China - everything is fine! But everything is bad ...

[DrBeer]

China - everything is fine! But everything is bad ...

The other day I came across one very interesting article. True, it is in Russian, so I will give here a translation of the key parts for discussion. And you can read the article itself using google translate.

Link to article: https://eduardrubin.blogspot.com/2021/08/blog-post.html

And now the key blocks that seem to me to be the most interesting for discussion. The essence of the article - on the one hand, we see the "beauty" of the Chinese economy, incredible leaps in production and technology, prospects, the struggle for world domination ... But it turns out to be behind a screen that hides reality from us, things are not so good. And some of the processes that have begun to take place - and generally look very negative ... I am interested in your opinion - what will happen to China in the coming years? The collapse of the economy and the existing economic freedoms, or will the government still give preference to development rather than preserving their places and subordinating those who want to think and live as a free person?

"... China, in order to become the first power in the world and the world financial center, had to deny the Communist Party (CCP) a monopoly on capital. This did not happen, from my point of view, China failed its civilizational choice. no, we'll see in fifty years.
The CCP, after decades of being a freeman named Deng Xiaoping, is tightening the screws on all of its entrepreneurs. It is still possible to earn money, it is already forbidden to receive a representation for this money. That is, you can earn a lot, but more than a certain amount or under certain conditions is no longer possible. "

".... The CCP, by the way, are talking about this directly. Chinese elders want international investments to enter China not where it is profitable for them, but where the CCP needs. The CCP still loves Huawei and ZTE, because they are controlled by 146 %.
And the rest of the market, which has blossomed in China, is now a pitchfork. Because capital always requires political representation, and the CCP is not ready to give it. The story that stability (tm) can provide an inflow of investments ends. The age-old question of whether capital provides gradual democratization has once again been answered that, yes, it does. And now, within the framework of China's new path, this democratization is curtailed - along with capital, which did not even have time to really generate it. "

"... The Communist Party puts under control the capital that roamed during the Chinese NEP. Because it is afraid of this capital. The Bukhara slogan of 1925" Get rich, accumulate, develop your economy! " and his interpretation by Deng Xiaoping from 1978 "White cat, black cat ... The main thing is that she catches rats."
The CCP's control over capital will significantly add the tactical fortress of the Chinese model and strengthen Xi Jipin's power, but strategically it is encapsulation. Chinese capital is being forcibly torn away from the world. Separate non-transparent rules of the game and social obligations are imposed on them. And, the further, the more difficult it will be for China to follow the achievements of the Western world, because capital has to move on its own, if not it is not capital, but the party moves. "

The problem is that the Chinese Communist Party realized that "the people received a lot of freedom, and began to adopt Western freedoms, and consider it natural. This means that there is no totalitarian power, there is no total submission, there is no total control. This means that the weight of the CCP is losing its influence. "

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[mu_enrico]

USSR dissolved in 70 years, but CCP now marks its tight grip for 72 years. Are we heading to the endgame of CCP? Maybe, because of covid. The problem with communism/socialism is always about the economy where the higher up corrupt as fuck enriching their inner circle, and the ordinary people remain poor (yes, 1st world countries also have corruption problem, BUT it's not as severe as China). Add it with no freedom of speech and stuff, including covid as the accelerant, literally will make suffering to the max.

Humans can break with a particular level of suffering, and once they break, the government will collapse.

[Hydrogen]

Humans can break with a particular level of suffering, and once they break, the government will collapse.

I was wondering if chinese might revolt against corruption, brutality and inhumane treatment. Then I remembered much of china's history is defined by one corrupt and inhumane ruling regime or another. Chinese rulers have a long and brutal history of punishing lawbreakers and dissidents using the most painful, unusual and barbaric methods they could devise. This trend stems far back in their history, long before communists had taken over the country. In some ways, a case might be made for chinese communists being more tolerant and humane than previous ruling dynasty's from china's past history.

To cite one possible example of this:

Lingchi (simplified Chinese: 凌迟; traditional Chinese: 凌遲), translated variously as the slow process, the lingering death, or slow slicing, and also known as death by a thousand cuts, was a form of torture and execution used in China from roughly 900 until it was banned in 1905. It was also used in Vietnam and Korea. In this form of execution, a knife was used to methodically remove portions of the body over an extended period of time, eventually resulting in death.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingchi

Does anyone remember traditional chinese foot binding of women?

It is possible that suffering has been culturally mandated by chinese culture for many years. Which could leave them without much in the way of alternative ideas of how to do things.

[Darker45]

The moment the Chinese government provides wider freedom to its people is the moment they question and even challenge the government's policies. And I guess the government itself is fully aware of this and, therefore, won't give it to its people. Dissents, oppositions, and the like are to be nipped in the bud. The Chinese people are free for as long as they toe the line. They are free within the boundaries set by the government.

For as long as the people are afraid, ignorant, sufficiently indoctrinated or brainwashed, and are completely willing to submit themselves to the government, everything's fine. That's the kind of fine in China right now. To another's standard, that's gruesome.

[Xinarae*]

Although china's policy towards the people is far away the coronavirus originated from china. Then america europe russia are all against china in their hiding and various incidents it can be said that the work of uniting china in various ways including trade and commerce has started needless to say that is why they have chosen india as an alternative in our area. You will notice the sudden india china conflict and the feeling of war nothing happened that made the fight urgent in fact the problem is in one place and its impact is on the border it is only natural that china should look for friends in this region now.

[mu_enrico]

I was wondering if chinese might revolt against corruption, brutality and inhumane treatment. Then I remembered much of china's history is defined by one corrupt and inhumane ruling regime or another.

Interesting theory. Perhaps that could make Chinese's "suffering tolerance" extremely high, thus revolt only happened at the very last. But, according to the List of rebellions in China, they actually had many, but yeah the successful one took a long time.

I still think that the people will revolt no matter how deep the brainwashing and propaganda. It is useless if there is hunger in the streets. The hate will build up from the suffering, and finally released.

[bryant.coleman]

USSR dissolved in 70 years, but CCP now marks its tight grip for 72 years. Are we heading to the endgame of CCP? Maybe, because of covid. The problem with communism/socialism is always about the economy where the higher up corrupt as fuck enriching their inner circle, and the ordinary people remain poor (yes, 1st world countries also have corruption problem, BUT it's not as severe as China). Add it with no freedom of speech and stuff, including covid as the accelerant, literally will make suffering to the max.

Humans can break with a particular level of suffering, and once they break, the government will collapse.

The CCP has avoided mistakes that were committed by the other socialist nations. It is being said that the main reason for the collapse of the USSR was the crash in the oil prices. But that was just a trigger. The real reason was the huge increase in unproductive population in the central Asian states like Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, which overburdened the European part of the USSR. And China is taking steps to avoid a repetition of that scenario. They have imposed strict birth controls in Xinjiang, to prevent the unproductive population from exploding.

[The Ghoul]

what will happen to China in the coming years? The collapse of the economy and the existing economic freedoms, or will the government still give preference to development rather than preserving their places and subordinating those who want to think and live as a free person?

First of all, I want to talk about "who want to think and live as a free person". We accuse China of not being free, but on the other hand, China implements 9-year compulsory education. So that everyone, whether you are poor or rich, must complete 9 years of basic learning.

This is the knowledge that gives people the ability to think normally. (Don't discuss with me that education is a kind of thought control) Chinese mathematics, physics, chemistry and other disciplines that require logical thinking are very good at all.

“development” and “preserving their places and subordinating those who want to think and live as a free person”.These two points are not in conflict. China's development needs these people with progressive ideas. China needs to train these people more

And, the further, the more difficult it will be for China to follow the achievements of the Western world, because capital has to move on its own, if not it is not capital, but the party moves. "

China does not need to emulate Western countries. China is implementing the path of socialism with Chinese characteristics. In China’s eyes, there is actually not such a strong class struggle. China needs to develop, and China will use all methods suitable for China to develop.

The problem is that the Chinese Communist Party realized that "the people received a lot of freedom, and began to adopt Western freedoms, and consider it natural. This means that there is no totalitarian power, there is no total submission, there is no total control. This means that the weight of the CCP is losing its influence.

China will not go out because it does not want to get a vaccine or wear a mask, because China's education penetration rate is much higher than that of Western countries. Nor do they drink disinfectant water to prevent covid-19.

Interesting theory. Perhaps that could make Chinese's "suffering tolerance" extremely high, thus revolt only happened at the very last.

“suffering”？If it makes my life better and better, I would rather “suffer”.Not unemployed at home.

[Snappycoco]

"... China, in order to become the first power in the world and the world financial center, had to deny the Communist Party (CCP) a monopoly on capital. This did not happen, from my point of view, China failed its civilizational choice. no, we'll see in fifty years.
The CCP, after decades of being a freeman named Deng Xiaoping, is tightening the screws on all of its entrepreneurs. It is still possible to earn money, it is already forbidden to receive a representation for this money. That is, you can earn a lot, but more than a certain amount or under certain conditions is no longer possible. "

I don't know if this could be related to Jack Ma's sudden disappearance. Being the richest man in China isn't even a guarantee that you have your freedom. I even saw this article (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenniferwang/2021/01/07/disappearing-billionaires-jack-ma-and-other-chinese-moguls-who-have-mysteriously-dropped-off-the-radar/?sh=55488deb2187) where most of their Billionaires are disappearing without a trace and that includes the great Jack Ma himself.

[Nora Olin]

I was wondering if chinese might revolt against corruption, brutality and inhumane treatment. Then I remembered much of china's history is defined by one corrupt and inhumane ruling regime or another.

Interesting theory. Perhaps that could make Chinese's "suffering tolerance" extremely high, thus revolt only happened at the very last. But, according to the List of rebellions in China, they actually had many, but yeah the successful one took a long time.

I still think that the people will revolt no matter how deep the brainwashing and propaganda. It is useless if there is hunger in the streets. The hate will build up from the suffering, and finally released.

In fact, it is related to traditional Chinese culture. It turns out that the Confucian culture has caused people to come into contact with this kind of education from an early age. This kind of Chinese education is forbearance. The public revolt against the Qing Dynasty talked about one for gaining benefits, while the other felt that it had nothing to do with him and regarded himself as the masses. There is no justice or evil, only eternal benefits.
Times are slowly changing, and the conditions of the Chinese people are also changing. When they face rights, they usually forbear, fear in their hearts. The root of China's inferiority complex, especially in the earliest dynasties, is more obvious.

[JillianTaft]

I was wondering if chinese might revolt against corruption, brutality and inhumane treatment. Then I remembered much of china's history is defined by one corrupt and inhumane ruling regime or another.

Interesting theory. Perhaps that could make Chinese's "suffering tolerance" extremely high, thus revolt only happened at the very last. But, according to the List of rebellions in China, they actually had many, but yeah the successful one took a long time.

I still think that the people will revolt no matter how deep the brainwashing and propaganda. It is useless if there is hunger in the streets. The hate will build up from the suffering, and finally released.

In fact, it is related to traditional Chinese culture. It turns out that the Confucian culture has caused people to come into contact with this kind of education from an early age. This kind of Chinese education is forbearance. The public revolt against the Qing Dynasty talked about one for gaining benefits, while the other felt that it had nothing to do with him and regarded himself as the masses. There is no justice or evil, only eternal benefits.
Times are slowly changing, and the conditions of the Chinese people are also changing. When they face rights, they usually forbear, fear in their hearts. The root of China's inferiority complex, especially in the earliest dynasties, is more obvious.

First of all, the Chinese were not like this at the beginning. If we read the history of China carefully, we will clearly see that the ancient Chinese and later Chinese do not seem to be the same species. There is a big gap between them, which makes me very different. It shocked me.
The foundation of Chinese morality is loyalty and filial piety. Every change of dynasty is humiliating. Most people will choose to live in humiliation. For most Chinese people, this is a personal frustration and self-denial.
In this case, if you choose to "surrender", the Chinese people's self-esteem and self-confidence are repeatedly destroyed, and they make compromises in the face of any power.

[amishmanish]

Although the translation from another language is imperfect, the original article does a very good analysis of the situation. This could very well be a subject in itself. The fact that the article is by a Russian publication means that they must know what they are talking about. Some very good points here. It starts with speculating about the future of Chinese model to which we already have a reply from a Chinese well-wisher or probably just one of those CCP handles.

what will happen to China in the coming years? The collapse of the economy and the existing economic freedoms, or will the government still give preference to development rather than preserving their places and subordinating those who want to think and live as a free person?

First of all, I want to talk about "who want to think and live as a free person". We accuse China of not being free, but on the other hand, China implements 9-year compulsory education. So that everyone, whether you are poor or rich, must complete 9 years of basic learning.

My dear Chinese puppet, when people in the rest of the world talk about "thinking and living as a free person", it is not about getting education or some other facility from a government. It is simply about having the freedom to express yourself as a human being. All humans are different. Nobody is perfect. In a free society, all of those voices are allowed space and expression and collectively, they decide on a path forward. Its definitely not perfect but that does not mean that one body making decisions for everybody while nobody is allowed to criticise the said hallowed body is not the way of free people.

You definitely find it hard to understand as is evident from another one of your stupid arguments.

“suffering”？If it makes my life better and better, I would rather “suffer”.Not unemployed at home.

Just this acceptance that material prosperity can somehow make up for freedom of choice and expression is the problem with your whole argument.

Moving on from this obvious CCP sockpuppet, the article makes some very interesting points.

The CCP, after decades of being a freeman named Deng Xiaoping, is tightening the screws on all of its entrepreneurs.

Chinese elders want international investments to enter China not where it is profitable for them, but where the CCP needs.

The age-old question of whether capital provides gradual democratization has once again been answered that, yes, it does. And now, within the framework of China's new path, this democratization is curtailed - along with capital, which did not even have time to really generate it. "

The CCP's control over capital will significantly add the tactical fortress of the Chinese model and strengthen Xi Jipin's power, but strategically it is encapsulation. Chinese capital is being forcibly torn away from the world. Separate non-transparent rules of the game and social obligations are imposed on them.

The problem is that the Chinese Communist Party realized that "the people received a lot of freedom, and began to adopt Western freedoms, and consider it natural. This means that there is no totalitarian power, there is no total submission, there is no total control. This means that the weight of the CCP is losing its influence. "

These points very effectively explain the recent actions of CCP against a host of its own entrepreneurs. More importantly, i think it also provides an interesting explanation to the CCPs insistence of use of a CBDC while acting against Bitcoin. Bitcoin is the very essence of power to people and open-ness. You can never fully suppress or control it. The CCP, shrewd as always, understands that the world is moving to digital currencies and is probably just pre-empting for this scenario of ending up as compartmentalized.

[Obito]

It's to be expected, China wants to look good in the international stage plus they're known to suppress information that is detrimental to their images and it's unlikely they will change their ways, remember the whistleblowers imprisoned during the start of the pandemic before it was even a pandemic, they detained them because they want to suppress information.

[Ucy]

People can still be very much free without going through the route the modern world is going through. Your law has to based on Love for GOD (the CREATOR of this World) and people, and you can't really do this on your own... You need to be released from a prison/matrix and have the Good Spirit guide you.  The Free people should lead those still in prison (not the other way around or blind leading blind) until everyone is eventually free. Besides, a society can achieve this without being authoritarian or a dictatorship

[The Ghoul]

It starts with speculating about the future of Chinese model to which we already have a reply from a Chinese well-wisher or probably just one of those CCP handles.

In your opinion, all people who speak good things about China are CCPs?

My dear Chinese puppet, when people in the rest of the world talk about "thinking and living as a free person".it is not about getting education or some other facility from a government.

All posts saying that China is good are called "Chinese puppets"?This is in the forum, my defense for China will be under the responsibility of people like you.This is the so-called "thinking and living as a free person".

Its definitely not perfect but that does not mean that one body making decisions for everybody while nobody is allowed to criticise the said hallowed body is not the way of free people.

Everyone has a say, and everyone decides the direction together? No, there will never be a consensus, there will always be stupid people who cast their stupid votes.

So my dear, “free-thinking puppet”, can you still live under your caste system??

[davis196]

And, the further, the more difficult it will be for China to follow the achievements of the Western world, because capital has to move on its own, if not it is not capital, but the party moves. "

I disagree with that.China has very good intelligence and awesome hackers.The Chinese are very good at stealing technology from the west,so I don't think that it would be difficult for China to follow the achievements of the Western world.
China has accumulated lots of capital and it will accumulate even more in the future.A part of this capital might run away from China,but there's still lot's of it.
The CCP will keep it's power and authority in the future decades.I'm not a fan of the Chinese Communist Party,but we can't deny the fact that China turned from a third world country into a global economic powerhouse for about 30 years.

[Kong Hey Pakboy]

People can still be very much free without going through the route the modern world is going through. Your law has to based on Love for GOD (the CREATOR of this World) and people, and you can't really do this on your own... You need to be released from a prison/matrix and have the Good Spirit guide you.  The Free people should lead those still in prison (not the other way around or blind leading blind) until everyone is eventually free. Besides, a society can achieve this without being authoritarian or a dictatorship

You're teaching them another way to be controlled which is religion. I like to borrow what Dennis Diderot said, "Man will never truly be free until the last king is strangled by the entrails of the last priest." Also, given the human nature, I don't think we will soon let go of dictatorship, we love power and it corrupts the good. China is a cage and people don't know it because they're blinded by the fact that they're bombarded by propaganda and that they are being lied to.

[paxmao]

China - everything is fine! But everything is bad ...
...
"... The Communist Party puts under control the capital that roamed during the Chinese NEP. Because it is afraid of this capital. The Bukhara slogan of 1925" Get rich, accumulate, develop your economy! " and his interpretation by Deng Xiaoping from 1978 "White cat, black cat ... The main thing is that she catches rats."
...

The problem is that the Chinese Communist Party realized that "the people received a lot of freedom, and began to adopt Western freedoms, and consider it natural. This means that there is no totalitarian power, there is no total submission, there is no total control. This means that the weight of the CCP is losing its influence. "

Certainly, a good article. The bottom of it can be described in a couple of sentences: Either you have free market and you benefit from it or you have a controlled economy and you do not benefit from individual entrepreneurship. Not that fully free markets do not come with its own set of problems. For an authoritarian regime, there is an obvious catch: wealthy people have tremendous influence and entrepreneurs  do things first and then ask permission or apologize. That is incompatible with the CCP retaining the degree of social control that is required to control power.

The choice is clear: have a poorer China, yet still strong, with a limited ability to create and invent outside the official guidelines thus with a handicap imbedded into their system. Yet that is going to be the choice, because the first rule of politics is "gain power", the second one is "remain in power" and the third one is "in case of doubt, read rules 1 and 2"

[DrBeer]

USSR dissolved in 70 years, but CCP now marks its tight grip for 72 years. Are we heading to the endgame of CCP? Maybe, because of covid. The problem with communism/socialism is always about the economy where the higher up corrupt as fuck enriching their inner circle, and the ordinary people remain poor (yes, 1st world countries also have corruption problem, BUT it's not as severe as China). Add it with no freedom of speech and stuff, including covid as the accelerant, literally will make suffering to the max.

Humans can break with a particular level of suffering, and once they break, the government will collapse.

The CCP has avoided mistakes that were committed by the other socialist nations. It is being said that the main reason for the collapse of the USSR was the crash in the oil prices. But that was just a trigger. The real reason was the huge increase in unproductive population in the central Asian states like Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, which overburdened the European part of the USSR. And China is taking steps to avoid a repetition of that scenario. They have imposed strict birth controls in Xinjiang, to prevent the unproductive population from exploding.

Let me disagree here. There were problems, but others:
1. The real drop in budget revenues due to the fall in oil prices
2. Absolutely unbalanced, manually controlled economy, the efficiency of which tends to zero.
3. Total impoverishment of the population, falling living standards.
4. Internal discord between the "old communists" and almost organized crime represented by the security forces.

Regarding internal migration to the USSR (this is about the migration of Tajiks and Uzbeks to the European part of the USSR). So, in short, migration was an extremely difficult process. To leave the settlement where you were assigned. In the USSR, there was such a concept of "registration" - these are the binding of a citizen to a certain place of residence, you cannot change it yourself, only when you change jobs, get married. In the USSR, there was no concept of free movement. To make it clear - villagers, peasants, in general, until the mid-1970s did not have passports, which means they did not have the right to go anywhere until such an action was approved for them, and it was extremely rare, because everyone tried to "run away" from the village - there people were not even paid for their work with money - most of them were given out with grain, potatoes, etc. agricultural crops and only a minimal part - with real money ... This is the reality of the USSR by 1980 ...

[DrBeer]

China - everything is fine! But everything is bad ...
...
"... The Communist Party puts under control the capital that roamed during the Chinese NEP. Because it is afraid of this capital. The Bukhara slogan of 1925" Get rich, accumulate, develop your economy! " and his interpretation by Deng Xiaoping from 1978 "White cat, black cat ... The main thing is that she catches rats."
...

The problem is that the Chinese Communist Party realized that "the people received a lot of freedom, and began to adopt Western freedoms, and consider it natural. This means that there is no totalitarian power, there is no total submission, there is no total control. This means that the weight of the CCP is losing its influence. "

Certainly, a good article. The bottom of it can be described in a couple of sentences: Either you have free market and you benefit from it or you have a controlled economy and you do not benefit from individual entrepreneurship. Not that fully free markets do not come with its own set of problems. For an authoritarian regime, there is an obvious catch: wealthy people have tremendous influence and entrepreneurs  do things first and then ask permission or apologize. That is incompatible with the CCP retaining the degree of social control that is required to control power.

The choice is clear: have a poorer China, yet still strong, with a limited ability to create and invent outside the official guidelines thus with a handicap imbedded into their system. Yet that is going to be the choice, because the first rule of politics is "gain power", the second one is "remain in power" and the third one is "in case of doubt, read rules 1 and 2"

Here a nuance was added - the Communist Party of China, having given some freedom for entrepreneurship, and due to its advantageous position to become a manufacturer of everything for everyone, received a very high-quality result. BUT. This also resulted in the growth of "free-thinking", "uncontrolled business", and the emergence of really large private companies that can create noticeable problems for the very same Communist Party of China. And now they have a problem - to further develop the economy with the hands of "free people", or to start "tightening the screws", to transfer everything under state control, to reduce the number of "free independent heads". Well, plus also external factors such as the status of "the birthplace of coronavirus" which is clearly negative in general, and the "Asian Tiger" - which promises a fight in the world market, with not very high positive outcomes