put some trust in the casinos we are playing but if the casino has been around for a very long time then the chances that is cheating are lower as there is always the possibility someone had realized their cheating and then exposed them to the public for what they really are.

[dothebeats]

Interesting fact!

Proof of luck will always matter on the provably fair system that the gambling site has. Users always monitor the hash given to ensure the accuracy of giving the hash and it should always accurate to the result. This means that there is no manipulation of the sites between the operator of the site. OP was extremely right. Verifying gambling sites that have claim provably fair will always good even though dice site gambling.

Except I don't, and a lot of the gamblers currently in the scene wouldn't care that much especially if they are playing in a trusted platform with years of interaction and good standing in the community. Provably-fair is a concept that let's you check whether a platform is being true to you or not, and if it doesn't, even just for a single instance, you take your business elsewhere. Though of course you will never do hash checking all the time when you are gambling. That'll be time-consuming and might lead you to lose your elements and focus in the game. Besides, there are more ways that a platform can cheat to you than one, so why bother on a single aspect that most in the industry have been checked by other players than you all the time? I mean it's good, but checking it every single bet is just really taking away the experience of gambling IMO.

[hatshepsut93]

Was the way I wrote known for years? I thought they made their packages open source.

What do you mean "they made their packages open source"? And cryptographic commitment schemes have been a thing for nearly as long as modern cryptography exists, this is just an example of a practical application of this. This is a fairly simple thing, so there's even no need to start an open-source project for that, any programmers with a little bit of experience could implement it in a few hours.

Also crypto casinos, especially lotteries, sometimes use things like Bitcoin block hashes as a source of randomness, because in case of a lottery it's not enough to just commit your numbers, a casino could simply register as a player, and since they know the results beforehand, they would create a fake winning for themselves and steal all the bets that aren't winning.