How weird is it to borrow money and invest into Bitcoin?

[Polkeins]

People have been living in debt for thousands of years, the oldest bank in Italy seems to be about 800 years old.
 There is nothing wrong with the loans themselves. It is only important to be able to properly manage money.
In this case, it should be understood that in fact in the crypto you are not trading/ This is gambling. Therefore, the risks must also be calculated like in the casino.

But in general, it seems more logical to buy equipment(GPU maybe) and mining ETH or other coins, at least you can return some money in the future.
If you're newbie in trading and if you're going to trade altcoins, you should know that you can easily lose up to 99 percent of the deposit in a couple of transactions.

Who remembers the substratum knows what is that about.

We are not talking about shitcoins in this thread.  Maybe refocus your answer/response in terms of discussion of bitcoin so at least you are talking about the correct underlying asset instead of getting distracted into off-topicness...

Otherwise, your first paragraph in which you assert that proper money management is the key to considering the whole matter... and yeah, hopefully we would not be using a loan to gamble but instead to invest - and sometimes the line between what is investing and what is gambling is not exactly clear and it depends upon the approach of the person getting the loan in terms of how to manage the funds... including how to calculate the risks and to account for both the upside and downside scenarios.. even extreme variations of each.. and at the same time having a plan for any of those scenarios including considering if it would be worth it to get the loan and to take those various risks that go beyond merely investing without such a loan.

Yes, here I probably got distracted by GPU mining when I mentioned altcoins, but this happened because I think that this is the simplest and most logical step for a beginner, in case if you will fail in mining you can be sold equipment or used it.
Bitcoin mining equipment costs much more than GPU equipment and it will be much more difficult to sell it if a bear market comes.
And so in fact, except for bitcoin (well, maybe ETH), all other assets have a negative correlation in the long term.
They may grow for a while, but over time, other, "new" altcoins come in their place. In fact, there is no market without bitcoin, and if we already consider some asset for long-term investment, including using credit funds, then this is bitcoin.

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[milewilda]

Bitcoin price is increasing so fast such that some people wish they borrowed and bought bitcoin at 29k some weeks ago

Weird if we borrow money nowadays to invest in Bitcoin, if you say in 2018 or 2019, it makes sense to me with a loan in 1-2 years time, currently borrowing money and buying Bitcoin is the same as killing yourself, there is but if the one who borrows money makes futures trading, it enters my mind.

Getting up some loan wont really be always bad because there are really times that we are out of cash and we do able to see some opportunity for us need to dive in immediately which would might result into something like this kind of decision.Majority of us would be saying it is risky.Yes, it is risky but if you do know that you could get something or benefit into it then you wouldnt really be having any regrets towards your decision and as long you  do know that you could repay those loans or borrowed money in time without relying into your investment then it would be good but if not
then dont mind off about getting one because you would really be just putting yourself into trouble.

[SirLancelot]

Borrowing money to invest is very risky. The price of Bitcoin is volatile and difficult to predict. When market prices change, it is easy to be affected by market sentiment and make wrong decisions that lead to losses.
Without familiarity with crypto knowledge and trading strategies, it is difficult to guarantee a consistent profit in the crypto market.

Difficult to predict accurately but we can do something to at least have a close prediction. We can borrow money when we think the market is going in the right direction but emotion is also important, we need to practice controlling our emotions first so that we cant get distracted by the news and FUDs that we hear towards this market.

Selling little by little and not aiming for a long term can be a good thing to do when we have loans to pay because the money is already in our hands, it can never be stolen to us by market volatility. We are more confident this way that we can pay our loan. After successfully paying, that's the time we can do riskier strategies.

[JayJuanGee]

People have been living in debt for thousands of years, the oldest bank in Italy seems to be about 800 years old.
 There is nothing wrong with the loans themselves. It is only important to be able to properly manage money.
In this case, it should be understood that in fact in the crypto you are not trading/ This is gambling. Therefore, the risks must also be calculated like in the casino.

But in general, it seems more logical to buy equipment(GPU maybe) and mining ETH or other coins, at least you can return some money in the future.
If you're newbie in trading and if you're going to trade altcoins, you should know that you can easily lose up to 99 percent of the deposit in a couple of transactions.

Who remembers the substratum knows what is that about.

We are not talking about shitcoins in this thread.  Maybe refocus your answer/response in terms of discussion of bitcoin so at least you are talking about the correct underlying asset instead of getting distracted into off-topicness...

Otherwise, your first paragraph in which you assert that proper money management is the key to considering the whole matter... and yeah, hopefully we would not be using a loan to gamble but instead to invest - and sometimes the line between what is investing and what is gambling is not exactly clear and it depends upon the approach of the person getting the loan in terms of how to manage the funds... including how to calculate the risks and to account for both the upside and downside scenarios.. even extreme variations of each.. and at the same time having a plan for any of those scenarios including considering if it would be worth it to get the loan and to take those various risks that go beyond merely investing without such a loan.

Yes, here I probably got distracted by GPU mining when I mentioned altcoins, but this happened because I think that this is the simplest and most logical step for a beginner, in case if you will fail in mining you can be sold equipment or used it.
Bitcoin mining equipment costs much more than GPU equipment and it will be much more difficult to sell it if a bear market comes.
And so in fact, except for bitcoin (well, maybe ETH), all other assets have a negative correlation in the long term.
They may grow for a while, but over time, other, "new" altcoins come in their place. In fact, there is no market without bitcoin, and if we already consider some asset for long-term investment, including using credit funds, then this is bitcoin.

I do appreciate you further explaining what you were getting at, and surely there is a valid point that if you are attempting to invest into a business with your loan, then there are a variety of ways to end up with some kinds of tangible assets that would protect you somewhat with the downside. 

Maybe we can agree to disagree because even though I concede that you are making some valid points, it still seems that you are overly complicating the more strict considerations that was presented by OP - in terms of using a loan to invest into bitcoin... which seems to be a both a valid question.. and also one in which any person can validly attempt to protect themselves against a wide variety of scenarios.... your set of scenarios does attempt to add additional protections, but it also adds more costs and more complications and even presumes that there is something lacking in investing in the anticipated price performance of bitcoin itself.

Furthermore, the fact that you are conceding that bitcoin is quite a capital intensive venture - in terms of mining - leads you to make further stretches involving GPU mining and including that bitcoin cannot be GPU mined, so in that regard, there is a kind of assumption that mining a shitcoin (and sure maybe you can revolve between shitcoins) is some how some kind of a prudent investment because it relates to bitcoin. .in the sense that it depends on bitcoin's success to be successful.. and if you really think through what you are proposing, you will likely appreciate that you are just adding additional layers of risk.. rather than really resolving anything by then proclaiming that you will end up with otherwise potentially valuable equipment that goes beyond door-stop status.,,

From my perspective, going on about this angle just seems to devolving too much away from this particular topic.. even though tangentially it can be described as related..

[Polkeins]

People have been living in debt for thousands of years, the oldest bank in Italy seems to be about 800 years old.
 There is nothing wrong with the loans themselves. It is only important to be able to properly manage money.
In this case, it should be understood that in fact in the crypto you are not trading/ This is gambling. Therefore, the risks must also be calculated like in the casino.

But in general, it seems more logical to buy equipment(GPU maybe) and mining ETH or other coins, at least you can return some money in the future.
If you're newbie in trading and if you're going to trade altcoins, you should know that you can easily lose up to 99 percent of the deposit in a couple of transactions.

Who remembers the substratum knows what is that about.

We are not talking about shitcoins in this thread.  Maybe refocus your answer/response in terms of discussion of bitcoin so at least you are talking about the correct underlying asset instead of getting distracted into off-topicness...

Otherwise, your first paragraph in which you assert that proper money management is the key to considering the whole matter... and yeah, hopefully we would not be using a loan to gamble but instead to invest - and sometimes the line between what is investing and what is gambling is not exactly clear and it depends upon the approach of the person getting the loan in terms of how to manage the funds... including how to calculate the risks and to account for both the upside and downside scenarios.. even extreme variations of each.. and at the same time having a plan for any of those scenarios including considering if it would be worth it to get the loan and to take those various risks that go beyond merely investing without such a loan.

Yes, here I probably got distracted by GPU mining when I mentioned altcoins, but this happened because I think that this is the simplest and most logical step for a beginner, in case if you will fail in mining you can be sold equipment or used it.
Bitcoin mining equipment costs much more than GPU equipment and it will be much more difficult to sell it if a bear market comes.
And so in fact, except for bitcoin (well, maybe ETH), all other assets have a negative correlation in the long term.
They may grow for a while, but over time, other, "new" altcoins come in their place. In fact, there is no market without bitcoin, and if we already consider some asset for long-term investment, including using credit funds, then this is bitcoin.

I do appreciate you further explaining what you were getting at, and surely there is a valid point that if you are attempting to invest into a business with your loan, then there are a variety of ways to end up with some kinds of tangible assets that would protect you somewhat with the downside. 

Maybe we can agree to disagree because even though I concede that you are making some valid points, it still seems that you are overly complicating the more strict considerations that was presented by OP - in terms of using a loan to invest into bitcoin... which seems to be a both a valid question.. and also one in which any person can validly attempt to protect themselves against a wide variety of scenarios.... your set of scenarios does attempt to add additional protections, but it also adds more costs and more complications and even presumes that there is something lacking in investing in the anticipated price performance of bitcoin itself.

Furthermore, the fact that you are conceding that bitcoin is quite a capital intensive venture - in terms of mining - leads you to make further stretches involving GPU mining and including that bitcoin cannot be GPU mined, so in that regard, there is a kind of assumption that mining a shitcoin (and sure maybe you can revolve between shitcoins) is some how some kind of a prudent investment because it relates to bitcoin. .in the sense that it depends on bitcoin's success to be successful.. and if you really think through what you are proposing, you will likely appreciate that you are just adding additional layers of risk.. rather than really resolving anything by then proclaiming that you will end up with otherwise potentially valuable equipment that goes beyond door-stop status.,,

From my perspective, going on about this angle just seems to devolving too much away from this particular topic.. even though tangentially it can be described as related..

Yes, I probably deviated a little from the topic when I started writing about mining.
But this was done rather with the hope that before borrowing, a person will study the crypt better, at least understand the basic principles.
If you look at the question of borrowing to buy BTC or not,  the key to answer for that question - at what interest will borrowed?
If inflation is above interest on the loan, then the move is risky, but logical.
If the loan interest is much higher than inflation, then you should take it with caution.
In any case, it is better to do a study for yourself at what stage of the market we are (bulls or bears) and what to do if the bear market comes suddenly and for a long time?
How you will repay the loan in that case?

It is clear that when everything grows, as in a good bull market, it is much easier to pay interest and debt.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

Yes, I probably deviated a little from the topic when I started writing about mining.
But this was done rather with the hope that before borrowing, a person will study the crypt better, at least understand the basic principles.

I feel like I am repeating myself quite a lot.. but I will try one more time.


Studying mining or business opportunities in bitcoin or anything like that is not necessary in order to attempt to assess whether taking a loan might be beneficial or not.

Surely, there is likely a difference between someone who has no clues about bitcoin, and has not even bought any bitcoin to be then considering to add leverage (such as a loan) versus someone who may have already been into bitcoin for a while and established a decent sized holding of bitcoin.

The same is true if someone has already established several investments outside of bitcoin, such as a house, a 401k, and some other investments, versus someone starting from scratch in bitcoin.  Having already existing assets allows the drawing from various assets and the moving around of risk.

Also, having various cashflow levels can make a difference as well, and having an already strong and consistent cashflow can help to make it easier to justify getting a loan.. but still might not justify getting the loan in and of itself....  

So there are a lot of ways that finances can be organize and assure for paying the loan back without even having to consider entering into any kind of extra business such as bitcoin mining or even having to weight the additional plusses and minuses of mining bitcoin, even if you personally believe that is the way to go, your own narrow focus on that angle might show that you either do not adequately understand other ways of thinking about ways that loans can be profitable without having to have that extra layer of complexity that you consider to have more positives than negatives.  By the way, think about it.. you have an interest in mining and you might even have technical interests and even business oriented interests.  Not everyone shares those kinds of interests but they are not necessarily going to be disadvantaged in terms of still getting into a loan if it might otherwise be something that they believe works for their own personal situation - considering cashflow, other assets investments and skills - amongst other possible considerations that they might believe to be helpful to them.

If you look at the question of borrowing to buy BTC or not,  the key to answer for that question - at what interest will borrowed?

Yes.. that is one of the considerations.

If inflation is above interest on the loan, then the move is risky, but logical.
If the loan interest is much higher than inflation, then you should take it with caution.
In any case, it is better to do a study for yourself at what stage of the market we are (bulls or bears) and what to do if the bear market comes suddenly and for a long time?
How you will repay the loan in that case?

yes.. all of those are important considerations..

It is clear that when everything grows, as in a good bull market, it is much easier to pay interest and debt.

Yes, a bull market cannot be presumed, even though it would be better to consider that the odds are higher to have price appreciation rather than not.

I already mentioned the example of getting a two-year loan with a 6% interests, so if the BTC are bought at $39k with such loan, then at the end of the loan period, the BTC should need to be worth at least $44.5k just to break even.... so yes, the loan could end up being profitable or not by that time.. and there need not be a guarantee in order to still justify taking the loan, but the break even price should be considered as part of the calculation whether or not to get the loan.

[Quidat]

If you're newbie in trading and if you're going to trade altcoins, you should know that you can easily lose up to 99 percent of the deposit in a couple of transactions.

If you are newbie then be careful with your money and invest it wisely. Majority of new investors end up losing there money whether it's altcoins or btc. So idea of taking loan and investing in crypto is strictly not recommended for newbies.
The loan you take must be paid back on agreed time otherwise interest will keep piling and there are bear seasons in crypto market that can last for months or years. So you need to keep this thing in mind while you think of taking loan and investing in crypto.

Taking a loan should really be your last resort if you do see some opportunity to invest but if not or do make out those impulsive kind of action just because you've
been hyped by other people then it would be really a suicide kind of decision on which you would really be thinking that it could really make out some decent returns
or thinking that there would be some assurance that you could repay those loans out of those profits which is really very wrong.

[Captain Corporate]

 I do not know who and how made people think that debt is something bad, but that caused a whole generation to be both in debt, and also not have good investments.

Debt is not a bad thing, not inheritly. There are bad debts and there good debts and you need to figure out which one you are on the side of. If you take out a mortgage to buy a house, pay about 1.5k monthly on the mortgage and make 3k on the rent, while the price rises %1 above inflation a year, that is a good debt to have. If you take out a loan, or just use a credit card to buy the new iphone, that is a bad debt.

 Know the difference between the two and you will be doing fine. For example many credit card companies will give you low rates, definitely low if you have used it long enough and have a good credit with them. You could always use that to purchase something that will make you enough profit. Or taking out a loan that you could pay even without the asset. Assuming you have 500 bucks saved aside every month, it is smarter to lock that down for the next few years and get couple grand right now, because that way you will be paying interest, but you will also accumulate profit as well.

 If you know the difference between bad debt and good debt, and if you take out a debt based on that, then as long as its a good one, you will be fine.

[shawon01]

You can be successful when you borrow money and invest in crypto and you can fail too. The most important thing is being able to know when to enter the market. If you enter the market at high you may lose but if you enter at low you will gain. For anyone to take such risk you must have much knowledge of the market

All you have to do for the business is to invest in the Kyoto currency. There is always a big risk here and the key to every investment is acting and experience so I think you need to have experience to chat  If not, you will not gain anything but will always lose

[fuguebtc]

Borrowing money to invest is very risky. The price of Bitcoin is volatile and difficult to predict. When market prices change, it is easy to be affected by market sentiment and make wrong decisions that lead to losses.
Without familiarity with crypto knowledge and trading strategies, it is difficult to guarantee a consistent profit in the crypto market.

Difficult to predict accurately but we can do something to at least have a close prediction. We can borrow money when we think the market is going in the right direction but emotion is also important, we need to practice controlling our emotions first so that we cant get distracted by the news and FUDs that we hear towards this market.

Selling little by little and not aiming for a long term can be a good thing to do when we have loans to pay because the money is already in our hands, it can never be stolen to us by market volatility. We are more confident this way that we can pay our loan. After successfully paying, that's the time we can do riskier strategies.

We can rely on technical analysis, fundamental analysis to predict the trend of the market. But the market is always full of surprises, bitcoin price can reverse at any time just because of some news. So that sometimes make our judgments wrong.
Crypto is not like other markets, they can increase 100%, 200% in a few hours but can also drop 500% in 1 hour, it contains too much risk when investing with borrowed money. Borrowing money to invest is really risky, I think this is not recommended.

[smartaction]

Borrowing is to risky. If you want to make that profit every day for your daily expenses then you can easily choice Spot trading  you can buy bitcoin and sell it when you get some profit. Our daily expenses are not too high. We spend a maximum of  $10 per day. In this case if you have $200 then you can easily collect your daily expenses from spot trading. so, Don't use borrowing as Future  or Margin trading. It will take away everything you have at some point

[livingfree]

All you have to do for the business is to invest in the Kyoto currency. There is always a big risk here and the key to every investment is acting and experience so I think you need to have experience to chat  If not, you will not gain anything but will always lose

What type of investment is that Kyoto?

It is new to hear that there is such type of investment in existence.

The risk that you are telling if it is about that currency is certainly big. Because a person like me who is unfamiliar on it is likely gambling my money.

[ScamViruS]

All you have to do for the business is to invest in the Kyoto currency. There is always a big risk here and the key to every investment is acting and experience so I think you need to have experience to chat  If not, you will not gain anything but will always lose

I first heard the name of something like this. I did not know any information about this currency but after you said that I found this information by searching on Google. Are you talking about this? Why do you think you can invest in this currency? Can you discuss in detail the reasons behind this?

Source: https://www.insidekyoto.com/getting-money-in-kyoto

[Flexystar]

I think it’s risky but with proper maths we can do miracles in the world of borrowing money. I mean just imagine if we borrow money with low interest rates and buy crypto in the current event when prices are dipping very low. We wait for few months and let’s assume that crypto just break the resistance and go nuts with its ATH rate. Imagine this could pay off the debts plus interest for that much period of time. However, though it looks very simple, it could be disastrous if dip is going to last for very long time. I mean over build up of interest rate can be a problem.

[kamilah147]

to me borrowing for investment purposes is a bad idea. this is very risky for us traders, you don't have enough capital to trade but doing this loan the risk is doubled. anyone who is and is close to me and in this thread for those reading I don't recommend doing that.

[Viscore]

to me borrowing for investment purposes is a bad idea. this is very risky for us traders, you don't have enough capital to trade but doing this loan the risk is doubled. anyone who is and is close to me and in this thread for those reading I don't recommend doing that.

Its true. When you want to invest anything go with the amount that you can afford to lose. Dont ever try to go in debt just to invest on a speculative asset like bitcoin.With bitcoin, you can make a fortune, but you may lose a fortune. Theres nothing magical in bitcoin, it can go up  and it can go down. Investing carries risk and bitcoin carry enormous risk. So if you cant afford the money that you put in, then do not invest in it.

[monineklutak]

to me borrowing for investment purposes is a bad idea. this is very risky for us traders, you don't have enough capital to trade but doing this loan the risk is doubled. anyone who is and is close to me and in this thread for those reading I don't recommend doing that.

Its true. When you want to invest anything go with the amount that you can afford to lose. Dont ever try to go in debt just to invest on a speculative asset like bitcoin.With bitcoin, you can make a fortune, but you may lose a fortune. Theres nothing magical in bitcoin, it can go up  and it can go down. Investing carries risk and bitcoin carry enormous risk. So if you cant afford the money that you put in, then do not invest in it.

Yes borrowing money to invest in crypto especially Bitcoin is not a good idea and will only add to the existing risk,
better use cold money and i think that is the best option,
if you don't have capital, it's better to hold on to start investing and most importantly as much as possible to minimize risk

[JayJuanGee]

You can be successful when you borrow money and invest in crypto and you can fail too. The most important thing is being able to know when to enter the market. If you enter the market at high you may lose but if you enter at low you will gain. For anyone to take such risk you must have much knowledge of the market

All you have to do for the business is to invest in the Kyoto currency. There is always a big risk here and the key to every investment is acting and experience so I think you need to have experience to chat  If not, you will not gain anything but will always lose

Fuck crypto.. we are not talking about that topic in this thread... whatever you might mean by use of such term?

Crypto is not like other markets, they can increase 100%, 200% in a few hours but can also drop 500% in 1 hour, it contains too much risk when investing with borrowed money.

You mentioned bitcoin earlier in your response, and then you changed to some dumbass amorphous term "crypto"  whatever that means?... we are not talking about that, here.

Borrowing is to risky. If you want to make that profit every day for your daily expenses then you can easily choice Spot trading  you can buy bitcoin and sell it when you get some profit. Our daily expenses are not too high. We spend a maximum of  $10 per day. In this case if you have $200 then you can easily collect your daily expenses from spot trading. so, Don't use borrowing as Future  or Margin trading. It will take away everything you have at some point

Sure.  Trading is another way to attempt to make profits in bitcoin, but OP did not mention trading.. seems like trading entails different kinds of skills that likely are not the same skills as to making an assessment if taking out a loan (or using debt) might work to your advantage in terms of investing into bitcoin.

I think it’s risky but with proper maths we can do miracles in the world of borrowing money. I mean just imagine if we borrow money with low interest rates and buy crypto in the current event when prices are dipping very low. We wait for few months and let’s assume that crypto just break the resistance and go nuts with its ATH rate. Imagine this could pay off the debts plus interest for that much period of time. However, though it looks very simple, it could be disastrous if dip is going to last for very long time. I mean over build up of interest rate can be a problem.

If you are talking about bitcoin, then why don't you use that term rather than turning it into "crypto?"

You know what?  The OP did not mention "crypto"... he mentioned bitcoin..

I would not want to put words in your mouth, but would your answer be the same if we were to substitute "bitcoin" for those two spots where you mentioned "crypto" or were you talking about something other than bitcoin?

[vd309]

Isn't borrowing for investment in Bitcoin essentially betting on price will go up from the current point and hope to cover the loan + interest. Also, I don't know who will give suck loan without other collateral.

[rojan]

There is no point in borrowing money to invest in a value asset that performs your investment regardless of whether you make a profit or not.  It is better to get up and invest your money without borrowing. Never act in such a way that you lose everything. Before you do any work, think carefully and if you invest, do what you have. Never borrow and invest.