Why exactly is Bitcoin clinging to PoW?

[TangentC]

Genuine question, wouldn’t large mining farms avoid regions where electricity is in high demand, and therefore have higher electricity rates, making it unprofitable for mining? Plus electricity generated is only “wasted” if there’s a surplus and the surplus isn’t used.

Excess Energy is never wasted, that is a myth.
Texas energy rate prices are lower than average, which is why miners are flocking there.

Most Power Grids are interconnected, they have to maintain a % of power to keep their grid stable,
when their usage is lower, they sell the so called excess energy to the other grids. (Their is No wasted energy.)
So their is no massive amount of excess energy in the grid system.

But in regions with low demand for electricity, don’t the power stations regulate the output themselves, which could lower profit? Wouldn’t industrial POW miners be welcome consumers for those power stations because it makes them generate the output to their capacity? I don’t know why some people believe this is bad. It’s simply commerce.

Actually in the US,  power plants and power generators hand over control of their output to Power Grid Operators.
They do this to avoid a monopoly.
https://peguru.com/2018/09/who-controls-the-power-grid-in-usa/

https://www.anthropoceneinstitute.com/science/grid/

Grid operators constantly monitor and manage the demand, supply, reserve margins, and power mix to ensure that you have immediate access to power in your home or business. What is the reserve margin? It is a specified backup generation capacity that can compensate for potential forecasting errors, unexpected power plant shutdowns or weather events

The grid operator uses a three-phase planning process to ensure that power plants produce the right amount of electricity to meet electric demand at any given time. Electricity supply must balance demand at all times in order to avoid a blackout or other cascading problem. The production of electricity is adjusted in 15 minute intervals to account for demand changes throughout the day. For this reason, there are three main types of power plants: baseload, load-following, and peakers.

Baseload power plants meet the minimal power needed by the grid and are designed to be on most of the time. Their capacity factor, or percent of time operational, is above 80%. They are only shut down or curtailed when performing maintenance or repair. Baseload power is the cheapest type of generation and usually supplied by coal fired and nuclear power plants because they can provide large amounts of power (up to 1.6 GW).

Load-following plants, also known as intermediate load plants, are typically combined-cycled gas fired power plants, which have a high thermal efficiency of up to 58%.  They have a gas turbine and a waste heat recovery system to capture the gas turbine’s exhaust to drive a steam turbine that produces additional electricity. Generation from load-following plants can be ramped up and down as needed. Their capacity factor is usually less than 30% of the time. But they are more complex to maintain and more expensive to operate/

The power plant of “last resort” are peaker plants. They are turned on for even shorter periods of time to meet extremely high high demands, for example, when air conditioning is used during hot days. Due to their low capacity factor, which could be as low as a few hours for the entire year, they the most expensive type of generation.

How is power bought and sold in the US?

Electricity is bought and re-sold on the wholesale power market before finally reaching the final consumer.  With the exception of Texas, this market is regulated by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) due to the interstate nature of the grid.

The wholesale market is open to utility owned suppliers and marketers, non-utility independent power producers (IPPs), and excess generation from traditional vertically-operated utilities. Furthermore, participants in the wholesale market do not necessary have own generation capacity or serve the end-user. Much like other commodity markets, individual traders (power marketers) buy electricity on the market to re-sell it.

Once the electricity is procured from the wholesale market, it is sold to the final consumer through the retail market. In states where full retail competition exists, customers may choose from either their incumbent utility supplier or from an array of new competitive suppliers

How do grid operators work together?
Within the regional wholesale markets, grid operators organize under a regional transmission organization (RTO) or independent system operator (ISO). These entities serve as a third-party independent operator of the transmission system to control, monitor, and coordinate the operations of a grid.

About 60% of the U.S. electric power supply is managed by RTOs. Ten Regional Transmission Organizations (RTOs) operate bulk electric power systems across much of North America.

These operators ensure that no preference is given in the dispatch of a utility-owned generator over a competitive generator. Grid operators must be certified under the North American Electric Reliability Corporation (NERC).

Since PoW miners require 24x7 power, they draw down a large % of the Baseload power plants ,
which in turn means more Intermediate Load plants, are running longer,
and that when weather extremes happen, the “last resort” are peaker plants which if unable to meet the increased demand,
that is when the power grid operators start rolling blackouts to avoid the whole grid collapsing and transformers burning out.

Bitcoin Miners draw such large amounts of power in small regions , they totally remove a large % of the energy generated by the Baseload power plants.

If the Number of Bitcoin Mining devices were regulated to limit their number per power grid, then their power drain could be managed better by the power grid operators thus avoiding the rolling blackouts that have to happen to protect the grid.
* Regulating the number of ASICS per grid would have huge impact on Miners Profits as further separates locations increases their costs. Which is one reason Ethereum dev decided to avoid the potential coming government regulations by switching to PoS.*

A lot of people in the bitcoin community want to cry fud and ignore the power drain of PoW,
It is not fud, when the Power Grid operators start rolling blackouts, which has already happen in China and Iran,
which is why they started banning mining.
Power Grid operators only concern is protecting the Power grids, they don't care about bitcoins , altcoins or any of our opinions on algorithms, so the pretense that they are involved in fud is totally baseless, all they care about is a functioning power grid.

It is like this, Bitcoiners don't have to switch to PoS,
but they will have to do something to combat the energy drain they are placing on the power grids,
before the Governments step in and make the decision for them.
Which in China , they decided it was easier to ban bitcoin PoW mining than regulate it.

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[Dabs]

Which in China , they decided it was easier to ban bitcoin PoW mining than regulate it.

That's their loss. I mean, China. The miners will simply move somewhere else and we are seeing it happening now.

The power grid operators don't care if you are looking for aliens, solving optical goloumb rulers, finding a cure for cancer, calculating large prime numbers, growing plants indoors or mining for any coins. If you use power and pay for it, then you should be okay, doesn't matter what you do.

Miners will simply migrate (or at least the equipment does) to wherever it makes sense for them, usually that means where it's cheaper.

[TangentC]

Which in China , they decided it was easier to ban bitcoin PoW mining than regulate it.

That's their loss. I mean, China. The miners will simply move somewhere else and we are seeing it happening now.

The power grid operators don't care if you are looking for aliens, solving optical goloumb rulers, finding a cure for cancer, calculating large prime numbers, growing plants indoors or mining for any coins. If you use power and pay for it, then you should be okay, doesn't matter what you do.

Miners will simply migrate (or at least the equipment does) to wherever it makes sense for them, usually that means where it's cheaper.

And the earlier point , was the miners have been moving to Texas,  
https://news.yahoo.com/displaced-chinese-bitcoin-miners-flocking-060215932.html
and Texas Power Grid operators are now warning of rolling blackouts.

Their is your clue.  


FYI:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/18/texas-promotes-master-plan-lure-worlds-crypto-billionaires-forced/amp/

“We have governors like Greg Abbott in Texas who are promoting mining,” he told CNBC.

“It is going to become a real industry in the United States, which is going to be incredible.

“Texas not only has the cheapest electricity in the US but some of the cheapest in the globe,” he said.

“It’s also very easy to start up a mining company.”

Argo Blockchain CEO Peter Wall recently told Bitcoin Magazine: "We chose West Texas because it offers us some of the lowest electricity rates in the world and the majority is from renewable sources, namely wind and solar.”

But there has been a backlash.

Critics have pointed out that Texas’s power grid failed during a winter storm earlier this year and that the significant drain on resources could lead to future blackouts.

More than four million people were left without power, some for days, and 111 people died.

[buwaytress]

^ Can't say I know enough about what's going on in Texas, I think it's a tragedy but I also think it's a case of mismanagement and poor governance, and a direct result of storm damage (or failure of storm resistance, which it knowingly did not fix for a decade at least apparently).

So them Texans had better start electing better leaders or pushing for better means to distribute energy or fix the storm damage. Blaming it on miners is at best going to remove them from the equation, but that doesn't mean they won't simply be replaced by other commercial consumers, nor will it mean redistributing power to where it's needed.

The problem is a loss of power generation capacity. The miners won't have been invited over if there wasn't enough capacity in the first place.

[thecodebear]

PoW also makes Bitcoin a literal energy-to-money conversion machine, and having a system that can directly convert energy into money is a very powerful economic tool, especially over the coming decades as the world works on moving to renewables. You don't enforce renewable usage, Bitcoin naturally encourages renewable energy production because it makes the spread of renewable energy more economically viable - I should say it makes energy production in general more viable, but as the world is trying to switch to renewables this naturally favors the spread of renewables.

I am not in favor of moving away from PoW, but this argument is nonsense.

PoW miners need more than electricity, they also need ASIC machines that require technical expertise to design and build. ASIC machines require specialized chips that are in scarce supply.

Even "renewable" energy costs money to generate via building the medium of "capturing" the energy, such as solar panels, or windmills.

Probably most importantly, someone who has a large excess of energy, "renewable" or otherwise, can sell said energy to consumers of energy, as electric utilities do today. People are willing to pay for electricity because they need it to power things such as their stove, oven, lights, air conditioning, computers, and other devices that require electricity to work.

You didn't in any way invalidate my statement that you bolded. As I said, Bitcoin is an energy-to-money conversion machine. This feature makes Bitcoin profoundly important for spreading renewable energy production around the world. Not sure what you were trying to argue in your comment, but you weren't arguing against this fact of Bitcoin. Also I don't think you realize what "excess of energy" means - it specifically means there is no one to sell the energy to, which makes that statement by you, in fact, nonsense.

Bitcoin is about as much an "energy-to-money" machine as a toaster is a "energy-to-toast" machine.

Someone who is mining bitcoin is not going to wait and only use "excess" electricity, they are going to do their best to get "priority" access to electricity. As bitcoin miners become more efficient, current ASICs will generate less revenue, so it is important for miners to have as close to 100% uptime as they can.

Bitcoin provides an economy for that excess of energy, it also allows energy to be produced in places where there is no energy demand at all, but perhaps there will be in the future. It also allows new ways to produce energy to become economically viable when they normally wouldn't be. It not only fixes the excess energy problem, but it allows for the growth of new energy all over, and the development of new energy producing technologies. PoW is a truly powerful feature of Bitcoin.

There is already a source of near-unlimited, cheap electricity available. It is called nuclear power.

PoW is going to consume cheap electricity today. If there is a means to produce electricity that is expensive today, but might be cheap tomorrow, PoW is not going to consume that electricity until it is cheap.

I'm not sure why you think you're disproving the fact that Bitcoin is an energy to money conversion machine. But you're not. It's a simple fact. Nothing you said is even an argument against that fact. I'm not even sure what you're arguing about, or what you randomly brought up nuclear power. Seems like you're just having a conversation with yourself but for some reason quoting me.

[thecodebear]

Which in China , they decided it was easier to ban bitcoin PoW mining than regulate it.

That's their loss. I mean, China. The miners will simply move somewhere else and we are seeing it happening now.

The power grid operators don't care if you are looking for aliens, solving optical goloumb rulers, finding a cure for cancer, calculating large prime numbers, growing plants indoors or mining for any coins. If you use power and pay for it, then you should be okay, doesn't matter what you do.

Miners will simply migrate (or at least the equipment does) to wherever it makes sense for them, usually that means where it's cheaper.

And the earlier point , was the miners have been moving to Texas,  
https://news.yahoo.com/displaced-chinese-bitcoin-miners-flocking-060215932.html
and Texas Power Grid operators are now warning of rolling blackouts.

Their is your clue.  


FYI:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/18/texas-promotes-master-plan-lure-worlds-crypto-billionaires-forced/amp/

“We have governors like Greg Abbott in Texas who are promoting mining,” he told CNBC.

“It is going to become a real industry in the United States, which is going to be incredible.

“Texas not only has the cheapest electricity in the US but some of the cheapest in the globe,” he said.

“It’s also very easy to start up a mining company.”

Argo Blockchain CEO Peter Wall recently told Bitcoin Magazine: "We chose West Texas because it offers us some of the lowest electricity rates in the world and the majority is from renewable sources, namely wind and solar.”

But there has been a backlash.

Critics have pointed out that Texas’s power grid failed during a winter storm earlier this year and that the significant drain on resources could lead to future blackouts.

More than four million people were left without power, some for days, and 111 people died.

Texas had blackouts after a severe winter storm because their energy infrastructure wasn't designed to handle extreme cold, cuz they're in Texas. It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Bitcoin mining.

[zbig001]

Since PoW miners require 24x7 power, they draw down a large % of the Baseload power plants

It is not necessarily that simple.
If your miners are already paid off, the higher their uptime, the more you will earn if the price of electricity in a given period allows you to make profit.
But it won't always be profitable for you to turn on the oldest, least effective miners.

It is different if you have just invested in a given part of your mine's equipment and you have to pay it back.
Then obviously the uptime should be as close to 100% as possible.
But even 85% would let you pay off the equipment if you had access to electricity at a very favorable price.

[Wind_FURY]

Genuine question, wouldn’t large mining farms avoid regions where electricity is in high demand, and therefore have higher electricity rates, making it unprofitable for mining? Plus electricity generated is only “wasted” if there’s a surplus and the surplus isn’t used.

Excess Energy is never wasted, that is a myth.
Texas energy rate prices are lower than average, which is why miners are flocking there.

Most Power Grids are interconnected, they have to maintain a % of power to keep their grid stable,
when their usage is lower, they sell the so called excess energy to the other grids. (Their is No wasted energy.)
So their is no massive amount of excess energy in the grid system.

But in regions with low demand for electricity, don’t the power stations regulate the output themselves, which could lower profit? Wouldn’t industrial POW miners be welcome consumers for those power stations because it makes them generate the output to their capacity? I don’t know why some people believe this is bad. It’s simply commerce.

Actually in the US,  power plants and power generators hand over control of their output to Power Grid Operators.
They do this to avoid a monopoly.
https://peguru.com/2018/09/who-controls-the-power-grid-in-usa/

https://www.anthropoceneinstitute.com/science/grid/

Grid operators constantly monitor and manage the demand, supply, reserve margins, and power mix to ensure that you have immediate access to power in your home or business. What is the reserve margin? It is a specified backup generation capacity that can compensate for potential forecasting errors, unexpected power plant shutdowns or weather events

The grid operator uses a three-phase planning process to ensure that power plants produce the right amount of electricity to meet electric demand at any given time. Electricity supply must balance demand at all times in order to avoid a blackout or other cascading problem. The production of electricity is adjusted in 15 minute intervals to account for demand changes throughout the day. For this reason, there are three main types of power plants: baseload, load-following, and peakers.

Baseload power plants meet the minimal power needed by the grid and are designed to be on most of the time. Their capacity factor, or percent of time operational, is above 80%. They are only shut down or curtailed when performing maintenance or repair. Baseload power is the cheapest type of generation and usually supplied by coal fired and nuclear power plants because they can provide large amounts of power (up to 1.6 GW).

Load-following plants, also known as intermediate load plants, are typically combined-cycled gas fired power plants, which have a high thermal efficiency of up to 58%.  They have a gas turbine and a waste heat recovery system to capture the gas turbine’s exhaust to drive a steam turbine that produces additional electricity. Generation from load-following plants can be ramped up and down as needed. Their capacity factor is usually less than 30% of the time. But they are more complex to maintain and more expensive to operate/

The power plant of “last resort” are peaker plants. They are turned on for even shorter periods of time to meet extremely high high demands, for example, when air conditioning is used during hot days. Due to their low capacity factor, which could be as low as a few hours for the entire year, they the most expensive type of generation.

How is power bought and sold in the US?

Electricity is bought and re-sold on the wholesale power market before finally reaching the final consumer.  With the exception of Texas, this market is regulated by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) due to the interstate nature of the grid.

The wholesale market is open to utility owned suppliers and marketers, non-utility independent power producers (IPPs), and excess generation from traditional vertically-operated utilities. Furthermore, participants in the wholesale market do not necessary have own generation capacity or serve the end-user. Much like other commodity markets, individual traders (power marketers) buy electricity on the market to re-sell it.

Once the electricity is procured from the wholesale market, it is sold to the final consumer through the retail market. In states where full retail competition exists, customers may choose from either their incumbent utility supplier or from an array of new competitive suppliers

How do grid operators work together?
Within the regional wholesale markets, grid operators organize under a regional transmission organization (RTO) or independent system operator (ISO). These entities serve as a third-party independent operator of the transmission system to control, monitor, and coordinate the operations of a grid.

About 60% of the U.S. electric power supply is managed by RTOs. Ten Regional Transmission Organizations (RTOs) operate bulk electric power systems across much of North America.

These operators ensure that no preference is given in the dispatch of a utility-owned generator over a competitive generator. Grid operators must be certified under the North American Electric Reliability Corporation (NERC).

Since PoW miners require 24x7 power, they draw down a large % of the Baseload power plants ,
which in turn means more Intermediate Load plants, are running longer,
and that when weather extremes happen, the “last resort” are peaker plants which if unable to meet the increased demand,
that is when the power grid operators start rolling blackouts to avoid the whole grid collapsing and transformers burning out.

Bitcoin Miners draw such large amounts of power in small regions , they totally remove a large % of the energy generated by the Baseload power plants.

If the Number of Bitcoin Mining devices were regulated to limit their number per power grid, then their power drain could be managed better by the power grid operators thus avoiding the rolling blackouts that have to happen to protect the grid.
* Regulating the number of ASICS per grid would have huge impact on Miners Profits as further separates locations increases their costs. Which is one reason Ethereum dev decided to avoid the potential coming government regulations by switching to PoS.*

A lot of people in the bitcoin community want to cry fud and ignore the power drain of PoW,
It is not fud, when the Power Grid operators start rolling blackouts, which has already happen in China and Iran,
which is why they started banning mining.
Power Grid operators only concern is protecting the Power grids, they don't care about bitcoins , altcoins or any of our opinions on algorithms, so the pretense that they are involved in fud is totally baseless, all they care about is a functioning power grid.

It is like this, Bitcoiners don't have to switch to PoS,
but they will have to do something to combat the energy drain they are placing on the power grids,
before the Governments step in and make the decision for them.
Which in China , they decided it was easier to ban bitcoin PoW mining than regulate it.

OK, then in that context, can we agree that Chrismas lights are also a wasteful/useless use of energy that doesn’t benefit society? Where’s the “Ban the Christmas Lights Foundation”, or people calling to ban them because it’s harmful for the environment? We don’t see them anywhere.

[TangentC]

OK, then in that context, can we agree that Chrismas lights are also a wasteful/useless use of energy that doesn’t benefit society? Where’s the “Ban the Christmas Lights Foundation”, or people calling to ban them because it’s harmful for the environment? We don’t see them anywhere.

Because
1. Christmas Lights moved to LEDs , which is way less power.

2. Christmas Lights are spread out across multiple power grids.

3. Christmas Lights don't run 24x7.

4. Christmas Lights usually only run for a few hours at night.

5. All of the world's Christmas lights are not in just a few warehouses overloading the electric grids.

So if you want the Bitcoin Bans to stop.
And still want to keep PoW.

1.  Improve Asics power usage by a factor of 8.5X.
2.  Regulate only 1 Asic per house hold.
3.  Only run ASICS at Night , 1 Month Out of the Year. 

Then you can compare it to Christmas Lights.

But to be honest , I am totally over the PoW verses PoS debates,
If the Bitcoin Cult refuses to evolve, then the bans will just keep increasing.
Solve the PoW energy waste problem or don't,
because at the end of the day if the devs fail to step up,
the governments will just outright ban it. (Like China Did.)
Energy Waste Problem solved.  

Have a Great Day.  

[Wind_FURY]

OK, then in that context, can we agree that Chrismas lights are also a wasteful/useless use of energy that doesn’t benefit society? Where’s the “Ban the Christmas Lights Foundation”, or people calling to ban them because it’s harmful for the environment? We don’t see them anywhere.

Because
1. Christmas Lights moved to LEDs , which is way less power.

2. Christmas Lights are spread out across multiple power grids.

3. Christmas Lights don't run 24x7.

4. Christmas Lights usually only run for a few hours at night.

5. All of the world's Christmas lights are not in just a few warehouses overloading the electric grids.

So if you want the Bitcoin Bans to stop.
And still want to keep PoW.

1.  Improve Asics power usage by a factor of 8.5X.
2.  Regulate only 1 Asic per house hold.
3.  Only run ASICS at Night , 1 Month Out of the Year.  

Then you can compare it to Christmas Lights.

But to be honest , I am totally over the PoW verses PoS debates,
If the Bitcoin Cult refuses to evolve, then the bans will just keep increasing.
Solve the PoW energy waste problem or don't,
because at the end of the day if the devs fail to step up,
the governments will just outright ban it. (Like China Did.)
Energy Waste Problem solved.  

Have a Great Day.  

I find the criticism hypocritical. Because IF Bitcoin solves, what you say is a “problem”, and switches to, if possible, POS, would you continue your criticism against other forms of wasteful uses of Elecricity? Or are you doing it because you hate Bitcoin?

Plus, who’s to say that POW is wasteful? It secures the network. The more energy spent, the more secure the network is. China cannot even do anything to attack Bitcoin through POW.

You say the network has no value. Who decides its value? You? I believe the market is saying that you are wrong, ser.

[amishmanish]

But to be honest , I am totally over the PoW verses PoS debates,
--snip--

If you were over it, you would stop making these ridiculous claims and assumptions. All you ever do is peddle PoS as a solution which it clearly is not.

You are intellectually dishonest and simply a Bitcoin hater. I guess one reason is that nobody accepts your viewpoint as worthy of a debate when it comes to real meaning of cryptocurrencies.

--snip--
the governments will just outright ban it. (Like China Did.)

Well that won't ever happen. An outright ban similar to China is out of the question. If it ever happens, you can say goodbye to all your crypto dreams including your PoS shitcoins.

[TangentC]

Bitcoiner Cult Speak.

--snip--
the governments will just outright ban it. (Like China Did.)

Well that won't ever happen. An outright ban similar to China is out of the question. If it ever happens, you can say goodbye to all your crypto dreams including your PoS shitcoins.

And until last week, none of you would have claimed China would have banned bitcoin mining.
But they did, time to get a clue my friend,
your vision of reality is tainted by bitcoin cultism, as such you have become blind to the dangers bitcoin now faces.
The reason the PoS verses PoW debate is over, is your side lost and are just too drenched in cult mentality to see it.
Look in the top 5 coins on CMK, only bitcoin is holding on to PoW, none of the rest are, so PoW has already lost,
the only real question is will the bitcoin cult leaders wise up and look for a solution or will the government bans be the solution.
Unlike Bitcoin PoW miners , no one can track a PoS staker location by energy usage.  
 
FYI:
The only debate now ,
is will Bitcoiners solve their energy waste issues or will the government solve bitcoin energy waste issue by banning it?

FYI2:
Get your crappy 2nd hand energy wasting ASIC for Proof of Waste Supporters while they last or until they are banned.
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/chinese-crackdown%3A-bitmain-stops-rig-sales-exodus-ensues-hash-rate-declines-2021-06-23

By halting sales, Bitmain claims it can help miners targeted by Chinese authorities to get better prices for their machines when exiting the industry. And in the long run, the mining rig maker giant could also benefit if the reduced supply ends up triggering a price increase for new rigs.

Translation: Bitmain has been mining in secret dominating the bitcoin mining, so now they have to sell those rigs they were using to rip off the rest of the miners.  

[Pmalek]

Look in the top 5 coins on CMK, only bitcoin is holding on to PoW, none of the rest are, so PoW has already lost.

Has it really lost? While you check the Top 5 coins on CoinMarketCap, you might want to take a glance at the top of the site where it says 'Dominance'. Bitcoin's dominance is currently at 46.5%, but I have seen it at 50% and even over 55%. What that tells you is that the POW-powered bitcoin has a market capitalization almost as big as all the other 10.000 coins and tokens. Just because many coins use a POS consensus, even those in the top 10/top 5, that doesn't make them better when the stats show that bitcoin beats them by a mile.     

[zbig001]

Unlike Bitcoin PoW miners , no one can track a PoS staker location by energy usage.  

Anyone can track the energy consumption of whales that own PoS networks and earn money to secure them.
Earning very well, otherwise they would have moved with their capital elsewhere and PoS networks would be characterized by low security.

That energy consumption occurs when they buy diamond jewelry or expensive shoes for their wives, or when they buy luxury yachts, private jets, luxury mansions, space trips, or pursue their innumerable expensive hobbies.

Global direct consumption of primary energy, both by the defenders of the existing traditional systems of concentration of wealth and power, and their modern cryptocurrency counterparts, is over 140,000 TWh per year (1 TWh equals 1,000,000,000,000 watts).

It is hard to miss even from orbit around the Earth.

Especially when specialized satellites measure how the oceans and Earth are slowly heading to the boiling point.

The only chance to stop the waste of energy and the possible destruction of Earth's life for the temporary benefit of people belonging to the elite is Bitcoin.

Especially if it becomes the backbone of the global monetary system.

[TangentC]

Unlike Bitcoin PoW miners , no one can track a PoS staker location by energy usage.  

Anyone can track the energy consumption of whales that own PoS networks and earn money to secure them.
Earning very well, otherwise they would have moved with their capital elsewhere and PoS networks would be characterized by low security.

Ok,
Guy you know nothing about Proof of Stake Energy usage,

So I shall school you in.

You know those laptops people use, that is the only hardware needed to run a proof of Stake network.
Laptops that use less power than your xbox,
Plus anyone can get a deep cycle battery and a few solar panels and run that laptop off that 24x7,
and no one knows since it draws zero power from the grid.

Proof of Stake Security is in the coin & code itself which is extremely energy efficient, not in the energy wasting asics like Proof of work.

FYI: The Security of a Network PoS or PoW is the Good Will of the Majority not the algorithm or energy used.

PoW is not more secure than PoS,
Both are secure or insecure depending on 1 specific condition , the Majority.

Many PoW Coins have suffered 51% attacks,
Many PoS  Coins have suffered 51% attacks.

Some PoW coin have never suffered a 51% attack.
Some PoS  coin have never suffered a 51% attack.

The algorithms themselves will not secure a coin,
all that secure PoW is the majority of Pooled Hashrate,  
all that secure PoS is the majority of staking coins.

So the good will of the majority is the answer for both.

In Bitcoin Case as long as the top 4 pool operators don't collude, bitcoin is safe,
but if the top 4 pool operators ever do collude, 51% attack in bitcoin is unstoppable.
Kind of makes you wonder why people think bitcoin is so secure, when only 4 guys could totally decimate it in a day.  

In Cardano Case, they have over 2500 PoS pools, and they limit the max % one pool can dominate by code design.
So Cardano PoS has more protection from colluding mining pool operators than Bitcoin PoW.  
Because the collusion would take a much greater majority of operators than 4 like BTC.


FYI:
In Bitcoin PoW history ,
the Majority Rewrote 6 hours of bitcoin blocks in 2013, proving the majority will move the PoW chain however they deem fit.
https://bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/bitcoin-network-shaken-by-blockchain-fork-1363144448

The economic damage was significant, but fairly small; the only monetary losses that have been reported are the $26,000 USD worth of mining block rewards from the 24 mined blocks of 25 BTC that are now forever lost in the now abandoned chain, as well as a $10,000 double spend against OKPay.

A Doublespend has occurred on the Bitcoin PoW network.  

No Doublespends have ever occurred on the Cardano PoS network.  

From the above, PoW does not seem all that secure.  

[zbig001]

The point is not whether the code is efficient (Bitcoin core is written in C++ so it is as efficient as possible).

The point is that a group of DLT network users who are capable of attacking or controlling the network should not use its power to the detriment of other users.
Indeed, code in the sense of asymmetric cryptography protects the funds that are under the control of your private key.
But it will not protect you from increasing inflation, undoing your transactions by reorganizing the chain, or from censoring your addresses.
The main thing that keeps your funds safe is financial incentives for those stronger than you (or some party capable of coming to an agreement and cooperating), so that it pays off for them to act honestly.

And it's not necessarily a consolation that some PoS coin has never been 51 attacked, because it is possible that it is just hopelessly centralized and centrally controlled.

PoS coins are unfortunately prone to centralization.

[TangentC]

The point is not whether the code is efficient (Bitcoin core is written in C++ so it is as efficient as possible).

The point is that a group of DLT network users who are capable of attacking or controlling the network should not use its power to the detriment of other users.
Indeed, code in the sense of asymmetric cryptography protects the funds that are under the control of your private key.
But it will not protect you from increasing inflation, undoing your transactions by reorganizing the chain, or from censoring your addresses.
The main thing that keeps your funds safe is financial incentives for those stronger than you (or some party capable of coming to an agreement and cooperating), so that it pays off for them to act honestly.

And it's not necessarily a consolation that some PoS coin has never been 51 attacked, because it is possible that it is just hopelessly centralized and centrally controlled.

PoS coins are unfortunately prone to centralization.

Hate to break it to you , everything is prone to centralization.

Look at your PoW, are the asics spread out across every home, Nope
they are centralized to a few energy sucking warehouses.
And on top of that, those warehouse centralized control to the pools ,
of which their are less than 4 or 5 that have over 51% on a daily basis for Years.

Compared that with Cardano,
that have over 2500 pools and has code that disincentives pools from growing too big.
In the Comparison , Cardano is more decentralized than the PoW bitcoin.

You want to trust just 4 pool operators with your money,
feel free, but don't for a second think you are more secure or decentralized.

[zbig001]

Remember that addresses or even private keys are not the same as people.
So in the case of PoS coins, you may try to impede centralization, but still one person/party can run a large number of pools or nodes.
It is impossible to stop it.

And that there is an endless list of reasons why an individual miner may not be able to survive in business.
While the staker makes profits automatically, which, combined with the reinvesting of profits, favors the concentration of coin ownership and therefore power over the network.

In the case of PoW currencies, the existence of pools does not necessarily mean centralization.
What matters is whether individual miners are free to change pools or set up new ones, which depends on many seemingly unrelated factors.
I would recommend you to read "The Blocksize War" by Jonathan Bier.

You will understand how deep the topic of decentralization is, and how difficult it is to design a system meant to last.

[TangentC]

I think the fact, that I am not a bitcoiner cultist insures that I will never see decentralization the way you do? 

Have a Great Day.   

[Dabs]

2.  Regulate only 1 Asic per house hold.

They can certainly try.

But to be honest , I am totally over the PoW verses PoS debates,

It does not look like it.

Hey, you can always make a fork of bitcoin and have it run on PoS, then feel free to use that, and there are indeed several coins that run on PoS.

A double spend has never happened because it is simply not possible. Only one transaction or block made it through, there was a reorg, or something, but it was not spent twice.