[WO/Hat-Gang Only - MODERATED] The fucking COVID vax thread (No hat? Fuck off!)

[AlcoHoDL]

I don't know how significant the above data is, and if my original post made WO so dirty or whatever. This is what it is, take it as you may. I present the data, it may be skewed, incomplete, small sample, and whatever else you can say about it. The reader can draw his/her own conclusions.

On the worldwide scale, it's not significant, at all. For all the reasons you listed. It's just your local, personal experience.

Larger world collected data and metrics are what is significant, and tell the true story.

I think a pool of 500 people should reflect the total trend, as I show below:

In your own reply to my original WO post, you say that so far the vaccines have "caused 2.4M adverse drug reactions, heart inflammation, blood clots, and deaths". Let's do some calculations based on that data that you, yourself, provided:

Total worldwide vaccine adverse reactions: 2,400,000   <--- Source: Your own post
Total worldwide full vaccinations (2 doses): 4,300,000,000   <--- Source: Johns Hopkins University (JHU)

The above worldwide-scale data clearly show that, on average, 2,400,000 / 4,300,000,000 = 1 / 1792 = 0.056% of all vaccinated people developing any adverse reactions (death is much, much lower). 0.056%

Let's take the above result and apply it to my own pool of social circle. This is about 500 people, out of which around 80% are vaccinated, which gives us a total of 400 vaccinated people. Therefore, it follows from the above worldwide-scale results, that I should be expecting to observe the following trend in my social circle:

400 (vaccinated people) x 0.056% (percentage of vaccine adverse reactions) = 0.22 vaccinated people with adverse reactions!

In other words, simple mathematics show us that, out of the 400 vaccinated people in my social circle, I should be seeing about 0.22 vaccinated people suffering from adverse reactions to the vaccines. Well, that's EXACTLY what I'm seeing! 0.22 people = ZERO!

These are the facts, these are the sources, this is the analysis. Everyone reading this: use your common sense, your logic and your brain to draw your own conclusions. Strip away your ego, your self-righteousness and your herd mentality, and view this with a totally open mind. I'm not typing all this just for Torque, but for all to see. This is not about vaxxers vs. anti-vaxxers. If you're seeing it that way, you've already fallen into the very trap you're trying to avoid.

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[OutOfMemory]

Here's my local, personal experience. I have lost a buddy and a colleague. At the home for the elderly where my GF works, more then 20% of the people who lived there died. Not a nice way to go btw. My GF has long covid, now 1,5 years. Many colleagues and friends have been sick and some have needed hospital care and some have needed months to recover. I have not heard about a single problem with vaccinations.

But indeed, just local, personal experience. The problem here is that we disagree on where to get the larger numbers.

Having had a scientific education myself, I really dislike this 'dyor' mantra that is going around. As it presupposes you should not trust the research (the real, peer-reviewed scientific research) done by people who actually know what they are talking about.

Yesterday my wife told me about her working colleague's wife, who had long covid, but when she got vaccinated about 6 months after her infection, the long covid symptoms disappeared within days. Might be a coincidence, might be not. EDIT: might not work in every case, if not.

EDIT 2:
What we know: The vaccines are triggering a specific immune response, which is mainly capable of successfully combating the virus in the later stages of infection, which are said to trigger "cytokine storms" because of inflammation. This should match the mentioned case. Maybe her immune system just needed a quick, well targeted jumpstart to finally get rid of the last remaining pieces of SARS-CoV-2 from the blood/organs.

[cAPSLOCK]

I feel like people opinions can be roughly divided into 4 groups:

1.  People who did not get the vaccine, and think it is risky, and/or profit driven and think that the majority of folks (if not all) should NOT get it.
2.  People who did not get the vaccine, think it is risky enough to avoid, but respect other rights to choose differently.
3.  People who DID the the vaccine, might possibly regret it, most likely did not plan to get any boosters, but respect other rights to choose differently.
4.  People who got the vaccine, intend to continue with any suggested boosters, and feel it is critical for others to get it too for their own safety as well as others.

It's 1 vs 4 that are reacting like baking soda and vinegar.

2 and 3 mostly agree that coercion and mandates are wrong. 

Interestingly, there are good scientific arguments that can be made for both #1 and #4.

[Torque]

<simple maths calcs>

These are the facts, these are the sources, this is the analysis. Everyone reading this: use your common sense, your logic and your brain to draw your own conclusions. Strip away your ego, your self-righteousness and your herd mentality, and view this with a totally open mind. I'm not typing all this just for Torque, but for all to see. This is not about vaxxers vs. anti-vaxxers. If you're seeing it that way, you've already fallen into the very trap you're trying to avoid.

I could be wrong, but I thought the CDC's published ADRs were only for the U.S., and even those are VASTLY underreported. The VAERS database does not have all the available data. According to both Harvard and HHS, Health and Human services, only 1% of all adverse reactions are registered on the VAERS official reporting site.

But let's assume for the moment that your math about the ADRs has some merit, and the vaccines are as safe as you say.

The bigger question is then, why take the vaccines at all? Just because they are safe?

Since you like math, go out and gather the stat data, crunch the numbers, and then mathematically show me the proof that having more of the world's population vaccinated would do ANYTHING to:

1) Stop someone from contracting CV-19. This is a proven fact now that it does not protect someone from getting it.

2) Stop or slow the spread of the virus. Countries with the highest reported vaccination rates inexplicably have the highest number of newly reported cases, literally off the charts. (Hint: because the vaccinated are the ones spreading it)

3) Stop the extreme reaction cases from going into the ICU, or even dying. That was the original purpose of the vaccine, to prevent that. There are people who are 100% vaxxed (2, 3 jabs) that are still ending up in the ICU and dying. (mostly from their extreme age + comorbidities, but the govt doesn't want you to care about that)

4) Stop lockdowns, mask wearing, and/or having to have proof of vaccine papers to go anywhere and do anything. There are now countries with 90%+, even near 99% vaccinated, that still have to live under these draconian violations of their civil liberties. Why? If the populous are all vaccinated, then what is there to fear? Shouldn't they have their freedoms?

If I were to contract Covid-19 without taking the vaccine jabs, I have a 99.98% chance of surviving it (probably more based on my age + my level of health/fitness), plus I would have natural immunity. If I were to take the vaccine jabs, even if they were 100% safe, they would not significantly improve my chances to survive it all that much, which is already extremely high. But more importantly, it would not add ANYTHING AT ALL data wise to my points #1-#4 above. AT ALL. So why would I take it again? Who would I be taking it for?

Strip away your ego, self-righteousness, and herd mentality, and ask yourself, who should you be getting the vaccine for, and why? Where's the hard data to support the theory of "more vaccinated + forever boosters == eradicate or stop the spread of Covid"?

[BobLawblaw]

@AlcoHoDL

Sincerely sorry for the loss you and your family are currently experiencing.

This virus is a real bitch to be sure, and daily human society has been completely overturned as a result, while our overlords attempt... whatever it is they are attempting...

Sharing a related story, on a personal level, I recently learned of a COVID19 related death of one of the workers that was on the fence team on our ranch project.

When the dispute came up with the neighbors, and the fence team had to get taken off the job early, one of the older fellows on the team asked their leads if he could take off two weeks to Mexico to spend some time with his family.

He ended up contracting COVID19 while in Mexico, and learned he had passed away as a result - when the team returned to complete the work recently, minus the one older fellow.

I can't help but to feel my asshole neighbors starting a dispute we steamrolled them on in the end, resulted in the untimely death of someone that was working on a project for us. That weighs on me.

This timeline really sucks right now.

[OutOfMemory]

I can't help but to feel my asshole neighbors starting a dispute we steamrolled them on in the end, resulted in the untimely death of someone that was working on a project for us. That weighs on me.

This timeline really sucks right now.

A sad story.
I don't want to downplay your feelings, but aren't you feeling overly responsible for this death?
I mean, isn't it likely he would have traveled to Mexico to the same time, with the same results as without being involved into the fence project?

There's a reason for this question. I was once in a similar situation. A friend has taken his own life, poisoning himself at home. I planned a visit some day, called him, he didn't pick up or call back. Two days later, when i tried again, the phone was offline and never came back on. Then i had a bunch of other problems to take care of, when i heard he was found six weeks later by one of our friends. This one needed mental help after the discovery of the remainings of a man, died six weeks ago in a warm room.
He said he will never forget the look of it.

So, did i feel overly responsible? Yes. A fucking lot, quite some time.
At the funeral, i though that i could have gone to his flat and just knock on the (unlocked) door and/or enter.
Maybe it would have been early enough to save his life.

Now his ashes are at the cemetery, and he wished for them to be thrown into the sea on the letter they found.
At least i have a chance to do him the honor, i don't know when i will do it. Involves serious planning and the help of at least one companion.

Sometimes, when we think we could have changed something bad happening, we feel overly responsible.
Sure, we are responsible, but not that lot, imho.
His neighbor, who attended the funeral asked me to not feel responsible for my friends death.

[AlcoHoDL]

These are the facts, these are the sources, this is the analysis. Everyone reading this: use your common sense, your logic and your brain to draw your own conclusions. Strip away your ego, your self-righteousness and your herd mentality, and view this with a totally open mind. I'm not typing all this just for Torque, but for all to see. This is not about vaxxers vs. anti-vaxxers. If you're seeing it that way, you've already fallen into the very trap you're trying to avoid.

The CDC's published ADRs for the vaccines is VASTLY underreported by at least a factor of 5X. Not even the VAERS database has all the available data.

But let's assume for the moment that your math about the ADRs has some merit, and the vaccines are as safe as you say.

The bigger question is then, why take the vaccines at all? Just because they are safe?

Since you like math, go out and gather the stat data, crunch the numbers, and then mathematically show me the proof that having more of the world's population vaccinated would do ANYTHING to:

1) Stop someone from contracting CV-19. This is a proven fact now that it does not protect someone from getting it.

2) Stop or slow the spread of the virus. Countries with the highest reported vaccination rates inexplicably have the highest number of newly reported cases, literally off the charts. (Hint: because the vaccinated are the ones spreading it)

3) Stop the extreme reaction cases from going into the ICU, or even dying. That was the original purpose of the vaccine, to prevent that. There are people who are 100% vaxxed (2, 3 jabs) that are still ending up in the ICU and dying.

4) Stop lockdowns, mask wearing, and/or having to have proof of vaccine papers to go anywhere and do anything. There are now countries with 90%+, even near 99% vaccinated, that still have to live under these draconian violations of their civil liberties. Why? If the populous are all vaccinated, then what is there to fear? Shouldn't they have their freedoms?

Torque, I have nothing against you personally, and I actually quite like many of your posts on WO. Frankly, I currently don't have the time or the state of mind to answer the barrage of questions and analysis you are asking me to do above. I did my part, I told my story, which I felt was a duty to my fellow WOers with whom I virtually hang out every day, as I did to many of my friends and relatives in real life. I did my analysis with official numbers and those you provided yourself earlier. To me, the conclusion is overwhelmingly in favor of the vaccines. To you and others it may not be so. That's OK. I just wanted to publish my story, my analysis and my conclusions for everyone to see and evaluate. Clearly, you didn't like it and didn't appreciate it. That's OK, just scroll past it.

Strip away your ego, self-righteousness, and herd mentality, and ask yourself, who should you be getting the vaccine for, and why? Where's the data to support the theory of "more vaccinated + forever boosters == eradicate or stop the spread of Covid"?

Honest answer: I got the vaccine because I don't want to die like 10 of my friends and relatives died. I want to be part of the other group, where ZERO have died. See my analysis in my earlier post to see how this is also reflected and generalized in a world-wide scale. This is not fear, it's common sense and logic.

We are at war. Two choices:

1. Go out to battle with the only readily accessible protection we've got. A shield. Not perfect, not 100% effective, has a funny shape and the metal is rough and heavy, but it's a shield. It will protect us to a significant degree, and the figures clearly confirm it. This shield is being used and abused by pharmaceutical companies to gain huge profits, governments use and abuse it to gain political power and exert control on the masses. The media use and abuse it to gain influence and promote their own evil agendas. BUT IT'S STILL A SHIELD!

2. Go out to battle completely naked, wish ourselves good luck, or even worse, pray to some supernatural entity to protect us. Somehow I feel the odds will be against us. And, do you know what the most tragic part of all this is? Pfizer/Moderna will still get super-rich, governments will still use and abuse the system to control the masses. But we'll be DEAD. DEAD! A 20-second news report.

The choice is ours.

@AlcoHoDL

Sincerely sorry for the loss you and your family are currently experiencing.

This virus is a real bitch to be sure, and daily human society has been completely overturned as a result, while our overlords attempt... whatever it is they are attempting...

Sharing a related story, on a personal level, I recently learned of a COVID19 related death of one of the workers that was on the fence team on our ranch project.

When the dispute came up with the neighbors, and the fence team had to get taken off the job early, one of the older fellows on the team asked their leads if he could take off two weeks to Mexico to spend some time with his family.

He ended up contracting COVID19 while in Mexico, and learned he had passed away as a result - when the team returned to complete the work recently, minus the one older fellow.

I can't help but to feel my asshole neighbors starting a dispute we steamrolled them on in the end, resulted in the untimely death of someone that was working on a project for us. That weighs on me.

This timeline really sucks right now.

That's so sad Bob, really sorry about this. Like they say... A butterfly's wings can cause a tsunami... Chaos theory. Because that's what this is. I guess the sequence of events was unfortunate for that worker in your team...

As OOM says, maybe you're being too hard on yourself, but I fully understand you. I feel the same. When we lose a loved one we always go through the "what if" torture chamber. Unanswered questions, and that damned conscience is ever-present to tell us when and where we did something wrong.

This shit we're going through is tough for all of us, infected, uninfected, vaccinated, unvaccinated. Masks everywhere, COVID passes to go have a coffee or dine with friends. I hate it every time I have to show that QR code to the waitress. I don't know what the solution is, but it certainly is NOT to divide and conquer us into herds of vaxxers vs. anti-vaxxers, like robots auto-reacting to some trigger. Fuck this shit. I see little kids with child-sized masks on, almost treating it like a game. Is this a good sight? Fuck no.

Let's hope it all goes away soon, or if it stays, it becomes manageable.

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

[Torque]

Frankly, I currently don't have the time or the state of mind to answer the barrage of questions and analysis you are asking me to do above.

So you have time to hurl insults at anti-vaxxers and literally tell them to fuck off, time to base all your conclusions on emotional, personal experiences only, but you don't have time to do the research and answer my questions backed with real "science"- i.e., rebuttals with collected data, stats, and logical reasoning?

It is not magic. It is science.

Got it.

Honest answer: I got the vaccine because I don't want to die like 10 of my friends and relatives died.

Wow...first your story it was one relative, then it was two...now it is 10 of your close friends and relatives that have died? My my, where you live, unvaxxed peeps around you are just dropping like flies, aren't they?

[aesma]

If I were to contract Covid-19 without taking the vaccine jabs, I have a 99.98% chance of surviving it (probably more based on my age + my level of health/fitness), plus I would have natural immunity. If I were to take the vaccine jabs, even if they were 100% safe, they would not significantly improve my chances to survive it all that much, which is already extremely high. But more importantly, it would not add ANYTHING AT ALL data wise to my points #1-#4 above. AT ALL. So why would I take it again? Who would I be taking it for?

Strip away your ego, self-righteousness, and herd mentality, and ask yourself, who should you be getting the vaccine for, and why? Where's the hard data to support the theory of "more vaccinated + forever boosters == eradicate or stop the spread of Covid"?

99.98% chance of surviving is good enough for you, fine. How much chance you'll need the ICU other people might also need ? How much chance you'll get long COVID ?

[AlcoHoDL]

Frankly, I currently don't have the time or the state of mind to answer the barrage of questions and analysis you are asking me to do above.

So you have time to hurl insults at anti-vaxxers and literally tell them to fuck off, time to base all your conclusions on emotional, personal experiences only, but you don't have time to do the research and answer my questions backed with real "science"- i.e., rebuttals with collected data, stats, and logical reasoning?

Someone close to me has just died of COVID-19, who could have been saved if he had been vaccinated. No, I don't have the time needed to do the barrage of tasks you asked me to, that even specialist scientists need months/years to do. On the other hand, I do have one Sunday to spend posting my story and commenting on replies, in the hope someone is helped by the discussion. I even did an analysis using the numerical data YOU provided, which you miserably failed to refute -- a common tactic of those unable to respond with evidence: throw a ton of questions in place of a concise, meaningful and factual reply they are unable to provide.

It is not magic. It is science.

Got it.

Judging from your post, I don't think you got anything at all, as your lack of comprehension is evident throughout. Let me spell it out to you once more -- maybe there's still hope:

Vaccines = Science
Vaccines =/= Magic

Honest answer: I got the vaccine because I don't want to die like 10 of my friends and relatives died.

Wow...first your story it was one relative, then it was two...now it is 10 of your close friends and relatives that have died? My my, where you live, unvaxxed peeps around you are just dropping like flies, aren't they?

Now you have resorted to outward lies and misquoting me. Re-read all my posts. For your (and readers') convenience, I'm including all relevant links to my posts below. I openly and publicly challenge you to give evidence that supports what you mentioned above, by providing verbatim quotes of my posts. If you fail to do so, you, Torque, are a LIAR.

I talked about one (1) casualty today (45 y.o.), and there was another one (1) about a month ago (my uncle, in his 80s). These were close to me. 1+1=2. TWO. Overall, on my social circle (500+) there are TEN (10) unvaccinated deaths. Yet, out of the very same social circle, there are ZERO, NADA, NO deaths of vaccinated people whatsoever. Are you able to comprehend this? All of the above is nicely summarized in my post here, which you clearly have trouble comprehending (again)!

Since you, Torque, clearly have such cognitive problems as to not being able to comprehend layman's English, let's try some math, shall we?

Worldwide evidence: 2,400,000 (vaccination side-effects <-- YOUR number) / 4,300,000,000 (total vaccinations) = 1 / 1792 = 0.056% of all vaccinated people developing any adverse reactions (even mild ones). 0.056% [Full analysis with sources here]

Any meaningful, factual-based response to the above, other than showing a horrible twitter photo of a nasty reaction to the AZ vaccine, with that person already fully recovered, and being among the 0.056% of cases calculated above?

No? I thought so.

[BobLawblaw]

Worldwide evidence: 2,400,000 (vaccination side-effects <-- YOUR number) / 4,300,000,000 (total vaccinations) = 1 / 1792 = 0.056% of all vaccinated people developing any adverse reactions (even mild ones). 0.056%

I don't want to sound disrespectful, but we know there is vast underreporting of adverse events.

How many footballers do you need to see collapsing on the pitch, clutching their chests, before FIFA can't hide the problems any longer?

Have you heard about the situation in Gibraltar recently?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/christmas-cancelled-gibraltar-vaccinations-b966816.html

"Gibraltar has seen cases increase with 66 new daily infections reported on average - equivalent to 52% of its peak in January.
The Rock has administered at least 94,469 vaccine doses so far which is enough to have fully vaccinated 140.2% of the country’s population."

I don't want to come off as cheeky, but it's arguable breakthrough infections are an adverse reaction.

Could you imagine the outrage of someone being traditionally vaccinated against smallpox, and contracting smallpox, to offer a different viewpoint?

[AlcoHoDL]

Worldwide evidence: 2,400,000 (vaccination side-effects <-- YOUR number) / 4,300,000,000 (total vaccinations) = 1 / 1792 = 0.056% of all vaccinated people developing any adverse reactions (even mild ones). 0.056%

I don't want to sound disrespectful, but we know there is vast underreporting of adverse events.

How many footballers do you need to see collapsing on the pitch, clutching their chests, before FIFA can't hide the problems any longer?

Have you heard about the situation in Gibraltar recently?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/christmas-cancelled-gibraltar-vaccinations-b966816.html

"Gibraltar has seen cases increase with 66 new daily infections reported on average - equivalent to 52% of its peak in January.
The Rock has administered at least 94,469 vaccine doses so far which is enough to have fully vaccinated 140.2% of the country’s population."

I don't want to come off as cheeky, but it's arguable breakthrough infections are an adverse reaction.

Could you imagine the outrage of someone being traditionally vaccinated against smallpox, and contracting smallpox, to offer a different viewpoint?

Thanks for that information Bob, I appreciate it, and the entire manner in which you have handled the recent COVID-19 discussion. You are not being disrespectful at all.

About my calculations above, I just used Torque's own data (taken directly from his own post), so that there is no dispute in the source of the numbers. Surely, those numbers could be higher, I accept that.

I was not aware of the Gibraltar situation, will look into it.

Or course, vaccines, especially the COVID-19 ones, are far from perfect, I never claimed they were, because there's no such thing as a perfect drug. I just cannot buy the theory that this is somehow deliberate, though. That somehow the pharmaceutical companies have deliberately designed vaccines to cause side-effects, in order to kill or disable us. Pharmaceutical companies have lied to us and will continue to lie to us, as long as it affects their profits, power and influence, as do, routinely, almost all big corporations, governments, TPTB in general. But, in the midst of it all, what can we do to shield ourselves against this disease? I've suffered the ordeal of COVID-19 in January, it gave me hell. You went through it too, and as I recall it gave you hell too. Can you imagine being permanently disabled or even dying from it? You weren't and I wasn't. We survived it, sure, but was the risk of being unprotected worth it?

I don't claim to know the truth, far from it. What I know is that the internet is full of blogs and "news" sources claiming that the Earth is flat, all vaccines (generally, not just for COVID-19) are bad for us (Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who is not even a doctor, is a pioneer in this misinformation), 5G is designed to control our brains, and all sorts of Hocus Pocus Harry Potter material for those naive enough to buy them. What am I to believe out of all this? So, what I do is examine my social circle, those cases I can personally verify, and try to correlate these with larger-scale data, in the hope of finding some sort of trend or pattern. I've had 10 deaths that I can recall, most of them old and frail people, but unvaccinated. Still, in the very same pool, there are many more old and frail ones (some in their 90s) who are vaccinated and NO ONE of them has died. To me, 10 vs. 0 is an indicator. It tells me something. Similar observations are reported by virtually all of my friends and relatives, and some WOers here (post 1, post 2).

Anyone, reading this, just do a survey in your own social circle, ask around and get first-hand, verifiable data. See what you find. Post here if you have the time.

My motivation was purely to get my story out for all to read and evaluate. I would very much like to read similar stories from other WOers, of both vaccinated and unvaccinated cases -- but NOT copy/pasted, second-hand, unverifiable tweets or cases unrelated to the poster. I'd like to read about real cases happening to our own social circles, that we can first-handedly verify, whose persons involved we are friends/acquaintances with, whose phone numbers are in our phones. I've personally done that, and my conclusions are overwhelmingly in favor of getting the vaccine vs. staying unprotected. I've got 2 doses of the Pfizer variety. Not very eager to get a 3rd dose, but I might, depending on how the situation develops. I feel healthy, I've never experienced any side-effects whatsoever. Am I lucky? I don't know. I just applied the above and it has worked out OK so far for me. I wish the same for all of us, to be healthy and survive this.

[julian071]

Here's my local, personal experience. I have lost a buddy and a colleague. At the home for the elderly where my GF works, more then 20% of the people who lived there died. Not a nice way to go btw. My GF has long covid, now 1,5 years. Many colleagues and friends have been sick and some have needed hospital care and some have needed months to recover. I have not heard about a single problem with vaccinations.

But indeed, just local, personal experience. The problem here is that we disagree on where to get the larger numbers.

Having had a scientific education myself, I really dislike this 'dyor' mantra that is going around. As it presupposes you should not trust the research (the real, peer-reviewed scientific research) done by people who actually know what they are talking about.

Yesterday my wife told me about her working colleague's wife, who had long covid, but when she got vaccinated about 6 months after her infection, the long covid symptoms disappeared within days. Might be a coincidence, might be not. EDIT: might not work in every case, if not.

EDIT 2:
What we know: The vaccines are triggering a specific immune response, which is mainly capable of successfully combating the virus in the later stages of infection, which are said to trigger "cytokine storms" because of inflammation. This should match the mentioned case. Maybe her immune system just needed a quick, well targeted jumpstart to finally get rid of the last remaining pieces of SARS-CoV-2 from the blood/organs.

There have been more cases of symptoms disappearing after a jab, it also features in some really excellent information about long covid published by the British ME association: https://meassociation.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Long-covid-and-MECFS-April-2021.pdf

Thanks for the info!

[aesma]

I don't want to sound disrespectful, but we know there is vast underreporting of adverse events.

I have heard the opposite. Someone dies of a heart attack two days after getting jabbed : it's reported, even though it probably has nothing to do with the vaccine.

Have you heard about the situation in Gibraltar recently?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/christmas-cancelled-gibraltar-vaccinations-b966816.html

"Gibraltar has seen cases increase with 66 new daily infections reported on average - equivalent to 52% of its peak in January.
The Rock has administered at least 94,469 vaccine doses so far which is enough to have fully vaccinated 140.2% of the country’s population."

I don't want to come off as cheeky, but it's arguable breakthrough infections are an adverse reaction.

Could you imagine the outrage of someone being traditionally vaccinated against smallpox, and contracting smallpox, to offer a different viewpoint?

I was reading about vaccines on wikipedia the other day, and it turns out the smallpox virus is infectious (on purpose). It's not recommended for some people because of this.

Another common vaccine, against polio, can become contagious, and the vaccinated person starts contaminating others ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine#Vaccine-induced_polio

[Torque]

Frankly, I currently don't have the time or the state of mind to answer the barrage of questions and analysis you are asking me to do above.

So you have time to hurl insults at anti-vaxxers and literally tell them to fuck off, time to base all your conclusions on emotional, personal experiences only, but you don't have time to do the research and answer my questions backed with real "science"- i.e., rebuttals with collected data, stats, and logical reasoning?

Someone close to me has just died of COVID-19, who could have been saved if he had been vaccinated. No, I don't have the time needed to do the barrage of tasks you asked me to, that even specialist scientists need months/years to do. On the other hand, I do have one Sunday to spend posting my story and commenting on replies, in the hope someone is helped by the discussion. I even did an analysis using the numerical data YOU provided, which you miserably failed to refute -- a common tactic of those unable to respond with evidence: throw a ton of questions in place of a concise, meaningful and factual reply they are unable to provide.

No, I didn't refute it at all.

In fact I said, let's assume for a moment that you are right and that the vaccines are indeed as SAFE as you say.

Then you prove, with science data and stats to support it, that they are also EFFECTIVE. Like as in stopping infections, stopping or even slowing transmission, stopping people from going into ICU and/or dying, and giving back civil liberties that have been forcefully taken away.

SAFE and EFFECTIVE. You can't just have one or the other, you have to have BOTH. That's the whole point of a vaccine. Remember?

And just like those pro-vaxxers who like to talk a bunch of nonsense, YOU cannot respond to my original questions asked with any meaningful "science" data to back it up. You just skirt all of them, as per typical.  

Or course, vaccines, especially the COVID-19 ones, are far from perfect, I never claimed they were, because there's no such thing as a perfect drug. I just cannot buy the theory that this is somehow deliberate, though. That somehow the pharmaceutical companies have deliberately designed vaccines to cause side-effects, in order to kill or disable us. Pharmaceutical companies have lied to us and will continue to lie to us, as long as it affects their profits, power and influence, as do, routinely, almost all big corporations, governments, TPTB in general.

Dude, wat? Are you high? This is the second time in this thread that you have admitted that pharmaceutical companies lie and are basically evil and out for profit, yet you still say that you whole-heartedly trust the vaccines? That don't compute. Cognitive dissonance much?  

And no one is saying that the pharma companies DELIBERATELY designed in or added side effects to the CV19 vaccines, in order to kill people. That's ridiculous. Those that believe that are loopy. The vaccines just HAVE side effects, it's a by-product of their mRNA delivery mechanism and the way they work. The pharma companies would love to produce these vaccines without any side effects, but unfortunately they can't do that.

[El duderino_]

Made me Laugh

[BobLawblaw]

I was reading about vaccines on wikipedia the other day, and it turns out the smallpox virus is infectious (on purpose). It's not recommended for some people because of this.

AFAIK, this is a consequence of a more modern formulation. I am not well read enough of the historical vaccines that rid us of the scourge of smallpox, to begin with, but will concede your point. Ultimately, my point is, the smallpox vaccine did more good than harm.

Another common vaccine, against polio, can become contagious, and the vaccinated person starts contaminating others ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine#Vaccine-induced_polio

Again, rare and unfortunate edge cases. I sympathize. The ultimate subtext being that the formulations being dispensed vs smallpox and polio ultimately eradicated the ailments in todays modern age.

We are indeed preoccupied, presently, on the VAERS cases, and other high profile examples of athletes collapsing - which would be in line with your comparisons to concerns with polio and smallpox problems with the strategies they employed.

My point is, ultimately things got better after the polio and smallpox campaigns.

It's clear as day, this mRNA atrocity being unleashed upon humanity right now is a crime against nature we will pay dearly for.

It is not clear the mRNA therapies are doing more good than harm, and arguable it is doing more harm.

It's a double crime against nature come to think of it, seeing as how C19 was lab generated as a gain-of-function test to begin with.

Curious how Delta to Omicron underwent something like 20 generations of mutations in a hyper-compressed timespan.

I wonder what sort of science is involved in enabling pathogens to be able to make astounding, sudden morphological changes like that.

Very very curious... that gain-of-function research. Eh?

... and again, this is coming from some retarded unvaxxed nigger, that got delta, got the antibodies, and is moving on with life on this stupid Goddamn space rock.

[AlcoHoDL]

Or course, vaccines, especially the COVID-19 ones, are far from perfect, I never claimed they were, because there's no such thing as a perfect drug. I just cannot buy the theory that this is somehow deliberate, though. That somehow the pharmaceutical companies have deliberately designed vaccines to cause side-effects, in order to kill or disable us. Pharmaceutical companies have lied to us and will continue to lie to us, as long as it affects their profits, power and influence, as do, routinely, almost all big corporations, governments, TPTB in general.

Dude, wat? Are you high? This is the second time that you have admitted that pharmaceutical companies lie and are basically evil and out for profit, yet you still say you whole-heartedly trust the vaccines? That don't compute. Cognitive dissonance much?  

And no one is saying that the pharma companies DELIBERATELY designed or added side effects to the CV19 vaccines, in order to kill people. That's ridiculous. The vaccines just HAVE side effects, it's a by-product of their mRNA delivery mechanism and the way they work.

Let me put it this way, so that my point becomes clearer:

Suppose that a heart surgeon is corrupt, but he is the only heart surgeon available to operate on me. If I have a serious heart condition, I will have no choice but to visit that doctor. I don't like him, but it's my only option for an operation. I won't need to be friends with him. I won't need to hang out with him. I just want him to operate on me and save me. I will simply use his services. I could choose not to visit him and wait at home until a more ethical surgeon becomes available. Would that be a wise choice? You answer that.

Do you think Intel/AMD are ethical? Do you think the food chain and all the supermarket labels are ethical? Do you think the big supermarket chains themselves are ethical? Have you heard of Foxconn, the major makers of iPhone and other electronic devices, where they have installed nets around their production plants, to catch workers jumping to commit suicide due to the pressure they receive for long work hours and low wages? I can GUARANTEE you that almost all of the above are corrupt and constantly play dirty games in the stock market and put pressure on their suppliers for cheaper goods. The don't give a rat's ass about their workers or you and me. They only care about maximizing their profits, just like pharma. Yet, almost all of us use most of the above. Does this mean we are all so corrupt ourselves? Do we like or even enjoy all this? HELL NO! But THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE, apart from going to the mountains and live in a cave, like Ted Kaczynski did. And what did he achieve? Nothing! A brilliant mathematician, completely wasted on a failed cause, when he could have contributed so much to the field of mathematics, in order to help science and society. Instead of that, he is currently incarcerated at USP Florence ADMAX, serving eight life sentences without the possibility of parole. Good luck to him in changing the world for the better.

Right now, the only readily available method to protect ourselves are those vaccines you so very much despise, made by those corrupt companies. I wish I could make my own ethical company to make them myself, but I can't. I can only use the only method available to protect myself, and that is the vaccines. As science and technology advances, and more effective and better treatments become available, I will use them instead.

I hope this is now clearer.

[Torque]

Let me put it this way, so that my point becomes clearer:

Suppose that a heart surgeon is corrupt, but he is the only heart surgeon available to operate on me. If I have a serious heart condition, I will have no choice but to visit that doctor. I don't like him, but it's my only option for an operation. I won't need to be friends with him. I won't need to hang out with him. I just want him to operate on me and save me. I will simply use his services. I could choose not to visit him and wait at home until a more ethical surgeon becomes available. Would that be a wise choice? You answer that.

Go under the knife with a corrupt heart surgeon, even if he was the only one available? No I would not, as any sane person would not, and you are crazy in your bent justification. Your mental gymnastics are truly incredible to behold.

Now that I know that you are batshit insane, I'm done having this conversation with you. I'm done. Especially now it's Monday and you still seem to have all this time to type a bunch of emotional nonsense, but still refuse to answer any of my questions about vaccine EFFECTIVENESS with any actual science data.

Good luck with your fifty thousand jabs and boosters. I hope you don't die or have any side effects.

/ignore

[AlcoHoDL]

Let me put it this way, so that my point becomes clearer:

Suppose that a heart surgeon is corrupt, but he is the only heart surgeon available to operate on me. If I have a serious heart condition, I will have no choice but to visit that doctor. I don't like him, but it's my only option for an operation. I won't need to be friends with him. I won't need to hang out with him. I just want him to operate on me and save me. I will simply use his services. I could choose not to visit him and wait at home until a more ethical surgeon becomes available. Would that be a wise choice? You answer that.

No I would not, as any sane person would not, and you are crazy in your bent justification. Your mental gymnastics are truly incredible to behold.

Now that I know that you are batshit insane, I'm done having this conversation with you. I'm done. Especially since you seem to  have all this time to type a bunch of emotional nonsense, but still refuse to answer of my questions about vaccine EFFECTIVENESS with any actual science data.

Good luck with your fifty thousand jabs and boosters. I hope you don't die or have any side effects.

/ignore

Next time you go out shopping, or use any product, service, technology, medical help, or take any type of medicine, make absolutely sure to fully research the ethics of the companies behind those goods and services you're about to use. Be VERY prepared to be SURPRISED by the results.

If you fully and truly believe and respect your grandiose ethics, you should be a man about it, abandon everything in civilized society and go live in a cave, animal skin for clothes, stones for tools, the works. A proper cave-man. Just don't return to society crying like a little sissy whenever you feel a pain in your body or you catch a cold. No medicine for you, those pharmaceutical companies are so corrupt, how dare you put those poisons in your body. Better pray to Karhu for help.

Good luck waking up.