25th Word in Nano Ledger S

[jerry0]

So I heard a while back you could add a 25th word or phrase to your nano ledger s.  I also heard this could be done in electrum with an additional word.



I'm curious but has anyone here done this?  I looked at ledger site and apparently there are very little limitations to it... said it could be mix of letters, numbers and characters... and max is 100 characters.  It could be capital or lowercase as well?



I had thought the last word you add had to be from that 2000+ word list which wouldn't even make it that secure since if someone has your seed, they could type the last word for every single word in the word list and get there.



Now this seems unbelievable because wouldn't this provide you as much security as you can?  So let say someone has access to your whole seed on nano ledger s.   If you put in another word, aren't they basically screwed them almost unless you pick a poor password?  



Example imagine your word/paraphrase was like


dogwenttotheotherside

catwenttoeatsomechipsagain9

ieatchipswithsoda



Now if someone has your seed, and then need to crack the last word... wouldn't that be very hard?  


Now could I actually add a 25th Word right now to my nano ledger s?  But im concerned about making a mistake though... but its simple right?  Or I would need a completely new seed to do this?


Because if I could... then wouldn't your security be very strong then even if someone found your seed?  Obviously you need to make sure you remember your last word.  

[Rath_]

I'm curious but has anyone here done this? [...] It could be capital or lowercase as well?

Yes, you can use both capital and small letters. Quite a few people here use passphrases.

Now if someone has your seed, and then need to crack the last word... wouldn't that be very hard?

That's the whole point. In fact, it is impossible to tell if you are using a passphrase. You could leave some small part of your funds on the non-passphrase protected account to mislead potential attacker.

Now could I actually add a 25th Word right now to my nano ledger s?  But im concerned about making a mistake though... but its simple right?  Or I would need a completely new seed to do this?

You don't need a new seed to set up a passphrase. Here's a guide for Ledger Nano S. You can either enter the passphrase every time you connect your device or attach it to a separate PIN. If you ever need to recover your coins using, for example, Electrum, you will have to enter your passphrase as an additional word of your seed; not your PIN. The additional PIN is just for the convenience.

[hosseinimr93]

In addition to the extra layer of security that can be provided using custom words, one of their uses is that, you can make multiple wallets using a single seed phrase.
If you need multiple wallets, you don't have to keep one seed phrase for each of your wallets. Instead of having multiple seed phrases, you can have a single seed phrase and multiple passphrases.
(Credits for the idea goes to Abdussamad.)

[jerry0]

Okay so do most ppl also have two pins then?

I want to do the 25th Word with my current seed at the moment.  Best way to do this?  Do i want two pins or not?

[Rath_]

Okay so do most ppl also have two pins then?

Probably. It's more convenient. It's a pain to enter a complex passphrase on such a small device.

I want to do the 25th Word with my current seed at the moment.  Best way to do this?  Do i want two pins or not?

The passphrase will be stored in the Secure Element just like your private keys if you decide to use the secondary PIN. If you are comfortable with that then go for it.

[bob123]

Okay so do most ppl also have two pins then?

I guess the majority doesn't even know that this feature exists.

I want to do the 25th Word with my current seed at the moment.  Best way to do this?  Do i want two pins or not?

Check out the BIP39 Github page, especially the part about the passphrase.
You need to decide for yourself whether you want to use it.

It definitely adds another layer of security.

The "best way" do to this, would be to go to ledger.com and check their FAQ on how to set it up.
Or google it, there are tons of tutorials available.

[Lucius]

The "best way" do to this, would be to go to ledger.com and check their FAQ on how to set it up.
Or google it, there are tons of tutorials available.

Considering the way jerry0 approaches things like this, I would advise him not to play with something so sensitive, because after all, this feature is for more experienced users who don’t need a week to insert 24 words into their new hardware wallet. After all, in addition to additional seed protection, this method is important for those who want to protect themselves in the event of a physical attack.

Set up a passphrase to add a layer of security to your crypto assets. This option is only recommended for advanced users. Carefully read this article before setting up a passphrase. The recovery phrase and passphrase functionalities enable a range of security setups. You may use them to design the security strategy that meets your personal situation. Please do not overcomplicate things, the best security setup is one that you master and can execute with confidence.

[bitmover]

I want to do the 25th Word with my current seed at the moment.  Best way to do this?  Do i want two pins or not?

It definitely adds another layer of security.

The "best way" do to this, would be to go to ledger.com and check their FAQ on how to set it up.
Or google it, there are tons of tutorials available.

The most important benefit of using a passphrase IMO is defending yourself against a physical/extortion attack.


When you have 2 PINs in your ledger nano, you actually have 2 wallets. You can keep, for example, 70% of your funds in a hidden wallet (the one with the passphrase)

Let's suppose someone tries to extort you "I know you have bitcoins inside this device. Give it to me now".
You just unlock your wallet with your first PIN and give to him your small savings.

[jerry0]

The "best way" do to this, would be to go to ledger.com and check their FAQ on how to set it up.
Or google it, there are tons of tutorials available.

Considering the way jerry0 approaches things like this, I would advise him not to play with something so sensitive, because after all, this feature is for more experienced users who don’t need a week to insert 24 words into their new hardware wallet. After all, in addition to additional seed protection, this method is important for those who want to protect themselves in the event of a physical attack.

Set up a passphrase to add a layer of security to your crypto assets. This option is only recommended for advanced users. Carefully read this article before setting up a passphrase. The recovery phrase and passphrase functionalities enable a range of security setups. You may use them to design the security strategy that meets your personal situation. Please do not overcomplicate things, the best security setup is one that you master and can execute with confidence.

Yea when I do things, I am very careful with it.  So with this... im a bit hesistant because say i type in the 25th Word, well i have to make sure its correct and look at it few times.  Also i can't make it way too long otherwise it would be me looking at it over and over again.


But would a passphrase like the ones i mentioned above be decent though?  I obviously need to make sure its easy to remember.  But if you put a very simple passphrase like the word motorola to make it simple, would it be easy for someone to brute force it assuming they have the whole word list but just missing the passphrase?  Or would someone think wait a minute... this might not even be the seed after typing all the words?  I assume most ppl dont know about this 25th Word right?  Thing is had I set this up sooner like originally, I would feel much more safer in a way.



But in that example with the guy using moon as his passphrase, how safe would his seed be if someone found his entire seed but do not know about his passphrase as moon?


I definitely want this passphrase in addition... but concerned i might mess something up in the process... but then again its hard right? Because you need to type this passphrase twice to confirm it... then it shows you the passphrase before you click okay... so as long as you make sure you remember it... then you are fine right?  Like had i done this originally when i first got the nano ledger s... i would feel much better because I did it correctly... as oppose to now... doing it on an already used ledger. 

[jerry0]

My bigger concern is someone finding the seed.  But yes the physical/extortion thing is very important.



But if you set a 25th Word, do you still need to set up 2 pins though?  For me, the bigger security here is a 25th Word so if someone has my full seed... they still need the 25th Word.



Now if you set up 2 pins, well the one you create from now is going to be the hidden wallet or real wallet?  I was confused watching the video of it but the one with your savings in it... that is the hidden wallet?  The one you would show to a thief would be the spending wallet?  So the pin i have now... that has all my coins.  But the new pin that i create, after its done... it has no coins in it right?  Thus i need to move a tiny bit of coins from my wallet to this small coin wallet... is that correct?  So you need to like manually transfer the btc to it right?  So say you have 2 btc in your main wallet just to make it simple, you probably transfer like 0.2 to it?



So now you have 1.8 btc in your main wallet... and 0.2 btc in your second wallet right?  So then everytime you connect the nano ledger s to your laptop, it first ask for your passphrase.  You enter that.  Then it ask for your pin.  Now you have choice of entering your original pin which has most of your savings... or you choose the other pin which has a small amount of your savings right?  Now here is where im a bit confused.  So whichever pin you enter... you still need to use ledger live to send.  But isn't the issue here ledger live would show your coins in both pin wallets though?  So if you enter the smaller saving wallet... when you go to your accounts in ledger live, it would show all your wallets?  I have to assume it would only show the smaller wallet right?  The same when you log into the bigger saving wallet... it show only the bigger saving wallet and that 1.8 btc only?



Has anyone here done this to their already nano ledger s with their full seed?  I would feel much more comfortable doing this if say i was using a brand new ledger nano s to try... or if i had another nano ledger s to try this on... thus I would create new seed on new nano ledger and then put passphrase and two pins... then send tiny amount of btc from my nano ledger s to it... then test it on another wallet so if mistake, no big deal.



But its very hard to make a mistake here or not?  I do notice it says for advanced users only... but has anyone had a case where they mess this up?  Because im thinking for the passphrase if i do it... i cannot make it so complicated with numbers and making it a simple phrase.  Thoughts on this? 

[Rath_]

But if you set a 25th Word, do you still need to set up 2 pins though?

No, you can enter the passphrase every time manually. See the answer below.

So then everytime you connect the nano ledger s to your laptop, it first ask for your passphrase.

No. Your Ledger won't ask you for a passphrase. If you decide not to use the additional PIN then you will have to follow all steps from the "Option 2" every time you restart your device.

Now if you set up 2 pins, well the one you create from now is going to be the hidden wallet or real wallet?

The second PIN will allow you to access the passphrase protected (hidden) wallet.

So say you have 2 btc in your main wallet just to make it simple, you probably transfer like 0.2 to it?

Why would you transfer only 0.2 BTC to your hidden wallet? If someone gained access to your seed, they would be able to access the remaining 1.8 BTC without any effort.

But isn't the issue here ledger live would show your coins in both pin wallets though?

If you add accounts from both wallets then they will be visible all the time in Ledger Live. You can mitigate this by deleting your hidden account and readding it whenever you need it.

[jerry0]

Okay so do most people just enter a passphrase then and don't deal with the 2 pins to those who do the 25th passphrase?


Oh wait, even if you put a passphrase, when you connect to ledger, it will just ask you for your regular pin right?  Because you only need to enter that passphrase when you enter your entire 24 word seed?  I was confused here.


I thought the 2nd pin was for the second wallet which is created... which would be like the smaller balance wallet...


So when you create a 2nd pin, that is your big balance wallet?  But when you create a 2nd pin, your balance there is 0 right?  So you would send 1.8 btc to this wallet?  Let's assuming 2 btc to make it simple.
When you enter your original pin, you would then see 0.2 btc?


Also when you send btc from one wallet to another, you are paying a fee right like as if you are sending btc to someone else?  Or is this just like a btc transfer between your wallets and there is no fee... like similar to how you have a checking and savings account with your bank?


Okay so when you delete the hidden account in ledger live... then readd it whenever you want.  I assume you only do this when checking the balance only right... then just delete it and now you only see the smaller balance one?

[jerry0]

What would be the safest/best option then?  HCP... do you have any input on this?  I assume you don't do this?


Because having a 25th Word seems like a very good idea.  I mean you could write it down somewhere else like in a notebook and it could be a regular word along with mixing other words.  Say your 25th Word was like


frogisgreen

iliketoswim

windowsandapple



Or something even more simple like


moon

smoke

hollywood



I mean... would you say all of these passphrases would be relatively save even if your whole 24 word seed was known by someone?  Because if they enter it without the 25th passphrase, wouldn't they most likely think the seed is incorrect?  But if they could figure out... okay there is a 25th passphrase, would those passphrases I posted above be safe against brute force?  Obviously the last few words aren't that safe... but I certainly don't think adding numbers and capitalizing certain letters is good because you could easily forget that right.



I really want to do the 25th passphrase now because of this.  Now have most of you done this after having your 24 word seed for a while?  If i had an extra nano ledger s... I would test this... I sort of don't want to try it on my nano ledger s now because of messing up.  But its hard to mess this up right?  Because when you enter a passphrase... you need to type it twice... then the screen makes you confirm... that is the word... so its hard to make a mistake here right?  Thats why I wouldn't want to make the passphrase a long word of words because of this.  



Now if you were to immediately use password recovery app on your nano ledger s... you could enter your entire 24 word seed ... then type in the 25th word passphrase just to confirm right?  If so... that would make me feel much more comfortable on adding this 25th word passphrase.

[bob123]

I mean... would you say all of these passphrases would be relatively save even if your whole 24 word seed was known by someone? 

Not exposing your mnemonic code should be your priority.

Because if they enter it without the 25th passphrase, wouldn't they most likely think the seed is incorrect?

No, the mnemonic code without the passphrase is still a "working" mnemonic code and therefore will create a "normal" wallet.
What a specific person you are thinking of will believe when restoring from your seed without a password, ... we don't know.

But if they could figure out... okay there is a 25th passphrase, would those passphrases I posted above be safe against brute force? 

Google "password security" and similar terms. There are even a few threads here.
Check them out.

Basically, it is a password. So everything which applies to a "normal" password, applies to this passphrase.

[Lucius]

Yea when I do things, I am very careful with it.  So with this... im a bit hesistant because say i type in the 25th Word, well i have to make sure its correct and look at it few times.  Also i can't make it way too long otherwise it would be me looking at it over and over again.

No offense, but there is a big difference between being cautious and being paranoid. I quoted a passage from the Ledger site that tells you very clearly what exactly it is about, and for whom this feature is intended. If you think you need that extra protection then just do it, so how complicated is it to add one word or PIN to an existing seed?

But would a passphrase like the ones i mentioned above be decent though?  I obviously need to make sure its easy to remember.  But if you put a very simple passphrase like the word motorola to make it simple, would it be easy for someone to brute force it assuming they have the whole word list but just missing the passphrase?  Or would someone think wait a minute... this might not even be the seed after typing all the words?  I assume most ppl dont know about this 25th Word right?  Thing is had I set this up sooner like originally, I would feel much more safer in a way.

It is never wise to rely only on your memory, what if an accident happens to you and you lose your memory? Passphrase should be such that it cannot be brute force easily, therefore you will write it down on a piece of paper and save a few copies separately from your seed.

I definitely want this passphrase in addition... but concerned i might mess something up in the process...

The thing is pretty simple, you just need to follow the tutorial from the Ledger site - but if you are not sure what you are doing it is quite normal that you can mess something up.

[jerry0]

I mean... would you say all of these passphrases would be relatively save even if your whole 24 word seed was known by someone? 

Not exposing your mnemonic code should be your priority.

Because if they enter it without the 25th passphrase, wouldn't they most likely think the seed is incorrect?

No, the mnemonic code without the passphrase is still a "working" mnemonic code and therefore will create a "normal" wallet.
What a specific person you are thinking of will believe when restoring from your seed without a password, ... we don't know.

But if they could figure out... okay there is a 25th passphrase, would those passphrases I posted above be safe against brute force? 

Google "password security" and similar terms. There are even a few threads here.
Check them out.

Basically, it is a password. So everything which applies to a "normal" password, applies to this passphrase.

Yea i know not exposing the seed is the number one priority.  But if a thief somehow gets it... then you don't have protection against it if you write it down like one of those cards.   


So if they restore the wallet with the passphrase, it will create a normal wallet... but will it show your coins there or not?  I thought if the enter the seed without the passphrase, it won't work like its not a match.


The issue is the passphrase ppl say do not forget it.  So you can't make something ridiculous with lot of numbers/letters and characters.  Sure you can write it down... i mean you should write it down in case your memory forgets, but don't you agree it shouldn't be a ridiculous word though where you sometimes might forget it?


But a passphrase like say frogger or dutch is probably a horrible passphrase... but something like


doglikeshistreats

catplaydog

georgeisfat


I mean.. those are pretty simple to remember... and better than frogger or dutch right?  Yes i know about the stronger the password the better, but this is something in case you forget.


So its like whats the best security for all this?


Have your seed written down and broken in a few pieces.  Then have that 25th Word in your house as well but write it somewhere a lot different.  I mean imagine a notebook that could be a journal but say you know exactly what page that word is on etc.  Wouldn't that be a good idea?



Again yes I know not exposing the seed is the most important thing.  But I feel like unless you live in a very secured place with security... think like a high rise in the trump towers or something like that... then i feel like theres almost always a risk.  I mean... look at those hollywood celebrities that live in their homes in los angeles and hollywood etc and there are burglaries there.  I mean... those places are rich and gated but somehow these things still happen. 

[Rath_]

Oh wait, even if you put a passphrase, when you connect to ledger, it will just ask you for your regular pin right?  Because you only need to enter that passphrase when you enter your entire 24 word seed?

Your Ledger will ask you only for your PIN. You will have to enter your passphrase manually either every time you use your device if you decide not to use the additional PIN or during wallet recovery in some third-party software (e.g. Electrum). You have already asked a similar question. I am not going to answer it next time.

Also when you send btc from one wallet to another, you are paying a fee right like as if you are sending btc to someone else?

Yes, you need to pay for the transaction.

[jerry0]

Yea when I do things, I am very careful with it.  So with this... im a bit hesistant because say i type in the 25th Word, well i have to make sure its correct and look at it few times.  Also i can't make it way too long otherwise it would be me looking at it over and over again.

No offense, but there is a big difference between being cautious and being paranoid. I quoted a passage from the Ledger site that tells you very clearly what exactly it is about, and for whom this feature is intended. If you think you need that extra protection then just do it, so how complicated is it to add one word or PIN to an existing seed?

But would a passphrase like the ones i mentioned above be decent though?  I obviously need to make sure its easy to remember.  But if you put a very simple passphrase like the word motorola to make it simple, would it be easy for someone to brute force it assuming they have the whole word list but just missing the passphrase?  Or would someone think wait a minute... this might not even be the seed after typing all the words?  I assume most ppl dont know about this 25th Word right?  Thing is had I set this up sooner like originally, I would feel much more safer in a way.

It is never wise to rely only on your memory, what if an accident happens to you and you lose your memory? Passphrase should be such that it cannot be brute force easily, therefore you will write it down on a piece of paper and save a few copies separately from your seed.

I definitely want this passphrase in addition... but concerned i might mess something up in the process...

The thing is pretty simple, you just need to follow the tutorial from the Ledger site - but if you are not sure what you are doing it is quite normal that you can mess something up.

I'm concerned when I add that one word, somehow it would mess up and then if i enter my whole seed again.. then the passphrase, it would reject it.  Because I don't have a another nano ledger s to test this on.  Because if I did, I would do that right now.


But if i were to add the pass phrase now... lets just make it simple and say the passphrase is


georgeisfat



I type it twice and confirm it.  



Now i unplug and plug my ledger back in.  I need to first enter the passphrase... then my pin right?


So once it accepts the passphrase, then the pin... well then now there is no concern since you have your seed and that passphrase just written down right?


Because my thinking was this... okay you put a passphrase to it.  Then you log in and it works and then the pin and it works.  Now... my first thing was... I should go to password recovery app on the nano ledger and type in my seed... then type in the passphrase to confirm it works.  This would be absolutely not necessary right?


But if you were to test your recovery seed a bit after this, you would need to put the seed only... or also the seed and passphrase?




My big concern was something like this.... you create a passphrase.  Type it twice to confirm.  Then it shows you the passphrase and either the ledger s malfunctions somewhere during the process... so you don't even have the chance to log into your ledger with your passphrase and pin to test.  Does that make sense?  Yes that sounds like ridiculous paranoia but I had my nano ledger s go dim months ago and then went bad and it didn't turn on anymore.  So imagine it suddenly went bad during this process.  When you get a new nano ledger s, you not sure if it confirmed the passphrase or not etc or it malfunction during the processing/confirmation part.



Most importantly... when i set up the nano ledger s years ago, I did wrote my seed few times and was careful writing it down.  But I never did a test of the seed to confirm it worked.  So you could imagine how it was like when the ledger didn't work anymore.  And I was also in another country at the time... and my seed was another.


So thats why im very paranoid about this especially when my ledger stopped working.  I mean... wouldn't you worry in my situation?  Thats why i do things very carefully as in paranoia because of this.  Like imagine I do this process while my coins are still there and something like this happens.  Yes i know i have my seed with me... but if a malfunction happens... well is my seed enough?  Or will it need the passphrase?  But it has to be either of these two and can't be anything else right?  Because i worry a malfunction could make something happen that has never happened where the seed... or the seed and that passphrase not work.

[HCP]

You are completely misunderstanding how the passphrase system works with the Ledger Nano S...

By default, when you create a seed, it is already using a "default" passphrase of "mnemonic". It is literally using that string as your passphrase if you leave it empty/don't use one. When you add you own custom "passphrase", it simply appends your custom word to the string "mnemonic"... so, if you chose the passphrase "georgeisfat", behind the scenes, the device is actually using the passphrase "mnemonicgeorgeisfat".

Now, the seed stored in your device does not change, regardless of whether you use a passphrase or not... So, when you unlock your device, it is deriving private keys/addresses using seed+"mnemonic".

What happens when you set a "temporary passphrase" (or assign one to a 2nd PIN), is that the device will simply derive a different set of private keys, as the "stored seed+passphrase" combination has changed.

With a temporary passphrase, as soon as you unplug the device, the temporary passphrase is lost and the device will go back to using seed+"mnemonic" to derive your private keys/addresses again.

If you're using a 2nd PIN, when you unlock the device using PIN#2, the device will then start deriving private keys/addresses using seed+"mnemonicPassphraseProtectedBy2ndPIN"... again, when you unplug the device, it will revert back to the default (assuming you unlock with PIN#1 again).

Also, you don't type the passphrase in twice... you type it in ONCE and it asks you to confirm it on the screen. And if your device were to "malfuction" during the process, it wouldn't matter, because:
a. You wouldn't be able to send coins to the "wrong" or unknown addresses, as the device malfunctioned before you could derive any private keys/addresses
and
2. You could just start the process all over again (using same device and/or new device with same seed+passphrase)

You are worrying about nothing!


Instead of asking all these questions, simply experiment with your device. Plug it in, unlock it, go into "Settings -> Security -> Passphrase -> (scroll right 3 times) -> Set up Passphrase -> Set temporary" and try adding a temporary passphrase. After a while of "processing", you'll get a "passphrase set" message.

You can then try adding a new Bitcoin account in Ledger Live (make sure you use a unique name like 'BTC Passphrase Test') and you'll see it has no balance and different receive addresses etc... if you unplug the device and plug it back it, it'll automatically go back to using your original seed+"mnemonic" again like the temporary passphrase never existed.

And Ledger Live will try and stop you from receiving to wrong "account" as well... if you unplug the device, then unlock it and DON'T set the passphrase and then go into 'BTC Passphrase Test' account and try and click "receive", you'll get an error like this:


It has detected that the private keys/addresses that the device is trying to derive, do not match the private keys/addresses for the account you're trying to use!

[jerry0]

You are completely misunderstanding how the passphrase system works with the Ledger Nano S...

By default, when you create a seed, it is already using a "default" passphrase of "mnemonic". It is literally using that string as your passphrase if you leave it empty/don't use one. When you add you own custom "passphrase", it simply appends your custom word to the string "mnemonic"... so, if you chose the passphrase "georgeisfat", behind the scenes, the device is actually using the passphrase "mnemonicgeorgeisfat".

Now, the seed stored in your device does not change, regardless of whether you use a passphrase or not... So, when you unlock your device, it is deriving private keys/addresses using seed+"mnemonic".

What happens when you set a "temporary passphrase" (or assign one to a 2nd PIN), is that the device will simply derive a different set of private keys, as the "stored seed+passphrase" combination has changed.

With a temporary passphrase, as soon as you unplug the device, the temporary passphrase is lost and the device will go back to using seed+"mnemonic" to derive your private keys/addresses again.

If you're using a 2nd PIN, when you unlock the device using PIN#2, the device will then start deriving private keys/addresses using seed+"mnemonicPassphraseProtectedBy2ndPIN"... again, when you unplug the device, it will revert back to the default (assuming you unlock with PIN#1 again).

Also, you don't type the passphrase in twice... you type it in ONCE and it asks you to confirm it on the screen. And if your device were to "malfuction" during the process, it wouldn't matter, because:
a. You wouldn't be able to send coins to the "wrong" or unknown addresses, as the device malfunctioned before you could derive any private keys/addresses
and
2. You could just start the process all over again (using same device and/or new device with same seed+passphrase)

You are worrying about nothing!


Instead of asking all these questions, simply experiment with your device. Plug it in, unlock it, go into "Settings -> Security -> Passphrase -> (scroll right 3 times) -> Set up Passphrase -> Set temporary" and try adding a temporary passphrase. After a while of "processing", you'll get a "passphrase set" message.

You can then try adding a new Bitcoin account in Ledger Live (make sure you use a unique name like 'BTC Passphrase Test') and you'll see it has no balance and different receive addresses etc... if you unplug the device and plug it back it, it'll automatically go back to using your original seed+"mnemonic" again like the temporary passphrase never existed.

And Ledger Live will try and stop you from receiving to wrong "account" as well... if you unplug the device, then unlock it and DON'T set the passphrase and then go into 'BTC Passphrase Test' account and try and click "receive", you'll get an error like this:


It has detected that the private keys/addresses that the device is trying to derive, do not match the private keys/addresses for the account you're trying to use!

HCP, you know how I am before experimenting something... I need to make sure i know what im doing for sure before i attempt it.



So the 25th passphrase.  Say its georgeisfat... after you enter it.  It ask you to enter it again then it show you the passphrase georgeisfat to confirm right?  


In my example, I do not want to have like a hidden wallet or anything like that as it will complicate things.  And also its been said you going to have to send coins from one wallet to another like a regular transaction, so I don't want to do that.  I had thought you could just send coins from one wallet to another like instantly like if you were moving funds from the same checking account to savings account online.


You say

With a temporary passphrase, as soon as you unplug the device, the temporary passphrase is lost and the device will go back to using seed+"mnemonic" to derive your private keys/addresses again.



So everytime you connect the nano ledger to the laptop after that, it will only ask you for your pin like normal and you have the option of typing the original pin or the new pin you created.  And it will do that everytime right?



But say something happens to your nano ledger s and it doesn't work.  You then get a new nano ledger s.  You then type in your old 24 word seed... but you need to also type that passphrase georgeisfat as the 25th word in order to unlock your coins...  is that correct?



Also that would mean the first time you add the passphrase of georgeisfat...... you could then go to password recovery app on your nano ledger s... type in the 24 word seed to confirm it.. but you also need to add in the 25th word in order to verify your seed and passphrase is correct on the specific nano ledger right?



My confusing came when why you mention passphrase and temporary passphrase?  Do you mean the 25th word would be your passphrase but you could also add a 2nd pin which would then serve as your temporary passphrase?  So you would be either using a passphrase which is your 25th word ... or passphrase and temporary passphrase which is your 25th word and the 2nd pin you choose as a 2nd wallet?