25th Word in Nano Ledger S

[jerry0]

So I heard a while back you could add a 25th word or phrase to your nano ledger s.  I also heard this could be done in electrum with an additional word.



I'm curious but has anyone here done this?  I looked at ledger site and apparently there are very little limitations to it... said it could be mix of letters, numbers and characters... and max is 100 characters.  It could be capital or lowercase as well?



I had thought the last word you add had to be from that 2000+ word list which wouldn't even make it that secure since if someone has your seed, they could type the last word for every single word in the word list and get there.



Now this seems unbelievable because wouldn't this provide you as much security as you can?  So let say someone has access to your whole seed on nano ledger s.   If you put in another word, aren't they basically screwed them almost unless you pick a poor password?  



Example imagine your word/paraphrase was like


dogwenttotheotherside

catwenttoeatsomechipsagain9

ieatchipswithsoda



Now if someone has your seed, and then need to crack the last word... wouldn't that be very hard?  


Now could I actually add a 25th Word right now to my nano ledger s?  But im concerned about making a mistake though... but its simple right?  Or I would need a completely new seed to do this?


Because if I could... then wouldn't your security be very strong then even if someone found your seed?  Obviously you need to make sure you remember your last word.  

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[Rath_]

I'm curious but has anyone here done this? [...] It could be capital or lowercase as well?

Yes, you can use both capital and small letters. Quite a few people here use passphrases.

Now if someone has your seed, and then need to crack the last word... wouldn't that be very hard?

That's the whole point. In fact, it is impossible to tell if you are using a passphrase. You could leave some small part of your funds on the non-passphrase protected account to mislead potential attacker.

Now could I actually add a 25th Word right now to my nano ledger s?  But im concerned about making a mistake though... but its simple right?  Or I would need a completely new seed to do this?

You don't need a new seed to set up a passphrase. Here's a guide for Ledger Nano S. You can either enter the passphrase every time you connect your device or attach it to a separate PIN. If you ever need to recover your coins using, for example, Electrum, you will have to enter your passphrase as an additional word of your seed; not your PIN. The additional PIN is just for the convenience.

[hosseinimr93]

In addition to the extra layer of security that can be provided using custom words, one of their uses is that, you can make multiple wallets using a single seed phrase.
If you need multiple wallets, you don't have to keep one seed phrase for each of your wallets. Instead of having multiple seed phrases, you can have a single seed phrase and multiple passphrases.
(Credits for the idea goes to Abdussamad.)

[jerry0]

Okay so do most ppl also have two pins then?

I want to do the 25th Word with my current seed at the moment.  Best way to do this?  Do i want two pins or not?

[Rath_]

Okay so do most ppl also have two pins then?

Probably. It's more convenient. It's a pain to enter a complex passphrase on such a small device.

I want to do the 25th Word with my current seed at the moment.  Best way to do this?  Do i want two pins or not?

The passphrase will be stored in the Secure Element just like your private keys if you decide to use the secondary PIN. If you are comfortable with that then go for it.

[bob123]

Okay so do most ppl also have two pins then?

I guess the majority doesn't even know that this feature exists.

I want to do the 25th Word with my current seed at the moment.  Best way to do this?  Do i want two pins or not?

Check out the BIP39 Github page, especially the part about the passphrase.
You need to decide for yourself whether you want to use it.

It definitely adds another layer of security.

The "best way" do to this, would be to go to ledger.com and check their FAQ on how to set it up.
Or google it, there are tons of tutorials available.

[Lucius]

The "best way" do to this, would be to go to ledger.com and check their FAQ on how to set it up.
Or google it, there are tons of tutorials available.

Considering the way jerry0 approaches things like this, I would advise him not to play with something so sensitive, because after all, this feature is for more experienced users who don’t need a week to insert 24 words into their new hardware wallet. After all, in addition to additional seed protection, this method is important for those who want to protect themselves in the event of a physical attack.

Set up a passphrase to add a layer of security to your crypto assets. This option is only recommended for advanced users. Carefully read this article before setting up a passphrase. The recovery phrase and passphrase functionalities enable a range of security setups. You may use them to design the security strategy that meets your personal situation. Please do not overcomplicate things, the best security setup is one that you master and can execute with confidence.

[bitmover]

I want to do the 25th Word with my current seed at the moment.  Best way to do this?  Do i want two pins or not?

It definitely adds another layer of security.

The "best way" do to this, would be to go to ledger.com and check their FAQ on how to set it up.
Or google it, there are tons of tutorials available.

The most important benefit of using a passphrase IMO is defending yourself against a physical/extortion attack.


When you have 2 PINs in your ledger nano, you actually have 2 wallets. You can keep, for example, 70% of your funds in a hidden wallet (the one with the passphrase)

Let's suppose someone tries to extort you "I know you have bitcoins inside this device. Give it to me now".
You just unlock your wallet with your first PIN and give to him your small savings.

[jerry0]

The "best way" do to this, would be to go to ledger.com and check their FAQ on how to set it up.
Or google it, there are tons of tutorials available.

Considering the way jerry0 approaches things like this, I would advise him not to play with something so sensitive, because after all, this feature is for more experienced users who don’t need a week to insert 24 words into their new hardware wallet. After all, in addition to additional seed protection, this method is important for those who want to protect themselves in the event of a physical attack.

Set up a passphrase to add a layer of security to your crypto assets. This option is only recommended for advanced users. Carefully read this article before setting up a passphrase. The recovery phrase and passphrase functionalities enable a range of security setups. You may use them to design the security strategy that meets your personal situation. Please do not overcomplicate things, the best security setup is one that you master and can execute with confidence.

Yea when I do things, I am very careful with it.  So with this... im a bit hesistant because say i type in the 25th Word, well i have to make sure its correct and look at it few times.  Also i can't make it way too long otherwise it would be me looking at it over and over again.


But would a passphrase like the ones i mentioned above be decent though?  I obviously need to make sure its easy to remember.  But if you put a very simple passphrase like the word motorola to make it simple, would it be easy for someone to brute force it assuming they have the whole word list but just missing the passphrase?  Or would someone think wait a minute... this might not even be the seed after typing all the words?  I assume most ppl dont know about this 25th Word right?  Thing is had I set this up sooner like originally, I would feel much more safer in a way.



But in that example with the guy using moon as his passphrase, how safe would his seed be if someone found his entire seed but do not know about his passphrase as moon?


I definitely want this passphrase in addition... but concerned i might mess something up in the process... but then again its hard right? Because you need to type this passphrase twice to confirm it... then it shows you the passphrase before you click okay... so as long as you make sure you remember it... then you are fine right?  Like had i done this originally when i first got the nano ledger s... i would feel much better because I did it correctly... as oppose to now... doing it on an already used ledger. 

[jerry0]

My bigger concern is someone finding the seed.  But yes the physical/extortion thing is very important.



But if you set a 25th Word, do you still need to set up 2 pins though?  For me, the bigger security here is a 25th Word so if someone has my full seed... they still need the 25th Word.



Now if you set up 2 pins, well the one you create from now is going to be the hidden wallet or real wallet?  I was confused watching the video of it but the one with your savings in it... that is the hidden wallet?  The one you would show to a thief would be the spending wallet?  So the pin i have now... that has all my coins.  But the new pin that i create, after its done... it has no coins in it right?  Thus i need to move a tiny bit of coins from my wallet to this small coin wallet... is that correct?  So you need to like manually transfer the btc to it right?  So say you have 2 btc in your main wallet just to make it simple, you probably transfer like 0.2 to it?



So now you have 1.8 btc in your main wallet... and 0.2 btc in your second wallet right?  So then everytime you connect the nano ledger s to your laptop, it first ask for your passphrase.  You enter that.  Then it ask for your pin.  Now you have choice of entering your original pin which has most of your savings... or you choose the other pin which has a small amount of your savings right?  Now here is where im a bit confused.  So whichever pin you enter... you still need to use ledger live to send.  But isn't the issue here ledger live would show your coins in both pin wallets though?  So if you enter the smaller saving wallet... when you go to your accounts in ledger live, it would show all your wallets?  I have to assume it would only show the smaller wallet right?  The same when you log into the bigger saving wallet... it show only the bigger saving wallet and that 1.8 btc only?



Has anyone here done this to their already nano ledger s with their full seed?  I would feel much more comfortable doing this if say i was using a brand new ledger nano s to try... or if i had another nano ledger s to try this on... thus I would create new seed on new nano ledger and then put passphrase and two pins... then send tiny amount of btc from my nano ledger s to it... then test it on another wallet so if mistake, no big deal.



But its very hard to make a mistake here or not?  I do notice it says for advanced users only... but has anyone had a case where they mess this up?  Because im thinking for the passphrase if i do it... i cannot make it so complicated with numbers and making it a simple phrase.  Thoughts on this? 

[Rath_]

But if you set a 25th Word, do you still need to set up 2 pins though?

No, you can enter the passphrase every time manually. See the answer below.

So then everytime you connect the nano ledger s to your laptop, it first ask for your passphrase.

No. Your Ledger won't ask you for a passphrase. If you decide not to use the additional PIN then you will have to follow all steps from the "Option 2" every time you restart your device.

Now if you set up 2 pins, well the one you create from now is going to be the hidden wallet or real wallet?

The second PIN will allow you to access the passphrase protected (hidden) wallet.

So say you have 2 btc in your main wallet just to make it simple, you probably transfer like 0.2 to it?

Why would you transfer only 0.2 BTC to your hidden wallet? If someone gained access to your seed, they would be able to access the remaining 1.8 BTC without any effort.

But isn't the issue here ledger live would show your coins in both pin wallets though?

If you add accounts from both wallets then they will be visible all the time in Ledger Live. You can mitigate this by deleting your hidden account and readding it whenever you need it.

[jerry0]

Okay so do most people just enter a passphrase then and don't deal with the 2 pins to those who do the 25th passphrase?


Oh wait, even if you put a passphrase, when you connect to ledger, it will just ask you for your regular pin right?  Because you only need to enter that passphrase when you enter your entire 24 word seed?  I was confused here.


I thought the 2nd pin was for the second wallet which is created... which would be like the smaller balance wallet...


So when you create a 2nd pin, that is your big balance wallet?  But when you create a 2nd pin, your balance there is 0 right?  So you would send 1.8 btc to this wallet?  Let's assuming 2 btc to make it simple.
When you enter your original pin, you would then see 0.2 btc?


Also when you send btc from one wallet to another, you are paying a fee right like as if you are sending btc to someone else?  Or is this just like a btc transfer between your wallets and there is no fee... like similar to how you have a checking and savings account with your bank?


Okay so when you delete the hidden account in ledger live... then readd it whenever you want.  I assume you only do this when checking the balance only right... then just delete it and now you only see the smaller balance one?

[jerry0]

What would be the safest/best option then?  HCP... do you have any input on this?  I assume you don't do this?


Because having a 25th Word seems like a very good idea.  I mean you could write it down somewhere else like in a notebook and it could be a regular word along with mixing other words.  Say your 25th Word was like


frogisgreen

iliketoswim

windowsandapple



Or something even more simple like


moon

smoke

hollywood



I mean... would you say all of these passphrases would be relatively save even if your whole 24 word seed was known by someone?  Because if they enter it without the 25th passphrase, wouldn't they most likely think the seed is incorrect?  But if they could figure out... okay there is a 25th passphrase, would those passphrases I posted above be safe against brute force?  Obviously the last few words aren't that safe... but I certainly don't think adding numbers and capitalizing certain letters is good because you could easily forget that right.



I really want to do the 25th passphrase now because of this.  Now have most of you done this after having your 24 word seed for a while?  If i had an extra nano ledger s... I would test this... I sort of don't want to try it on my nano ledger s now because of messing up.  But its hard to mess this up right?  Because when you enter a passphrase... you need to type it twice... then the screen makes you confirm... that is the word... so its hard to make a mistake here right?  Thats why I wouldn't want to make the passphrase a long word of words because of this.  



Now if you were to immediately use password recovery app on your nano ledger s... you could enter your entire 24 word seed ... then type in the 25th word passphrase just to confirm right?  If so... that would make me feel much more comfortable on adding this 25th word passphrase.

[bob123]

I mean... would you say all of these passphrases would be relatively save even if your whole 24 word seed was known by someone? 

Not exposing your mnemonic code should be your priority.

Because if they enter it without the 25th passphrase, wouldn't they most likely think the seed is incorrect?

No, the mnemonic code without the passphrase is still a "working" mnemonic code and therefore will create a "normal" wallet.
What a specific person you are thinking of will believe when restoring from your seed without a password, ... we don't know.

But if they could figure out... okay there is a 25th passphrase, would those passphrases I posted above be safe against brute force? 

Google "password security" and similar terms. There are even a few threads here.
Check them out.

Basically, it is a password. So everything which applies to a "normal" password, applies to this passphrase.

[Lucius]

Yea when I do things, I am very careful with it.  So with this... im a bit hesistant because say i type in the 25th Word, well i have to make sure its correct and look at it few times.  Also i can't make it way too long otherwise it would be me looking at it over and over again.

No offense, but there is a big difference between being cautious and being paranoid. I quoted a passage from the Ledger site that tells you very clearly what exactly it is about, and for whom this feature is intended. If you think you need that extra protection then just do it, so how complicated is it to add one word or PIN to an existing seed?

But would a passphrase like the ones i mentioned above be decent though?  I obviously need to make sure its easy to remember.  But if you put a very simple passphrase like the word motorola to make it simple, would it be easy for someone to brute force it assuming they have the whole word list but just missing the passphrase?  Or would someone think wait a minute... this might not even be the seed after typing all the words?  I assume most ppl dont know about this 25th Word right?  Thing is had I set this up sooner like originally, I would feel much more safer in a way.

It is never wise to rely only on your memory, what if an accident happens to you and you lose your memory? Passphrase should be such that it cannot be brute force easily, therefore you will write it down on a piece of paper and save a few copies separately from your seed.

I definitely want this passphrase in addition... but concerned i might mess something up in the process...

The thing is pretty simple, you just need to follow the tutorial from the Ledger site - but if you are not sure what you are doing it is quite normal that you can mess something up.

[jerry0]

I mean... would you say all of these passphrases would be relatively save even if your whole 24 word seed was known by someone? 

Not exposing your mnemonic code should be your priority.

Because if they enter it without the 25th passphrase, wouldn't they most likely think the seed is incorrect?

No, the mnemonic code without the passphrase is still a "working" mnemonic code and therefore will create a "normal" wallet.
What a specific person you are thinking of will believe when restoring from your seed without a password, ... we don't know.

But if they could figure out... okay there is a 25th passphrase, would those passphrases I posted above be safe against brute force? 

Google "password security" and similar terms. There are even a few threads here.
Check them out.

Basically, it is a password. So everything which applies to a "normal" password, applies to this passphrase.

Yea i know not exposing the seed is the number one priority.  But if a thief somehow gets it... then you don't have protection against it if you write it down like one of those cards.   


So if they restore the wallet with the passphrase, it will create a normal wallet... but will it show your coins there or not?  I thought if the enter the seed without the passphrase, it won't work like its not a match.


The issue is the passphrase ppl say do not forget it.  So you can't make something ridiculous with lot of numbers/letters and characters.  Sure you can write it down... i mean you should write it down in case your memory forgets, but don't you agree it shouldn't be a ridiculous word though where you sometimes might forget it?


But a passphrase like say frogger or dutch is probably a horrible passphrase... but something like


doglikeshistreats

catplaydog

georgeisfat


I mean.. those are pretty simple to remember... and better than frogger or dutch right?  Yes i know about the stronger the password the better, but this is something in case you forget.


So its like whats the best security for all this?


Have your seed written down and broken in a few pieces.  Then have that 25th Word in your house as well but write it somewhere a lot different.  I mean imagine a notebook that could be a journal but say you know exactly what page that word is on etc.  Wouldn't that be a good idea?



Again yes I know not exposing the seed is the most important thing.  But I feel like unless you live in a very secured place with security... think like a high rise in the trump towers or something like that... then i feel like theres almost always a risk.  I mean... look at those hollywood celebrities that live in their homes in los angeles and hollywood etc and there are burglaries there.  I mean... those places are rich and gated but somehow these things still happen. 

[Rath_]

Oh wait, even if you put a passphrase, when you connect to ledger, it will just ask you for your regular pin right?  Because you only need to enter that passphrase when you enter your entire 24 word seed?

Your Ledger will ask you only for your PIN. You will have to enter your passphrase manually either every time you use your device if you decide not to use the additional PIN or during wallet recovery in some third-party software (e.g. Electrum). You have already asked a similar question. I am not going to answer it next time.

Also when you send btc from one wallet to another, you are paying a fee right like as if you are sending btc to someone else?

Yes, you need to pay for the transaction.

[jerry0]

Yea when I do things, I am very careful with it.  So with this... im a bit hesistant because say i type in the 25th Word, well i have to make sure its correct and look at it few times.  Also i can't make it way too long otherwise it would be me looking at it over and over again.

No offense, but there is a big difference between being cautious and being paranoid. I quoted a passage from the Ledger site that tells you very clearly what exactly it is about, and for whom this feature is intended. If you think you need that extra protection then just do it, so how complicated is it to add one word or PIN to an existing seed?

But would a passphrase like the ones i mentioned above be decent though?  I obviously need to make sure its easy to remember.  But if you put a very simple passphrase like the word motorola to make it simple, would it be easy for someone to brute force it assuming they have the whole word list but just missing the passphrase?  Or would someone think wait a minute... this might not even be the seed after typing all the words?  I assume most ppl dont know about this 25th Word right?  Thing is had I set this up sooner like originally, I would feel much more safer in a way.

It is never wise to rely only on your memory, what if an accident happens to you and you lose your memory? Passphrase should be such that it cannot be brute force easily, therefore you will write it down on a piece of paper and save a few copies separately from your seed.

I definitely want this passphrase in addition... but concerned i might mess something up in the process...

The thing is pretty simple, you just need to follow the tutorial from the Ledger site - but if you are not sure what you are doing it is quite normal that you can mess something up.

I'm concerned when I add that one word, somehow it would mess up and then if i enter my whole seed again.. then the passphrase, it would reject it.  Because I don't have a another nano ledger s to test this on.  Because if I did, I would do that right now.


But if i were to add the pass phrase now... lets just make it simple and say the passphrase is


georgeisfat



I type it twice and confirm it.  



Now i unplug and plug my ledger back in.  I need to first enter the passphrase... then my pin right?


So once it accepts the passphrase, then the pin... well then now there is no concern since you have your seed and that passphrase just written down right?


Because my thinking was this... okay you put a passphrase to it.  Then you log in and it works and then the pin and it works.  Now... my first thing was... I should go to password recovery app on the nano ledger and type in my seed... then type in the passphrase to confirm it works.  This would be absolutely not necessary right?


But if you were to test your recovery seed a bit after this, you would need to put the seed only... or also the seed and passphrase?




My big concern was something like this.... you create a passphrase.  Type it twice to confirm.  Then it shows you the passphrase and either the ledger s malfunctions somewhere during the process... so you don't even have the chance to log into your ledger with your passphrase and pin to test.  Does that make sense?  Yes that sounds like ridiculous paranoia but I had my nano ledger s go dim months ago and then went bad and it didn't turn on anymore.  So imagine it suddenly went bad during this process.  When you get a new nano ledger s, you not sure if it confirmed the passphrase or not etc or it malfunction during the processing/confirmation part.



Most importantly... when i set up the nano ledger s years ago, I did wrote my seed few times and was careful writing it down.  But I never did a test of the seed to confirm it worked.  So you could imagine how it was like when the ledger didn't work anymore.  And I was also in another country at the time... and my seed was another.


So thats why im very paranoid about this especially when my ledger stopped working.  I mean... wouldn't you worry in my situation?  Thats why i do things very carefully as in paranoia because of this.  Like imagine I do this process while my coins are still there and something like this happens.  Yes i know i have my seed with me... but if a malfunction happens... well is my seed enough?  Or will it need the passphrase?  But it has to be either of these two and can't be anything else right?  Because i worry a malfunction could make something happen that has never happened where the seed... or the seed and that passphrase not work.

[HCP]

You are completely misunderstanding how the passphrase system works with the Ledger Nano S...

By default, when you create a seed, it is already using a "default" passphrase of "mnemonic". It is literally using that string as your passphrase if you leave it empty/don't use one. When you add you own custom "passphrase", it simply appends your custom word to the string "mnemonic"... so, if you chose the passphrase "georgeisfat", behind the scenes, the device is actually using the passphrase "mnemonicgeorgeisfat".

Now, the seed stored in your device does not change, regardless of whether you use a passphrase or not... So, when you unlock your device, it is deriving private keys/addresses using seed+"mnemonic".

What happens when you set a "temporary passphrase" (or assign one to a 2nd PIN), is that the device will simply derive a different set of private keys, as the "stored seed+passphrase" combination has changed.

With a temporary passphrase, as soon as you unplug the device, the temporary passphrase is lost and the device will go back to using seed+"mnemonic" to derive your private keys/addresses again.

If you're using a 2nd PIN, when you unlock the device using PIN#2, the device will then start deriving private keys/addresses using seed+"mnemonicPassphraseProtectedBy2ndPIN"... again, when you unplug the device, it will revert back to the default (assuming you unlock with PIN#1 again).

Also, you don't type the passphrase in twice... you type it in ONCE and it asks you to confirm it on the screen. And if your device were to "malfuction" during the process, it wouldn't matter, because:
a. You wouldn't be able to send coins to the "wrong" or unknown addresses, as the device malfunctioned before you could derive any private keys/addresses
and
2. You could just start the process all over again (using same device and/or new device with same seed+passphrase)

You are worrying about nothing!


Instead of asking all these questions, simply experiment with your device. Plug it in, unlock it, go into "Settings -> Security -> Passphrase -> (scroll right 3 times) -> Set up Passphrase -> Set temporary" and try adding a temporary passphrase. After a while of "processing", you'll get a "passphrase set" message.

You can then try adding a new Bitcoin account in Ledger Live (make sure you use a unique name like 'BTC Passphrase Test') and you'll see it has no balance and different receive addresses etc... if you unplug the device and plug it back it, it'll automatically go back to using your original seed+"mnemonic" again like the temporary passphrase never existed.

And Ledger Live will try and stop you from receiving to wrong "account" as well... if you unplug the device, then unlock it and DON'T set the passphrase and then go into 'BTC Passphrase Test' account and try and click "receive", you'll get an error like this:


It has detected that the private keys/addresses that the device is trying to derive, do not match the private keys/addresses for the account you're trying to use!

[jerry0]

You are completely misunderstanding how the passphrase system works with the Ledger Nano S...

By default, when you create a seed, it is already using a "default" passphrase of "mnemonic". It is literally using that string as your passphrase if you leave it empty/don't use one. When you add you own custom "passphrase", it simply appends your custom word to the string "mnemonic"... so, if you chose the passphrase "georgeisfat", behind the scenes, the device is actually using the passphrase "mnemonicgeorgeisfat".

Now, the seed stored in your device does not change, regardless of whether you use a passphrase or not... So, when you unlock your device, it is deriving private keys/addresses using seed+"mnemonic".

What happens when you set a "temporary passphrase" (or assign one to a 2nd PIN), is that the device will simply derive a different set of private keys, as the "stored seed+passphrase" combination has changed.

With a temporary passphrase, as soon as you unplug the device, the temporary passphrase is lost and the device will go back to using seed+"mnemonic" to derive your private keys/addresses again.

If you're using a 2nd PIN, when you unlock the device using PIN#2, the device will then start deriving private keys/addresses using seed+"mnemonicPassphraseProtectedBy2ndPIN"... again, when you unplug the device, it will revert back to the default (assuming you unlock with PIN#1 again).

Also, you don't type the passphrase in twice... you type it in ONCE and it asks you to confirm it on the screen. And if your device were to "malfuction" during the process, it wouldn't matter, because:
a. You wouldn't be able to send coins to the "wrong" or unknown addresses, as the device malfunctioned before you could derive any private keys/addresses
and
2. You could just start the process all over again (using same device and/or new device with same seed+passphrase)

You are worrying about nothing!


Instead of asking all these questions, simply experiment with your device. Plug it in, unlock it, go into "Settings -> Security -> Passphrase -> (scroll right 3 times) -> Set up Passphrase -> Set temporary" and try adding a temporary passphrase. After a while of "processing", you'll get a "passphrase set" message.

You can then try adding a new Bitcoin account in Ledger Live (make sure you use a unique name like 'BTC Passphrase Test') and you'll see it has no balance and different receive addresses etc... if you unplug the device and plug it back it, it'll automatically go back to using your original seed+"mnemonic" again like the temporary passphrase never existed.

And Ledger Live will try and stop you from receiving to wrong "account" as well... if you unplug the device, then unlock it and DON'T set the passphrase and then go into 'BTC Passphrase Test' account and try and click "receive", you'll get an error like this:


It has detected that the private keys/addresses that the device is trying to derive, do not match the private keys/addresses for the account you're trying to use!

HCP, you know how I am before experimenting something... I need to make sure i know what im doing for sure before i attempt it.



So the 25th passphrase.  Say its georgeisfat... after you enter it.  It ask you to enter it again then it show you the passphrase georgeisfat to confirm right?  


In my example, I do not want to have like a hidden wallet or anything like that as it will complicate things.  And also its been said you going to have to send coins from one wallet to another like a regular transaction, so I don't want to do that.  I had thought you could just send coins from one wallet to another like instantly like if you were moving funds from the same checking account to savings account online.


You say

With a temporary passphrase, as soon as you unplug the device, the temporary passphrase is lost and the device will go back to using seed+"mnemonic" to derive your private keys/addresses again.



So everytime you connect the nano ledger to the laptop after that, it will only ask you for your pin like normal and you have the option of typing the original pin or the new pin you created.  And it will do that everytime right?



But say something happens to your nano ledger s and it doesn't work.  You then get a new nano ledger s.  You then type in your old 24 word seed... but you need to also type that passphrase georgeisfat as the 25th word in order to unlock your coins...  is that correct?



Also that would mean the first time you add the passphrase of georgeisfat...... you could then go to password recovery app on your nano ledger s... type in the 24 word seed to confirm it.. but you also need to add in the 25th word in order to verify your seed and passphrase is correct on the specific nano ledger right?



My confusing came when why you mention passphrase and temporary passphrase?  Do you mean the 25th word would be your passphrase but you could also add a 2nd pin which would then serve as your temporary passphrase?  So you would be either using a passphrase which is your 25th word ... or passphrase and temporary passphrase which is your 25th word and the 2nd pin you choose as a 2nd wallet?

[HCP]

HCP, you know how I am before experimenting something... I need to make sure i know what im doing for sure before i attempt it.

The simple answer is, if you don't actually try and send any coins anywhere... you're not going to break anything and you're not going to lose any coins. Experiment away.

So the 25th passphrase.  Say its georgeisfat... after you enter it.  It ask you to enter it again then it show you the passphrase georgeisfat to confirm right?  

No, as I said above, you enter it ONCE and it displays it onscreen for confirmation.

In my example, I do not want to have like a hidden wallet or anything like that as it will complicate things.  And also its been said you going to have to send coins from one wallet to another like a regular transaction, so I don't want to do that.  I had thought you could just send coins from one wallet to another like instantly like if you were moving funds from the same checking account to savings account online.

Of course it requires a transaction. Sending coins from AddressA to AddressB always requires an on-chain transaction. Always has, always will.

With a temporary passphrase, as soon as you unplug the device, the temporary passphrase is lost and the device will go back to using seed+"mnemonic" to derive your private keys/addresses again.


So everytime you connect the nano ledger to the laptop after that, it will only ask you for your pin like normal and you have the option of typing the original pin or the new pin you created.  And it will do that everytime right?

You have TWO options...

Option 1. Use what Ledger call a "temporary passphrase"... essentially, if you want to use your "passphrase" account, after you have plugged in and unlocked your device, you need to go to "settings -> security -> passphrase" and enter your passphrase.

or

Option 2. Use what Ledger call a "Second PIN"... after you have entered a "temporary passphrase", you can actually assign an additional PIN code (different from your original PIN) to this "temporary passphrase". This means that if you want to use your "passphrase account", you don't need to unlock with the original PIN and then goto settings and then enter your passphrase etc... you can instead simply unlock the device using the second PIN that you assigned to that passphrase and it will automagically unlock the device and configure it to use your "passphrase" account. It's basically a shortcut to one specific passphrase, so you don't have to enter your passphrase over and over etc.

Regardless of which option you choose, every time to plug the device in, it starts up and asks for a PIN... you can put in original PIN or the second PIN if you created one.

But say something happens to your nano ledger s and it doesn't work.  You then get a new nano ledger s.  You then type in your old 24 word seed... but you need to also type that passphrase georgeisfat as the 25th word in order to unlock your coins...  is that correct?

Whenever you want to access the passphrase account, you need seed+passphrase.

Also that would mean the first time you add the passphrase of georgeisfat...... you could then go to password recovery app on your nano ledger s... type in the 24 word seed to confirm it.. but you also need to add in the 25th word in order to verify your seed and passphrase is correct on the specific nano ledger right?

No, that's not what the recovery app is checking. It checks that the seed stored on the device is the seed derived from a particular 24 word seed mnemonic that you enter. It has nothing to do with "25th" words/passphrases.

My confusing came when why you mention passphrase and temporary passphrase?  Do you mean the 25th word would be your passphrase but you could also add a 2nd pin which would then serve as your temporary passphrase?  So you would be either using a passphrase which is your 25th word ... or passphrase and temporary passphrase which is your 25th word and the 2nd pin you choose as a 2nd wallet?

No...

Ledger terminology is a bit confusing... BIP39 Passphrase == What Ledger refer to as a "Temporary Passphrase"... they call it that because as soon as you unplug the device, it's "gone"... and the device will revert back to the default "seed only".

The second PIN is just a shortcut way to set the passphrase... You configure a "temporary passphrase" in the settings, then assign a PIN to it (different from your "normal" PIN)... and when you unlock using 2nd PIN, it configures the device to use "seed+temporary passphrase". Again, as soon as device is unplugged, it will revert back to "seed only".

[jerry0]

HCP thanks for clarifying that.  Yes ledger word choice is very confusing with the temporary passphrase.


So with those two choices, which one would you suggest me then?  I assume you never bothered with this right?


One thing that I find not good about this is from reading the instructions on this... is one of the methods, they won't confirm the 25th word on the screen... is that correct?  Or do both methods not show your 25th word passphrase? 


They also mentioned... if you were to use the password recovery app in ledger and enter your 24 word seed, you cannot put the 25th word passphrase to confirm both the seed and the passphrase is correct RIGHT?  Whereas if you dont have that passphrase, you can enter your 24 word seed and it would show it with a check mark.  You don't find bad?


I read someone else mentioned they don't like the way ledger set this up.  They said... why can't nano ledger set it up where you have to put in a 25th word passphrase in addition to the seed... and thats it?  So everytime you plug in your nano ledger s... well its normal putting in your pin.  But if you were to restore your seed on a new nano ledger s... then yo have to put your 24 word seed and the 25th word passphrase in order to access your wallet.  Wouldn't you agree that would be the more popular way?  Because that is why i got confused the whole time.  I thought why would there be another hidden wallet because of the 25th word passphrase?  Why can't they just make it where adding the 25th word passphrase would mean your main wallet is there.  Does that make sense?


So basically whichever method you use... method one or two... you still going to have to transfer btc since you are transferring from your main wallet to the hidden wallet (wallet with majority coins) right?

[HCP]

One thing that I find not good about this is from reading the instructions on this... is one of the methods, they won't confirm the 25th word on the screen... is that correct?  Or do both methods not show your 25th word passphrase? 

For the third time... When you setup the "temporary passphrase", you type it in... THEN IT IS DISPLAYED ON THE SCREEN AND YOU ARE ASKED TO CONFIRM IT

You can then, if you want, set up a 2nd pin... if you then use the 2nd PIN, you don't need to enter the passphrase to see your passphrase wallet, it just automatically goes there.

They also mentioned... if you were to use the password recovery app in ledger and enter your 24 word seed, you cannot put the 25th word passphrase to confirm both the seed and the passphrase is correct RIGHT?  Whereas if you dont have that passphrase, you can enter your 24 word seed and it would show it with a check mark.  You don't find bad?

All the check app does is check that the 24 word seed mnemonic that you enter, generates the SAME seed that is stored in the device. Also, ANY passphrase that you enter, is technically "valid" and will successfully create a wallet...

PassWord1
PASSWord1
pAsswoRd1
1dorwssap
fklsadgeqrwtio3489t3yjeklthnakjbgvkjmnq34t7238y5346y45uy/W$t

All of those are "valid" passphrases and will successfully generate a wallet (with a valid seed mnemonic)... so quite what you expect the recovery app to be able to check with seed+passphrase I don't know? The passphrase is not stored in the device, so there is simply nothing to check regarding passphrases with the recovery check app.

Why can't they just make it where adding the 25th word passphrase would mean your main wallet is there.

Essentially, the 2nd PIN is exactly that method... put in 24 word seed mnemonic, add "Temporary Passphrase/25th word", set 2nd PIN.... Then, ALWAYS log in with 2nd PIN as if it was ordinary PIN... and there you go, you ALWAYS log in with 24 words+passphrase.... you just don't need to enter the passphrase.

The reason it wasn't the default option was that BIP39 passphrases are OPTIONAL (and not all wallets even support using them)... and also because entering a "decent" sized passphrase back in the "old days" took a LONG time and was very tedious if it had 10+ chars and used UPPER/lower/numb3r5/symb@!s etc. which would mean either:

1. it would just be a pain in the arse to unlock the device and see your wallet
or
2. users would choose stupidly easy to enter passphrases (which kind of defeats the purpose of having the passphrase in the first place)

[jerry0]

One thing that I find not good about this is from reading the instructions on this... is one of the methods, they won't confirm the 25th word on the screen... is that correct?  Or do both methods not show your 25th word passphrase? 

For the third time... When you setup the "temporary passphrase", you type it in... THEN IT IS DISPLAYED ON THE SCREEN AND YOU ARE ASKED TO CONFIRM IT

You can then, if you want, set up a 2nd pin... if you then use the 2nd PIN, you don't need to enter the passphrase to see your passphrase wallet, it just automatically goes there.

They also mentioned... if you were to use the password recovery app in ledger and enter your 24 word seed, you cannot put the 25th word passphrase to confirm both the seed and the passphrase is correct RIGHT?  Whereas if you dont have that passphrase, you can enter your 24 word seed and it would show it with a check mark.  You don't find bad?

All the check app does is check that the 24 word seed mnemonic that you enter, generates the SAME seed that is stored in the device. Also, ANY passphrase that you enter, is technically "valid" and will successfully create a wallet...

PassWord1
PASSWord1
pAsswoRd1
1dorwssap
fklsadgeqrwtio3489t3yjeklthnakjbgvkjmnq34t7238y5346y45uy/W$t

All of those are "valid" passphrases and will successfully generate a wallet (with a valid seed mnemonic)... so quite what you expect the recovery app to be able to check with seed+passphrase I don't know? The passphrase is not stored in the device, so there is simply nothing to check regarding passphrases with the recovery check app.

Why can't they just make it where adding the 25th word passphrase would mean your main wallet is there.

Essentially, the 2nd PIN is exactly that method... put in 24 word seed mnemonic, add "Temporary Passphrase/25th word", set 2nd PIN.... Then, ALWAYS log in with 2nd PIN as if it was ordinary PIN... and there you go, you ALWAYS log in with 24 words+passphrase.... you just don't need to enter the passphrase.

The reason it wasn't the default option was that BIP39 passphrases are OPTIONAL (and not all wallets even support using them)... and also because entering a "decent" sized passphrase back in the "old days" took a LONG time and was very tedious if it had 10+ chars and used UPPER/lower/numb3r5/symb@!s etc. which would mean either:

1. it would just be a pain in the arse to unlock the device and see your wallet
or
2. users would choose stupidly easy to enter passphrases (which kind of defeats the purpose of having the passphrase in the first place)

Hey thanks all that clarification. 


So you don't feel the need for this right?


So you agree I should do the second pin method then?

[jerry0]

Also do others here using the 25th Word ?  I gotta assume like less than 20 percent of ppl probably use it ... many don't even know about it right?

[o_e_l_e_o]

Not enough people use it, in my opinion. It's a powerful tool which can increase your security (in that if your seed phrase is compromised you don't immediately lose all your coins, and it is the only real way to have plausible deniability with a hardware wallet), and it can also improve your privacy (by allowing you to create entirely separate wallets for different purposes and therefore avoid the risk of mixing UTXOs together and linking different addresses/bitcoin). Using passphrases can also help to protect against some vulnerabilities, such as the recently disclosed one regarding sending bitcoin transactions when interacting with an altcoin wallet on Ledger devices (now patched). If the altcoin wallet was behind its own passphrase, then the vulnerability was impossible to exploit.

So yes, not only do I use passphrases, but I use multiple different passphrases to create multiple different wallets from the same seed phrase.

[HCP]

Not to mention the hardware vulnerability in the Trezor devices that essentially require you to use passphrases in case you lose your device or it gets stolen, as the seed mnemonic can be extracted from the device relatively easily. So unless you use a passphrase, your coins are effectively "gone" if someone gets hold of your device

As for the Ledger, the "easiest" setup, in my opinion, is the 2nd PIN. It's relatively secure as a thief only gets three chances to guess either your normal PIN or 2nd PIN before the device wipes itself. Given you can use up to an 8 digit PIN (min 4 digits), the odds of them doing that are relatively small.

It does mean using multiple passphrases with the Ledger Nano S is a bit of a hassle, as you can only have one "2nd PIN", so if you use more than one passphrase the only way to access subsequent passphrases is with the "Temporary Passphrase" system, and entering the passphrase every time you want to access a passphrase account that isn't the one attached to the 2nd PIN. Still, at least the option is available.

For the reasons o_e_l_e_o has mentioned, I would also recommend using the 2nd PIN system that Ledger provides...

[Lucius]

Also do others here using the 25th Word ?  I gotta assume like less than 20 percent of ppl probably use it ... many don't even know about it right?

Your assumption makes no sense because it is completely impossible to know how many HW users know about this feature, and how many of them would even decide to use this option. Manufacturers definitely do not recommend this feature for people who are not fully aware of what it is actually about, all for the reason of preventing users from locking their funds irretrievably.

There have already been cases where users have used this option and forgotten passphrases, so no matter they have a perfectly correct seed, they actually have one big nothing. I doubt that the OP will be a little closer to understanding even after a hundred pages of explanations - he asked the same questions more than a year ago.

Did you have to do this when you initialize the nano ledger s or you could do this anytime afterwards?  Example i set up my nano ledger s a while back and wrote down the 24 word seed. 
Can i add a 25th word now?   Could i do this without having access to my 24 word seed?  My 24 word seed is in another location, not here so i don't have access to it.

[jerry0]

Also do others here using the 25th Word ?  I gotta assume like less than 20 percent of ppl probably use it ... many don't even know about it right?

Your assumption makes no sense because it is completely impossible to know how many HW users know about this feature, and how many of them would even decide to use this option. Manufacturers definitely do not recommend this feature for people who are not fully aware of what it is actually about, all for the reason of preventing users from locking their funds irretrievably.

There have already been cases where users have used this option and forgotten passphrases, so no matter they have a perfectly correct seed, they actually have one big nothing. I doubt that the OP will be a little closer to understanding even after a hundred pages of explanations - he asked the same questions more than a year ago.

Did you have to do this when you initialize the nano ledger s or you could do this anytime afterwards?  Example i set up my nano ledger s a while back and wrote down the 24 word seed. 
Can i add a 25th word now?   Could i do this without having access to my 24 word seed?  My 24 word seed is in another location, not here so i don't have access to it.

Well i heard of this 25th Word  a while back but I never attempted it because I didn't even think about it at the time... but most importantly that seems like another step in the process which I sort of what to avoid.


You say there has been users who used this option and forgotten the passphrases.  Yea that will definitely happen.  The thing is i would also write the passphrase down as well as backup... and put it a bit somewhere else from the 24 word seed.  But my concern is setting the 25th Word process.  I mean you type it, then make sure you remember and write it down on paper. 


But when you then try to type in your seed again if something happens to your ledger... say it reset or you need to get a new one... you would then need to type the 24 word seed... and then the  2nd pin you created?  Or the 24 word seed, then the passphrase and then the 2nd pin?


Also no matter which of the teo methods you choose... HCP recommend the pin option... when you set up the second pin, well you need to then move the bulk of your coins to the 2nd pin right?  Thus imagine you set this all up and had 2 btc in your nano ledger s.  You set passphrase, then second pin... say its 888888 as your second pin.  Say your original pin was 555555.


Then you send the say 90 percent of your btc in the nano ledger s... so 1.8 btc from the original address to the new address right? 




Then you have 0.2 btc in your current address with pin 555555
Then you have 1.8 btc in your second address with pin 888888


So everytime you connect ledger s to laptop, you need to enter one of these two pins, to access either the smaller or bigger balance btc right?  Thus no more passphrase seeded to type each type?  But you need the passphrase when you try to access your coins in a new ledger right when you enter the whole 24 word seed and also 25th Word?  And once you do that... you enter either of the pins to access either the smaller or bigger wallet?


Is that correct?

[o_e_l_e_o]

So everytime you connect ledger s to laptop, you need to enter one of these two pins, to access either the smaller or bigger balance btc right?  Thus no more passphrase seeded to type each type?  But you need the passphrase when you try to access your coins in a new ledger right when you enter the whole 24 word seed and also 25th Word? 

This is essentially correct. The passphrase is intrinsically linked to the addresses you generate, just the same as your seed phrase. You need both to recover the coins in the passphrased wallet. If you lose either the seed phrase or the passphrase, you cannot recover the passphrased wallet.

The PIN is entirely stored on the Ledger and is device specific. The PIN is not used to generate your wallets, only to unlock your Ledger device. If you recover the wallets to a different Ledger device, you do not need to enter your previous PINs, and when you set up new PINs you can either pick the same ones as before or totally different ones.

[jerry0]

So everytime you connect ledger s to laptop, you need to enter one of these two pins, to access either the smaller or bigger balance btc right?  Thus no more passphrase seeded to type each type?  But you need the passphrase when you try to access your coins in a new ledger right when you enter the whole 24 word seed and also 25th Word? 

This is essentially correct. The passphrase is intrinsically linked to the addresses you generate, just the same as your seed phrase. You need both to recover the coins in the passphrased wallet. If you lose either the seed phrase or the passphrase, you cannot recover the passphrased wallet.

The PIN is entirely stored on the Ledger and is device specific. The PIN is not used to generate your wallets, only to unlock your Ledger device. If you recover the wallets to a different Ledger device, you do not need to enter your previous PINs, and when you set up new PINs you can either pick the same ones as before or totally different ones.

Okay but don't you find it a bit not good that you can't enter your seed and also the 25th Word to the recovery app to confirm everything is correct?  That seems to be one thing I'm not a fan of.


Also, anyone that creates this wallet, they then sent the majority of the coins from their main wallet to the new hidden wallet right?  Like what I posted in the bolded part?  Thus with say 2btc balance, u send the say 90 percent of your 2 btc in the nano ledger s... so 1.8 btc from the original address to the new address right?  Now you have 0.2 btc in your main wallet and 1.8 btc in the hidden wallet?


But if someone got your 24 word seed and 25th Word, they have access to both main wallet and hidden wallet right?  Since if the are restoring the entire seed with that 25th Word, the 2nd pin is not needed for them?

[HCP]

But when you then try to type in your seed again if something happens to your ledger... say it reset or you need to get a new one... you would then need to type the 24 word seed... and then the  2nd pin you created?  

No. That won't work... the new device/other wallet will have no knowledge of your 2nd PIN. It will only ever be valid on the device it was created on.

Or the 24 word seed, then the passphrase and then the 2nd pin?

Correct. To recover a "passphrase account" on your Ledger, you have to put in the 24 word seed to restore your device... then enter the "temporary passphrase" (and then optionally assign the 2nd PIN to that passphrase again).

Okay but don't you find it a bit not good that you can't enter your seed and also the 25th Word to the recovery app to confirm everything is correct?  That seems to be one thing I'm not a fan of.

Again, it's not necessary... You can check it yourself by simply checking the address/account when you setup the temporary passphrase. It's also technically not possible for that app to check if your passphrase is correct... because it's not stored on the device, so there isn't anything to check against... But because you can check it yourself, it's not a big deal.

Also, anyone that creates this wallet, they then sent the majority of the coins from their main wallet to the new hidden wallet right?  Like what I posted in the bolded part?  Thus with say 2btc balance, u send the say 90 percent of your 2 btc in the nano ledger s... so 1.8 btc from the original address to the new address right?  Now you have 0.2 btc in your main wallet and 1.8 btc in the hidden wallet?

It's like asking people how they store their seeds or what the best bitcoin wallet is... it's different for everyone. Some people probably do this, some probably don't... some probably don't even use the Passphrase option. But the main "use-case" that is advertised for the passphrase option is the concept of the hidden wallet holding most of your funds.

But if someone got your 24 word seed and 25th Word, they have access to both main wallet and hidden wallet right?  Since if the are restoring the entire seed with that 25th Word, the 2nd pin is not needed for them?

Correct, the PIN's are just a method to unlock that specific device. Anyone who has your seed mnemonic and passphrase(s) has access to all the wallets.




Still not sure why you haven't simply tried it out?

Create a passphrase, check addresses... add 2nd PIN... disconnect/reconnect... unlock with 2nd PIN, check that it still works with the passphrase account/addresses... Then wipe your device and try restoring. If you attempt to unlock with 2nd PIN now, you'll get "invalid PIN" message as it no longer exists (just like it wouldn't on any new device). Then recreate passphrase and assign 2nd PIN.

I can guarantee that your understanding of how this all works will be 100% better if you "just do it", rather than asking the same questions over and over.

If you have access to your seed mnemonic (and you don't actually send any coins to any passphrase account until you're satisfied you have it set up correctly), you're not in any danger of losing any coins or breaking the device.

[bob123]

Okay but don't you find it a bit not good that you can't enter your seed and also the 25th Word to the recovery app to confirm everything is correct?  That seems to be one thing I'm not a fan of.

In the beginning, there was no way to verify your mnemonic code other than wiping your device or using something else to derive the keys. There was no application for that.
And this was fine for the majority of people. Then, after quite a lot of people began to lose coins because they didn't write down the correct mnemonic, ledger implemented that application.

While it might be advantageous, i don't think it is necessary.
Writing down and checking a single password multiple times should be fine, not?

Also, anyone that creates this wallet, they then sent the majority of the coins from their main wallet to the new hidden wallet right?  Like what I posted in the bolded part?  Thus with say 2btc balance, u send the say 90 percent of your 2 btc in the nano ledger s... so 1.8 btc from the original address to the new address right?  Now you have 0.2 btc in your main wallet and 1.8 btc in the hidden wallet?

That's what some people do for plausible deniability reasons.

But if someone got your 24 word seed and 25th Word, they have access to both main wallet and hidden wallet right?  Since if the are restoring the entire seed with that 25th Word, the 2nd pin is not needed for them?

The passphrase for the mnemonic code is protocol-specific (completely independent from the device).
The "pin" is device-specific, it is completely independent from the key derivation.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Okay but don't you find it a bit not good that you can't enter your seed and also the 25th Word to the recovery app to confirm everything is correct?  That seems to be one thing I'm not a fan of.

I have never once used the seed phrase recovery app. When I first set up my Ledger, I initialized it, wrote down the seed phrase, made a note of the first address, wiped it, set it up again with the seed I had written down, and checked the first address matched. It did, so I was happy I had backed up my seed phrase correctly.

The first time I want to use a new passphrase, I enter it as a temporary passphrase, make a note of the first address, disconnect then reconnect my Ledger, attach the passphrase a second time, and check the first address matches. If it does, I'm happy I have entered the passphrase correctly. Ledger devices also show you the passphrase you have entered before confirming it, so you can check for typos.

Thus with say 2btc balance, u send the say 90 percent of your 2 btc in the nano ledger s... so 1.8 btc from the original address to the new address right?  Now you have 0.2 btc in your main wallet and 1.8 btc in the hidden wallet?

That's what some people do for plausible deniability reasons.

I would suggest that this provides very little in the way of plausible deniability.

If you are coerced to handing over your seed phrase, and an attacker opens your wallet and sees that you have made a single transaction of 90% of your funds to another address, and those funds have not moved from that other address, then it is reasonable for them to assume that those funds have moved to another wallet you control. They won't know if it is a passphrased wallet or a separate wallet altogether, but that is essentially irrelevant if they are coercing you to hand over the details of it. Plausible deniability relies on there being no trace of your secondary (or tertiary, or so on) wallets, and that includes blockchain evidence. If you want to move 90% of your coins to a hidden wallet, then you need to do so in multiple smaller transactions over time which have been mixed or coinjoined along the way so the final destination of each transaction is obscured.

[jerry0]

Okay so I will want to do this pretty soon as I'm planning to head back to the US for a bit.  Last time when I was in the US, I didn't want to attempt this since i was going abroad again since Im abroad almost all year etc.  And didn't want an issue if anything goes wrong with it.



Now would you say its foolish for me to buy another nano ledger s wallet just for this purpose?  I really don't want to attempt this on my current nano ledger s where i have all my coins.  I mean if i were to do this on my current nano ledger s, first thing to do is obviously make sure you have you seed... and enter it in the app in the ledger s just to make sure it confirms before you try this right?



I kind of only feel safe doing this on another nano ledger s.  For example i buy a new ledger s... then i send say 0.005 btc to it from my current nano ledger s.  Then when i do that, i reset the new device by inputting pin wrong three times on the new device and enter my new ledger s seed in new device to make sure it works and then it restores the 0.005 btc.  Then once i do that, create a second wallet with a second pin and a passphrase. 


Let just say i make the pin for the new nano ledger s is


800500



Now let say the new pin and passphrase i create for the new wallet on it would be


90859

frogishungry



Then once i do that, I send say 0.004 btc from the new ledger s to the new wallet i created on the new ledger s.  Then once that happens, the new wallet will have around 0.004btc and the main wallet will have 0.00l btc - whatever fees to send it right?


The reason why i used 0.005 btc as the test amount even though that is few hundred dollar is because i read fess are very expensive now to send btc... its around twenty dollars right at least now to send?  So trying this with a small test amount would have issues then right since well... you can't test sending 5 dollars to another wallet since fees now are at least twenty dollars?



Also someone mentioned, you can't just send 90% from your main btc wallet to the hidden one in one transaction because it would draw attention.  I mean unless the thief has access to your ledger live history or they are checking your balance while you are there, then wouldn't that be safe?  But i do agree with your statement that imagine someone had a lot of btc... say 5 btc.  The thief get access to your seed/wallet and when they put it in electrum or ledger to get the btc, they see only 0.5 btc but then let say they saw a transaction the person made where they sent around 4.5 btc to another wallet a while back ago.  So they could assume okay you have access to this wallet as well right?  Then again, how would they know because couldn't it be you sending that btc to coinbase to cash out to your bank account?



So if they see those coins were never moved since you sent them, then they know it isn't coinbase or anything like that right?  Because coinbase would move them immediately? 



If that is the case, how do ppl then safely move their btc to their hidden wallet in their nano ledger s or trezor then?  Imagine someone with 5 or l0 btc.  They want to have a hidden wallet.  They going to need to send like 0.5 btc every few days or something to the hidden wallet to not arouse suspicion?  Issue with this is you are going to pay a ton of transaction fees... but not only that... once you send those coins to your hidden wallet over a period of weeks for month for example, they aren't going to move anywhere.  But not only that, isn't it obviously you are sending to the same btc address though to the hidden wallet?

[jerry0]

And now let say they want to access their main wallet.  Just enter you pin for the new nano ledger s and you will see around

0.00l btc - fees so around 0.00l btc - 0.00034btc =


0.00066 balance?



But instead if you enter the hidden wallet seed and the passphrase i posted in the above post, now you see a balance of


0.004 btc balance right?




But what if you have to open your ledger live to a thief?  Wouldn't when you log in, they would see two different ledger accounts?  Thus one with 0.00066 balance and one with 0.004 btc balance? 



Could you hide that somehow or delete it?  Then again you would want both accounts to show up everytime you log into ledger live for personal use though.  So how would that owkr?

[bob123]

But what if you have to open your ledger live to a thief?  Wouldn't when you log in, they would see two different ledger accounts?  Thus one with 0.00066 balance and one with 0.004 btc balance? 

You don't need to open ledger live.
Anyone with access to your system can access all the relevant data from ledger live. Even without the password. That password (for ledger live) is just a gimmick, it does not encrypt anything.
The data is stored in plain text and can be read by anyone who knows where to look for.

Could you hide that somehow or delete it?  Then again you would want both accounts to show up everytime you log into ledger live for personal use though.  So how would that owkr?

The best answer would be: Don't use ledger live.

[dkbit98]

Problem is that you need to use ledger live sometimes, because you can't verify that ledger you purchased is really authentic without ledger live, and you need it for all ledger firmware updates.
Best thing would be to keep ledger live installation on separate device you don't use everyday, maybe your old smartphone that is encrypted and have good login protection password.

[o_e_l_e_o]

If that is the case, how do ppl then safely move their btc to their hidden wallet in their nano ledger s or trezor then?

By breaking the link between the two wallets. Just sending 90% of your stash from one address to another, and then having it sit on the new address and never move, is completely obvious to anyone who can look at the blockchain. If it was moved to an exchange or other service it would have been swept to their main wallets. The easiest way to break the link is going to be using a mixer or a coinjoin transaction.

But not only that, isn't it obviously you are sending to the same btc address though to the hidden wallet?

The hidden wallet can create as many addresses as you want. You can spread the deposits across multiple addresses in the same wallet.

Problem is that you need to use ledger live sometimes, because you can't verify that ledger you purchased is really authentic without ledger live, and you need it for all ledger firmware updates.

Is there actually any requirement to add accounts to Ledger Live? Can you not just use it to verify your device, update the firmware, and add and remove apps, without ever adding accounts or syncing your balances?

[dkbit98]

Is there actually any requirement to add accounts to Ledger Live? Can you not just use it to verify your device, update the firmware, and add and remove apps, without ever adding accounts or syncing your balances?

I didn't try doing something like that, but since it is possible to delete accounts than I believe you don't have to create accounts in ledger live and you can just connect ledger directly with Electrum after you updated and added apps.

[Pmalek]

Is there actually any requirement to add accounts to Ledger Live? Can you not just use it to verify your device, update the firmware, and add and remove apps, without ever adding accounts or syncing your balances?

In theory, it should be possible. Installing/uninstalling apps and adding/deleting accounts in Ledger live are completely independent processes. After you install an app, the LL software doesn't force you to add any accounts. The software will sync with the blockchain and look for existing accounts with balances only during the process of adding accounts. After a Ledger-native app is installed, Ledger Live will not display any accounts unless you initiate that process manually.   

[jerry0]

So how does one use ledger live this way then without giving up information? 



Imagine you were told to turn on your laptop and then log into ledger live.  Sure your seed might have say 0.5 btc where that is the balance.. but your hidden balance could be 5 btc... and both of those accounts would be showing on ledger live.  Then aren't you screwed because okay they know you have a hidden wallet?  Thus that person would go... okay you actually have 5 whole btc and not 0.5 btc.



Could you have the 5 btc hidden account not shown on ledger live?  But obviously you want it shown there when you check on it normally etc.

[o_e_l_e_o]

So how does one use ledger live this way then without giving up information?

With difficulty.

Could you have the 5 btc hidden account not shown on ledger live?  But obviously you want it shown there when you check on it normally etc.

You would have to delete and re-add the account every time you wanted to access it. There is no need to "check on it". If it has been created properly then it is safe and there is no need to "check on it", and if you have messed up and it isn't safe, then "checking on it" achieves literally nothing since once your coins are stolen there is nothing you can do about it anyway.

Options include deleting and re-adding the account each time as I've said, using a different piece of wallet software to access your hidden wallets (but again, making sure you do not leave any traces of these hidden wallets such as an Electrum wallet file), or using a different install of Ledger Live to access your hidden wallets (perhaps on a different computer or hidden in an encrypted file).

[jerry0]

Okay im back in the US for now but for a short time.



I still don't want to do this on my same device for some reason.  For some reason still feel like i should get a second device to do this.  But to make sure everything is good... i should first enter my ledger seed on the ledger itself to confirm it is correct with my device before i proceed with this right?  I will have to get my seed first before i do this but once i get the seed and enter it on ledger to confirm... then i can proceed without concern right?



Now... I got to assume you guys who first do this when you already have coins in your nano ledger s... test sending a tiny amount first right when doing it?  Then again, its pretty expensive to send any btc now right?  Back then it was cents and a dollar or around there so no big difference.  But one probably should send like 0.00l btc first to make sure it works?  Then once new address receives it... should you do a reset of your device?  Or not necessary?  Also there is no need for a new seed that you need to write down right?



So after you reset it or confirm the tiny amount of btc is sent to the new address... then you send the rest at once?  Or some might might just send a smaller piece and another smaller piece and then a big piece of it?  I know it has to do with outputs so its possible sending one whole time for whole amount of btc might not even save you much compared to sending btc few times to the new address?



I ask this because imagine someone has a lot of btc ... like 5 btc or l0 btc.  I mean... you send a small amount of 0.00l btc to the new address that is connected with the passphrase and second pin right?  But once it goes through... you going to send like the remaining almost 5 btc or l0 btc at once?  Im using that as an example since im curious but people with huge amounts of btc does here when wanting to do that passphrase.



I mean... even for l btc... wouldnt you all feel nervous after sending 0.00l btc to the new hidden address account... then having to send the rest of it in the second transfer at once?  I can imagine anyone having l btc or more doing this taking extreme caution right?  Like imagine someone with 5 btc sending it to the hidden address account... and having to wait a long time for it to transfer in the blockchain... would seem like lot of anxiety right now... do most people agree?

[HCP]

Install the "Recovery Check" app on your Nano S: https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360007223753-Recovery-Check

Use it to confirm that the seed you have written down/stored offline is indeed the seed currently in use by your device. If that checks out feel free to do whatever you like in terms of sending coins to your device.

Some people will send a small amount to test before loading the bulk of their coins. Others will just send away. Some people will send with low fees regardless of network conditions as they don't want to spend money on fees... others want quick confirmation times and will send with high fees to get the coins their quickly.

As for sending amounts... it depends how you envision spending coins in the future... by sending say all your 5 BTC at once, you end up with 1 UTXO... however, when you go to spend in the future, the entire world will be able to see that the address had 5 BTC on it, which means the owner had at least 5 BTC... regardless of how much you actually try to send.

So, some folks like to keep a "range" of UTXOs on different addresses... say, 10, 1, 0.1, 0.01 etc... That way they can use "coin control" to spend an appropriately sized UTXO for what they're trying to send to "obscure" their total holdings... ie. if they only want to send 0.1, they can use just the 0.1 and 0.01 UTXOs (got to cover that fee! ) and then anyone who sees the transaction will only be able to tell that the owner had at least 0.11 BTC... but they won't see the other 11+ BTC on different addresses

However, if you anticipate that you may need to shift the vast majority of your holdings somewhere, (ie. sending all to exchange to cash out)... then having a lot of smaller UTXO's will end up costing you more in transaction fees.

There is no "one size fits all" solution to this... So you're just going to have to sit down and think what your most likely scenarios are... and then create a system that works for that.

[jerry0]

Okay will install recovery check.



How long ago did ledger had this recovery check app?  I recall when i first got the ledger few years ago, im not sure they had that option yet... if it did... it might been pretty new?  I got it three years ago or so more or less.



Well right now... how much does it cost to send btc from nano ledger s address to a new address?  I know you can configure fees but the lowest fee is like how much now?



Well if a person has 5 btc, how would they even send it to the hidden address?  That is a ton of btc nowadays.  Would that person send tiny amount like 0.00l btc to make sure the new address receives it.  Then send the entire bulk of the rest in the second transaction?  I dont know how some ppl could even feel comfortable sending say 0.5 btc now in just one transaction without anxiety etc.



But if you are trying to send all the btc in your main wallet to a hidden wallet... isn't it true that won't work because someone could see that a person moved that much btc to another address so its obvious they still own that btc?



I recall someone said... imagine someone who had like 5 btc in their nano ledger s.  But now they want the passphrase and the extra word.  So that way, the btc they have when they enter the pin on their nano ledger would only show their main btc wallet which would have btc but not the bulk of it.  Like imagine someone thinks this person only has say 0.05 btc only.  But if they were to check and see this person sent like l btc or say 5 btc to another address... isn't it obvious that person also owns that btc as well and its in their hidden wallet?  Of course if that other person knows your 0.05 btc wallet cannot be all you have... then obviously they would know of hidden wallet right?  But again, this would need someone to be very knowledgeable about the other person? 



But even so, how does one even move their btc without drawing attention then?  I mean if someone has say 5 btc... they going to do the extra word and passphrase and then send btc to like l0 different btc addresses then so they going to have like l0 hidden addresses?  But someone said well if the other person sees those btc never moved.... then isn't it obvious the owner still has it?  You say keep a range of utxos... but now you going to pay like twenty bucks each time to send to different address?  So if someone has like l0 btc or something ridiculous like that... they going to need to slowly move the btc to different addresses to not draw attention?  Again the big issue seem to be... well what if they see your accounts on ledger live... that seem to be a big issue here isn't it?  Unless you could delete all your accounts and restore them each time pretty easily?

[Rath_]

How long ago did ledger had this recovery check app?  I recall when i first got the ledger few years ago, im not sure they had that option yet... if it did... it might been pretty new?  I got it three years ago or so more or less.

It's been available for about 3 years.

Well right now... how much does it cost to send btc from nano ledger s address to a new address?  I know you can configure fees but the lowest fee is like how much now?

The lowest possible fee is 1 sat/vbyte (most nodes reject values lower than that). As for right now, you need to pay about 12 sat/vbyte to get your transaction confirmed in the next block. By the time you decide to send your coins, this value will have changed. The total fee depends on the size of the transaction. The more inputs and outputs you have, the more you are going to pay.

A transaction with 1 native SegWit input and 2 native SegWit outputs weights 141 vbytes. So, if you selected 12 sat/vbyte, you would pay a 0.00001692 BTC fee.

But if you are trying to send all the btc in your main wallet to a hidden wallet... isn't it true that won't work because someone could see that a person moved that much btc to another address so its obvious they still own that btc?

No one can be completely certain if you are sending all those coins to yourself. You can always use a mixing service if you are concerned about your privacy. For example, if you use ChipMixer, you will get a private key to an address with coins which were deposited sometime in the past. However, with your reasoning, it doesn't make sense much sense anyway.

[dkbit98]

However, with your reasoning, it doesn't make sense much sense anyway.

Does any of his rumbling posts ever made any real sense?
Not for me and maybe I need a translator for his 1001 questions, but I am glad to see he is Back in America and keeping his account active
I am really lost are we still talking about about 25th word in this topic or about anxiety and feeling nervous when sending bitcoins...


 

[Pmalek]

How long ago did ledger had this recovery check app?

It doesn't really matter. If you trust Ledger with your coins and you use their native apps you can trust them in regards to the Recovery App as well.  

Well right now... how much does it cost to send btc from nano ledger s address to a new address?  I know you can configure fees but the lowest fee is like how much now?

That changes all the time and with each newly mined block. Just use https://mempool.space/ before you want to send any bitcoins. Use the high priority recommendation if you are in a hurry, or the medium/low priority if you can wait a few hours or days. Please don't ask how much you will have to wait, that also depends on the state of the mempool.

Right now, at 12:29 CET, you can get a next block confirmation for 14 sats/vByte. At the time this post is finished and posted, those conditions can change.
Aaand we just found a new block, so you can get your transaction into the next one for just 11 sats. That's why it doesn't make sense asking what the current fee rate is and reading about it 2 days later when things can change within a few minutes. 

[o_e_l_e_o]

Like imagine someone thinks this person only has say 0.05 btc only.  But if they were to check and see this person sent like l btc or say 5 btc to another address... isn't it obvious that person also owns that btc as well and its in their hidden wallet?

Yes, if you move 5 BTC from your main wallet to another address and it never moves from there, then it is pretty obviously you have simply moved it to another wallet for safe keeping.

So instead, create a brand new seed on your Ledger device. Send your 5 BTC from your old wallet to ChipMixer, and then send 0.1 BTC from ChipMixer to your new seed phrase, and send 4.9 BTC from ChipMixer to a wallet using your new seed phrase and a passphrase. If someone coerces you in to unlocking your Ledger device or revealing your seed phrase, they can steal the 0.1 BTC from your base wallet. Even looking at the transaction history on the blockchain, there will be no link between that 0.1 BTC which has been stolen and the 4.9 BTC which remains hidden and secure behind your additional passphrase.

But someone said well if the other person sees those btc never moved.... then isn't it obvious the owner still has it?

Not if you've mixed it. They will see your coins disappear in to a mixer and will have no idea which long term static bitcoin belong to you.

You say keep a range of utxos... but now you going to pay like twenty bucks each time to send to different address?

So split your 5 BTC in to 10x 0.5 BTC. If you want to send all 10 outputs to an exchange to sell, then does spending $20 for a 10 input transaction if fees happen to be especially high really matter when you are about to cash out $300,000?

Again the big issue seem to be... well what if they see your accounts on ledger live... that seem to be a big issue here isn't it?

So don't use Ledger Live.

[jerry0]

Okay if thats the case, then how do people do this without making it obvious then?  You have to use a mixer no matter what?


Okay so create a new seed... then do it.  That makes sense.  But how are you suppose to do this if you only have one ledger nano s?  I mean you aren't resetting it or putting wrong pin three times right?  Im confused how you do this here. 


But im curious is that what majority of people are doing? I know you are using 5 btc as an example which is already a lot.  But if you have less, it would still be worth it to do that right?


I don't know how its possible to not use ledger live.  So what does one do to check their balance and send/receive coins then?  Back then it was ledger manager.


I could imagine this process much easier if you had a second nano ledger s.  With just one nano ledger s... isn't a mistake pretty possible this way?

[HCP]

Why is a mistake possible with only one device?

Reset device, create new seed (backup new seed!)... get master public key, create watching only wallet in something like Electrum... reset device, enter old seed... send ALL coins to mixer... get addresses from "new seed" wallet using watching only wallet... send coins from mixer to new seed addresses.

Reset device, enter new seed... live happily ever after.



Having 2 devices would definitely make it easier, but there is no reason you can't do it with only 1 device... it's just a bit more tedious.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Okay if thats the case, then how do people do this without making it obvious then?  You have to use a mixer no matter what?

If you want to break the link between your old wallet and your new one, then you need to actually do something to break the link. The easiest way to do that, in my opinion, is to use ChipMixer. The other option I would consider would be using CoinJoin.

But how are you suppose to do this if you only have one ledger nano s?  I mean you aren't resetting it or putting wrong pin three times right?  Im confused how you do this here.

If I only had one Ledger Nano, then the easiest way would be to send all the funds to ChipMixer (making sure you have saved your session code, of course), reset the Ledger, set up a new seed phrase, withdraw one or more small value chips from ChipMixer and send to this wallet, then set up a passphrase and withdraw the majority of your chips to this wallet. If you aren't comfortable sending the entire amount to ChipMixer in one go, then do as HCP has said to create a new wallet on your Ledger, set up a watch only wallet for this new wallet, restore your old wallet on your Ledger, and send and withdraw the coins in batches.

But im curious is that what majority of people are doing? I know you are using 5 btc as an example which is already a lot.  But if you have less, it would still be worth it to do that right?

The majority of people pay no attention to their privacy. Whether this is worth doing or not for you depends entirely on your risk model and how much you value your privacy.

I don't know how its possible to not use ledger live.  So what does one do to check their balance and send/receive coins then?  Back then it was ledger manager.

Electrum.

I could imagine this process much easier if you had a second nano ledger s.  With just one nano ledger s... isn't a mistake pretty possible this way?

As long as you have your seed phrase backed up on paper, then the only realistic mistakes would be user error. Take your time and double check every transaction. I've been using ChipMixer for years and have never once made a mistake when depositing coins, withdrawing chips, or saving or restoring sessions or vouchers.

[jerry0]

Okay but do you think most people are even trying to break the link between old wallet and new one?  Would you say not necessary and just do the passphrase and hidden wallet and that should be good enough?


I guess only if that person knows you have a lot of btc and that amount you have in your main wallet is so little so they know its hidden wallet?


Again but the main issue is if you were told to reveal your pin... well wouldnt you have to ot it to a laptop then which would reveal your other wallet assuming you have ledger live on your laptop like most people?  I mean someone having your hardware wallet is useless without pin... but also if you tell them your pin, they still need to confirm its correct.  So with nano ledger s, that still require connecting to a laptop right?  Thus if its your laptop, then its screwed since it will show alll your wallets?  Thus your main one and hidden one? 


Now if you have ledger x, that would be difference since they could literally connect it to any device like a phone and then it show the wallet and coins?  But this way its better in that well they cant see the hidden wallet?  Or incorrect since well you still using ledger live?


So most ppl thus for security purposes, use electrum with nano ledger s and do not bother with ledger live then for situations like this?  But is the hidden wallet still shown on electrum though when you open the program each time?  That seem to be confusing thing here.


But is there a way for you to delete your hidden wallet from ledger live so each time you log into ledger live, it only has your main wallet?  Then you add your hidden wallet into ledger live each time to check it?  But when you close the program, you delete the hidden wallet account each time?  Thus if you were told to open your laptop as well to connect to ledger live, well you have you main wallet which is small amount of btc and ledger live.. only showing that main wallet?

[o_e_l_e_o]

Would you say not necessary and just do the passphrase and hidden wallet and that should be good enough?

Again, no one can answer that question for you. It depends entirely on what you consider an acceptable risk. If you think you are at significant risk of someone forcing you to reveal your PIN to your Ledger wallet or your seed phrase, then no, it is not good enough. A transaction leaving that wallet containing ~90% of your funds going to another address and never moving from that address is a dead giveaway that you have moved it to a different wallet still under your control.

well wouldnt you have to ot it to a laptop then which would reveal your other wallet assuming you have ledger live on your laptop like most people?  I mean someone having your hardware wallet is useless without pin... but also if you tell them your pin, they still need to confirm its correct.  So with nano ledger s, that still require connecting to a laptop right?  Thus if its your laptop, then its screwed since it will show alll your wallets?  Thus your main one and hidden one? 

Correct. Part of the reason I don't use Ledger Live, although I assume you can simply delete your hidden wallet from Ledger Live and then re-add it next time you want to use it. I have no idea if such activity would be recorded in some logs somewhere, there.

So most ppl thus for security purposes, use electrum with nano ledger s and do not bother with ledger live then for situations like this?  But is the hidden wallet still shown on electrum though when you open the program each time?  That seem to be confusing thing here.

If you keep the wallet file saved on your computer, then yes, the attacker will see another wallet file. They won't know what is inside the wallet file or if it is linked to the same hardware wallet though. You can also, very simply, delete the wallet file when not using it.

[Pmalek]

Correct. Part of the reason I don't use Ledger Live, although I assume you can simply delete your hidden wallet from Ledger Live and then re-add it next time you want to use it. I have no idea if such activity would be recorded in some logs somewhere, there.

You can delete any wallet, or more precisely, account, through your Ledger Live interface. But it's really easy to get those back. If someone forces you to reveal your PIN and have you log in to your Ledger Live, all they would have to do is is click on the add accounts button for bitcoin, for example, and have Ledger scan for all existing accounts. At that point, all the accounts you created would be revealed including those you removed manually.

You had to use Ledger Live to install your crypto apps and keep the firmware up to date. If the thief knows what he is doing, he will know this. 

[o_e_l_e_o]

If someone forces you to reveal your PIN and have you log in to your Ledger Live, all they would have to do is is click on the add accounts button for bitcoin, for example, and have Ledger scan for all existing accounts. At that point, all the accounts you created would be revealed including those you removed manually.

As I said, I don't use Ledger Live so I'm not overly familiar with this process, but provided the hardware wallet does as it says and doesn't store any temporary passphrase on the device, then there is no possible way that having Ledger Live scan for accounts would identify your passphrased wallets unless it brute force attempts every possible passphrase, which is of course impossible. If could only find other accounts at the standard derivation paths it scans for, and I would wager that even something as simple as using a non-standard derivation path would effectively hide your wallet from Ledger Live's automatic detection process.

You had to use Ledger Live to install your crypto apps and keep the firmware up to date. If the thief knows what he is doing, he will know this.

Sure, but at no point in updating the firmware or the apps did I need to actually add a bitcoin account (or any other coin, for that matter).

[jerry0]

This is a lot complicated than it looks then.  I mean i thought the passphrase would be protecting you with your hidden wallet but if you use ledger live which i assume majority of people do... then you can't do that. 


The fact that you say log into ledger live and click on add accounts and thats all it scan everything, how does even this passphrase even protect you much then? 


So you install ledger live and update everything first, then basically delete the PROGRAM itself each time then as in remove the program?  Or that doesn't work either since well if you download the ledger live program again on you laptop, you could still use your ledger live password or you need to create a new ledger live account?



Because how come I don't see anyone mention about mainly using electrum then if you are doing passphrase for hidden wallet?


I dont see any mention from ledger live about oh you want to do a hidden wallet... well you need to do passphrase and second pin for that access... but you also need to know you can't use ledger live etc...

[Pmalek]

About the passphrase and the passphrase-protected wallet. I think this is how it works.

Let's say you have two bitcoin wallets in Ledger Live. Wallet 1 is your standard wallet, Wallet 2 is your passphrase-protected wallet. After you set up your secondary PIN and the passphrase-protected wallet, both Wallet 1 and 2 will remain visible in Ledger Live. If you login using the PIN for your main wallet (wallet 1) you will still be able to see your passphrase-protected wallet in LL, but you wont be able to do anything with it. For example, you can't send a transaction from it.

If you don't want it to be visible, you should manually delete the passphrase-protected wallet from your portfolio in LL so that only your main wallet remains. That way when you log in, you only see your main balance and not the hidden wallet balance. The next time you want to use your passphrase-protected wallet, you have to log in with your secondary PIN or passphrase, and add the account again in LL.   

[o_e_l_e_o]

I mean i thought the passphrase would be protecting you with your hidden wallet but if you use ledger live which i assume majority of people do... then you can't do that.

The passphrase absolutely protects your hidden wallet. However, if you leave a piece of paper on your desk which says "Main wallet - 0.1 BTC, passphrased walled - 4.9 BTC", then obviously you have given away the existence your passphrased wallet. This is essentially what you are doing by adding all your accounts to Ledger Live. If you want your passphrased wallet to remain hidden, then you actually have to hide it, and not leave traces of its existence everywhere.

So you install ledger live and update everything first, then basically delete the PROGRAM itself each time then as in remove the program?  Or that doesn't work either since well if you download the ledger live program again on you laptop, you could still use your ledger live password or you need to create a new ledger live account?

You don't need to delete the program. Simply delete the accounts you want to hide. You can re-add them later when you want to use them.

Because how come I don't see anyone mention about mainly using electrum then if you are doing passphrase for hidden wallet?

Plenty of people use Electrum for both Ledger and Trezor hardware wallets, since it provides more functionality and more advanced options than either of their native clients.

[jerry0]

I thought even if the passphrase... you aren't protected if you had to open your ledger live on your laptop though?  Obviously you dont write on paper on desk that said okay 0.l btc on main wallet and the rest in hidden wallet as that would be obvious.


Okay so you say delete the accounts you want to hide... and then readd them later.  So that process is very fast to do both delete and readd?  But i thought someone said if you connect your ledger to laptop and ledger live... it cold automatically rescan all accounts... is that correct?  If so, couldn't someone rescan your ledger live themselves?


Well i haven't used electrum in a while.  Again i kept my coins there but since i got nano ledger... i didn't even want to try using it anymore because of all those issues they had.  But can you or someone else confirm this with the delete and readd accounts?

[Rath_]

So that process is very fast to do both delete and readd?

Yes, it is. It takes just a few seconds for the Ledger Live to fetch your balance from their servers.

If so, couldn't someone rescan your ledger live themselves?

Ledger Live can do that only if your device is unlocked. So, if you delete accounts associated with your hidden wallet, someone would have to know your passphrase to be able to add those accounts again in the Ledger Live.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I thought even if the passphrase... you aren't protected if you had to open your ledger live on your laptop though?  Obviously you dont write on paper on desk that said okay 0.l btc on main wallet and the rest in hidden wallet as that would be obvious.

That paper example is an analogy. If you leave a wallet file on your computer called "Super secret passphrase wallet", then it is obvious. If you leave an additional account in your Ledger Live profile with 10x more coins in it than your other account, then it is obvious. If you want a wallet to be hidden, then you have to actually hide it. You can't just set a passphrase and think "Well, my coins are completely safe, now I can be totally careless with my security".

But i thought someone said if you connect your ledger to laptop and ledger live... it cold automatically rescan all accounts... is that correct?  If so, couldn't someone rescan your ledger live themselves?

If you unlock your Ledger to your basic seed phrase wallet with no additional passphrase, and someone scans for accounts, they will find any accounts (legacy, nested segwit, or native segwit) which have been created at standard derivation paths using only your seed phrase. They will not find any wallets hidden behind passphrases.

[jerry0]

I thought even if the passphrase... you aren't protected if you had to open your ledger live on your laptop though?  Obviously you dont write on paper on desk that said okay 0.l btc on main wallet and the rest in hidden wallet as that would be obvious.

That paper example is an analogy. If you leave a wallet file on your computer called "Super secret passphrase wallet", then it is obvious. If you leave an additional account in your Ledger Live profile with 10x more coins in it than your other account, then it is obvious. If you want a wallet to be hidden, then you have to actually hide it. You can't just set a passphrase and think "Well, my coins are completely safe, now I can be totally careless with my security".

But i thought someone said if you connect your ledger to laptop and ledger live... it cold automatically rescan all accounts... is that correct?  If so, couldn't someone rescan your ledger live themselves?

If you unlock your Ledger to your basic seed phrase wallet with no additional passphrase, and someone scans for accounts, they will find any accounts (legacy, nested segwit, or native segwit) which have been created at standard derivation paths using only your seed phrase. They will not find any wallets hidden behind passphrases.

If that is the case, then what someone else said was wrong then right about needing to hide your hidden account on ledger live?  Thus say you enter your pin to the regular wallet.  You go on ledger live... you see all wallets associated with that wallet and pin.  But it doesn't show the hidden wallet right?  Example say your main wallet had 0.3 btc but your hidden wallet had 2.7 btc since you sent 90 percent of it from your main wallet to hidden wallet. 


So if you log in your nano ledger with your second pin... then access ledger live... what accounts do you see?  I assume you see all wallets even the main one right?  But if you log in with the regular wallet pin... you don't see the hidden wallet?  Or is that still visible?  Because you mention this... but someone else says they think it works another way.


Also if someone were to scan your ledger live... let say they do this when you already entered your regular pin into the wallet... could they find the hidden wallets when your nano ledger is connected to the laptop?  Also when you add accounts on ledger live... the only way to add it is if a nano ledger s is connected to it right and it scans that nano ledger s for it?  Thus its not possible for you or someone to add accounts or scan for old accounts unless the nano ledger s is connected to it right? 

[o_e_l_e_o]

But it doesn't show the hidden wallet right?

It will show your hidden account if you have added it to Ledger Live. You can open Ledger Live without your Ledger device attached and see all the accounts added to it. If you don't want it to show your hidden account when you open Ledger Live, then you need to delete that account from Ledger Live and only re-add at when you want to use it. You will need to attach your Ledger device with the passphrase enabled (either through manually entering it or through unlocking with your secondary PIN) to re-add your hidden account.

So if you log in your nano ledger with your second pin... then access ledger live... what accounts do you see?

You will see all the accounts you have added to Ledger Live at all times, regardless of what device is attached at the time. Once again, if you want to hide an account, you must delete it from Ledger Live.

Also if someone were to scan your ledger live... let say they do this when you already entered your regular pin into the wallet... could they find the hidden wallets when your nano ledger is connected to the laptop?

Not unless there is some massive flaw in your Ledger hardware device.

Also when you add accounts on ledger live... the only way to add it is if a nano ledger s is connected to it right and it scans that nano ledger s for it?  Thus its not possible for you or someone to add accounts or scan for old accounts unless the nano ledger s is connected to it right?

As far as I am aware, this is correct.

[Pmalek]

If that is the case, then what someone else said was wrong then right about needing to hide your hidden account on ledger live?  Thus say you enter your pin to the regular wallet.  You go on ledger live... you see all wallets associated with that wallet and pin.  But it doesn't show the hidden wallet right?

I was the one who said that. But as I mentioned in my second post, you need to manually delete your hidden account in the Ledger Live software. After you have done that, your hidden wallet will no longer be visible. The only way for someone to see it again, is if you login to your passphrase-protected wallet and re-add the hidden account in your portfolio. When you do that, you are back to square one. All your accounts, including the hidden account will become visible again in LL with your normal PIN or the passphrase/secondary PIN. To hide it, delete the hidden account just like you did the first time.       

So if you log in your nano ledger with your second pin... then access ledger live... what accounts do you see?  I assume you see all wallets even the main one right? 

Yes, you will see all of them. Because they are all available in your portfolio in LL. You have to manually delete those you don't want to see. ​

But if you log in with the regular wallet pin... you don't see the hidden wallet?  Or is that still visible?

You will see it if you didn't delete the account in LL. If you deleted the account, it won't be visible.

Also if someone were to scan your ledger live... let say they do this when you already entered your regular pin into the wallet... could they find the hidden wallets when your nano ledger is connected to the laptop? 

If you deleted the hidden account, they wouldn't be able to see it. 

[jerry0]

But it doesn't show the hidden wallet right?

It will show your hidden account if you have added it to Ledger Live. You can open Ledger Live without your Ledger device attached and see all the accounts added to it. If you don't want it to show your hidden account when you open Ledger Live, then you need to delete that account from Ledger Live and only re-add at when you want to use it. You will need to attach your Ledger device with the passphrase enabled (either through manually entering it or through unlocking with your secondary PIN) to re-add your hidden account.

So if you log in your nano ledger with your second pin... then access ledger live... what accounts do you see?

You will see all the accounts you have added to Ledger Live at all times, regardless of what device is attached at the time. Once again, if you want to hide an account, you must delete it from Ledger Live.

Also if someone were to scan your ledger live... let say they do this when you already entered your regular pin into the wallet... could they find the hidden wallets when your nano ledger is connected to the laptop?

Not unless there is some massive flaw in your Ledger hardware device.

Also when you add accounts on ledger live... the only way to add it is if a nano ledger s is connected to it right and it scans that nano ledger s for it?  Thus its not possible for you or someone to add accounts or scan for old accounts unless the nano ledger s is connected to it right?

As far as I am aware, this is correct.

Okay in other words... you are saying... once you delete all your accounts in ledger live.  It is impossible to re-add those accounts or any accounts unless you have a nano ledger s connected to it during the process right?   You mention this if you have a passphrase.  But in my earlier example in my other thread... where i had to restore an old seed into a replacement nano ledger s.... remember i didn't have that extra passphrase... after i entered in my seed and it showed processing and correct... I recall before that... I didn't delete any accounts in the accounts tab.  But once I deleted them.  I then re-added them and the same ones and balances showed up.  So whether passphrase or not... if you ever delete the accounts in ledger live... the only way to ever re-add any accounts in ledger live is connect a nano ledger to it right?  Thus right now, you can obviously delete the accounts in ledger live without connecting your nano ledger right?  But when you click add accounts... you need to have a nano ledger connected to it?  You say as far as i am aware, this is correct.
Can anyone here CONFIRM this part?



So for the second part.  I want to make sure i have this correct.  You have no hidden wallet... just your regular pin.  It shows all your accounts there.  You could delete it anytime.  But when you log in ledger live... it still won't be there... but if you rescan... all those accounts will show up right?



Now say you have hidden wallet with that second pin and passphrase.  You log in ledger live with that.  It shows only your hidden account/balances.  You can obviously delete it the same way as like a regular pin/wallet.  But if you click on add accounts.. then those hidden wallets will show up right? Also is the term add accounts or rescan or re-add or its the same word?  There isn't like two ways of doing it right... like add accounts and
re-add accounts?



So having the passphrase/second pin makes you have a hidden wallet so unless you reveal to someone you have that hidden wallet... they won't know unless the are aware of hidden wallets right?  Because if you had to connect your nano ledger to your laptop and enter pin... then it show say 0.3 btc in the wallet.  But if they see oh wait a minute, this person transferred 2.7 btc to another wallet weeks ago or months ago... do most know its linked and you probably have access to those btc as well?  What would they do?  Check on that transaction ticket to see if any of that btc got moved or not?  Like if it did and many transactions, then okay it got sent to exchange since those exchanges always move the btc?  But if no transactions took place, then they know you have to have a hidden wallet.  Is that correct? 



So basically if you have a hidden wallet, its nice because to the regular thief who isn't tech savy, they see 0.3 btc and thats it right?  But if they tech savy, they would look at all your entire transactions on ledger live... but not only that... check the transactions of each one to see if any of those btc got moved right?  Is the term moved?  So if they see they got moved... then okay this person doesn't have the btc anymore so he has no hidden wallet?


So basically even using electrum as watching only wallet doesn't really protect you if you use that as oppose to ledger live?  Thus you need to use a mixer l00% to move those coins?  Also, how would someone move them smartly?  Example they got 3 btc total.  They want to move say 90% or 2.7 btc to a hidden wallet.  This person should do how many transactions to the hidden wallet?  Like l0 of them etc ranging from like
0.l btc to 0.5btc to not make it look suspicious?  But if you use mixer, you can't just send the entire 2.7 btc at once?  Thus to save on sending fees?  Now obviously sending fees shouldn't mean much if you sending that much type of money.  But say you were to cashout that 2.7 btc to coinbase, well you could literally send it at once and cash out.  And if they check transaction history, they see it then got moved by coinbase right?  So whats difference between that and the mixer?

[HCP]

This is a lot complicated than it looks then.  I mean i thought the passphrase would be protecting you with your hidden wallet but if you use ledger live which i assume majority of people do... then you can't do that. 

It does protect your hidden wallet...

The fact that you say log into ledger live and click on add accounts and thats all it scan everything, how does even this passphrase even protect you much then? 

Because it doesn't work like that...


When you unlock your Ledger Nano S/X, you do it in one of three ways...

1. Normal PIN... this unlocks the "default" wallet (ie. 24 word seed)
2. Using "2nd PIN" (if enabled)... this unlocks the "hidden" wallet (ie. 24 word seed + "saved" BIP39 passphrase)
3. Using Normal PIN + "Temp Passphrase" functionality... this unlocks a "hidden" wallet (ie. 24 word seed + entered BIP39 passphrase)

Assuming you have no accounts loaded in Ledger Live (ie. new install, or you deleted everything or "Reset" Ledger Live)... when you "Scan" accounts... Ledger Live will only be able to "see" the accounts that are associated to the current "seed"... which is dependent on how you unlocked it (PIN, 2nd PIN or PIN+temp passphrase).

If you leave those accounts in Ledger Live... disconnect your device and then reconnect it and unlock it with a different method... you'll then be able to see the accounts of the previous method AND the new method.


So, if you want your "hidden" wallet to stay hidden...

1. Setup Ledger Live with your "Normal" PIN wallet/accounts
2. When you want to see your "hidden" wallet, unlock device with 2nd PIN (or normal PIN + temp passphrase), add the "hidden" accounts
3. Do whatever you need with "hidden" wallet (check balance, get receive address, send coins whatever)
4. DELETE the "hidden" wallet accounts from Ledger Live
5. Disconnect the device

Now, if someone opens your Ledger Live... they'll only see your "normal" wallet accounts.

This setup requires you to be methodical and remember to remove the hidden accounts if you ever add them... or, you could simply just completely reset Ledger Live every time you have finished using it and it will wipe everything for you.

If someone forces you to hand over PIN, when they rescan in (empty) Ledger Live, they only see the "normal" wallet accounts... your "hidden" accounts will not show.

[jerry0]

Thanks HCP for that long response.


Still not sure if its good idea to have this 25th Word or not.  I mean what you described with just deleting each time from ledger live... that seems very tempting to do.


But i also hear about people forgetting their 25th Word/passphrase as well.  But then again, you could literally type that in password manager and store it in the cloud right?  You have to say... that is probably safe to do as long as your seed phrase is in written form whether on paper in apartment/house or in multiple safe deposit boxes right?

[o_e_l_e_o]

Still not sure if its good idea to have this 25th Word or not.

The only downside is it gives you one more thing to back up. Otherwise, it gives you more security, plausible deniability, helps keep coins separate, can help improve your privacy, can help protect against brute force attacks, the list goes on. I would suggest everyone with a hardware wallet should be using multiple passphrases.

But then again, you could literally type that in password manager and store it in the cloud right?

Do you have shares in a cloud storage company? Why do you repeatedly and constantly bring up the idea of storing your wallet file, seed phrase, passphrase, whatever, in the cloud? Everyone here has told you multiple times why this is a bad idea. All the advice from every major wallet is to back things up non-electronically. The correct course of action is store your seed phrase and your passphrases physically (such as on paper or metal) but separately, so if one is stolen the thief still cannot access your coins.

No one is going to agree that storing any part of your back up on the cloud is a good idea, regardless of how many times you ask. I have a feeling you will do it anyway.

[jerry0]

Still not sure if its good idea to have this 25th Word or not.

The only downside is it gives you one more thing to back up. Otherwise, it gives you more security, plausible deniability, helps keep coins separate, can help improve your privacy, can help protect against brute force attacks, the list goes on. I would suggest everyone with a hardware wallet should be using multiple passphrases.

But then again, you could literally type that in password manager and store it in the cloud right?

Do you have shares in a cloud storage company? Why do you repeatedly and constantly bring up the idea of storing your wallet file, seed phrase, passphrase, whatever, in the cloud? Everyone here has told you multiple times why this is a bad idea. All the advice from every major wallet is to back things up non-electronically. The correct course of action is store your seed phrase and your passphrases physically (such as on paper or metal) but separately, so if one is stolen the thief still cannot access your coins.

No one is going to agree that storing any part of your back up on the cloud is a good idea, regardless of how many times you ask. I have a feeling you will do it anyway.

Wait so people who use passphrases have multiple passphrases?  So you mean they have a main wallet with their nano ledger... but also have more than one hidden wallet in it?  I thought it was like if someone had hidden wallet.. it was just one?




I get the it gives you more security.  But haven't people messed it up by having this passphrase either by screwing it up or forgetting password etc? 




I did hear people say the most things you do, the more you would get confused etc.  So someone that only has their regular nano ledger seed and their nano ledger... if they were to create a passphrase now, that would be simple.  My concern is when they start sending the big portion of their btc balance to the hidden wallet, there might be something going wrong etc.  Like its safe creating a passphrase/pin for it.  Then send tiny bit of btc to it to test.  Then once you do that, log in your nano ledger with your original pin and see your main balance.  Then unplug...log in with the other pin/password... then see your tiny balance for now... once its there.  Then unplug from laptop, and then plug back in and put in original pin to log in main wallet, then send majority to the hidden wallet right?



Also, wouldn't you need to literally copy/paste that btc address you sent to in the first test transfer?  Since when you connect to your original pin and ready to send the rest of your btc to the new hidden wallet, well you can't see the hidden wallet address since you only have just 1 nano ledger s instead of 2?  Or do most people who do this... usually have just 1 ledger nano?  Like imagine someone who have just 1 ledger nano device and then go... wait i want to create a hidden wallet and send most of my current balance there.  Seems like a silly mistake could happen when doing this with just one device or not?



Well I stored it in the cloud a while back and I didn't have issues though.  Again, I did mention i put it in password manager, so in order to get in, you need that password for that.  But you also need my cloud username and password etc.  But i know the main issue is if you get malware/keylogger, then that is very bad etc. Well I mentioned... i thought cloud seems great since any theft or fire... you are protected against.



What about people who say they store it in usb drives and encrypt it?  Isn't that bad as well since when they say this, they mean they typing the seed in wordpad or something and then encrypting their usb stick?  Since doing just this means you put your seed at risk since you are typing the seed on the keyboard?  I assume if one wants to store their seed in multiple usb sticks, either store it in password manager and then encrypt their usb stick so they have two forms of security?  Or they could type seed in wordpad and encrypt it with say axcrypt?  Then encrypt usb so still two forms of security?  But if you don't put it in the cloud and encrypt it in multiple usb flash drives, you would agree better with password manager then wordpad encrypted right?

[o_e_l_e_o]

Wait so people who use passphrases have multiple passphrases?

Not everyone, but it's a good thing to do.

I thought it was like if someone had hidden wallet.. it was just one?

You can only set up one secondary PIN with a passphrase attached, but you can use multiple passphrases but using the "set temporary" option instead.

I get the it gives you more security.  But haven't people messed it up by having this passphrase either by screwing it up or forgetting password etc?

Sure, which is why I said you must back up your passphrases.

Like its safe creating a passphrase/pin for it.  Then send tiny bit of btc to it to test.  Then once you do that, log in your nano ledger with your original pin and see your main balance.  Then unplug...log in with the other pin/password... then see your tiny balance for now... once its there.  Then unplug from laptop, and then plug back in and put in original pin to log in main wallet, then send majority to the hidden wallet right?

That is one way of doing it. Usually when I set up a new passphrase I simply enter the passphrase, open the new wallet, note down the first address, reset everything, enter the passphrase a second time, open the new wallet a second time, and check the first address matches. If it does, I'm pretty happy to start sending coins to that wallet, confident I am using the passphrase I think I am.

Also, wouldn't you need to literally copy/paste that btc address you sent to in the first test transfer?

Yes. Copy from the passphrased wallet to a text editor and double check nothing has changed, then open your main wallet and copy from the text editor in to the "send" field and again double check that nothing has changed. Once you have made your first successful test transaction, then you can simply copy the address from your main wallet's sent transaction history.

Well I stored it in the cloud a while back and I didn't have issues though.

"I've driven my whole life without a seat belt and I am still alive therefore it is safe to do this." Just because you haven't ran in to problems yet doesn't make it a good idea.

What about people who say they store it in usb drives and encrypt it?

This is only an acceptable option if you have a permanently airgapped computer with no persistent storage running a live OS using open source and secure encryption methods. Since most people cannot do this properly, then for most people it is a bad idea. I would include you in this "most people" category, since you are suggesting using a program (axcrypt) which is proprietary, closed source, and has adware bundled with it, and is therefore a very insecure choice.

[Pmalek]

Still not sure if its good idea to have this 25th Word or not.  I mean what you described with just deleting each time from ledger live... that seems very tempting to do.

Deleting an account on Ledger Live is as easy as turning the lights off before you go to bed, or locking your door when you leave your house.

But i also hear about people forgetting their 25th Word/passphrase as well. 

You are not supposed to memorize it, you are supposed to WRITE IT DOWN ON PAPER.

But then again, you could literally type that in password manager and store it in the cloud right?  You have to say... that is probably safe to do as long as your seed phrase is in written form whether on paper in apartment/house or in multiple safe deposit boxes right?

This is just sad...

I get the it gives you more security.  But haven't people messed it up by having this passphrase either by screwing it up or forgetting password etc?

Extending your seed with a passphrase isn't recommended for everyone. it's an advanced feature. People mess up and get hit by cars daily, but still the whole world enjoys having a walk. Take the required steps being suggested to you so you wont mess up.     

What about people who say they store it in usb drives and encrypt it?

USB drives, hard disks, and CDs break and fail. You are again suggesting a digital way of storing sensitive area instead of listening to years of suggestions. Don't you live in a humid region? I remember you had problems with the display on your Nano S and eventually it broke. The same can happen to your USB sticks.

[jerry0]

Okay so with usb stick etc, you say airgapped computer required, then obviously i can't do this.


Yea seems like almost everyone hates the idea of storing seed in password manager in cloud.


The extending your seed thing... i know its an advanced step but for some reason i just dont feel comfortable doing it with one device for some reason. 


Are you people storing passphrase in different location from your seed then?  Yea i know you should always write passphrase down just in case.  So its like you need to make sure this word is far away from your seed?  Then again, i got to assume people have it in their home as well with their seed but different location?


I use axcrypt to encrypt many of my documents.  That isn't safe at all?  I had no idea about open/close source but i always heard open is better. 


Yea i know usb stick, hard drive etc fails.  But the way people say keep multiple backups, it seems like ppl say just backup your seed in multiple usb sticks encrypted etc.  So it would be hard for all of those sticks to go bad... say imagine you had three of them etc.  Yea i know its digital way.. big difference is though its not uploaded to the cloud.  But of course you connect to a computer that might have malware/keylogger... then that isn't good.


I am in a hot/humid region throughout the year, thats correct.  But someone mentioned you could also put it in a airtight container with those gel packs to keep moisture out so thats a way to protect it.

[HCP]

Aaaaaaaaaand we're back to square 1.

Mate... if you want to put your seed in a cloud-based password manager... and you're comfortable with the associated risks of doing so, then go for it... millions of people do exactly the same with their logins to banks/email/websites etc... what could possibly go wrong? 

If you want to encrypt it with Axcrypt, and you're comfortable with the associated risks of doing so, then go for it...

Stop asking the same questions over and over again. They have all been answered multiple times.


We're going to say "store it offline", you say "what about USB?", people say "they fail", you say "what about using multiple ones? or what about using gel packs in an airtight container?"

Honestly, there are risks involved with EVERYTHING... you are not going to find a 100% failsafe solution to any of this.

- Human memory is "bad" and can fail
- Paper can be destroyed by fire/water
- Metal plates can be found/stolen
- Safety deposit boxes can be seized
- Online cloud storage can be hacked

You name ANY way of storing your seed and/or passphrase and I can probably name at least 5 ways that it can fail or be lost or stolen or hacked.

Just pick one that YOU are comfortable with... if that is an online password manager, then great! good for you... be happy, log out from Bitcointalk and go for a walk, touch some grass, get some fresh air... stop worrying about your seed/passphrase so much

[jerry0]

Hey HCP, yea i know almost everyone hates my idea of storing it in the cloud.  But obviously im not doing it the worst way possible... which would be unloading a document or picture unencrypted... in the cloud.... that would be probably the worst idea.  The same as if you just type it in wordpad and leave it on computer unecrypted etc. 



My method was... store it in password manager.. and upload it to cloud like dropbox/gmail.  No axcrypt.  I mentioned axcrypt because if someone types it in document... you use axcrpypt to encrypt it.  With password manager, well its already encrypted with your password manager.



Yea human memory is bad and will fail.  I got to wonder... what percentage of ppl actually remember the password in their head?  Some people say its easy if you keep repeating it everyday... that to me is beyond silly don't you agree?  I mean the seed is a damn 24 words.  I could see someone possibly doing this as use their memory if its 12 words... but double that is just ridiculous.  That to me is probably the worst way to do it even worst than storing it in the cloud unencrypted or taking a picture because you will easily forget it.


Paper can be destroyed by fire/water.  Yep.  And yea metal plates... i mean it probably looks important so it must mean something.


I didn't really even think about the safe deposit boxes can be seized until recently.  I only thought about it being drilled without owner consent by mistake or like the owner didn't pay the fee... or theft.  But i heard theft is much more rare on safe deposit boxes.


Online cloud storage... yea i know it can be hacked.



Can you give me at least 5 ways it can be fail or lost/stolen/damaged with safe deposit box though?  I could think of theft, drilled incorrectly, owner didn't pay the yearly fee, government seizure... and the bank manager/employee stealing.  So that is 5.  Is that the 5 ways you are also thinking or could you think of another reason for it?  But the main thing that you need to be concerned here is seizure... because with the other situations... they only get half your seed... not your full seed though so that isn't going to do them much with have a ledger seed right?






So let say you are not concerned about seizure.  If no concern for that, the multiple safe deposit boxes with seed broke in half in two different safety boxes probably would be best right?  Come to think of it... having a passphrase would pretty much secure it almost always here right?  Let say you type your passphrase in multiple usb sticks encrypted and even upload it in the cloud?  Then aren't you pretty safe then?



I also just thought about one last idea.  I know you going to hate it because well its an online cloud solution.  But you get a brand new computer or wiped computer... download password manager.  Enter half your seed on it.  Then upload it to dropbox or gmail.  Then you do the same thing with the other half of the seed in another password manager but do this with another dropbox/gmail of yours.  Then to make it even more secure, get a passphrase and put that in a different password manager copy.  While you are doing this, make sure this device is a brand new or wiped laptop. 



Then whenever you want to access your seed... only use this computer to or get a computer that is fully wiped... before logging into dropbox/gmail to access this in the cloud.  Obviously this is tedious and cost you more money if want an extra computer ... but wouldn't this make it pretty damn secure?  You got three different dropbox/gmail email accounts where you store the seeds broken in two and passphrase in the other.  So someone will need to hack all three of your cloud accounts... in order to access your seed.  And remember, they need to know each of your three email usernames and passwords... and of course your password manager password.  Though i probably would uses same password for all three password manager.  But they going to need to know all three different emails of yours.  Isn't this a damn tough task?  Think about it... imagine you only log into those dropbox/gmail accounts only to access your seed and you only do it on your clean machine. 



The only thing is you need to make sure you never forget your three email addresses and passwords and of course your password manager password.  That isn't that bad right?  I mean you could even write your passwords in your safe deposit boxes as well.  But they won't know what is the email connected to each of them.  And its not hard to remember three email address accounts.  And remembering your password manager password should be something you shouldn't forget if you use it for a while.


Do you see a flaw with this though? 


I would like to know has there been people who put their seed in multiple safe deposit boxes like in two of them broken in half and got their seed compromised?  I don't think i ever heard a case like this ever which make me think this is probably the way to go.

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

[HCP]

Oh FFS... you just don't get it do you?

OK, I'll make it easy for you... split your seed in half, put it in a separate safety deposit boxes. Encrypt your passphrase using Axcrypt, store it on multiple USBs stored in separate airtight boxes with gel packs.

"HCP said so, so it must be safe" /s


Are you happy now?


EDIT: just in case it wasn't clear to anyone... this post was total sarcasm.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Some people say its easy if you keep repeating it everyday... that to me is beyond silly don't you agree?

The only thing is you need to make sure you never forget your three email addresses and passwords and of course your password manager password.

So remembering a seed is "beyond silly", but remembering three different email addresses and four different passwords is totally fine and secure?

Do you see a flaw with this though?

For the n^th + 1 time: Cloud. Storage. Is. Not. Safe.

I would like to know has there been people who put their seed in multiple safe deposit boxes like in two of them broken in half and got their seed compromised?  I don't think i ever heard a case like this ever which make me think this is probably the way to go.

GREAT! You've finally settled on a solution. Just go and do it.

I've got to wonder how you've been storing your seed(s) for the last 7-8 years you've been involved in bitcoin. I've also got to wonder how you manage to buy and send bitcoin at all considering you have now spent literally years complicating a process which is as simple as writing 12 words on a piece of paper and putting them somewhere safe.

[Pmalek]

The extending your seed thing... i know its an advanced step but for some reason i just dont feel comfortable doing it with one device for some reason.

No one is forcing you to do it. You are the one putting unnecessary pressure on yourself to have a passphrase while you are still struggling with the basics. 

Are you people storing passphrase in different location from your seed then?  Yea i know you should always write passphrase down just in case.  So its like you need to make sure this word is far away from your seed?

Yes, they have to be separate one from the other. There is no purpose in having a passphrase to prove an additional layer of security if that security can be compromised by finding both the seed and passphrase on the same paper.   

But the way people say keep multiple backups, it seems like ppl say just backup your seed in multiple usb sticks encrypted etc. 

No one has said or recommended that to you. But for some reason, your brain understands tips like don't store your seed online or in a digital format as keep your seed on a password manager or USB drive. 

But someone mentioned you could also put it in a airtight container with those gel packs to keep moisture out so thats a way to protect it.

Or even better, don't store your seed on a USB drive.

Yea human memory is bad and will fail.  I got to wonder... what percentage of ppl actually remember the password in their head?

For the love of God, how would HCP or anyone else possible know that?   

I also just thought about one last idea.  I know you going to hate it because well its an online cloud solution.  But you get a brand new computer or wiped computer... download password manager.  Enter half your seed on it.  Then upload it to dropbox or gmail.  Then you do the same thing with the other half of the seed in another password manager but do this with another dropbox/gmail of yours.  Then to make it even more secure, get a passphrase and put that in a different password manager copy.  While you are doing this, make sure this device is a brand new or wiped laptop.

That's the way to do it, please do that.   

The only thing is you need to make sure you never forget your three email addresses and passwords and of course your password manager password.  That isn't that bad right?

No, it's revolutionary. Why memorize just one passphrase, when you can memorize 3 email addresses and their 3 passwords + the password of your password manager.

Do you see a flaw with this though?

None, whatsoever. It's so fulfilling to see that you have adopted so much knowledge in all these years. You were just a baby when you came here, and no you are ready to take on the world. 

[jerry0]

Some people say its easy if you keep repeating it everyday... that to me is beyond silly don't you agree?

The only thing is you need to make sure you never forget your three email addresses and passwords and of course your password manager password.

So remembering a seed is "beyond silly", but remembering three different email addresses and four different passwords is totally fine and secure?

Do you see a flaw with this though?

For the n^th + 1 time: Cloud. Storage. Is. Not. Safe.

I would like to know has there been people who put their seed in multiple safe deposit boxes like in two of them broken in half and got their seed compromised?  I don't think i ever heard a case like this ever which make me think this is probably the way to go.

GREAT! You've finally settled on a solution. Just go and do it.

I've got to wonder how you've been storing your seed(s) for the last 7-8 years you've been involved in bitcoin. I've also got to wonder how you manage to buy and send bitcoin at all considering you have now spent literally years complicating a process which is as simple as writing 12 words on a piece of paper and putting them somewhere safe.

I was storing my seed first on paper... then storing it in the cloud.  Then in other location on paper.  I do however many times put it back in the cloud.  Yes for some reason, i like storing it in the cloud.  I know everyone hates this reason.  Also imagine you consistently abroad and don't really have a permanent address back home in the US, its like you are limited so to speak don't you agree.  So i stay with friends because of this when i come back home temporarily.  I carry my ledger with me when i travel, but the seed, i am not carrying it on piece of paper with me etc.  I mean imagine you lose it or for some reason customs seizes your stuff and check your stuff and say they go through your wallet and see those paper and know what it is.  They could literally write it down or take picture or something... then what?  Only way i would every bring my seed on piece of paper when traveling would be if i do a passphrase.  You agree on that right?  Would any of you here feel comfortable carrying your seed on paper when flying etc?  Imagine just getting searched for no reason etc.



I used to use electrum to send/receive.  It was very easy for me to send/receive with electrum as i found it very simple to use.  I did have issues though with like asking questions such as how to change sending fees and receiving addresses.  But i found it much simpler than ledger live.  Back then when electrum had updates, i just updated it.  Then when those phishing attempts happen, i tried to not log into electrum until i got a hardware wallet.  



Back then writing the electrum seed, i didn't think much of it because well btc wasn't worth much at all back then.  I even carried with me at times but that a while back.  Then i though... storing it in password manager is lot easier because everything is online etc.

[jerry0]

The extending your seed thing... i know its an advanced step but for some reason i just dont feel comfortable doing it with one device for some reason.

No one is forcing you to do it. You are the one putting unnecessary pressure on yourself to have a passphrase while you are still struggling with the basics. 

Are you people storing passphrase in different location from your seed then?  Yea i know you should always write passphrase down just in case.  So its like you need to make sure this word is far away from your seed?

Yes, they have to be separate one from the other. There is no purpose in having a passphrase to prove an additional layer of security if that security can be compromised by finding both the seed and passphrase on the same paper.   

But the way people say keep multiple backups, it seems like ppl say just backup your seed in multiple usb sticks encrypted etc. 

No one has said or recommended that to you. But for some reason, your brain understands tips like don't store your seed online or in a digital format as keep your seed on a password manager or USB drive. 

But someone mentioned you could also put it in a airtight container with those gel packs to keep moisture out so thats a way to protect it.

Or even better, don't store your seed on a USB drive.

Yea human memory is bad and will fail.  I got to wonder... what percentage of ppl actually remember the password in their head?

For the love of God, how would HCP or anyone else possible know that?   

I also just thought about one last idea.  I know you going to hate it because well its an online cloud solution.  But you get a brand new computer or wiped computer... download password manager.  Enter half your seed on it.  Then upload it to dropbox or gmail.  Then you do the same thing with the other half of the seed in another password manager but do this with another dropbox/gmail of yours.  Then to make it even more secure, get a passphrase and put that in a different password manager copy.  While you are doing this, make sure this device is a brand new or wiped laptop.

That's the way to do it, please do that.   

The only thing is you need to make sure you never forget your three email addresses and passwords and of course your password manager password.  That isn't that bad right?

No, it's revolutionary. Why memorize just one passphrase, when you can memorize 3 email addresses and their 3 passwords + the password of your password manager.

Do you see a flaw with this though?

None, whatsoever. It's so fulfilling to see that you have adopted so much knowledge in all these years. You were just a baby when you came here, and no you are ready to take on the world. 

Well if whatever method i have is working now... wouldn't you say still do it?  I had my seed stored in password manager uploaded to the cloud for many years... with no issue.  Of course anything could happen to it.  The main concern for me would be downloading malware/keylogger because if that happens, my whole laptop is compromised and anything I type in etc... is viewable to hacker.


I actually would put a passphrase now... if say I just got a nano ledger the first time or if I got replacement nano ledger.  But a concern of mine now is buying another nano ledger since well they have that ledger leak etc.  Though that shouldn't matter since i already bought a nano ledger a while back from ledger since its already in their database?  You would agree typing your passphrase in password manager as another copy would certainly be fine right?


When you say if you have passphrase, you need to make sure its separate from your seed.  By that, you mean like not in the same location such as the piece of paper next to each other?  Or you mean make sure passphrase and seed are not the in the same apartment/house?  Would you say its fine for seed in one location of house... passphrase in another location? 


Well besides piece of paper, it seems almost everyone says storing it in encrypted usb stick seem to be either the second or third most popular way.  That is from looking at people responses which is why I say this.
I mean storing it in password manager and putting it in encrypted usb drive is what people mean right?  Because I do that with copy of my password manager on the usb.  However, I didn't encrypt the usb though... but password manager is encrypted.


Well I think trying to remember your seed is the most foolish thing one can do.


Well that new idea i thought about... I'm not really sure what flaws there are.  Three different emails and three different passwords with two seeds in two of the emails... and passphrase in last email and remember this is done in three different password managers.  By that, i do mean same password program though like 1password or keepass.    You write those passwords down on piece of paper to have multiple copies of it.  Then you make sure you remember three emails... and make sure you remember your password manager password.  You aren't trying to remember those three passwords as well.  And only log into those email accounts only when you going to access your seed and only do this on a machine that does not do anything else.  Thus anytime you need access to your seed... you do this and log into your three emails to get it.  Then log out.  You do not visit any sites you are not sure of.  Heck don't even visit youtube etc.  And if something happens to that computer, completely wipe it new or get a brand new computer etc.  Of course that computer would be connected to the internet as oppose to airgap.

[HCP]

Well that new idea i thought about... I'm not really sure what flaws there are.

The flaws have already been pointed out. You have gone from trying to simply, safely and securely store 12 words (and potentially a separate BIP39 passphrase)... to attempting to remember 3 different accounts (email+password) on some cloud based storage service to store 2 "half" seeds and your BIP39 passphrase.

If you already have your whole seed stored encrypted in one password manager... you may as well just leave it there. The setup seems to work for you, and you seem to be happy with it. It also seems to suit your "mobile" lifestyle.

With all of this 3 emails/3 passwords nonsense, all you are doing now is adding layer upon layer of complication that doesn't really add any security, but makes the likelihood of data loss higher.

K.I.S.S.

When you say if you have passphrase, you need to make sure its separate from your seed.  By that, you mean like not in the same location such as the piece of paper next to each other?  Or you mean make sure passphrase and seed are not the in the same apartment/house?  Would you say its fine for seed in one location of house... passphrase in another location? 

It really doesn't matter... as long as they are not kept together and not easily "linked" to each other... so don't write on the passphrase backup: "BIP39 passphrase"



This is how I imagine jerry0 staples 2 pieces of paper together:

source

[jerry0]

Well it went from remembering just your email/cloud username/password and your password manager password.... to now remembering three different usernames and password manager password.  The passwords for those three different emails would be written down etc... but anyone who finds it... wouldn't have a clue what email its linked to.


I mean... if you have three separate emails that you used... or you create them... wouldn't you say its kind of hard to forget your email if say two of them you use you been using for years?  Hard to forget those emails don't you agree?  Of course you have to remember one new email.  But yea higher chance of data loss this way etc.


And yea... the password manager password would be same for all three though.  Yea i think this is getting more complex... but it would be more safe than the way i talk about etc.  Well that does seem good for someone who has a mobile lifestyle... you have to agree on that right?  I mean... look at those ppl who travel a lot and use crypto for everything.  Storing it in cloud would make sense since they have it anywhere they go without losing a paper... but yea online risk is very high.



Well obviously keeping it simple is the best.


But the fact is for you to say almost every single way of storing your seed... you could think of at least 5 bad things about it... makes it really tough.


I also found out about coinbase vaults recently.  You obviously are completely against this right?  For some reason i think this is very good idea because i read you could whitelist addresses etc.  And thus you dont need to ever remember your seed or write it down. 


Also as long as you submit your documents, coinbase more often than not would reactivate your account.

[Pmalek]

I mean... if you have three separate emails that you used... or you create them... wouldn't you say its kind of hard to forget your email if say two of them you use you been using for years?  Hard to forget those emails don't you agree?  Of course you have to remember one new email.  But yea higher chance of data loss this way etc.

Do you think that one day you will get old and forgetful and your memory might not be as good as it is now? People get Alzheimer's disease or have traffic accidents where they lose their memory. You are coming up with all these ridiculous scenarios of someone stealing your coins or you storing them in various safety deposit boxes, but have you considered the consequences of a drunk driver hitting you with his car while you cross the road? What happens with your memory then? Or if you die. How will your heirs know your passwords without a paper copy? 

Well that does seem good for someone who has a mobile lifestyle... you have to agree on that right?  I mean... look at those ppl who travel a lot and use crypto for everything.  Storing it in cloud would make sense since they have it anywhere they go without losing a paper... but yea online risk is very high.

What is it exactly that you want us to say? It feels like you are looking for recognition that your way of doing things is good and the recommendations being thrown your way are just walls of text that shouldn't be considered.

I also found out about coinbase vaults recently.  You obviously are completely against this right?  For some reason i think this is very good idea because i read you could whitelist addresses etc.  And thus you dont need to ever remember your seed or write it down.

Whitelisting addresses makes it safe to store coins on a centralized exchange? You really don't understand the basics of financial freedom or being in true possession of your money. 

Also as long as you submit your documents, coinbase more often than not would reactivate your account.

If more often than not is fine with you, what are you waiting for? Give them everything.

[HCP]

But the fact is for you to say almost every single way of storing your seed... you could think of at least 5 bad things about it... makes it really tough.

Which is why I have said multiple times... figure out what you're comfortable with and do it.

Every single way of storing your seed/passphrase has some sort of risk involved. You will not find a 100% safe way of doing it. It's just not possible. So, if you think having 3 emails/3 passwords etc works for you... then go for it.

[jerry0]

I'm well aware of something going wrong.  Whether you forget it or something happens and lose your memory. 



So that is why i thought putting seeds broken in two pieces in two separate safe deposit boxes seem to be the best method.  The only main concern is if like the government go and seize your boxes.  Then you are screwed.  I mean with a thief or bank employee... all they going to get is one seed.  They can't do anything with that.  Unless they go after your second seed.  How they going to know that especially a thief?  Now some weird and almost unlikely scenario is if that bank manager/employee finds out you have a safe deposit box at another bank... and their friend or someone they know works at that bank and then tries to get in that box.  But the odds of anything like that is almost remotely impossible.  So its like if the government seizes your things, then you are screwed.



I get what you mean with whitelisting addresses not giving you financial freedom.



Well i did notice on reddit on coinbase, tons of people everyday seem to file complaints and complain they are hacked.  I had no idea of this.  Did any of you aware of this?  Literally, theres complaints everyday of accounts getting hacked.  In those cases, all the customers are screwed right since its not coinbase fault but the customers negligence?



Well a consideration I thought was if you want to store your coins long term in exchange, you could do it with coinbase and their vaults.  That way if anything happens, i believe you have up to two days or so to do something about it because with vaults on coinbase, you can't withdraw for two days and they do more security checks etc.

[HCP]

... blah blah blah ignoring answers being given...

... more blah blah blah ignoring answer being given...

... So, if you think having 3 emails/3 passwords etc works for you... then go for it.

[dkbit98]

This topic has nothing to do with 25th Word in Nano Ledger S anymore...
I see no other solution but to report jerry0's post because of repeated burst posting, making consecutive posts, repeated spamming with same questions, thread hijacking, and you can find more information here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5336433.0

[Pmalek]

Well i did notice on reddit on coinbase, tons of people everyday seem to file complaints and complain they are hacked.  I had no idea of this.  Did any of you aware of this?  Literally, theres complaints everyday of accounts getting hacked.  In those cases, all the customers are screwed right since its not coinbase fault but the customers negligence?

And tomorrow, one of those complaints could be yours for failing to understand anything people have told you in the last 3-4 years.

To wrap up:
The best thing for you jerry0, is to keep your coins on Coinbase.
For all other beginners reading this thread, don't be like jerry. You know what to do.   

[jerry0]

Ok so this topic has now went off topic since it was about the 25th word.


So in summary, don't do this unless you are for sure you know what you are doing right?  I did read someone on reddit mention when they restored their seed... and then their seed with the 25th word, it somehow showed that account as not hidden but like another account under the regular pin and people said you must have created another account under the regular pin and not under the 25th word.


I know people say the more you complicate things, the more things can go wrong etc.  If I had an extra nano ledger s with me now, i would definitely test this..  But having one device, im concerned something can go wrong etc.

[jerry0]

I got to ask this.


But what percentage of nano ledger s or trezor wallets are not accessible because the user forgot the 25th Word?  I got to assume this happens much more than talked about?



But the big difference is even if you forget your 25th Word, well you have as many tries as possible right?  I remember that story of a guy who forgot his passphrase or pin but then only had like three tries remaining.  Or if someone set up a 25th Word but somehow messed the process up somehow?

[Rath_]

But what percentage of nano ledger s or trezor wallets are not accessible because the user forgot the 25th Word?  I got to assume this happens much more than talked about?

10%, 25%, 75%, 100%... maybe 200%? Who knows?

But the big difference is even if you forget your 25th Word, well you have as many tries as possible right?

Yes. If you have your seed then you can even use third-party software (btcrecover) to guess the lost passphrase. It could take a lot of time, though.

I remember that story of a guy who forgot his passphrase or pin but then only had like three tries remaining.

Trezor devices reset after 16 invalid PIN attempts. Every time you enter a wrong PIN, the delay between attempts increases twofold. Ledger devices reset after 3 invalid attempts and there is no delay.

[Lucius]

I remember that story of a guy who forgot his passphrase or pin but then only had like three tries remaining.

Don’t confuse some other things you read with hardware wallets, because the man you’re probably referring to wasn’t using Nano S, but IronKey storage that automatically encrypts itself after 10 failed attempts. If you are already so afraid that you will forget your passphrase, do not use this option - it is intended only for experienced users.

[dkbit98]

Oh no... Jerry is back with his 1001 new questions and now he wants to see exact percentage of people who ''forgot'' their passphrase  

Instead of remembering 25th word and depending on such fragile thing as human memory, it is much easier and better to write passphrase and make backup SEPARATLY from your seed words.
Than again, you can always forget where you stored your seed words and passphrase, your wallet, car keys and everything else.

[xenon131]

I got to ask this.


But the big difference is even if you forget your 25th Word, well you have as many tries as possible right?  I remember that story of a guy who forgot his passphrase or pin but then only had like three tries remaining.  Or if someone set up a 25th Word but somehow messed the process up somehow?

 Pay attention to derivation path.

[HCP]

By and large, using ^{iancoleman  bip39 tool} offline you may drill your 25h word 365x24x7 in the course of all your live without any  consequences.

That is possibly one of the worst ways you could attempt to bruteforce a BIP39 passphrase.

But the big difference is even if you forget your 25th Word, well you have as many tries as possible right?  I remember that story of a guy who forgot his passphrase or pin but then only had like three tries remaining.  Or if someone set up a 25th Word but somehow messed the process up somehow?

Correct... you're probably thinking of the guy who lost the PIN to his Trezor... and the wait time was growing exponentially: https://www.wired.com/story/i-forgot-my-pin-an-epic-tale-of-losing-dollar30000-in-bitcoin/


Device PINs are often set to wipe the device (ie. Ledger), increase the wait time (Trezor, older Coldcards) or even brick the device completely (new Coldcards).

However, the BIP39 passphrase is a completely different mechanism... and there is no such thing as an "invalid" BIP39 passphrase, as anything you enter will generate a valid seed, so it's impossible for a device to detect if you've used the wrong passphrase.

[Pmalek]

But what percentage of nano ledger s or trezor wallets are not accessible because the user forgot the 25th Word?  I got to assume this happens much more than talked about?

What percentage of women like men wearing while polo shirts? No one keeps track of stuff like that. And you said it yourself, it probably happens more often than what is publicly known, so even if we had a percentage for you, it wouldn't be accurate.

In the month that you were gone, have you still not made up your mind about whether or not to add a passphrase? Since you are sticking to your own methods of storing your recovery phrase in password managers and digital storage options, what's the point in considering passphrases?

Here is a percentage question for you. What is the chance that you will adopt any of the advice and knowledge people give you? 1%, 5%, more?   

[jerry0]

Well I didn't use this extra word because im concerned of something wrong happening.  When i check reddit, i see many people mention how they can't access their wallet and either that extra word is incorrect.. or it ws correct but then it showed no coins on it.


Again most people agree this is an advanced feature and should only be used if you know what you are doing right?  And again if you were to do this... its preferable to do this with having two nano ledger s right? 



When i asked about this a while back, i mentioned how i kept btc in my nano ledger s.  And i wanted to do this extra word but if i do this, i need to send the majority of my coins from my current wallet to the new hidden wallet.  And someone mentioned you could still do this... just make sure your seed is correct and you have it.  But when you do this, don't you still need to put wrong pin three times to reset it?  So when you create a new wallet and get a new seed, then create a passphrase, then reset it and input the new seed to make sure it works.  Then send tiny amount of btc to both of these new wallets... the new wallet and hidden.  But before you do this, you need to input your old seed back into your nano ledger s to send it.  But dont you need to make sure you copy your new btc address and new hidden btc address on your computer... and then you need to copy/paste that seed into it?



Then once it shows the tiny amount of btc in both the new wallet and new hidden wallet... then send the majority of your coins to the new hidden wallet?



It seems like there could be easily an error here if you trying to do this with just one nano ledger s... assuming you have your coins stored there right now?  Because you need to reset devices multiple times during this process?

[o_e_l_e_o]

When i check reddit, i see many people mention how they can't access their wallet and either that extra word is incorrect.. or it ws correct but then it showed no coins on it.

If their passphrase is incorrect, then that is their fault for not backing it up properly. If their passphrase is "correct" but restores the wrong wallet, then it is actually incorrect and again it is their fault for not backing it up properly. There are no known cases of the correct seed phrase and the correct passphrase generating the wrong wallet.

And again if you were to do this... its preferable to do this with having two nano ledger s right?

There is absolutely no need to have two hardware devices to use a passphrase. On the Ledger Nano you are already using, simply navigate to Settings -> Passphrase -> Set temporary, and choose and confirm a passphrase. Hey presto, you have access to passphrased wallets. If you want to go back to your main wallets, simply disconnect and reconnect your device and enter your usual PIN. There is no risk to your main wallets by using a passphrase as long as you follow the instructions properly.

It seems like there could be easily an error here if you trying to do this with just one nano ledger s... assuming you have your coins stored there right now?  Because you need to reset devices multiple times during this process?

So? I've reset and restored hardware wallets multiple times, I've formatted cold storage devices and restored cold wallets multiple times, I've used probably about 20+ different seed phrases and 40+ different passphrases over the years, I've performed countless bitcoin transactions, and I've literally never made a mistake once. Just be meticulous with double or even triple checking everything as you go.

[HCP]

Well I didn't use this extra word because im concerned of something wrong happening.  When i check reddit, i see many people mention how they can't access their wallet and either that extra word is incorrect.. or it ws correct but then it showed no coins on it.

Stop looking at reddit... it's full of "noisy" people who make mistakes and then blame everything and everyone but themselves

I'm not aware of any proven instance of someone having the correct seed and correct passphrase and generating a different wallet. However, I have seen lots of people swearing black and blue that they are "110% sure" that they have the correct seed and correct passphrase and things are not working... and then I've seen a few instances where 6 months later they post that they had a word wrong or found another piece of paper with the actual seed or btcrecover identified a small typo etc.

Again most people agree this is an advanced feature and should only be used if you know what you are doing right?  And again if you were to do this... its preferable to do this with having two nano ledger s right?
...
When i asked about this a while back, i mentioned how i kept btc in my nano ledger s.  And i wanted to do this extra word but if i do this, i need to send the majority of my coins from my current wallet to the new hidden wallet.  And someone mentioned you could still do this... just make sure your seed is correct and you have it.  But when you do this, don't you still need to put wrong pin three times to reset it?  So when you create a new wallet and get a new seed, then create a passphrase, then reset it and input the new seed to make sure it works.

You don't need 2 devices to do this... and you don't need to reset anything... just create a passphrase (either temporary or assigned to 2nd PIN) and you can access the "hidden" wallet... there is no need to reset your device and create a new seed just to create a passphrase.

[jerry0]

Okay the more I think about this... I think most people should probably do it?


The thing right now is im outside the US and don't have my seed with me at the moment.  I do have my nano ledger s.  So the next time im back in the US and want to do this... I will most likely order another
nano ledger s.


Then when I receive it, generate the seed and put it wrong three times to reset it.  Then get a new seed.  Then send a tiny amount of btc to the new nano ledger.  Then put wrong pin three times to reset it.


Then enter the new seed i wrote down to see if the tiny amount of btc I sent is there.  Once its there... the seed is correct. 


Then I would create a new seed and then write my own passphrase word?  Or that is not necessary to generate a new second seed for the new nano ledger?  Once I do that... put wrong pin three times for that hidden account.  Then enter that new second seed i wrote down to restore it. 


Then I would send a tiny amount of btc from my original nano ledger to the new nano ledger hidden address.  So after this is done... I will have tiny amount of btc in the new nano ledger wallet and the hidden wallet.


Then put wrong pin in the new nano ledger.  Enter the new seed to restore it.  But am I suppose to have one seed or two seeds for the new nano ledger if i want it to have a main wallet and hidden wallet?

[jerry0]

Because after I check my nano ledger s and see the seed and the passphrase is correct in the hidden wallet... then i would just send all my btc from my old nano ledger s to the hidden wallet right?


Thus in the end, I will have a tiny amount of btc in the new nano ledger main wallet... and pretty much all the btc in the new nano ledger hidden wallet?


I know its mentioned I could still do this with just my one current nano ledger s but wouldn't it be very easy to make a mistake somehow?  Of course you need to make sure your seed is correct before you do any of it.


But i feel like getting a second nano ledger would make this process much easier?


But If I get a second nano ledger, couldn't i just enter my seed into that one and restore my btc there... so i dont want to do all those steps?  Because well i still have my current nano ledger?




Because when you think about it... if you do the 25th word aka passphrase with the hidden account... well even if your seed is stored in one location whether its in your apartment or in a bank safe deposit or even in the cloud or in a password manager, well even if its exposed... as long as you have that passphrase and it isn't written down... aren't you generally safe?


Or say you have the seed in your apartment or bank safe deposit box.  And say you write your passphrase in a password manager and save it in the cloud... wouldn't that be still safe?


Because if someone has your seed... they only have access to your main wallet and not your hidden wallet.  So wouldn't that make having this passphrase good in that you don't have to store your seed in multiple locations or do that thing where you store your seed in two of three places?  Of course you need to make sure you remember you passphrase.



But if your passphrase isn't a real complex word... is it still not that good?



Example your passphrase is




jerrywentoverthereagain

jerrylikestodrinkvodka0



I mean that is pretty good passphrase as long as you can remember it or write it down somewhere or store it in password manager as long as your seed isn't online?

[n0nce]

~

You wrote a lot of steps, and I don't think it's this complicated, but also I haven't tried using BIP39 passphrase (that's where the 25th word - feature is defined) on a Ledger.

Electrum and some other wallets call the passphrase a "seed extension", "extension word" or "13th/25th word". The BIP39 standard defines a way of passphrase-protecting a seed phrase. A similar scheme is also used in the Electrum standard. If a passphrase is not present, an empty string "" is used instead.

You just keep your existing 24 or 12 word seed backup, so you don't even need to access it for creating a password protected wallet.
Normally, you plug in your hardware wallet, enter a new password and you're in a new fresh wallet with new private keys and addresses.

When you want to restore that hidden / password protected wallet, you will need the 24 / 12 word seed backup AND that password that you chose.

If you mistype the password, you will land in a new password protected wallet that is derived from the same 24 / 12 words plus this new (wrong) password. So you've essentially created another password protected wallet. But it's not an issue. Just re-plug the device and enter the correct password and you will arrive in the wallet with your funds. You can have an unlimited amount of wallets, every one defined by its own password. Some people like to use this feature simply to have separate wallets on one device, so they use something simple that offers no extra security though. For example, the password 'savings' for their savings wallet, password 'shopping' for grocery shopping wallet, you get the idea For security, don't use words or sentences, those can be bruteforced with wordlists.

The cool thing about this is plausible deniability. You can have one wallet only accessible through a password which has the majority of your holding while the wallet with password '' (empty password - the default and what is shown immediately when plugging in the device), can have a small amount.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Or that is not necessary to generate a new second seed for the new nano ledger?

Not necessary, and indeed, defeats the purpose of having a passphrased wallet hidden behind the main wallet if the two wallets you are setting up are on different seed phrases.

But am I suppose to have one seed or two seeds for the new nano ledger if i want it to have a main wallet and hidden wallet?

One seed phrase. Generate a new seed phrase, write it down, and send a small amount of coins to that wallet. Perform a seed phrase recovery check using the Recovery Check app, or reset the hardware wallet and restore it to ensure your seed phrase is correct. Then go in to options and set a temporary passphrase. Send a small amount of coins to that wallet. Unplug and replug your Ledger Nano, go back in to options, set a temporary passphrase, and enter your passphrase again to ensure you can recover the same wallet.

Because after I check my nano ledger s and see the seed and the passphrase is correct in the hidden wallet... then i would just send all my btc from my old nano ledger s to the hidden wallet right?

If you like.

But i feel like getting a second nano ledger would make this process much easier?

If you will be more comfortable using two devices, then just do that.

Because when you think about it... if you do the 25th word aka passphrase with the hidden account... well even if your seed is stored in one location whether its in your apartment or in a bank safe deposit or even in the cloud or in a password manager, well even if its exposed... as long as you have that passphrase and it isn't written down... aren't you generally safe?

Provided your passphrase is not brute-forceable and hasn't also been compromised, then yes. You really need to move away from the idea of storing anything in a password manager or in the cloud, though.

[n0nce]

Because when you think about it... if you do the 25th word aka passphrase with the hidden account... well even if your seed is stored in one location whether its in your apartment or in a bank safe deposit or even in the cloud or in a password manager, well even if its exposed... as long as you have that passphrase and it isn't written down... aren't you generally safe?

Provided your passphrase is not brute-forceable and hasn't also been compromised, then yes. You really need to move away from the idea of storing anything in a password manager or in the cloud, though.

I feel the importance of this is highly underrated in newcomers. Generally, most peoples' understanding of a secure passphrase is far off from reality. I already saw a few examples in this thread of passphrases that people wanted to use, which were completely unsuited as a sole mean of security due to using 3 or 4 dictionary words.

Look at this:

jerrywentoverthereagain
jerrylikestodrinkvodka0

I mean that is pretty good passphrase as long as you can remember it or write it down somewhere or store it in password manager as long as your seed isn't online?

I don't think most people would choose a passphrase that has the same entropy as the 24-word seed, so storing the seed in the cloud in plain text (or any other insecure way - this includes almost anything digital like files or non-encrypted USB sticks etc.) and relying on the passphrase is a very bad idea, since it will lead to a provably less secure setup.

[PrimeNumber7]

Because when you think about it... if you do the 25th word aka passphrase with the hidden account... well even if your seed is stored in one location whether its in your apartment or in a bank safe deposit or even in the cloud or in a password manager, well even if its exposed... as long as you have that passphrase and it isn't written down... aren't you generally safe?

You should always have at least 3 copies of your entire seed, including any information needed to access your coin, such as your 25th word and/or decryption key. It is acceptable to store portions of the above separately if that is what your risk assumptions require.

If your seed is securing more than nominal amounts of coin, storing your seed in the cloud is not a good idea. Most cloud storage providers are able to reliably prevent attackers from being able to access their customers' accounts in mass, but there is still the risk of targeted attacks. If an attacker can gain access to your seed, they can check more or less every "word" for the 25th word in a seed nearly instantly. If you are using cloud storage to store your seed, it is probably a safe assumption that you are using a medium of storage that is easily accessible to an adversary to store the 25th word of your seed.

If you don't store the 25th word of your seed, you are risking that you will lose access to your coin. There are many things that will potentially cause the human brain to forget a passphrase. The chances you forget your passphrase go up as it increases in complexity, and the less complex your passphrase is, the easier it will be for an adversary to access your coin if they can access the first 24 words of your seed.

[HCP]

But if your passphrase isn't a real complex word... is it still not that good?

Example your passphrase is

jerrywentoverthereagain
jerrylikestodrinkvodka0

I mean that is pretty good passphrase as long as you can remember it or write it down somewhere or store it in password manager as long as your seed isn't online?

Neither of those are good passphrases. They are "long"... but they are not "good". Length is not necessarily directly proportional to security. It can help, but isn't necessarily the only factor.

For example, thequickbrownfoxjumpedoverthelazydog is a really long password, but because it is essentially just 9 common english words concatenated together, it's probably only marginally more secure than a 9 character password.

Another thing to remember is that just like "characters" in a password should be random... your "word" selection should be too.

Ie. "lounge fall lung hole award" is arguably more secure than "jerry went over there again"

[n0nce]

Neither of those are good passphrases. They are "long"... but they are not "good". Length is not necessarily directly proportional to security. It can help, but isn't necessarily the only factor.

For example, thequickbrownfoxjumpedoverthelazydog is a really long password, but because it is essentially just 9 common english words concatenated together, it's probably only marginally more secure than a 9 character password.

A while ago, I was cracking passwords of encrypted files, and a truly random, 9 character password, which includes special characters as well as alphanumerics, already took a whole lot of time to bruteforce on consumer hardware. However, the sentence-type password would have been guessed in probably seconds using a wordlist-based approach.
So even a shorter password can be more secure if it's random actually.

[jerry0]

Okay still deciding on whether I should do this or not.  Again I only have just my current nano ledger s.  Thus I would feel a bit more comfortable doing this if I had an extra one.  But anyone done this on their only wallet?



But to confirm... with my current seed now... if I wanted to add the 25th word do it... I would not need to generate a new seed right?  Thus it would be my current seed which is my balance now.  But when I create the 25th word passphrase to it... thats going to be another wallet.  So I would then have to transfer the bulk of my btc from my current btc wallet address to the new one?  So I also have to do this with my BCH?  Those are the only two apps I have in my nano ledger s now where I have a current balance.  I do have the bitcoin gold app downloaded as well to my nano ledger s but do not have a balance there.



The thing is when you do this, almost all of you will send a very tiny amount of btc such as 0.0001 from your current btc address to the new passphrase one right?  Then once it goes through, you then send the bulk of it in the second transaction?  Or do you try to reset your device once and enter your seed again in it before you do this?  I got to assume people with a lot of btc... like even 1 btc is a lot these days, have to be extremely careful when doing this?  I got to imagine someone with like 5 btc for example.  Do they feel comfortable sending that much in one transaction to move from their current btc address to the passphrase btc hidden wallet?  Because its like if someone has a good amount of btc but want it put in the hidden wallet with the passphrase, but in order to do this, they need to send that amount of btc from one address to another.  Certainly that has to cause some nervousness and anxiety in people?  Like imagine someone who has 10 btc or even more.  I mean wouldn't people like that probably send that btc in increments?  And obviously they would send with a high sending fee because they want the money to hit the other btc address quickly? 

[Rath_]

with my current seed now... if I wanted to add the 25th word do it... I would not need to generate a new seed right?

Yes.

But when I create the 25th word passphrase to it... thats going to be another wallet.

Correct. If you attach your passphrase to a PIN, you will be able to switch between both wallets easily.

So I would then have to transfer the bulk of my btc from my current btc wallet address to the new one?  So I also have to do this with my BCH?

Yes.

Or do you try to reset your device once and enter your seed again in it before you do this?

I would use the Recovery Check app instead.

[Pmalek]

Or do you try to reset your device once and enter your seed again in it before you do this?

I would use the Recovery Check app instead.

I think there were some problems with this app in the recent past where it showed that a seed was wrong even though it was the correct one. I think those problems started occurring with the Nano X after the most recent firmware upgrade.

@jerry0
You can send a little bit from your normal (non-passphrased wallet) to your passphrased one. Reset the wallet to factory settings, remove the accounts in your Ledger Live portfolio, recover your passphrased wallet, scan for existing accounts, and add them. The LL app should show that small amount you sent.

Alternatively, you can just write down or save the first generated address once you create your passphrased account. After that you reset the wallet, remove all accounts from your LL portfolio, recover your wallet, re-add the accounts and check that the first generated address matches the one you saved previously.       

[Lucius]

Okay still deciding on whether I should do this or not.  

After 6 pages of this thread and more than 1 year since you asked the question?

I'm pretty sure people like you shouldn't use features that are clearly defined as options only recommended for advanced users. I'm pretty sure that using this option with you would lead to even more confusion, so I'll put what Ledger says about your doubt once again - read it a few dozen times if necessary.

Set up a passphrase to add a layer of security to your crypto assets. This option is only recommended for advanced users. Carefully read this article before setting up a passphrase. The recovery phrase and passphrase functionalities enable a range of security setups. You may use them to design the security strategy that meets your personal situation. Please do not overcomplicate things, the best security setup is one that you master and can execute with confidence.

[HCP]

I'm going to have to agree with Lucius here... if you're not comfortable with enabling the passphrase option on your Ledger device, then please just don't use it.