China - everything is fine! But everything is bad ...

[Easteregg69]

Don't read it.

[wxa7115]

USSR dissolved in 70 years, but CCP now marks its tight grip for 72 years. Are we heading to the endgame of CCP? Maybe, because of covid. The problem with communism/socialism is always about the economy where the higher up corrupt as fuck enriching their inner circle, and the ordinary people remain poor (yes, 1st world countries also have corruption problem, BUT it's not as severe as China). Add it with no freedom of speech and stuff, including covid as the accelerant, literally will make suffering to the max.

Humans can break with a particular level of suffering, and once they break, the government will collapse.

The reason China is lasting for a longer amount of time than the USSR has to do with the fact that they made a compromise on their views, they accepted that it was impossible for them to remain 100% communist and they accepted a little bit of capitalism in order to survive, but they are not realizing that even that small amount of capitalism is going to be enough to bring China down.

In a way this is very similar to what happened to Sparta and Athens, Sparta was obsessed with maintaining their society just as it was and when they finally beat Athens they thought that everything was going to be fine but then the cultural and economic freedom of Athens got all over Sparta like a virus eventually causing its fall, and I expect something similar to happen to China.

[DrBeer]

The fundamental difference between communism and capitalism is the private ownership of large amount of capitals
In communism, only state owns large properties like land and vital enterprises, private person are not even able to own their own land, at best they own the house built on land borrowed from state
This gives them a huge advantage when the country is under fast development and construction, since all the resources in the country can be utilized by a single directive. They could isolate and kill the virus by quarantine since all the people in country must comply with CCP leadership.
While in a capitalism country, what you see is much slower development in infrastructure, all the private land owners have different interests, and they can not reach an agreement easily. An infrastructure project can drag out for decades to finish
If you happened to own lots of properties, you definitely want to stay in western and enjoy your freedom in your own land; but if you own nothing, you feel better in China where you can just spend half a dollar travel with good public transport in major cities, 2 dollar for delicious and cheap meal, and 300 dollars for renting a nice apartment a month

In theory, you should also believe in tooth fairies
And now about the reality - communism is a social system, the basis of production relations for which is social ownership of the means of production, in which there is no division into classes, the opposition between town and country, between mental and physical labor, has been eliminated, and distribution according to needs is carried out.
This is the classic definition. Now answer 2 questions:
1. Why is your description of communism completely inconsistent with its concept?
2. Name the countries with an attempt to implement communism, and where did something at least 1% work out, besides totalitarianism?

[electronicash]

china has control over their people. but this is no different in every country because government has the authority to do so. its citizen whether they like it or not they are bound to the laws of government.

I am not sure about the level of control they have but what i know is that if anyone who stands against the government will be prosecuted in China and they will form some sort of manipulating in prosecuting anyone who stands against them to convince the general public and the difference is that in the Western world you cannot always get away just like that.

Snowden and Assange are just few of the whistle blowers being silenced. Theyd have to seek nuetral places to be free otherwise theyd be prosecuted too. There is no freedom everywhere actually.

Even with the situation with Snowden and Assange the majority of the general public will not believe what the government tells all the time and that freedom cannot be enjoyed by people in China to even raise their voice against the government and that is a huge difference.

exactly what governments are doing, they want to control and we can't just fight it because we all belong to our government. people in China or in US are no different.
the Chinese have freedom, the rate of tourists everywhere is that Chinese are the top tourist, they have the freedom to travel. today, they even invest in many countries buying hectares of land in every place. isn't that freedom achieved by the Chinese?

they can talk against their government, they just have to do it in hiding. but they can talk out loud if they are somewhere else but don't expect the government will just cry. every government hasn't proved to be effective.

if you take a look at democratic countries today and how they are rattled by people's freedom compare to the communist/socialist countries. its not fun for the government's side and it's not fun for the peace-loving people when there are protesting everywhere becuase everyone got a gun of their own because of the 2nd menment.

[Sithara007]

The reason China is lasting for a longer amount of time than the USSR has to do with the fact that they made a compromise on their views, they accepted that it was impossible for them to remain 100% communist and they accepted a little bit of capitalism in order to survive, but they are not realizing that even that small amount of capitalism is going to be enough to bring China down.

In a way this is very similar to what happened to Sparta and Athens, Sparta was obsessed with maintaining their society just as it was and when they finally beat Athens they thought that everything was going to be fine but then the cultural and economic freedom of Athens got all over Sparta like a virus eventually causing its fall, and I expect something similar to happen to China.

I don't agree with any of the points you have posted here. The economic system in China is almost 100% capitalist. They moved away from the failed socialist system many decades ago (after watching what happened in the former USSR). Until the 1980s, China was both authoritarian and socialist. Now China is authoritarian and capitalist. And this is the most successful political system.

Democracy has failed all over the world. The democratic governments need to increase their handouts and freebie distribution every year to remain in power and this has meant that in almost all of the democracies, the federal debt is now more than 100% of the GDP. This is not a viable scenario in the long term. China on the other hand has managed to remain free of the debt-trap, even with very low tax levels.

[electronicash]

The reason China is lasting for a longer amount of time than the USSR has to do with the fact that they made a compromise on their views, they accepted that it was impossible for them to remain 100% communist and they accepted a little bit of capitalism in order to survive, but they are not realizing that even that small amount of capitalism is going to be enough to bring China down.

In a way this is very similar to what happened to Sparta and Athens, Sparta was obsessed with maintaining their society just as it was and when they finally beat Athens they thought that everything was going to be fine but then the cultural and economic freedom of Athens got all over Sparta like a virus eventually causing its fall, and I expect something similar to happen to China.

I don't agree with any of the points you have posted here. The economic system in China is almost 100% capitalist. They moved away from the failed socialist system many decades ago (after watching what happened in the former USSR). Until the 1980s, China was both authoritarian and socialist. Now China is authoritarian and capitalist. And this is the most successful political system.

Democracy has failed all over the world. The democratic governments need to increase their handouts and freebie distribution every year to remain in power and this has meant that in almost all of the democracies, the federal debt is now more than 100% of the GDP. This is not a viable scenario in the long term. China on the other hand has managed to remain free of the debt-trap, even with very low tax levels.

this could also be the reason why China is investing everywhere like in Africa to Europe to which they have done so for almost 20 years now. they couldn't just spend their money to build infrastructures around the depressed area in China because they need more money coming into them and to realize this, they need the belt and road. the silk road of old times where they can trade to the outside world.

true they are capitalist now but they don't have all the resources, this is even the reason why they want Taiwan back to join the mainland. they grab contested islands in SCS because they needed all these resources not just for military force. i'm sure they are willing to go to war for this power they have. they need to protect themselves to remain rich but so is the US.

[amishmanish]

No, Democracy doesn't mean that "everyone decides the direction together". Representative Democracy means that everyone gets to choose their representative. It is also not just about the election procedure but also about having a free press and giving people the right to criticize those who govern them. I understand the concept is alien to you.

In a free society, all of those voices are allowed space and expression and collectively, they decide on a path forward.

It turns out that freedom is defined by you. The definition you defined yesterday is different from the definition you defined today.

Your interpretation of those two sentences above as "contradictory" is just indicative of your communist background. You are finding it hard to understand the idiomatic usage of "All voices are allowed space", when talking about Freedom of expression in the context of Democracy as opposed to the controlled flow of information and Party high-handedness in such matters in your communist utopia.

What are your thoughts on your country? What path have you chosen now? Has your country followed the path you chose?Have you chosen the person you wish to be represented？You are all strangers to these, Sudra.

everyone gets to choose their representative？Do you know what the people's congress system is? China’s current system is what you call freedom.

That rhetoric and whataboutery adds nothing to the debate of Freedom vs Communist Control. Like I said in my previous post, the free people of the world can see through the Chinese agenda of trying to portray their "system" as superior. The world has been through this charade multiple times. Stop jailing your businessmen for "picking quarrels" and maybe we'll talk.

The sentence "Stupid people who cast their stupid votes" is used to refute what you said, everyone decides the direction together.Now that you have corrected what you said earlier, then this sentence is of course invalid.

I haven't "corrected" myself. Its just idiomatic usage that I wouldn't expect a CCP puppet to understand. You are forgiven for your ignorance. Lets move on.

Do you recognize the mistake of extreme liberalism in your mouth? Or you just deliberately made these logically unreasonable remarks simply because you are prejudiced against CCP.

I don't know what you mean by "extreme liberalism in your mouth". From my understanding of the playbook of CCP handles like yours, I guess you are trying to strengthen your argument by quoting the constant Conservative vs Liberalism debate of western democracies as some sort of weakness.

Isn't the exploitation of cheap labor just the patent of capitalism?

No it isn't. Those in power everywhere have always looked for ways to exploit cheap labor enabled by the masses. Capitalism looks for reducing costs and optimizing profitability doesn't mean that the Chinese haven't exploited labor.

Do you have an in-depth understanding of the case in your mouth? Still heard everything you know now in the media. Hope to take a good look at the information before you give examples.

Duh..Stop comparing intellect dude. Say what you want to say. You aren't convincing anyone on the forum that you aren't a CCP handle or that China's system of control and monitoring is somehow a glowing example for the rest of the world to emulate.

[istiak2277]

Humans can break with a particular level of suffering, and once they break, the government will collapse.

China has controlled its large population ever since its holding its communist ideology. It's true there is a high level of corruption but its people do not protest about it because they know what will happens if they do so. As long as a countries economy is doing well and people are not starving to death they won't make any movements for collapsing the government in a country like China.

[Reid]

They have the highest production rate of the different things sold for a cheap price.
People have jobs but that's it. You can't really get rich doing the daily job given to you. And there will be problems like health if you are working in a factory or other chemical manufacturing industry.
It will not take long before a civil war will happen. People of China will get exhausted about their daily repeated lives without the freedom to choose what they want to do. It looks good on the outside being on top of the production industry but it stinks on the inside with high labor and low salary.

[Kimonoe]

Humans can break with a particular level of suffering, and once they break, the government will collapse.

China has controlled its large population ever since its holding its communist ideology. It's true there is a high level of corruption but its people do not protest about it because they know what will happens if they do so. As long as a countries economy is doing well and people are not starving to death they won't make any movements for collapsing the government in a country like China.

Even though the crackdowns occur continuously and get severe punishments, it seems that the corruptors are always looking for loopholes to commit corruption. but we can see big countries such as China that carry out a communist system, where equality for the entire population is going well. and until now China is a big country that influences most countries in the world

[Boov]

They have the highest production rate of the different things sold for a cheap price.
People have jobs but that's it. You can't really get rich doing the daily job given to you. And there will be problems like health if you are working in a factory or other chemical manufacturing industry.
It will not take long before a civil war will happen. People of China will get exhausted about their daily repeated lives without the freedom to choose what they want to do. It looks good on the outside being on top of the production industry but it stinks on the inside with high labor and low salary.

Indeed they had everything to be put in power as well as controlling their economy within their desired standards. Communism in China had raised their country at top position with respect to business, and integrity of their competition along with other countries who developed quality products. Though the underlying issues they're facing right now about the low paying job for their countrymen, leaked but no confirmation yet from their leaders because media can't scrutinize deeply due to no democracy.

[StanleyBoyle]

3. Their goal is communism. In Marx's introduction to communism:

communism is a political viewpoint and ideological system, its birthplace is in Germany. Today's communism is based on Marx and Engels. Communism advocates the abolition of the private ownership of the means of production, the establishment of a society without class systems, exploitation, and oppression, and the realization of human self-liberation. It is also a society of socialized collective production, which will unite in the face of evil forces. The communists believe that in the future, all class societies will eventually transition to a communist society in which each will do its best and take each one's needs, and the ideology of human society will enter an advanced stage. I think this is a wonderful world.

The Chinese people believe in Marxism, but at present they are only at the initial stage of socialism. It is very difficult to truly transform to communism, and it may not be possible to truly realize communism.

[Kakmakr]

USSR dissolved in 70 years, but CCP now marks its tight grip for 72 years. Are we heading to the endgame of CCP? Maybe, because of covid. The problem with communism/socialism is always about the economy where the higher up corrupt as fuck enriching their inner circle, and the ordinary people remain poor (yes, 1st world countries also have corruption problem, BUT it's not as severe as China). Add it with no freedom of speech and stuff, including covid as the accelerant, literally will make suffering to the max.

Humans can break with a particular level of suffering, and once they break, the government will collapse.

The thing is.... the Chinese culture is so disciplined that they will not rise up to stop this. If things like this happened in Western countries, people will rebel against it and they will vote against the ruling party to remove their power, but this is sadly not happening in China. 

Let's not forget that we are dealing with a country with the oldest civilization in the world.... they should be teaching us how to be successful and we should be learning from their mistakes. 

I doubt if the CCP or their economy will collapse or end anytime soon. 

[DrBeer]

USSR dissolved in 70 years, but CCP now marks its tight grip for 72 years. Are we heading to the endgame of CCP? Maybe, because of covid. The problem with communism/socialism is always about the economy where the higher up corrupt as fuck enriching their inner circle, and the ordinary people remain poor (yes, 1st world countries also have corruption problem, BUT it's not as severe as China). Add it with no freedom of speech and stuff, including covid as the accelerant, literally will make suffering to the max.

Humans can break with a particular level of suffering, and once they break, the government will collapse.

The thing is.... the Chinese culture is so disciplined that they will not rise up to stop this. If things like this happened in Western countries, people will rebel against it and they will vote against the ruling party to remove their power, but this is sadly not happening in China. 

Let's not forget that we are dealing with a country with the oldest civilization in the world.... they should be teaching us how to be successful and we should be learning from their mistakes. 

I doubt if the CCP or their economy will collapse or end anytime soon. 

First, remember the axiom:
Old age is not equal to wisdom! Over the years, dementia comes more often than wisdom!
 
Second, the east is a delicate matter. And if now the Communist Party of China can restrain the will of the people by force and repressive methods, then as history has shown more than once, the people's patience is not eternal, over the years discontent tends to accumulate, and so on to a critical mass. And then hundreds of millions of people will not be stopped by an army of millions, not by the precepts of Mao ... And yesterday's leaders will be stoned on the squares and roads. Most likely, they (the Communist Party) will not come up with anything better than to distract the people and raise the degree of patriotism with some kind of "small victorious war", For example, for the return of their historical lands ... This may still give 10-20 years of a moderate regime

[The Ghoul]

Your interpretation of those two sentences above as "contradictory" is just indicative of your communist background. You are finding it hard to understand the idiomatic usage of "All voices are allowed space", when talking about Freedom of expression in the context of Democracy as opposed to the controlled flow of information and Party high-handedness in such matters in your communist utopia.

Please elaborate on your logical line of thinking. I don't know how you reasoned from A to B. If you do not have Alzheimer's disease, please edit your words again.

the idiomatic usage.Hearing you say that, I can probably understand your mentality as a far-right stubborn person.Others include: habits, management, tradition, and don’t change are all commonly used words in your mouth.

That rhetoric and whataboutery adds nothing to the debate of Freedom vs Communist Control. Like I said in my previous post, the free people of the world can see through the Chinese agenda of trying to portray their "system" as superior. The world has been through this charade multiple times. Stop jailing your businessmen for "picking quarrels" and maybe we'll talk.

You didn't answer my question.Since you can't answer the above complicated questions, I will ask you some simpler questions.If you propose that your country repair toilets, will it be effective?If you propose to clean up the Ganges river, will this proposal pass?If you propose to increase the punishment for raping women, will this pass?

If not, then maybe the freedom you are talking about is verbal freedom. You have the right to speak, and your government ignore you.

I haven't "corrected" myself. Its just idiomatic usage that I wouldn't expect a CCP puppet to understand. You are forgiven for your ignorance. Lets move on.

Mention idiomatic usage again.Dear members of the extreme right. Do you wash your hands before eating curry every day?

doesn't mean that...，means that....Wow, you tell me that this sentence pattern is not correcting something? I suggest you go to kindergarten again.

I don't know what you mean by "extreme liberalism in your mouth". From my understanding of the playbook of CCP handles like yours, I guess you are trying to strengthen your argument by quoting the constant Conservative vs Liberalism debate of western democracies as some sort of weakness.

Of course you don't understand, you have been brainwashed by Western capitalists.

The country is regarded by you as a passive thing. Its function is the function of the "police" and the function of the "night watchman". In addition to maintaining social order, the country should not control too much.However, the result of this laissez-faire view of the country in practice is that freedom has become the privilege of a few people, and monopolistic organizations have become the masters of society.

No it isn't. Those in power everywhere have always looked for ways to exploit cheap labor enabled by the masses. Capitalism looks for reducing costs and optimizing profitability doesn't mean that the Chinese haven't exploited labor.

Since this is a common problem in various sovereign countries, please do not attack a certain country.You are forgiven for your ignorance. Lets move on.

Duh..Stop comparing intellect dude. Say what you want to say. You aren't convincing anyone on the forum that you aren't a CCP handle or that China's system of control and monitoring is somehow a glowing example for the rest of the world to emulate.

Duh..Stop comparing intellect dude.I did not convince anyone on the forum. Please don't set up a false enemy.You reminded me of taking out a can of washing powder to responsibilities that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction.I understand, the freedom in your mouth means what you want to do, no reason is needed.

[wahyu wida]

USSR dissolved in 70 years, but CCP now marks its tight grip for 72 years. Are we heading to the endgame of CCP? Maybe, because of covid. The problem with communism/socialism is always about the economy where the higher up corrupt as fuck enriching their inner circle, and the ordinary people remain poor (yes, 1st world countries also have corruption problem, BUT it's not as severe as China). Add it with no freedom of speech and stuff, including covid as the accelerant, literally will make suffering to the max.

Humans can break with a particular level of suffering, and once they break, the government will collapse.

The thing is.... the Chinese culture is so disciplined that they will not rise up to stop this. If things like this happened in Western countries, people will rebel against it and they will vote against the ruling party to remove their power, but this is sadly not happening in China. 

Let's not forget that we are dealing with a country with the oldest civilization in the world.... they should be teaching us how to be successful and we should be learning from their mistakes. 

I doubt if the CCP or their economy will collapse or end anytime soon. 

Indeed they had everything to be put in power as well as controlling their economy within their desired standards. Communism in China had raised their country at top position with respect to business, and integrity of their competition along with other countries who developed quality products. Though the underlying issues they're facing right now about the low paying job for their countrymen, leaked but no confirmation yet from their leaders because media can't scrutinize deeply due to no democracy.

[mu_enrico]

“suffering”？If it makes my life better and better, I would rather “suffer”.Not unemployed at home.

Is it? You rather go here?

Even though the crackdowns occur continuously and get severe punishments, it seems that the corruptors are always looking for loopholes to commit corruption.

Do you seriously think Xi Jinping and his inner circle will commit a suicide?

but we can see big countries such as China that carry out a communist system, where equality for the entire population is going well.

Really, how do you know? Based on data given by CCP? There's lack of openness there, garbage in, garbage out.

Communism in China had raised their country at top position with respect to business, and integrity of their competition along with other countries who developed quality products.

Repeat this mantra: "Cheap product from cheap/slave labour." Definitely not quality.

They become a strong country because the government is very serious about eliminating corruption, the death penalty for corruptors certainly makes the government clean And investors are not afraid to invest in China.

Do you seriously think Xi Jinping and his inner circle will commit a suicide? #2

[NeuroticFish]

China is implementing the path of socialism with Chinese characteristics. In China’s eyes, there is actually not such a strong class struggle. China needs to develop, and China will use all methods suitable for China to develop.

~snip~

Interesting theory. Perhaps that could make Chinese's "suffering tolerance" extremely high, thus revolt only happened at the very last.

“suffering”？If it makes my life better and better, I would rather “suffer”.Not unemployed at home.

You tell half-truth here, you conveniently forget people from certain regions and people who don't agree with the views of the party. And that is called shameless propaganda.

...And then you go on Meta and cry about discrimination?!
That's not nice. Not at all...

[The Ghoul]

You tell half-truth here, you conveniently forget people from certain regions and people who don't agree with the views of the party. And that is called shameless propaganda.

...And then you go on Meta and cry about discrimination?!
That's not nice. Not at all...

Is there discrimination in the forum

Sir.I even added a link to this post in the Mate section. I don't think I conceal any facts.

I just want to discuss my topic through this matter.
It's not like getting sympathy. I don't need to do this either.

[amishmanish]

Duh..Stop comparing intellect dude. Say what you want to say. You aren't convincing anyone on the forum that you aren't a CCP handle or that China's system of control and monitoring is somehow a glowing example for the rest of the world to emulate.

Duh..Stop comparing intellect dude.I did not convince anyone on the forum. Please don't set up a false enemy.You reminded me of taking out a can of washing powder to responsibilities that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction.I understand, the freedom in your mouth means what you want to do, no reason is needed.

Your language and comprehension coupled with your over-confidence makes it nearly impossible to have a debate but we try to be as open to ideas on this forum as possible. It seems that you have also gone on to cry about discrimination in Meta, so I'd like to convince you that none of this is about discriminating against you as an individual but about the philosophy you are trying to propagate. You will never convince the free people of the world, much less bitcoiners, that an optimal method of scoial governance needs an over-arching central authority "managing" the best for everyone else.

Your reply to my point about idiomatic usage of "All people are free to vote and express" in context of democracies just shows that your brain is unable to even comprehend democracy. Like i said earlier, lets leave it at that. You have already shown your true colors with expressions like "Stupid people with their stupid votes" etc., so there really is no need to elaborate on that. I will still address your typical CCP tactic of trying to target democracies for their internal problems. You clearly are up to date with your handbook of "talking points" with various nationalities. If its India, talk about Ganges and population and toilets. If its USA, talk about racism and BLM riots and Iraq.

That rhetoric and whataboutery adds nothing to the debate of Freedom vs Communist Control. Like I said in my previous post, the free people of the world can see through the Chinese agenda of trying to portray their "system" as superior. The world has been through this charade multiple times. Stop jailing your businessmen for "picking quarrels" and maybe we'll talk.

You didn't answer my question.Since you can't answer the above complicated questions, I will ask you some simpler questions.If you propose that your country repair toilets, will it be effective?If you propose to clean up the Ganges river, will this proposal pass?If you propose to increase the punishment for raping women, will this pass?

I didn't address your country specific questions because that is really whataboutery (go search what that means), when we were  talking about the preference people have for free societies like democracies rather than controlled, curtailed, image management dependent societies like China or the erstwhile communist countries.

Still, because you insist, you should know that you have heard about above issues because the leadership has actually tried to address them and they are making considerable progress. I said in my very first post that Democracies aren't perfect and there are times when we ourselves jostle with the fact that decision-making can be so cumbersome and implementation can often be so far away from actual plans. Just look at the ongoing twists and turns in the US Senate about the crypto bill. A lot depends on the leadership at various levels and people get to choose depending on their performance. Sure the process can be slow.

This does not mean that China, with its system of suppression and controlled governance is the only country in the world that has progressed. Higher growth and happiness has been seen by several democracies historically. Just because China did well in the last decade is no proof that the system of suppressing free speech and controlling people isn't reprehensible.

People who live in democracies will never like a system in which they are assigned points for their behavior and businessmen are incarcerated for so much as even attempting to criticize the supreme leader or party. That thought is just alien and repugnant to the free mind.

I repeat again, nobody hates the fact that the Chinese people are better off than they were a few decades ago. We just have a certain dislike for propagandists from the Middle Kingdom who have been lately trying pretty hard to convince the rest of the world that they aren't wolves in sheep's clothing.