Claiming BCH from BTC stored in Electrum and moving everything to Ledger Nano S

[vladman]

Hi,

I'm hoping I'm posting this in the correct section.

As per the title.

I have some BTC stored in an Electrum Wallet. I've read many guides on safe methods for claiming the BCH (equal in amount to BTC owned prior to hard fork). Most guides say to FIRST transfer the BTC from their original wallet in Electrum to a new Electrum wallet, then use the old (now with 0 balance) BTC address to claim BCH from.

I've just bought a Ledger Nano S, and set it up and created brand new BTC and BCH accounts on it. I haven't transferred anything to it yet.

What I'm wondering is can I simply transfer the BTC from my Electrum into my Ledger Nano S (instead of transferring to a new Electrum address) and then install Electron Cash (on a different machine, although, post-successful-transfer, I doubt it matters, but better be safe than sorry) and use the old Electrum BTC address to claim BCH from?

I hope what I'm asking is clear and also that I haven't inadvertently said something stupid.  

Many thanks!

[jackg]

I think you're better off installing electrum cash's client, create a wallet with your hardware device and modify the derivation path to your biitcoin one (whatever that was).

Provided the hw wallet is secure, everything should be safe but if you're in doubt you might want to move the funds off first.

[The Cryptovator]

Good thing that you know the fund should be transferred before you claim your BCH. Here is the guide from Electeum on how should you claim BCH. Also, choosing a hardware wallet like Ledger was the right decision. Just do not use your old seeds or private keys after claiming BCH from Electrum. Because you are going to input your seed/private keys to another wallet which is a fork of Electrum. Just create a new seed if still you want an Electrum wallet. Otherwise, you may use Ledger without hassle. Don't forget to keep safe your seed in multiple places and don't store it on any online/offline machine. Anyway, there is no issue if you move your funds into Ledger or any other wallet that you are holding the private keys.

[Marvelman]

What I'm wondering is can I simply transfer the BTC from my Electrum into my Ledger Nano S (instead of transferring to a new Electrum address) and then install Electron Cash (on a different machine, although, post-successful-transfer, I doubt it matters, but better be safe than sorry) and use the old Electrum BTC address to claim BCH from?

Afaik, yes.  That's mostly the way I did it too.
Sending the BTC to a new address first is a precaution to avoid losing it by any chance. The second step is importing the seed or private key into the BCH-enabled wallet (such as Electron Cash) and transfer the BCH to the newly generated BCH wallet. Just remember not to use old addresses anymore (from which you claimed BCH).

[jackg]

Good thing that you know the fund should be transferred before you claim your BCH. Here is the guide from Electeum on how should you claim BCH. Also, choosing a hardware wallet like Ledger was the right decision. Just do not use your old seeds or private keys after claiming BCH from Electrum. Because you are going to input your seed/private keys to another wallet which is a fork of Electrum. Just create a new seed if still you want an Electrum wallet. Otherwise, you may use Ledger without hassle. Don't forget to keep safe your seed in multiple places and don't store it on any online/offline machine. Anyway, there is no issue if you move your funds into Ledger or any other wallet that you are holding the private keys.

I'd advise against putting the mnemonic words anywhere near an online client since it should be avoidable if electron cash is compatible with hardware.

[LoyceMobile]

Depending on the amount of coins you may want to create offline transactions for the Forkcoins.
Don't forget there are other forks too, and BSV doesn't have replay protection.
Know what you're doing before doing it. LoyceV read this tomorrow.

[vladman]

Hi,

Thank you all very much for replying and all the tips and advice.

There's a reason I posted this in the Beginners section.  Although I think I understand adequately well what's involved and the precautions I have to take, I'm afraid I didn't fully understand everything everyone said, for example this:

I think you're better off installing electrum cash's client, create a wallet with your hardware device and modify the derivation path to your biitcoin one (whatever that was).

or this:

Depending on the amount of coins you may want to create offline transactions for the Forkcoins.

I'm trying to simplify this for myself as much as possible, but still stay safe obviously.

I learned (after posting my initial post) that Ledger officially supports Electrum too, as an alternative to Ledger Live (at least when it comes to BTC). So what I'm wondering is, can I create a new wallet in the same Electrum installation that currently hold my BTC, but set it up to use the Ledger Nano S? And then simply send from original wallet to the newly created Ledger wallet? Or is this unsafe for some reason? Also, if I do decide to set up my Nano S with Electrum, will I then be able to view it (and do everything else) in Ledger Live? In other words, if I make some transactions in the Electrum Nano S wallet, will I see those transactions in Ledger Live (and vice versa)?

Know what you're doing before doing it.

That, exactly, is the purpose of this post. 

Again, thank you everyone.

[bob123]

And then simply send from original wallet to the newly created Ledger wallet? Or is this unsafe for some reason?

No, that's perfectly fine.

Also, if I do decide to set up my Nano S with Electrum, will I then be able to view it (and do everything else) in Ledger Live? In other words, if I make some transactions in the Electrum Nano S wallet, will I see those transactions in Ledger Live (and vice versa)?

Setting up the nano s (i.e. generating a seed, backing up the mnemonic code) does work without any software wallet.
You will set up your nano s without ledger live or electrum.


Then, afterwards, you are free to choose whatever you want.
The software wallet is just an interface to communicate with your hardware wallet. In consequence, the transactions you are doing will appear on both software wallets. They are fetching the information from server which have access to the blockchain.

So, yes. You will see the transactions in ledger live and electrum.

[vladman]

Also, if I do decide to set up my Nano S with Electrum, will I then be able to view it (and do everything else) in Ledger Live? In other words, if I make some transactions in the Electrum Nano S wallet, will I see those transactions in Ledger Live (and vice versa)?

Setting up the nano s (i.e. generating a seed, backing up the mnemonic code) does work without any software wallet.
You will set up your nano s without ledger live or electrum.


Then, afterwards, you are free to choose whatever you want.
The software wallet is just an interface to communicate with your hardware wallet. In consequence, the transactions you are doing will appear on both software wallets. They are fetching the information from server which have access to the blockchain.

So, yes. You will see the transactions in ledger live and electrum.

@bob123

Thank you, that clarifies things really well.

Just to clarify myself, I've already set up the device, and understand that it's even possible to initialize it by having it just plugged into a USB charger (so not connected to any computer of phone).

Now, one more thing, if you all don't mind.

Is there anything I could inadvertently do that would cause me to lose the ability to claim BCH (and maybe other forks)? There's isn't anything like a claiming window or deadline, is there? I'm mainly interested in claiming BCH.

I'm keen to move my BTC to my Nano, and that's my first priority, but I don't want to rush, in case the exact sequence of doing things in order to claim fork coins is important.

And finally, just to make 100% sure.

The steps, in my particular situation, to move my BTC from my current Electrum wallet, to my Ledger Nano S.

• Fire up my existing Electrum installation on my PC.
• Plug in my Ledger Nano S
• Create a new standard wallet and choose Hardware Device (will this automatically create a BTC "account" on my Nano, or do I have to create the account in Ledger Live first? I've already installed the BTC app on the device, but have not yet created an account.)
• Copy the receiving address of the new wallet
• Send BTC from old address to new address (paste)

Is that really all there is to it?

Many thanks!

[Marvelman]

Is there anything I could inadvertently do that would cause me to lose the ability to claim BCH (and maybe other forks)? There's isn't anything like a claiming window or deadline, is there? I'm mainly interested in claiming BCH.

No, you can't lose the ability to claim BCH. After the hard fork, all addresses that contained any amounts of BTC received an identical amount of BCH. That BCH will reside at the address until someone claims them.
Just keep your private keys and seed phrases safe so that no one has access to them.

I'm keen to move my BTC to my Nano, and that's my first priority, but I don't want to rush, in case the exact sequence of doing things in order to claim fork coins is important.

You don't have to rush, there is no time limit.

[vladman]

Thank you Marvelman.

I just found an article online, from 2017, about effectively splitting the BTC account (into BTC and BCH and that way claiming BCH) directly in Ledger, rather than having to use Electron Cash or anything external. However, the article is old, and references a Ledger Manager and BTC Wallet apps, which no longer exist and have been replaced by Ledger Live. Does anyone know if this is still possible? I searched the help articles on Ledger's website, but haven't found anything definitive. If possible, this sounds like the most straightforward way to go about claiming BCH.

And regarding BSV, which I'm just reading about... I understand there was a BCH hard fork about two weeks ago. Can I claim BSV too, or do I have to have claimed BCH FIRST, before 15th November? Or is it enough to have owned BTC prior to 15th November, regardless of whether I claimed BCH or not?

This is all a steep learning curve! 

Sorry for all the questions, and many thanks to everyone who has already contributed!

[Lucius]

vladman, the first and foremost thing is to send your Bitcoin (BTC) in a transaction from Electrum to Ledger Nano S, taking care to check whether the address from Nano S matches the one in Electrum (as protection from clipboard malware) when creating the transaction.

As for the BCH, in the past we mostly used ElectronCash which is legit fork of Electrum for this coin - but since there is also BSV fork, and they do not have replay protection - in case if you did not split them when you send one coin, same amount of other coin is also moved.

I'm not sure if the split method you mention (on Ledger) still works, but I've found a way to do it with Coinomi wallet - it's explained in detail and if you follow the instructions you'll have both coins - BCH(ABC)/BSV Fork - Information/Splitting

[vladman]

@Lucius - thank you

Yes, I'm taking my time, probably being overly cautious/paranoid, before I send my BTC to my Nano. I've scanned my PC with several different anti-virus, anti-malware, anti-keylogger, anti-rootkit applications, and made sure it's as clean as can be. I also use the On-Screen-Keyboard when working in Electrum and Ledger Live, as I've read that keylogger apps can't read this and can only read physical keyboard inputs. But I digress.

Thanks for the link on how to split BSV from BCH. I'm reluctant to introduce yet another wallet into the mix, as I haven't used Coinomi in the past.

I've sent off a support request to Ledger directly, asking for their input on splitting BCH from BTC, and BSV from BCH, and mentioned the article from 2017 which talks about how to do it in Ledger apps, which, btw, is here (but I think it's outdated, as it refers to Ledger applications which no longer exist, and have all been replaced by Ledger Live): https://coinsutra.com/bitcoin-cash-ledger-wallet/

I'll report back once I've made some progress, or when I hear back from Ledger Support.

I guess I'll figure it all out in the end, wish me luck! 

[bob123]

Yes, I'm taking my time, probably being overly cautious/paranoid, before I send my BTC to my Nano. I've scanned my PC with several different anti-virus, anti-malware, anti-keylogger, anti-rootkit applications, and made sure it's as clean as can be. I also use the On-Screen-Keyboard when working in Electrum and Ledger Live, as I've read that keylogger apps can't read this and can only read physical keyboard inputs. But I digress.

Is it you, jerry0 ? 

I've sent off a support request to Ledger directly, asking for their input on splitting BCH from BTC, and BSV from BCH, and mentioned the article from 2017 which talks about how to do it in Ledger apps [...]

As far as i understood you, your BTC are not yet on your ledger.
Therefore you can not split them using any software from ledger.

Just do:

• Fully set up your Nano
• Get a BTC address from your Nano
• Send your BTC from your desktop wallet to your hardware wallet
• Get a BCH address from your Nano
• Install a BCH wallet and import your mnemonic code from your software wallet (not from your nano)
• Send all BCH to your Nano
• Repeat the last 3 steps for any other shitcoin fork

[vladman]

As far as i understood you, your BTC are not yet on your ledger. correct
Therefore you can not split them using any software from ledger.

Just do:

• Fully set up your Nano - done
• Get a BTC address from your Nano - ok, should be easy enough
• Send your BTC from your desktop wallet to your hardware wallet - the most intense step, waiting for the transaction to successfully clear   (not yet done, but will do it imminently)
• Get a BCH address from your Nano - ok (a receiving one, I assume you mean?)
• Install a BCH wallet and import your mnemonic code from your software wallet (not from your nano) - this is where I need the most clarification. First, do you mean install a BCH wallet on my PC? Like Electron Cash? Second, what is mnemonic code? Third, you mean import it from Electrum (which should now have a balance of zero, having previously sent my BTC to my Nano)?
• Send all BCH to your Nano - ok, should be easy enough
• Repeat the last 3 steps for any other shitcoin fork - ok  

Hey bob123, thanks again for taking the time to respond. Please see above in bold.

Thank you SO much for your help!

[TryNinja]

ok (a receiving one, I assume you mean?)

Yes, so you can send the coins to your Nano.

First, do you mean install a BCH wallet on my PC? Like Electron Cash?

Yes, install Electron Cash or any other trusted BCH wallet on your PC so you can spend the BCH coins.

Second, what is mnemonic code?

Mnemonic code = backup seed. That list of words you get when you are creating your wallet. If you don't have it, just open your Electrum wallet, go to Wallet -> Seed, copy it and restore it on the Electron Cash wallet. Remember, that's the one from your old Electrum wallet, NOT from your Nano (which should be kept offline in a piece of paper or similar).

Third, you mean import it from Electrum (which should now have a balance of zero, having previously sent my BTC to my Nano)?

Yes. It has a balance of 0 BTC, since you took it out of there, but it still has the BCH. When you restore it on the Electron Cash wallet, you will be able to see the BCH balance and spend them to your Nano BCH receiving address. Send them there like you did with your BTC and you are good.

[vladman]

@TryNinja - thanks!

You guys rock! Thank you so much, all who have responded here, I think I've exhausted all my questions (for now)! 

I'll let you know how it goes.

[vladman]

Well, I won't be doing anything tonight definitely!

I just went to try and transfer a very small amount (BTC from Electrum to Nano) as a test. I tried to transfer 0.0001 BTC. However, I noticed the fee was larger than this amount! It was about 0.0004.   Ok, so I incrementally increased the hypothetical amount I want to transfer (never actually completing the transfer) until I actually pressed the MAX button, to transfer everything. The fee is exorbitant (EDIT: this is even when sliding the slider all the way to the left)!   Obviously, I won't share my exact figures here, but I seem to remember reading not that long ago (in the last few months or so) about some or other whale moving some astronomical amounts of bitcoin and paying a tiny fee, I mean a fee that was magnitudes lower than the fee I'd be paying if I initiated the transfer now, on my nowhere-near-whale-status-qualifying amount.

So I'm confused... I'm just trying to read up on fees now...  

[bob123]

this is where I need the most clarification. First, do you mean install a BCH wallet on my PC? Like Electron Cash? Second, what is mnemonic code? Third, you mean import it from Electrum (which should now have a balance of zero, having previously sent my BTC to my Nano)?

Correct.
After emptying your BTC wallet, use this wallet to send your BCH (by using your mnemonic code: the 12 or 24 words). Electron cash should be fine for that task.


Regarding the fees: They are relatively high currently if you want the transaction to confirm within a few blocks.
If you can wait however, you are free to create a transaction with a custom fee, to pay less overall.

[Lucius]

Thanks for the link on how to split BSV from BCH. I'm reluctant to introduce yet another wallet into the mix, as I haven't used Coinomi in the past.

I can't say anything bad about Coinomi, I used that wallet for a short time to receive some altcoins that were not supported by Nano S - but since you only need that wallet temporarily and it has a detailed explanation of how to safely claim and split coins that you interested, you have one extra choice in case you need it.

I just went to try and transfer a very small amount (BTC from Electrum to Nano) as a test. I tried to transfer 0.0001 BTC. However, I noticed the fee was larger than this amount!
So I'm confused... I'm just trying to read up on fees now... 

It’s definitely something you need to learn to avoid paying a lot more than you need at a given time. The fee depends on a lot of factors and always increases when we have a large number of transactions on the blockchain. Furthermore, the fee depends on how many inputs you have (total number of addresses from which you send the transaction), and the number of outputs (number of addresses to which you send BTC) - which ultimately creates the size of the transaction. So if you have transactions in size of 226 bytes (1 input+2 outputs) and you pay minimum fee (1 satoshi byte) it will cost you only 226 satoshi ($0.04) currently, but it will take a very long time for the transaction to receive the first confirmation.

See the following link -> https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#0,24h and the third chart (mempool size in MB) and there you can see by point to current time how much you need to pay to get in the next block (so all that is 0.xx MB).