25th Word in Nano Ledger S

[jerry0]

The extending your seed thing... i know its an advanced step but for some reason i just dont feel comfortable doing it with one device for some reason.

No one is forcing you to do it. You are the one putting unnecessary pressure on yourself to have a passphrase while you are still struggling with the basics. 

Are you people storing passphrase in different location from your seed then?  Yea i know you should always write passphrase down just in case.  So its like you need to make sure this word is far away from your seed?

Yes, they have to be separate one from the other. There is no purpose in having a passphrase to prove an additional layer of security if that security can be compromised by finding both the seed and passphrase on the same paper.   

But the way people say keep multiple backups, it seems like ppl say just backup your seed in multiple usb sticks encrypted etc. 

No one has said or recommended that to you. But for some reason, your brain understands tips like don't store your seed online or in a digital format as keep your seed on a password manager or USB drive. 

But someone mentioned you could also put it in a airtight container with those gel packs to keep moisture out so thats a way to protect it.

Or even better, don't store your seed on a USB drive.

Yea human memory is bad and will fail.  I got to wonder... what percentage of ppl actually remember the password in their head?

For the love of God, how would HCP or anyone else possible know that?   

I also just thought about one last idea.  I know you going to hate it because well its an online cloud solution.  But you get a brand new computer or wiped computer... download password manager.  Enter half your seed on it.  Then upload it to dropbox or gmail.  Then you do the same thing with the other half of the seed in another password manager but do this with another dropbox/gmail of yours.  Then to make it even more secure, get a passphrase and put that in a different password manager copy.  While you are doing this, make sure this device is a brand new or wiped laptop.

That's the way to do it, please do that.   

The only thing is you need to make sure you never forget your three email addresses and passwords and of course your password manager password.  That isn't that bad right?

No, it's revolutionary. Why memorize just one passphrase, when you can memorize 3 email addresses and their 3 passwords + the password of your password manager.

Do you see a flaw with this though?

None, whatsoever. It's so fulfilling to see that you have adopted so much knowledge in all these years. You were just a baby when you came here, and no you are ready to take on the world. 

Well if whatever method i have is working now... wouldn't you say still do it?  I had my seed stored in password manager uploaded to the cloud for many years... with no issue.  Of course anything could happen to it.  The main concern for me would be downloading malware/keylogger because if that happens, my whole laptop is compromised and anything I type in etc... is viewable to hacker.


I actually would put a passphrase now... if say I just got a nano ledger the first time or if I got replacement nano ledger.  But a concern of mine now is buying another nano ledger since well they have that ledger leak etc.  Though that shouldn't matter since i already bought a nano ledger a while back from ledger since its already in their database?  You would agree typing your passphrase in password manager as another copy would certainly be fine right?


When you say if you have passphrase, you need to make sure its separate from your seed.  By that, you mean like not in the same location such as the piece of paper next to each other?  Or you mean make sure passphrase and seed are not the in the same apartment/house?  Would you say its fine for seed in one location of house... passphrase in another location? 


Well besides piece of paper, it seems almost everyone says storing it in encrypted usb stick seem to be either the second or third most popular way.  That is from looking at people responses which is why I say this.
I mean storing it in password manager and putting it in encrypted usb drive is what people mean right?  Because I do that with copy of my password manager on the usb.  However, I didn't encrypt the usb though... but password manager is encrypted.


Well I think trying to remember your seed is the most foolish thing one can do.


Well that new idea i thought about... I'm not really sure what flaws there are.  Three different emails and three different passwords with two seeds in two of the emails... and passphrase in last email and remember this is done in three different password managers.  By that, i do mean same password program though like 1password or keepass.    You write those passwords down on piece of paper to have multiple copies of it.  Then you make sure you remember three emails... and make sure you remember your password manager password.  You aren't trying to remember those three passwords as well.  And only log into those email accounts only when you going to access your seed and only do this on a machine that does not do anything else.  Thus anytime you need access to your seed... you do this and log into your three emails to get it.  Then log out.  You do not visit any sites you are not sure of.  Heck don't even visit youtube etc.  And if something happens to that computer, completely wipe it new or get a brand new computer etc.  Of course that computer would be connected to the internet as oppose to airgap.

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[HCP]

Well that new idea i thought about... I'm not really sure what flaws there are.

The flaws have already been pointed out. You have gone from trying to simply, safely and securely store 12 words (and potentially a separate BIP39 passphrase)... to attempting to remember 3 different accounts (email+password) on some cloud based storage service to store 2 "half" seeds and your BIP39 passphrase.

If you already have your whole seed stored encrypted in one password manager... you may as well just leave it there. The setup seems to work for you, and you seem to be happy with it. It also seems to suit your "mobile" lifestyle.

With all of this 3 emails/3 passwords nonsense, all you are doing now is adding layer upon layer of complication that doesn't really add any security, but makes the likelihood of data loss higher.

K.I.S.S.

When you say if you have passphrase, you need to make sure its separate from your seed.  By that, you mean like not in the same location such as the piece of paper next to each other?  Or you mean make sure passphrase and seed are not the in the same apartment/house?  Would you say its fine for seed in one location of house... passphrase in another location? 

It really doesn't matter... as long as they are not kept together and not easily "linked" to each other... so don't write on the passphrase backup: "BIP39 passphrase"



This is how I imagine jerry0 staples 2 pieces of paper together:

source

[jerry0]

Well it went from remembering just your email/cloud username/password and your password manager password.... to now remembering three different usernames and password manager password.  The passwords for those three different emails would be written down etc... but anyone who finds it... wouldn't have a clue what email its linked to.


I mean... if you have three separate emails that you used... or you create them... wouldn't you say its kind of hard to forget your email if say two of them you use you been using for years?  Hard to forget those emails don't you agree?  Of course you have to remember one new email.  But yea higher chance of data loss this way etc.


And yea... the password manager password would be same for all three though.  Yea i think this is getting more complex... but it would be more safe than the way i talk about etc.  Well that does seem good for someone who has a mobile lifestyle... you have to agree on that right?  I mean... look at those ppl who travel a lot and use crypto for everything.  Storing it in cloud would make sense since they have it anywhere they go without losing a paper... but yea online risk is very high.



Well obviously keeping it simple is the best.


But the fact is for you to say almost every single way of storing your seed... you could think of at least 5 bad things about it... makes it really tough.


I also found out about coinbase vaults recently.  You obviously are completely against this right?  For some reason i think this is very good idea because i read you could whitelist addresses etc.  And thus you dont need to ever remember your seed or write it down. 


Also as long as you submit your documents, coinbase more often than not would reactivate your account.

[Pmalek]

I mean... if you have three separate emails that you used... or you create them... wouldn't you say its kind of hard to forget your email if say two of them you use you been using for years?  Hard to forget those emails don't you agree?  Of course you have to remember one new email.  But yea higher chance of data loss this way etc.

Do you think that one day you will get old and forgetful and your memory might not be as good as it is now? People get Alzheimer's disease or have traffic accidents where they lose their memory. You are coming up with all these ridiculous scenarios of someone stealing your coins or you storing them in various safety deposit boxes, but have you considered the consequences of a drunk driver hitting you with his car while you cross the road? What happens with your memory then? Or if you die. How will your heirs know your passwords without a paper copy? 

Well that does seem good for someone who has a mobile lifestyle... you have to agree on that right?  I mean... look at those ppl who travel a lot and use crypto for everything.  Storing it in cloud would make sense since they have it anywhere they go without losing a paper... but yea online risk is very high.

What is it exactly that you want us to say? It feels like you are looking for recognition that your way of doing things is good and the recommendations being thrown your way are just walls of text that shouldn't be considered.

I also found out about coinbase vaults recently.  You obviously are completely against this right?  For some reason i think this is very good idea because i read you could whitelist addresses etc.  And thus you dont need to ever remember your seed or write it down.

Whitelisting addresses makes it safe to store coins on a centralized exchange? You really don't understand the basics of financial freedom or being in true possession of your money. 

Also as long as you submit your documents, coinbase more often than not would reactivate your account.

If more often than not is fine with you, what are you waiting for? Give them everything.

[HCP]

But the fact is for you to say almost every single way of storing your seed... you could think of at least 5 bad things about it... makes it really tough.

Which is why I have said multiple times... figure out what you're comfortable with and do it.

Every single way of storing your seed/passphrase has some sort of risk involved. You will not find a 100% safe way of doing it. It's just not possible. So, if you think having 3 emails/3 passwords etc works for you... then go for it.

[jerry0]

I'm well aware of something going wrong.  Whether you forget it or something happens and lose your memory. 



So that is why i thought putting seeds broken in two pieces in two separate safe deposit boxes seem to be the best method.  The only main concern is if like the government go and seize your boxes.  Then you are screwed.  I mean with a thief or bank employee... all they going to get is one seed.  They can't do anything with that.  Unless they go after your second seed.  How they going to know that especially a thief?  Now some weird and almost unlikely scenario is if that bank manager/employee finds out you have a safe deposit box at another bank... and their friend or someone they know works at that bank and then tries to get in that box.  But the odds of anything like that is almost remotely impossible.  So its like if the government seizes your things, then you are screwed.



I get what you mean with whitelisting addresses not giving you financial freedom.



Well i did notice on reddit on coinbase, tons of people everyday seem to file complaints and complain they are hacked.  I had no idea of this.  Did any of you aware of this?  Literally, theres complaints everyday of accounts getting hacked.  In those cases, all the customers are screwed right since its not coinbase fault but the customers negligence?



Well a consideration I thought was if you want to store your coins long term in exchange, you could do it with coinbase and their vaults.  That way if anything happens, i believe you have up to two days or so to do something about it because with vaults on coinbase, you can't withdraw for two days and they do more security checks etc.

[HCP]

... blah blah blah ignoring answers being given...

... more blah blah blah ignoring answer being given...

... So, if you think having 3 emails/3 passwords etc works for you... then go for it.

[dkbit98]

This topic has nothing to do with 25th Word in Nano Ledger S anymore...
I see no other solution but to report jerry0's post because of repeated burst posting, making consecutive posts, repeated spamming with same questions, thread hijacking, and you can find more information here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5336433.0

[Pmalek]

Well i did notice on reddit on coinbase, tons of people everyday seem to file complaints and complain they are hacked.  I had no idea of this.  Did any of you aware of this?  Literally, theres complaints everyday of accounts getting hacked.  In those cases, all the customers are screwed right since its not coinbase fault but the customers negligence?

And tomorrow, one of those complaints could be yours for failing to understand anything people have told you in the last 3-4 years.

To wrap up:
The best thing for you jerry0, is to keep your coins on Coinbase.
For all other beginners reading this thread, don't be like jerry. You know what to do.   

[jerry0]

Ok so this topic has now went off topic since it was about the 25th word.


So in summary, don't do this unless you are for sure you know what you are doing right?  I did read someone on reddit mention when they restored their seed... and then their seed with the 25th word, it somehow showed that account as not hidden but like another account under the regular pin and people said you must have created another account under the regular pin and not under the 25th word.


I know people say the more you complicate things, the more things can go wrong etc.  If I had an extra nano ledger s with me now, i would definitely test this..  But having one device, im concerned something can go wrong etc.

[jerry0]

I got to ask this.


But what percentage of nano ledger s or trezor wallets are not accessible because the user forgot the 25th Word?  I got to assume this happens much more than talked about?



But the big difference is even if you forget your 25th Word, well you have as many tries as possible right?  I remember that story of a guy who forgot his passphrase or pin but then only had like three tries remaining.  Or if someone set up a 25th Word but somehow messed the process up somehow?

[Rath_]

But what percentage of nano ledger s or trezor wallets are not accessible because the user forgot the 25th Word?  I got to assume this happens much more than talked about?

10%, 25%, 75%, 100%... maybe 200%? Who knows?

But the big difference is even if you forget your 25th Word, well you have as many tries as possible right?

Yes. If you have your seed then you can even use third-party software (btcrecover) to guess the lost passphrase. It could take a lot of time, though.

I remember that story of a guy who forgot his passphrase or pin but then only had like three tries remaining.

Trezor devices reset after 16 invalid PIN attempts. Every time you enter a wrong PIN, the delay between attempts increases twofold. Ledger devices reset after 3 invalid attempts and there is no delay.

[Lucius]

I remember that story of a guy who forgot his passphrase or pin but then only had like three tries remaining.

Don’t confuse some other things you read with hardware wallets, because the man you’re probably referring to wasn’t using Nano S, but IronKey storage that automatically encrypts itself after 10 failed attempts. If you are already so afraid that you will forget your passphrase, do not use this option - it is intended only for experienced users.

[dkbit98]

Oh no... Jerry is back with his 1001 new questions and now he wants to see exact percentage of people who ''forgot'' their passphrase  

Instead of remembering 25th word and depending on such fragile thing as human memory, it is much easier and better to write passphrase and make backup SEPARATLY from your seed words.
Than again, you can always forget where you stored your seed words and passphrase, your wallet, car keys and everything else.

[xenon131]

I got to ask this.


But the big difference is even if you forget your 25th Word, well you have as many tries as possible right?  I remember that story of a guy who forgot his passphrase or pin but then only had like three tries remaining.  Or if someone set up a 25th Word but somehow messed the process up somehow?

 Pay attention to derivation path.

[HCP]

By and large, using ^{iancoleman  bip39 tool} offline you may drill your 25h word 365x24x7 in the course of all your live without any  consequences.

That is possibly one of the worst ways you could attempt to bruteforce a BIP39 passphrase.

But the big difference is even if you forget your 25th Word, well you have as many tries as possible right?  I remember that story of a guy who forgot his passphrase or pin but then only had like three tries remaining.  Or if someone set up a 25th Word but somehow messed the process up somehow?

Correct... you're probably thinking of the guy who lost the PIN to his Trezor... and the wait time was growing exponentially: https://www.wired.com/story/i-forgot-my-pin-an-epic-tale-of-losing-dollar30000-in-bitcoin/


Device PINs are often set to wipe the device (ie. Ledger), increase the wait time (Trezor, older Coldcards) or even brick the device completely (new Coldcards).

However, the BIP39 passphrase is a completely different mechanism... and there is no such thing as an "invalid" BIP39 passphrase, as anything you enter will generate a valid seed, so it's impossible for a device to detect if you've used the wrong passphrase.

[Pmalek]

But what percentage of nano ledger s or trezor wallets are not accessible because the user forgot the 25th Word?  I got to assume this happens much more than talked about?

What percentage of women like men wearing while polo shirts? No one keeps track of stuff like that. And you said it yourself, it probably happens more often than what is publicly known, so even if we had a percentage for you, it wouldn't be accurate.

In the month that you were gone, have you still not made up your mind about whether or not to add a passphrase? Since you are sticking to your own methods of storing your recovery phrase in password managers and digital storage options, what's the point in considering passphrases?

Here is a percentage question for you. What is the chance that you will adopt any of the advice and knowledge people give you? 1%, 5%, more?   

[jerry0]

Well I didn't use this extra word because im concerned of something wrong happening.  When i check reddit, i see many people mention how they can't access their wallet and either that extra word is incorrect.. or it ws correct but then it showed no coins on it.


Again most people agree this is an advanced feature and should only be used if you know what you are doing right?  And again if you were to do this... its preferable to do this with having two nano ledger s right? 



When i asked about this a while back, i mentioned how i kept btc in my nano ledger s.  And i wanted to do this extra word but if i do this, i need to send the majority of my coins from my current wallet to the new hidden wallet.  And someone mentioned you could still do this... just make sure your seed is correct and you have it.  But when you do this, don't you still need to put wrong pin three times to reset it?  So when you create a new wallet and get a new seed, then create a passphrase, then reset it and input the new seed to make sure it works.  Then send tiny amount of btc to both of these new wallets... the new wallet and hidden.  But before you do this, you need to input your old seed back into your nano ledger s to send it.  But dont you need to make sure you copy your new btc address and new hidden btc address on your computer... and then you need to copy/paste that seed into it?



Then once it shows the tiny amount of btc in both the new wallet and new hidden wallet... then send the majority of your coins to the new hidden wallet?



It seems like there could be easily an error here if you trying to do this with just one nano ledger s... assuming you have your coins stored there right now?  Because you need to reset devices multiple times during this process?

[o_e_l_e_o]

When i check reddit, i see many people mention how they can't access their wallet and either that extra word is incorrect.. or it ws correct but then it showed no coins on it.

If their passphrase is incorrect, then that is their fault for not backing it up properly. If their passphrase is "correct" but restores the wrong wallet, then it is actually incorrect and again it is their fault for not backing it up properly. There are no known cases of the correct seed phrase and the correct passphrase generating the wrong wallet.

And again if you were to do this... its preferable to do this with having two nano ledger s right?

There is absolutely no need to have two hardware devices to use a passphrase. On the Ledger Nano you are already using, simply navigate to Settings -> Passphrase -> Set temporary, and choose and confirm a passphrase. Hey presto, you have access to passphrased wallets. If you want to go back to your main wallets, simply disconnect and reconnect your device and enter your usual PIN. There is no risk to your main wallets by using a passphrase as long as you follow the instructions properly.

It seems like there could be easily an error here if you trying to do this with just one nano ledger s... assuming you have your coins stored there right now?  Because you need to reset devices multiple times during this process?

So? I've reset and restored hardware wallets multiple times, I've formatted cold storage devices and restored cold wallets multiple times, I've used probably about 20+ different seed phrases and 40+ different passphrases over the years, I've performed countless bitcoin transactions, and I've literally never made a mistake once. Just be meticulous with double or even triple checking everything as you go.

[HCP]

Well I didn't use this extra word because im concerned of something wrong happening.  When i check reddit, i see many people mention how they can't access their wallet and either that extra word is incorrect.. or it ws correct but then it showed no coins on it.

Stop looking at reddit... it's full of "noisy" people who make mistakes and then blame everything and everyone but themselves

I'm not aware of any proven instance of someone having the correct seed and correct passphrase and generating a different wallet. However, I have seen lots of people swearing black and blue that they are "110% sure" that they have the correct seed and correct passphrase and things are not working... and then I've seen a few instances where 6 months later they post that they had a word wrong or found another piece of paper with the actual seed or btcrecover identified a small typo etc.

Again most people agree this is an advanced feature and should only be used if you know what you are doing right?  And again if you were to do this... its preferable to do this with having two nano ledger s right?
...
When i asked about this a while back, i mentioned how i kept btc in my nano ledger s.  And i wanted to do this extra word but if i do this, i need to send the majority of my coins from my current wallet to the new hidden wallet.  And someone mentioned you could still do this... just make sure your seed is correct and you have it.  But when you do this, don't you still need to put wrong pin three times to reset it?  So when you create a new wallet and get a new seed, then create a passphrase, then reset it and input the new seed to make sure it works.

You don't need 2 devices to do this... and you don't need to reset anything... just create a passphrase (either temporary or assigned to 2nd PIN) and you can access the "hidden" wallet... there is no need to reset your device and create a new seed just to create a passphrase.