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Author Topic: How degenerate is it buying and sitting on PayPal Bitcoin ?  (Read 1116 times)
BobLawblaw
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December 21, 2020, 06:24:48 PM
Last edit: December 21, 2020, 09:43:23 PM by BobLawblaw
 #1

So, in the course of doing everyday stuff, I use Paypal occasionally, which means I hold a cash balance with them.

I have started buying small chunks of PPBTC, and having them holding it in custody.

So far, it's been way profitable for me (unrealized), but I'm fully aware of the tax implications involved with selling PPBTC (Already had to sell off a sliver of PPBTC, and was forced to enter my SSN to continue. I see what you did there PayPal. Har har IRS. That $25 was sold at a loss !!)

Anyway, what are your thoughts on buying PPBTC ? I believe it's fully degenerate, mostly due to the fact you cannot transfer PPBTC out to your own custody.

The only way I'm rationalizing it right now, is whatever PPBTC I'm scooping, aren't going to be sold for at least 365 days after they are purchased, so I'm at least being taxed at long-term capital gains.

Thoughts ? Let's have a PPBTC catharsis thread.
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December 21, 2020, 06:49:59 PM
 #2

From what I remember funds stored in paypal aren't insured like they are in a bank account. It shouldn't be used to store anything that you aren't happy losing.

Also if you can't transfer it out then that looks very shady, even if it is now physically backed. And everything you buy from them is giving them a profit if they already had reserves you're buying. There must be a reason they're doing it now 🤔.

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December 21, 2020, 07:15:19 PM
Merited by BobLawblaw (1)
 #3

bob you a man after my own heart and soul.

I have two paypal accounts with about

250 in btc
175 in btc.

my feeling are this all members of bitcointalk.org that are legally allowed to buy btc on paypal

should.

obviously it does not need to be 1% of your btc it can be lower.

to not buy it when you legally can simply means you do not want btc to be mainstream.

jackg is correct in that it is not the same as having coin stored  in a bitcore wallet.

but i have been at this for 8 years. i have read  adoption adoption adoption.

and now i read dozens of bitcointalk  members speak against owning paypal btc.

i would give them twenty lashes with a flaccid green dildo for each and every time they say they wont buy it.

😯

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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December 21, 2020, 09:08:58 PM
 #4

I don't really use PayPal that much, but if you have some bucks sitting in the account I don't see why you shouldn't buy PPBTC instead of losing the purchase power of your money. This is for the situation you are too lazy to transfer the money out of your account and buy tangible BTC from a regular exchange and transfer them to your personal custody.

I am not aware of the tax rate on short-term capital gains in the United States. Is it 30-40%?
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December 21, 2020, 09:39:58 PM
 #5

I am not aware of the tax rate on short-term capital gains in the United States. Is it 30-40%?

Short term capital gains can get up to 37% PA, if you max the tax bracket.
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December 21, 2020, 09:54:14 PM
Last edit: December 21, 2020, 10:04:34 PM by Qoheleth
 #6

I am not aware of the tax rate on short-term capital gains in the United States. Is it 30-40%?
It's considered normal income & uses the normal income tax rate. Federally it's anywhere from 10% to 37% marginal depending on your income. Then there's state income taxes added on, which can be anything from 0% (Washington) to 13.3% (California).

(I am not a CPA, etc)

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December 21, 2020, 10:50:03 PM
 #7


i would give them twenty lashes with a flaccid green dildo for each and every time they say they wont buy it.

😯

I will not buy through Paypal. I do not need custodial services, and certainly not with an irrational behemoth

And no to the dildo too Wink
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December 21, 2020, 11:24:23 PM
 #8


i would give them twenty lashes with a flaccid green dildo for each and every time they say they wont buy it.

😯

I will not buy through Paypal. I do not need custodial services, and certainly not with an irrational behemoth

And no to the dildo too Wink

and your are exactly the flaw in adoption that many many many many many old school people have.

As the Donald would say sad so very sad.

Just toss some more sand in the wheels of adoption.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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December 22, 2020, 12:07:44 AM
 #9


i would give them twenty lashes with a flaccid green dildo for each and every time they say they wont buy it.

😯

I will not buy through Paypal. I do not need custodial services, and certainly not with an irrational behemoth

And no to the dildo too Wink

and your are exactly the flaw in adoption that many many many many many old school people have.

As the Donald would say sad so very sad.

Just toss some more sand in the wheels of adoption.

I mean considering that specific company were going on about how they'd block accounts involved in it then I think it's pretty reasonable not to consider them trustworthy. Unless you've read, saved and printed your copy of the terms and service and read it all the way through to see what you're entitled to if they have another mood swing I'd do nothing with the.

I don't want mainstream adoption, I want INNOVATION. I don't want to experience a chapter in the middle of a long book I want its sequel.

I am not aware of the tax rate on short-term capital gains in the United States. Is it 30-40%?

Short term capital gains can get up to 37% PA, if you max the tax bracket.

"land of the free" more like land of the fee (pun creds to my autocorrect there).

Yeah im no longer annoyed at my 10% tax bill anymore...

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December 22, 2020, 12:49:27 AM
Merited by vapourminer (2), BobLawblaw (1)
 #10

I don't ever use Paypal, but the fact is that for mass adoption most people are just going to end up letting a third party, like paypal or their bank or their investment firm, custody their bitcoin, no different than how most casual bitcoin owners (in the US) just bought and keep theirs on Coinbase or perhaps some other exchange. Paypal or in a bank makes it easy and convenient for them to spend, and investment firm that they trust makes it easy for them to invest and not worry about it (though I would assume these sorts of companies will get insurance for the bitcoin they hold, otherwise its gonna be hard to build trust).

Though the tax rules on Bitcoin make actually spending it a huge headache so until that happens there is not reason to keep it in an account that allows you to spend it easily.

I'll stick to holding my own bitcoin, but for the majority of consumers out there custody from paypal and other institutions will just make more sense for them. I would even argue that having these third party custodians is GOOD. That's right, good. Because it increases adoption, and likely a small percentage of those people will then be interested enough in actually learning about Bitcoin and taking advantage of its features beyond price appreciation. Also for using it as a currency, well, Bitcoin is simply unusable on a mass scale cuz of its block size bottleneck, so unless Lightning Network takes off and is easy to use and its tradeoffs are worth it, 3rd parties will allow vastly more usage (and therefore ownership) of Bitcoin to take place because they can just batch tons of transactions together and decrease the data going into the blockchain. The hardcore crypto enthusiasts will hate this idea, but it will in fact improve usability and adoption of Bitcoin by a huge amount.

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December 22, 2020, 01:17:58 AM
Last edit: December 22, 2020, 06:05:46 AM by stompix
 #11

So far, it's been way profitable for me (unrealized), but I'm fully aware of the tax implications involved with selling PPBTC (Already had to sell off a sliver of PPBTC, and was forced to enter my SSN to continue. I see what you did there PayPal. Har har IRS. That $25 was sold at a loss !!)

Playing the devil advocate right now, but legally speaking, if you would have done this on Coinbase for example, wound't you still be liable for the same taxes? Or on any exchange? Of course, buying and selling at an ATM or P2P would have given you some privacy but still from a legal point of view that would be tax evasion, right? I'm not talking about what's moral or views on it but strictly legally! So, you do it with PPBTC or withBTC  at Kraken it's the same in the end, right?

I believe it's fully degenerate, mostly due to the fact you cannot transfer PPBTC out to your own custody.

Or, a solution to the above conundrum, hold till they will eventually let you withdraw real coins to your wallet, even if for some the average life expectancy often loses when it comes to good things getting implemented. If it took Coinbse 3 years to batch transactions we could assume 30 for Paypal real crypto withdrawals.

I'll stick to holding my own bitcoin, but for the majority of consumers out there custody from paypal and other institutions will just make more sense for them. I would even argue that having these third party custodians is GOOD. That's right, good.

There is no need to argue, for a lot of people somebody else storing their coins is a better solution, guys like:
Twitter hack: Exchange 'blocked 1,000 Bitcoin transactions'

And at this point, I can say for sure that these services have just one way to go in terms of coins held, up!!! Of course, there will be thousands like us storing our coins in our own wallets but millions won't.

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December 22, 2020, 02:46:43 AM
 #12

Playing the devil advocate right now, but legally speaking, if you would have done this on Coinbase for example, wound't you still be liable for the same taxes?

Buying Bitcoin is not a taxable event. Selling it and converting to fiat is. That's why I make sure to always sell my coins FIFO, so I'm only owing long term capital gains.
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December 22, 2020, 02:50:50 AM
 #13

... for the majority of consumers out there custody from paypal and other institutions will just make more sense for them. I would even argue that having these third party custodians is GOOD ...

I agree 100% on the need for safe and secure mainstream, branded custodial services to facilitate consumer adoption. For most, the soft wallet user experience has been lacking for over a decade and has no doubt been responsible for countless coins being lost or burned, and certainly dissuaded many from engaging with crypto further.

But I do not believe that I need to promote adoption by supporting the likes of Paypal, who change their terms on a whim akin to Google or FB. Imagine the poor folks who will have their "crypto" frozen in the future due to some nonsensical policy. Sure, they'll get access to it eventually but will suffer undue stress in the interim. I have more faith in Gemini or Fidelity to get this right.

As for myself, having lived through enough hardware and exchange scams over the years, there's just no way I would consider leaving substantial coin with anybody but myself.

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December 22, 2020, 04:39:22 AM
 #14


i would give them twenty lashes with a flaccid green dildo for each and every time they say they wont buy it.

😯

I will not buy through Paypal. I do not need custodial services, and certainly not with an irrational behemoth

And no to the dildo too Wink

and your are exactly the flaw in adoption that many many many many many old school people have.

As the Donald would say sad so very sad.

Just toss some more sand in the wheels of adoption.

I mean considering that specific company were going on about how they'd block accounts involved in it then I think it's pretty reasonable not to consider them trustworthy. Unless you've read, saved and printed your copy of the terms and service and read it all the way through to see what you're entitled to if they have another mood swing I'd do nothing with the.

I don't want mainstream adoption, I want INNOVATION. I don't want to experience a chapter in the middle of a long book I want its sequel.

I am not aware of the tax rate on short-term capital gains in the United States. Is it 30-40%?

Short term capital gains can get up to 37% PA, if you max the tax bracket.

"land of the free" more like land of the fee (pun creds to my autocorrect there).

Yeah im no longer annoyed at my 10% tax bill anymore...

My point exactly you don't want BTC to go mainstream.






I supposed you are pissed off every Norway Citizen now has some BTC in their retirement account.

https://news.coingenius.ai/norway-grants-its-citizens-2-worth-of-bitcoins-through-the-countrys-oldest-pension-fund/

or will that be okay for you.

Is it too common or is it innovative?

You tell me.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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December 22, 2020, 09:32:35 AM
Merited by philipma1957 (1)
 #15

My point exactly you don't want BTC to go mainstream.






I supposed you are pissed off every Norway Citizen now has some BTC in their retirement account.

https://news.coingenius.ai/norway-grants-its-citizens-2-worth-of-bitcoins-through-the-countrys-oldest-pension-fund/

or will that be okay for you.

Is it too common or is it innovative?

You tell me.


We didn't get 4mb blocks because the idea of going back to Satoshi original size annoyed people, this on an international scale would be weird.

And $2 for every citizen who have an average gdp per capita of at least $40000, I'd call it innovation. What do they care if their $2 sinks or if it doesn't. Although pension schemes look like a way to trap peoples money for investment for 35 years so...

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December 22, 2020, 10:02:46 AM
 #16

I have started buying small chunks of PPBTC, and having them holding it in custody.

So far, it's been way profitable for me (unrealized), but I'm fully aware of the tax implications involved with selling PPBTC (Already had to sell off a sliver of PPBTC, and was forced to enter my SSN to continue. I see what you did there PayPal. Har har IRS. That $25 was sold at a loss !!)

Anyway, what are your thoughts on buying PPBTC ? I believe it's fully degenerate, mostly due to the fact you cannot transfer PPBTC out to your own custody.

The only way I'm rationalizing it right now, is whatever PPBTC I'm scooping, aren't going to be sold for at least 365 days after they are purchased, so I'm at least being taxed at long-term capital gains.

Thoughts ? Let's have a PPBTC catharsis thread.

It's fine in moderation. I just wouldn't let it comprise more than a couple % of my total stash. As long as we all know it's just a shitty bank account, with all that entails, it's fine. I would definitely report your taxes to the penny. I'm more paranoid about the CRA and IRS raiding Paypal's records than I am about Paxos getting hacked or something.

my feeling are this all members of bitcointalk.org that are legally allowed to buy btc on paypal

should.

obviously it does not need to be 1% of your btc it can be lower.

to not buy it when you legally can simply means you do not want btc to be mainstream.

Those fees though. I know it's zero fees for a couple more weeks but, just saying.

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December 22, 2020, 03:02:14 PM
Merited by BobLawblaw (1)
 #17

it only makes sense for those who have funds on paypal and have no plans on using those funds, so keeping it in form of "bitocoin IOU" is better than keeping it in form of "USD IOU" on paypal. because at the very least you can gain some profit on your USD IOUs.

as for taxation, it is on the profit you make and all the IRS stuff is inevitable when it comes to any US based centralized company that handles this kind of stuff so you should have already made peace with that kind of invasion. Cheesy

There is a FOMO brewing...
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December 22, 2020, 03:17:16 PM
 #18

My point exactly you don't want BTC to go mainstream.






I supposed you are pissed off every Norway Citizen now has some BTC in their retirement account.

https://news.coingenius.ai/norway-grants-its-citizens-2-worth-of-bitcoins-through-the-countrys-oldest-pension-fund/

or will that be okay for you.

Is it too common or is it innovative?

You tell me.


We didn't get 4mb blocks because the idea of going back to Satoshi original size annoyed people, this on an international scale would be weird.

And $2 for every citizen who have an average gdp per capita of at least $40000, I'd call it innovation. What do they care if their $2 sinks or if it doesn't. Although pension schemes look like a way to trap peoples money for investment for 35 years so...

Would be nice to see more countries do this move.  Very likely better than PayPal, but I live in the USA so I put around 250 and 170 into PayPal accounts. As it is a mainstream move.

Would I ever consider putting in 1 btc to each account no. Even if I got lucky and solo mined 2 blocks or so. Paypal won't see much of my money/coin.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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December 22, 2020, 11:43:34 PM
 #19

I think its ok on the side for a fun hold of small amount of funds.   Say put it this way, you have a wallet existing with BTC in there, you can sell from there any time as usual.   What you could do is transfer spare change from paypal type sales into BTC and then sell the larger amount from your wallet if you wanted to and in this way you are neutral overall.
   I believe I read Paypal will eventually allow sales to be settled in BTC, otherwise yea its a funny thing.   If crypto ends up purely speculative then we can be sure it wont survive, the real hard line price is matched to actual trades occurring and settled by Bitcoin.    Always we are going to see a froth BTC price settled on top of the hard line Bitcoin, both can be rising but imo we'll always fall back to the less speculative pricing.

You are no worse then all the gold coin collectors.   I got some gold coin just for fun over a decade ago, it doesn't do anything.   I've gained tons of money on it, its doubled in price for me but its kinda silly because the utility of a lump of metal doing nothing is limited and I dont want BTC to be a do nothing theoretical idea.   Im not negative on gold, it has an ironic position in an economy but I think BTC will lose to gold for this placing (or any other solid element) because its virtual, BTC has to be used, efficient and enabling business to occur or I stop being bullish tbh.

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December 22, 2020, 11:49:55 PM
Last edit: December 23, 2020, 12:03:34 AM by cAPSLOCK
Merited by vapourminer (1), philipma1957 (1), BobLawblaw (1)
 #20

I like it.  Not for serious holdings, but for what you seem to be doing.  I did this in Robinhood back in the day...

If it turns out they are fractional?  Then I would frown on it.  But if they are actually custodying BTC then yeah... doing something small to help make them successful is not a bad idea.

And if they chose to have a fractional BTC reserve?  It would very possibly be their undoing.

_edit_ LOL.  I just looked at my Robinhood monies.  I bought it back when they first went live with synthetic BTC.  It's up like 400% heh.  Hopefully you see the same thing in Paypal.
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