Six people killed in mass shooting in Plymouth, England

[hilariousandco]

Plymouth shooting: police confirm ‘very young girl’ among five killed by gunman

Man suspected of killing five people, including a child, before turning a gun on himself named as Jake Davison

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2021/aug/13/plymouth-shooting-tributes-victims-gunman-jake-davison-named-latest-updates-news
https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/emergency-services-deployed-at-scene-incident-city-plymouth-england-2021-08-12/

Hadn't seen this posted yet but it's worthy of a discussion I guess. Shootings in the UK are very rare and apparently this is the deadliest in the UK for over a decade. It seems the killer was actually a legal firearms owner which is also rare over here but I think as long as you can get a letter from your doctor to say you're mentally competent you probably can get a license to own one. I wonder if this will change that now? It's being reported that the shooter was part of the incel community.

[suchmoon]

I feel like some reporters are way too quick to default to the easy "explanations", oh look he was a Trump supporter, or he posted on incel sites or whatever. Usually it's far more complicated than that. For someone to kill people, to kill children, the person has to have serious mental issues. We'll have a "nocoiner who sold at $10k" rampage one day and we'll all be implicated once they dig up our Bitcointalk posts deriding that person.

[hilariousandco]

I feel like some reporters are way too quick to default to the easy "explanations", oh look he was a Trump supporter, or he posted on incel sites or whatever. Usually it's far more complicated than that. For someone to kill people, to kill children, the person has to have serious mental issues. We'll have a "nocoiner who sold at $10k" rampage one day and we'll all be implicated once they dig up our Bitcointalk posts deriding that person.

Well, there's usually always some motive for mass killings and it's not just a random act of violence, but most incels will have some mental health issues: anxiety, depression etc which will contribute to their lack of success with the opposite success and it's a vicious cycle from there. From the video I saw I'd say it looks like a textbook case of an incel lashing out at the world.

[virasog]

I feel like some reporters are way too quick to default to the easy "explanations", oh look he was a Trump supporter, or he posted on incel sites or whatever. Usually it's far more complicated than that. For someone to kill people, to kill children, the person has to have serious mental issues. We'll have a "nocoiner who sold at $10k" rampage one day and we'll all be implicated once they dig up our Bitcointalk posts deriding that person.

Well, there's usually always some motive for mass killings and it's not just a random act of violence, but most incels will have some mental health issues: anxiety, depression etc which will contribute to their lack of success with the opposite success and it's a vicious cycle from there. From the video I saw I'd say it looks like a textbook case of an incel lashing out at the world.

I never heard of such mass killing of people in the UK. This indicates that crime rates are increasing in UK too. By staying too long at the home during lockdown and losing jobs etc during the pandemic, more and more people have become depressed and ratio of criminals are increasing in the society.

I will blame government for not providing them proper facilities after the pandemic.

[yhiaali3]

A really unfortunate accident, I don't know how a twenty-year-old would do this horrific crime, I don't know how the killer managed to kill a little girl, I don't think he was conscious he must be suffering from severe mental disorders to be able to do so.
There have been many explanations, including that he was supporting Trump, but the Guardian reported:

Davison had recently posted videos expressing despair about the future and frustrations about failing to lose weight and find a girlfriend.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/12/emergency-services-scene-incident-plymouth-keyham

I don't know if that's really it?! Can one get frustrated to commit a crime and kill Six people?

[franky1]

best guess at the moment was that his mother was the target (incel delusions powered his mind)
and everyone else was just wrong place wrong time/in his way as he went around the neighbourhood

other notable things to mention
he had his gun and licence temporarily removed due to a assault allegation in september2020, and then given back his licence and gun before the end of the same year(facepalm)

its a tragedy for the 5 families that are now suffering due to this nutcase.

[Poker Player]

It seems the killer was actually a legal firearms owner which is also rare over here but I think as long as you can get a letter from your doctor to say you're mentally competent you probably can get a license to own one.

It may be rare compared to the USA, but more than half a million people have a firearm and/or a shotgun certificate in the UK. They do not seem to me to be few.

I wonder if this will change that now?

I wouldn't be surprised if politicians from this were to announce stricter regulation on licensing and gun ownership, but if we think in percentage terms we can say that approximately 0% of legal gun owners use them to mass shoot people. If we think on an annual basis, the percentage is even lower. This year there has been a mass shooting, but last year there was no mass shooting, and the year before there was no mass shooting, etc.

There's always going to be something you can't control. Gun licenses are generally issued for hunting or sporting type. If we think in European terms (although the UK is not in the EU anymore) there are many millions of people who own guns for those reasons and mass shootings are usually 0 per year.

So I wouldn't change anything unless there starts to be more mass shootings, although I don't know what the politicians will do.

[Cnut237]

serious mental issues.

This is at the heart of it, yes. "Incels" may or may not be more likely to engage in violent behaviour, but when it's a sample size of one, we can't really say anything. If the gunman was wearing a blue shirt, it doesn't mean we should fear everyone in blue shirts.

Mental health here in the UK has been underfunded for years, a legacy of successive governments chipping away at provision until the service is not fit for purpose. I don't think this can be ignored in this instance. And the year and a half of lockdowns and social restrictions only exacerbates the situation:

Services are understaffed: Four in ten mental health trusts (41 per cent) have staffing levels well below established benchmarks.
People are not getting the help they need: There is huge variation in the numbers of people accessing crisis care services and one in five people (18 per cent) who came into contact with NHS services in crisis was not assessed at all. Only 14 per cent of people said that, overall, they felt they had all the support they needed when in crisis.
People aren’t assessed quickly enough: Only a third (33 per cent) of respondents who came into contact with NHS services when in crisis were assessed within four hours, as recommended by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE).
Services are not available all the time: One in ten (10 per cent) crisis teams still fails to operate 24-hour, seven-day-a-week services, despite recommendations by NICE.
People cannot contact crisis teams directly: Only half (56 per cent) of crisis teams accept self-referrals from known services users and just one in five (21 per cent) from service users that aren’t already known to them. This is despite NICE guidance that crisis teams should offer self-referral as an alternative to emergency services.
There is a lack of respect and dignity: Less than a third (29 per cent) said they felt all staff treated them with respect and dignity.

_{https://www.mind.org.uk/news-campaigns/news/mental-health-crisis-care-services-under-resourced-understaffed-and-overstretched/}

'Today's new data from the Office for National Statistics, which reveals that depression rates have doubled since the COVID-19 pandemic began, forewarns of a growing mental health crisis in the UK. Particularly concerning is that those in more precarious economic positions or burdened by existing inequalities – young people, women, clinically vulnerable adults, disabled people and those living in the most deprived areas of England – have been disproportionately affected. This suggests that inequalities in our society have worsened as a result of the pandemic. Despite increasing rates of depression, diagnoses by GPs fell by almost a quarter, suggesting access to mental health care is in decline. Our COVID-19 impact inquiry has found that reduced access to care will have long-term implications on mental health and put even greater pressure on health services.

'These worrying findings show how important it is for government to rapidly address the vast consequences of the pandemic, to protect the long-term impacts on the nation's health.'

_{https://www.health.org.uk/news-and-comment/news/latest-data-highlights-a-growing-mental-health-crisis-in-the-uk}

[Poker Player]

-snip

Hey Cnut237, do you realize how our preconceptions make us filter the facts? Faced with this mass shooting fact, my response has been "no, we don't need more regulations." and your response has been "we need more public funding."

Who would have thought it, lol.

[Ultegra134]

I feel like some reporters are way too quick to default to the easy "explanations", oh look he was a Trump supporter, or he posted on incel sites or whatever. Usually it's far more complicated than that. For someone to kill people, to kill children, the person has to have serious mental issues. We'll have a "nocoiner who sold at $10k" rampage one day and we'll all be implicated once they dig up our Bitcointalk posts deriding that person.

Well, there's usually always some motive for mass killings and it's not just a random act of violence, but most incels will have some mental health issues: anxiety, depression etc which will contribute to their lack of success with the opposite success and it's a vicious cycle from there. From the video I saw I'd say it looks like a textbook case of an incel lashing out at the world.

Before finishing reading the title, I was almost certain that this would have taken place in the USA, but nope, it's in the UK. Doesn't UK have strict gun laws? I've never heard of such an incident before. We can't really be sure of his motives, however, it's often mental illness and often is racism fueled or had personal differences.

No matter what, these are 5 lives that are now gone, he should be at least prosecuted and sentenced to life imprisonment.

[hilariousandco]

No matter what, these are 5 lives that are now gone, he should be at least prosecuted and sentenced to life imprisonment.

He's dead. He shot himself before the police turned up.

[Ultegra134]

No matter what, these are 5 lives that are now gone, he should be at least prosecuted and sentenced to life imprisonment.

He's dead. He shot himself before the police turned up.

Oh, didn't notice that the article mentioned "Including the suspect". His kills are extremely frustrating, which even included a 3-year-old girl, two dog walkers, it just looks like he went on killing people with no ordinary motive, just his messed up mental health.

Edit: I'm now reading on CNN that his first victim was his own 51-year-old mother, then proceeded outside killing a father with his 3-year-old daughter. Its super messed up, and unfortunately, he even committed suicide, which makes it way harder to find an answer on why this happened.

[Cnut237]

-snip

Hey Cnut237, do you realize how our preconceptions make us filter the facts? Faced with this mass shooting fact, my response has been "no, we don't need more regulations." and your response has been "we need more public funding."

Who would have thought it, lol.

Yes, I noticed that.

Health provision in the UK is publicly funded*. We need better mental health provision. So we need more public funding. It doesn't necessarily have to be new money, just redirecting some of the £205 billion they use for spending on phallic metaphors might be a good start.

And more stringent rules on gun ownership (such as, no-one is allowed to own a gun), might also be a sensible idea. There is no need for anyone in the UK to own a gun. We don't have dangerous wildlife, no bears or hippos etc. You don't need an AK-47 to fend off a disgruntled pigeon.


*yes, by the taxpayer.

[franky1]

yep the UK health service is under funded. just look at the under-inflation pay rise they offered healthcare workers, straight after the healthcare workers worked til breaking point last year.

it doesnt require regulation. as thats just more paper pushing officemen. we have too much office men. if anything it needs more funding to pay for the front line services.

the government relies too much on charities to fill the buffer that public services cant afford.
infact when a charity fills a buffer the government reduces the public funding for the proper service even more.

they wont pay for more psychologists or even to train people to be them, because they see the samaritans helpline fills the hole.(facepalm)
yet samaritans from many public reviews is less about psychologically helping people and more about christian recruitment under the pretense of helping vulnerable people.

..
although mass shootings are rare, and this event was a 'mass shooting' of 5. in the US mass shootings are usually dozens+ and happen more often.
in america if 5 people died by gunshot. it wont even hit the headlines as its 'another neighbourhood shooting' or just put down to some gang scuffle or domestic family issue.

when it happens in the UK even just 5, it becomes a big deal because its so rare, so england has got a few things better than america.
however with that said. any death via murder is a death too many. there is no way to completely make murder obsolete. but atleast the UK is many steps ahead than america in having it happen soo rarely

[Poker Player]

And more stringent rules on gun ownership (such as, no-one is allowed to own a gun), might also be a sensible idea.

I am not surprised that you say that because the left usually offers supposed solutions to problems by prohibiting and forcing. In this case it would be to prohibit everyone from owning guns.

I have searched on the subject because although I don't like over-regulation in principle, if I saw that banning guns would lead to 0 murders, I would support a total ban. But searching I find a variety of events that don't give such an easy result as I ban guns = gun murders end.

Japan would be a place where guns are banned and they have no murders but it comes from the context of losing WW2 when they thought they were God's country, the shock of losing the war and the change in mentality it brought about. In Australia they banned guns and it seems to have worked. But for example, in Venezuela they banned guns 10 years ago and it is one of the countries with more gun murders in the world, in Colombia something similar happes and then you have Switzerland which is a pacifist country with a heavily armed population.

So, again, this is not a black and white issue where it is guaranteed that if you ban gun ownership you are going to get rid of shootings.

There is no need for anyone in the UK to own a gun.

There is also no need to wear earrings or get tattoos and we are not going to ban them, right? I can give you countless examples of things that are not necessary and no one would think of banning them.

We don't have dangerous wildlife, no bears or hippos etc. You don't need an AK-47 to fend off a disgruntled pigeon.

I understand that this is hyperbole because you must be crazy in the UK if you license AK-47s to kill birds.

By banning gun ownership you would be punishing 600,000 people for what a madman has done.

[Philipma1957cellphone]

-snip

Hey Cnut237, do you realize how our preconceptions make us filter the facts? Faced with this mass shooting fact, my response has been "no, we don't need more regulations." and your response has been "we need more public funding."

Who would have thought it, lol.

Yes, I noticed that.

Health provision in the UK is publicly funded*. We need better mental health provision. So we need more public funding. It doesn't necessarily have to be new money, just redirecting some of the £205 billion they use for spending on phallic metaphors might be a good start.

And more stringent rules on gun ownership (such as, no-one is allowed to own a gun), might also be a sensible idea. There is no need for anyone in the UK to own a gun. We don't have dangerous wildlife, no bears or hippos etc. You don't need an AK-47 to fend off a disgruntled pigeon.


*yes, by the taxpayer.

You were doing  pretty good with the mental health funding.

But you lost me with the l such as no-one  is allowed to own a gun) proposition.

So no-one as in cops and military with out guns.

So I don't think you meant that.

You meant no civilians correct ?

[suchmoon]

There is also no need to wear earrings or get tattoos and we are not going to ban them, right? I can give you countless examples of things that are not necessary and no one would think of banning them.

This might have something to do with earrings not being used as weapons in mass killings.

[Cnut237]

You were doing  pretty good with the mental health funding.

But you lost me with the l such as no-one  is allowed to own a gun) proposition.

So no-one as in cops and military with out guns.

So I don't think you meant that.

You meant no civilians correct ?

It was just a general suggestion as to something that might be considered, rather than a fully thought-out recommendation. And yes, I meant civilians.
As an aside, the majority of police in this country do not carry guns anyway, but I can appreciate there are situations when it might be required. Same for military.

[B1tUnl0ck3r]

we don't give a fuck.

[Cnut237]

~

I read your post, and my eyes went straight to your signature. Surprise, surprise... an anti-vaxxer.