iv4n: Looking for feedback - should the negative tag remain?

[JollyGood]

I see there is a small commotion taking place in a very serious thread which has been created to kindly ask all forum members promoting the 1xbit scammers to refrain from doing so because the list of victims or alleged victims continues to grow. That thread was created to kindly ask promoters of the 1xbit scammers to kindly stop promoting a known scam: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5347222.0

Unfortunately the essence of that very serious and important thread has been diverted by some forum members posting their views about the tag related to iv4n therefore I have created this thread to allow anybody wishing to have their say to have it here and leave that thread for the purpose it was created for - to persuade promoters of the 1xbit scammers to kindly stop.

If memory servers correct, so far I have gone through the first 2 pages of that thread (there are 12 pages in total for their so-called Honest Review thread) and tagged the accounts that I thought deserved it based on what they wrote. When I have time I will go through the other 10 pages and tag if necessary. If there were really honest reviews they would most probably be spotted and those that had a specific agenda of trying to get up to $30 for the so-called honest review by being biased with their review, well they would be spotted too and then appropriately tagged.

I was fairly busy tagging away the past couple of days (1xbit related and others) and received some PMs from members asking to have their tags removed and iv4n has been asking to have his tag removed too. After reviewing the original post a few minutes (https://archive.is/Ii3g6) I am on the verge of changing the tag to neutral but asking members for feedback.

Here is the post in question:

Interesting site 1xbit! I never played there, and I am not sure should I start now... Too many unsolved accusations on your account, of course!

But I like easy registration, and I like the list of the coins you accept! Amazing! Also, the list of available games is awesome, I am looking around the site and to be honest I like what I see! I am tempted to deposit some amount and test you... but maybe I will get $30 for this "the-first-look-review"?!

Here is my 1xbit deposit address: bc1qxepaj5xp7klsv797ndgm2xgs98er9ydj0rt625

If I get the coins I will play and I will be able to say something more about 1xbit casino! Cheers!

Granted I do not know iv4n and I have not interacted with him so cannot understand how he might express himself but to me parts of that post show a degree of desperation to get his $30, whereas he should have known better.

In your opinion should the negative tag remain or should I replace it with a neutral?

[1714713030]

1714713030

[1714713030]

1714713030

[yahoo62278]

he should have known better.

In your opinion should the negative tag remain or should I replace it with a neutral?

Iv4n just messaged me and what I bolded here is exactly what I told him. Even though he should have known better, I think it's a bit harsh for a neg tag. Give everyone in that review thread a neutral IMO as all that really happened was those that were paid hurt the scam sites pocket. Noone pays attention to those reviews, least I wouldn't think so.

It's your decision but I personally think a neutral is fine.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Noone pays attention to those reviews, least I wouldn't think so.

I don't know about that, I really don't.  I'm pretty sure a thread like the one OP linked to wouldn't show up on any Google result (at least not in the first few pages), there is a non-negligible chance that someone could find it and base their decision to visit 1xbit and deposit money there on it. 

I also think a negative trust is a bit harsh.  I have mixed feelings about tagging 1xbit campaign participants and won't do it personally, much less tagging someone voicing his opinion on that casino in a thread that asks for opinions.  That's being overzealous IMO....but JollyGood, I'll tell you: I won't complain for a minute if you keep the tag in place, because his idiotic opinion and that begging for bitcoin deem him a complete parasite in my eyes, and it'd be better if that negative trust inhibited him from joining sig campaigns/bounties in the future.

The trust system is yet again being used to control the shitposter/moron problem, just like it was prior to 2018.  I don't know if the merit system has lost effectiveness or what, but if it's not keeping the problem in check then I think we need a better solution than tagging members like this.  Anyway, I'm fine if you don't remove that feedback, JollyGood.

[borovichok]

To be honest, no one deserves a red tag for a personal review, promoters and people giving out personal reviews are two different things. If I play on the site and am able to withdraw, I can boldly come out and give my honest opinion without minding the scam accusations against them, but does that mean I should be red tagged for telling my experience on the site? No, I don't believe so.

If you prefer to tag people for offering honest ratings, you may start here. These users were also paid for their honest reviews, so why is iv4n claiming sole responsibility?

Code:

notblox1
woodie
iv4n
slow death
direwolfm14
text
stadus
robelneo
yayayo
worldofcoins
bitbollo
ebede
bitcoinaccepted

theymos needs to explain why DT was implemented it's becoming a weapon tbh.

[Csmiami]

I don't really see the point of creating a thread to repeat what has already been said... Just in case I'll copy-quote my reply over there:

---

I have to say I'm with you on this one, Ivan.

For starters, giving a negative in September for something that happened in May... it's a bit off from my personal point of view.

To continue, the thread the comment was made into was a Review thread. Reviews can be both good and bad, and since no review was actually made in the end, the whole information from the tag is off. A little bit above Ivans' post, we can also see examplens making this exact point:

I RECOMMEND NOBODY TO JOIN HERE
PEOPLE WHO WANT TO JOIN THE CAMPAIGN WILL BE NEGATIVE TAGGED BY DT MEMBERS PROBABLY
STAY WAY FROM THIS SCAM ORGANISATION

I don't think so. He wants to pay for a review here on the Bitcointalk forum, why not? If someone makes an honest negative review, you think he should be negative trust punished by DT members?
He said honest review, not shill. I guess they will pay for this job, even if the review does not present them with a positive feeling.

As a side note, I don't think this is a right use of the trust system. I see a distrust on your personal trust list more fitting for this situation, but that may just be my own personal observation.

TLDR; there was no review (negative or positive) so this is just a wild goose chase

[DaveF]

I think it should be changed to neutral.

I know I have gone on this rant before but I'll do it again briefly here.
On this forum as of now there is no differentiation between 'trading feedback' and 'general feedback'
So, when you leave a negative or positive for anyone who you have not traded with or know actively how they trade it distorts it.

Looking at his feedback iv4n has promoted many questionable things over the years, so if we had 'general feedback' that would be a good place for a negative.
But we don't, we only have the 1 feedback. And it is supposed to be for TRADING. Does not matter what else they say or do.

If you don't like it, talk to the boss:

LoyceV's guide seems reasonable.

The system is for handling trade risk, not for flagging people for good/bad posts/personalities/ideas.

...

Ratings

 - Leave positive ratings if you actively think that trading with this person is safer than with a random person.
 - Leave negative ratings if you actively think that trading with the person is less safe than with a random person.
 - Unstable behavior could very occasionally be an acceptable reason for leaving negative trust, but if it looks like you're leaving negative trust due to personal disagreements, then that's inappropriate. Ratings are not for popularity contests, virtue signalling, punishing people for your idea of wrongthink, etc.
 - Post-flags, ratings have less impact. It's only an orange number. Some amount of "leave ratings first, ask questions later" may be OK. For example, if you thought that YoBit was a serious ongoing scam, the promotion of which was extremely problematic, then it'd be a sane use of the system to immediately leave negative trust for everyone wearing a YoBit signature. (I don't necessarily endorse this viewpoint or this action: various parts of the issue are highly subjective. But while I wouldn't blame people for excluding someone who did this, I wouldn't call it an abuse of the system.)
 - Exercise a lot of forgiveness. People shouldn't be "permanently branded" as a result of small mistakes from which we've all moved past. Oftentimes, people get a rating due to unknowingly acting a bit outside of the community's consensus on appropriate behavior, and such ratings may indeed be appropriate. But if they correct the problem and don't seem likely to do it again, remove the rating or replace it with a neutral. Even if someone refuses to agree with the community consensus (ie. they refuse to back down philosophically), if they're willing to refrain from the behavior, their philosophical difference should not be used to justify a rating. For example, in the YoBit mass-ratings example above, ratings should be immediately removed after the person removes the signature, even if they maintain and continue to argue that they didn't do anything wrong. If someone agrees to "follow 'the law' without agreeing to it", that should be enough.
...

[JollyGood]

he should have known better.

In your opinion should the negative tag remain or should I replace it with a neutral?

Iv4n just messaged me and what I bolded here is exactly what I told him. Even though he should have known better, I think it's a bit harsh for a neg tag. Give everyone in that review thread a neutral IMO as all that really happened was those that were paid hurt the scam sites pocket. Noone pays attention to those reviews, least I wouldn't think so.

It's your decision but I personally think a neutral is fine.

I appreciate the views, thank you.

Yes iv4n should have known better but the fact he continues to play ignorant and does not own up to what his real intention was when choosing those words in the so-called Honest review thread also does not help the situation. It was him that put himself in a position where his integrity could be doubted - just for the sake of a one-off $30 payment from a scam website that has too many allegations against it in this very forum.

What he failed to grasp was, at that stage all those that posted were paid so for him to stoop to a low level of ambiguity (hoping it would ensure he got paid) was a tactic that was simply not necessary. He really should have posted an honest review rather than the semi-promotion of a scam website.

Noone pays attention to those reviews, least I wouldn't think so.

I don't know about that, I really don't.  I'm pretty sure a thread like the one OP linked to wouldn't show up on any Google result (at least not in the first few pages), there is a non-negligible chance that someone could find it and base their decision to visit 1xbit and deposit money there on it.  

I also think a negative trust is a bit harsh.  I have mixed feelings about tagging 1xbit campaign participants and won't do it personally, much less tagging someone voicing his opinion on that casino in a thread that asks for opinions.  That's being overzealous IMO....but JollyGood, I'll tell you: I won't complain for a minute if you keep the tag in place, because his idiotic opinion and that begging for bitcoin deem him a complete parasite in my eyes, and it'd be better if that negative trust inhibited him from joining sig campaigns/bounties in the future.

The trust system is yet again being used to control the shitposter/moron problem, just like it was prior to 2018.  I don't know if the merit system has lost effectiveness or what, but if it's not keeping the problem in check then I think we need a better solution than tagging members like this.  Anyway, I'm fine if you don't remove that feedback, JollyGood.

Thank you for your feedback. As you pointed out the manner in which he virtually begged for the money along with the words used in the post, it was clear to see what his intention was.

Sadly I find myself in that situation again where the line between an out-and-out promotion of a scam vs somewhat ambiguous promotion - are not that blurred and applying a tag can be deemed harsh in some quarters. As you said, if the problem is not being kept in check and there is no other alternative then another solution is needed.

To be honest, no one deserves a red tag for a personal review, promoters and people giving out personal reviews are two different things. If I play on the site and am able to withdraw, I can boldly come out and give my honest opinion without minding the scam accusations against them, but does that mean I should be red tagged for telling my experience on the site? No, I don't believe so.

If you prefer to tag people for offering honest ratings, you may start here. These users were also paid for their honest reviews, so why is iv4n claiming sole responsibility?

Code:

notblox1
woodie
iv4n
slow death
direwolfm14
text
stadus
robelneo
yayayo
worldofcoins
bitbollo
ebede
bitcoinaccepted

theymos needs to explain why DT was implemented it's becoming a weapon tbh.

I agree with your view entirely about people should not be tagged for giving honest opinions therefore I think you are somewhat misguided because in the OP I stated I went through just the first 2 pages of that thread and there are another 10 or so pages remaining and I stated all those that deserve a tag (not giving honest reviews) will be tagged.

Some of those members you listed have already been tagged by me and are on my ignore list so if I decided to skip past them knowing I have already tagged them - I do not think that is a pressing matter. Having said that if you can provide me a link to show where other members have posted a tag worthy promotion or semi-promotion of the 1xbit scammers in the first 2 pages of that thread (because that is how far I have made it so far), I will tag them. Kindly allow me some time to go through the remaining 10 or so pages, I will look forward to reading your views in this thread after.

Is DT really becoming a weapon? In my opinion DT members have a responsibility to ensure they do their utmost to protect the wider members of this community and I cannot apologise for try to contribute a little amount of my time trying to lessen the number of new victims.

I don't really see the point of creating a thread to repeat what has already been said... Just in case I'll copy-quote my reply over there:

The point of creating this thread was to avoid the other thread being overrun with comments about whether a tag was deemed valid or not. It was mentioned in the firsts two paragraphs of the first post in this thread.

[Csmiami]

The point of creating this thread was to avoid the other thread being overrun with comments about whether a tag was deemed valid or not. It was mentioned in the firsts two paragraphs of the first post in this thread.

I do know how to read but I still fail to make sense out of it. You are basically doing an incorrect use of the trust system based on how you perceive things, not on hard evidence and make your own interpretation of the facts.

Asking a casino you don't trust to give some funds so that you can try it on their own review campaign is, from my point of view, not wrong. The casino did later on provide said funds, no review was ever left. There is literally no harm nor ill intention on that.

[borovichok]

Some of those members you listed have already been tagged by me and are on my ignore list so if I decided to skip past them knowing I have already tagged them - I do not think that is a pressing matter. Having said that if you can provide me a link to show where other members have posted a tag worthy promotion or semi-promotion of the 1xbit scammers in the first 2 pages of that thread

Code:

notblox1
woodie
slow death
direwolfm14
text
stadus
robelneo
yayayo
worldofcoins
bitbollo

All these users (not yet tagged)posted on the 1-2 pages of the thread how can you say you didn't see it? You merited the reputable members and red tag the less privileged for committing the same crime( according to your words) I see they are all DT members and they will retaliate if you do. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5339885.0

[UmerIdrees]

Interesting site 1xbit! I never played there, and I am not sure should I start now... Too many unsolved accusations on your account, of course!

But I like easy registration, and I like the list of the coins you accept! Amazing! Also, the list of available games is awesome, I am looking around the site and to be honest I like what I see! I am tempted to deposit some amount and test you... but maybe I will get $30 for this "the-first-look-review"?!

Here is my 1xbit deposit address: bc1qxepaj5xp7klsv797ndgm2xgs98er9ydj0rt625

If I get the coins I will play and I will be able to say something more about 1xbit casino! Cheers!

Just check the highlighted words in the above post. Too many sentences written in the favor of the site. A neutral person who see this post and did not have any prior knowledge of 1xbit will think that it is a good legit site.

I think to be fair with everyone, ask him to return the 30$ which he received for this review to you or anyone agreed and that amount should be sent to any donations. And also he should remove this post and the the tag will be removed.

[notblox1]

Please stop mentioning my username here, I was not kissing anyone ass when I wrote feedback about 1xbit, and I don't need permission from anyone to do that.
I don't really give a damn what any of you are going to do with tags, but with all the the passion borovichok is repeatedly using to defend iv4n, I have to wonder if he is his alt account activated only in special occasions like this to defend him.

borovichok friend feedback:

Interesting site 1xbit! I never played there, and I am not sure should I start now... Too many unsolved accusations on your account, of course!

But I like easy registration, and I like the list of the coins you accept! Amazing! Also, the list of available games is awesome, I am looking around the site and to be honest I like what I see! I am tempted to deposit some amount and test you... but maybe I will get $30 for this "the-first-look-review"?!

Here is my 1xbit deposit address:

If I get the coins I will play and I will be able to say something more about 1xbit casino! Cheers!

my feedback:

I can post honest feedback and review for 1xbit website, but you can't stop people to write something negative about your website with some monetary incentive, and creating self-moderated topic will not help you either.

What I saw after registration to 1xbit website is very slow speed for opening and loading some pages like Sports and others.
Menu in top right side can be confusing, and I think that you have to very high minimum amount for Bitcoin that I can withdraw from my account, that is 5 mBTC or 190 USD!!
Other betting websites have lower limits and some have free withdrawals, and 1xbit is most high as you can see here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5333602.0
There are a lot of payment options and betting markets, but what worries me is that I don't see you have any betting license for operating you service, maybe it's hidden somewhere.

What do you think is more honest from this two feedback?  

Iv4n just messaged me and what I bolded here is exactly what I told him.

He obviously activated an army to defend him.

It's Friday you all, don't you have anything better to do?

[Despairo]

Code:

notblox1
woodie
slow death
direwolfm14
text
stadus
robelneo
yayayo
worldofcoins
bitbollo

Read their reviews first before made a conclusion! You know vouching, neutral, and disapprove review right? I will classified those user based on their review.

Vouching: yayayo

Neutral: notblox1, woodie, stadus, Text, Slow death

Disapprove: DireWolfM14, robelneo, worldofcoins, bitbollo

Question : why neutral and dissaprove opinion should be tagged? only yayayo deserved to get tagged with that's review.

For @iv4n his review is neutral, but what I don't like he's somewhat begging to get money from 1xbit. 1xbit is selective scammer, he wouldn't scam the reviewer. So @iv4n deserve a neutral tag IMO.

[borovichok]

borovichok friend feedback:

borobichok's friend? Really
Asking for a few cent to test run is system before giving a full review sounds good to me

What do you think is more honest from this two feedback?  

Lol. Two users looking for some cents using different methods  

[iv4n]

Granted I do not know iv4n and I have not interacted with him so cannot understand how he might express himself but to me parts of that post show a degree of desperation to get his $30, whereas he should have known better.

Do you really think that my post sounds desperate?! And I asked you a few times, but still without an answer, is it fair to say that I am "Writing highly dubious and selective reviews for getting paid by scammers is unacceptable conduct" judging by this one comment?!
 

" because his idiotic opinion and that begging for bitcoin deem him a complete parasite in my eyes, "

Man... really?! For $30... why the need for such words?! You don't even know me... Do you really think I am what you said after reading my comments? Can you read that post once again, I just wrote what I saw for the first time, idiotic is an offensive word, I wrote what I saw so it's my opinion in that moment... and check the next page to see my next post, don't be lazy... if you plan to judge people around!

In the end, I didn't even know I was paid for that... I just checked that address, $30 bucks still sit there!

This is a clear mistake... I definitely don't "Write highly dubious and selective reviews for getting paid", and this post is not even close to that! I opened 1xbit for the first time, and it was just simple and easy registration, without mail and anything and I decided to give it a try and write my opinion, without any other intentions as Jolly believes I have!

Calling me different names for silly $30 is funny... I had donations in this forum, rains in so many places... at least people I gamble around knows that, people from poker we played on this forum...

Edit:

he's somewhat begging to get money from 1xbit.

Really? Begging? This is becoming hilarious...

Maybe it's really me... maybe I really sound like that, but I am not aware?!

[JollyGood]

The point of creating this thread was to avoid the other thread being overrun with comments about whether a tag was deemed valid or not. It was mentioned in the firsts two paragraphs of the first post in this thread.

I do know how to read but I still fail to make sense out of it.

Ok

You are basically doing an incorrect use of the trust system based on how you perceive things, not on hard evidence and make your own interpretation of the facts.

If you think an incorrect use of the trust system has been applied am I the only forum member you noticed using it? The action you took in this particular case was to post in this thread and state your opposition but have you applied the same vigilance to other forum members you deem to be using the trust system incorrectly or is this only case where you have been vocal?

There is a fine line between hard facts and interpretations of facts, how one sees them is debatable and we all have a right to our opinions.

Asking a casino you don't trust to give some funds so that you can try it on their own review campaign is, from my point of view, not wrong. The casino did later on provide said funds, no review was ever left. There is literally no harm nor ill intention on that.

It is your opinion and you are entitled to it but here are some of us that disagree with that view.

In my opinion (and other members in this thread) the manner in which iv4n used highly selective text in order to please the 1xbit scammers in the belief it would ensure a $30 payment was not appropriate because it was viewed less as an honest review and more of a semi-promotion akin to a shill and he put himself in that position where his integrity and credibility is now being questioned.

Some of those members you listed have already been tagged by me and are on my ignore list so if I decided to skip past them knowing I have already tagged them - I do not think that is a pressing matter. Having said that if you can provide me a link to show where other members have posted a tag worthy promotion or semi-promotion of the 1xbit scammers in the first 2 pages of that thread

Code:

~snip

All these users (not yet tagged)posted on the 1-2 pages of the thread how can you say you didn't see it? You merited the reputable members and red tag the less privileged for committing the same crime( according to your words) I see they are all DT members and they will retaliate if you do. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5339885.0

As mentioned to you earlier in this thread:

"if you can provide me a link to show where other members have posted a tag worthy promotion or semi-promotion of the 1xbit scammers in the first 2 pages of that thread (because that is how far I have made it so far), I will tag them. Kindly allow me some time to go through the remaining 10 or so pages, I will look forward to reading your views in this thread after."

Interesting site 1xbit! I never played there, and I am not sure should I start now... Too many unsolved accusations on your account, of course!

But I like easy registration, and I like the list of the coins you accept! Amazing! Also, the list of available games is awesome, I am looking around the site and to be honest I like what I see! I am tempted to deposit some amount and test you... but maybe I will get $30 for this "the-first-look-review"?!

Here is my 1xbit deposit address: bc1qxepaj5xp7klsv797ndgm2xgs98er9ydj0rt625

If I get the coins I will play and I will be able to say something more about 1xbit casino! Cheers!

Just check the highlighted words in the above post. Too many sentences written in the favor of the site. A neutral person who see this post and did not have any prior knowledge of 1xbit will think that it is a good legit site.

I think to be fair with everyone, ask him to return the 30$ which he received for this review to you or anyone agreed and that amount should be sent to any donations. And also he should remove this post and the the tag will be removed.

Yes it clear iv4n knew exactly what he was doing with that so-called honest review.

[notblox1]

borobichok's friend? Really
Asking for a few cent to test run is system before giving a full review sounds good to me

Are you his lawyer now?

Lol. Two users looking for some cents using different methods  

Yes two different methods, because I registered on website send my coins, tried website and wrote honest feedback.

his review is neutral

Neutral feedback is not when you say words like Amazing, Awesome and I like what I see.

But, I would never give anyone negative feedback for something like this.

[iv4n]

...
Yes it clear iv4n knew exactly what he was doing with that so-called honest review.

Getting $30 bucks for:

but maybe I will get $30 for this "the-first-look-review"?!

And putting all in on red?!

Yes, I don't even try to run from that...  but calling me like that in the negative trust you gave me, using some names to describe me... you take it too far! It's not even about those $30 bucks...

Looks like you can't admit that you are wrong here!

[borovichok]

borobichok's friend? Really
Asking for a few cent to test run is system before giving a full review sounds good to me

Are you his lawyer now?

Lol. I hate humans.

Lol. Two users looking for some cents using different methods  

Yes two different methods, because I registered on website send my coins, tried website and wrote honest feedback.

He did registered on the site too according to his words and gave his review based on the registration aspects though.

his review is neutral

Neutral feedback is not when you say words like Amazing, Awesome and I like what I see.

But, I would never give anyone negative feedback for something like this.

Tbh. the 1xbit site is beautiful than anyone I've seen on the forum maybe soortsbet.io comes 2nd, I won't blaming anyone talking good about the structure of the site.

Neg or Pos I don't care about what humans does. JollyGood it's Friday go have some fun

[LoyceV]

When in doubt: use Neutral.

In your opinion should the negative tag remain or should I replace it with a neutral?

If you have to ask, I assume you're not absolutely sure, so it shouln't be negative.

It's also wise to ask yourself before leaving feedback: "Does my feedback make Bitcointalk a better place? And if it's negative: is it worth destroying someone's account and reputation over this?". Consider using Neutral feedback if neither Positive nor Negative is justified.

[UmerIdrees]

When in doubt: use Neutral.

In your opinion should the negative tag remain or should I replace it with a neutral?

If you have to ask, I assume you're not absolutely sure, so it shouln't be negative.

It's also wise to ask yourself before leaving feedback: "Does my feedback make Bitcointalk a better place? And if it's negative: is it worth destroying someone's account and reputation over this?". Consider using Neutral feedback if neither Positive nor Negative is justified.

The problem here is that it is not a one to one case. If it was that, i would have also suggested for a Neutral. The issue here is that if you give him Neutral for his semi-favorable wording for the scam site, the others might also jump in and demand for the same treatment.