The Lightning Network node experience

[WZBcoin]

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Many thanks for your observation and the recommendation... I'm doing that straight away.
Best regards

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[darkv0rt3x]

This year has been quiet for me. I was over 2 months without forwarding any payment.

January


February


March and April -- 0 forwardings

I did a few this month. Will update when it's over!

As for rebalancing, I've been talking to me channel peers and asking them if they are willing to share the fees for rebalancing our channels! Some have been completely cooperative, some not. But still, even with other peers willing to share fees, I'm not sure if the fees I collect are on the green to cover the fees for rebalancing!

[n0nce]

This year has been quiet for me. I was over 2 months without forwarding any payment.

Mostly the same here, as well. In part it's due to some peers closing channels, so I have some on-chain balance on my node now. If you want, we could actually open a channel.
Are you running Core Lightning? In that case, we could even dual-fund..

[darkv0rt3x]

This year has been quiet for me. I was over 2 months without forwarding any payment.

Mostly the same here, as well. In part it's due to some peers closing channels, so I have some on-chain balance on my node now. If you want, we could actually open a channel.
Are you running Core Lightning? In that case, we could even dual-fund..

Hi... I didn't notice your reply.
Yeah sure, we can open a channel but I actually have to either try to re-eanble the dev features (I'm still on that v23.0.5-modded) and I had to disable those features because I waas getting buggy messages and couldn't connect to more than half of my peers!
How much you have available?

BTW, this is my May experience:

[n0nce]

How much you have available?

How about 1M per side?

BTW, this is my May experience:

Nice, I got such a 'middle finger' shape towards the end of the month, as well..

[darkv0rt3x]

How much you have available?

How about 1M per side?

BTW, this is my May experience:

Nice, I got such a 'middle finger' shape towards the end of the month, as well..

Yeah, I can do a 1M channel. But will do it tomorrow, ok? It's late here and I'm heading to bed now!
We will arrange this during the day of tomorrow!

heheh, the midle finger pattern... Didn't even noticed it! xD

[n0nce]

Yeah, I can do a 1M channel. But will do it tomorrow, ok? It's late here and I'm heading to bed now!
We will arrange this during the day of tomorrow!

Sure, that works. Let's do dual-fund, 1M each, that will result in a pretty good total capacity of 2M sats. You can message me whenever you have time.

[darkv0rt3x]

Yeah, I can do a 1M channel. But will do it tomorrow, ok? It's late here and I'm heading to bed now!
We will arrange this during the day of tomorrow!

Sure, that works. Let's do dual-fund, 1M each, that will result in a pretty good total capacity of 2M sats. You can message me whenever you have time.

I sent some funds to my LN node yesterday but I might have chosen a low fee and it may take a while! The fee chosen was 6sats/vByte! It's quite low due to the crap of Ordinals and Inscriptions and all that garbage!

[darkv0rt3x]

@n0nce, I'm actually doing something shady with the help of someone to try to speed up this transaction that I broadcast from Relai (no RBF implementation) to my CLN node.
I'm trying to do a CPFP transaction with higher fee to see if I can get both in a block sooner!

[Cricktor]

What exactly is shady to speed up a transaction with too low fee? In my opinion there's nothing wrong with that. It's your change output and you can do with it whatever you like. Actually more interesting is why you've chosen such a low fee of 6 sat/vB with current mempool congestion. When I read your posts from Thursday, I had to scratch my head a little bit. 

[darkv0rt3x]

What exactly is shady to speed up a transaction with too low fee? In my opinion there's nothing wrong with that. It's your change output and you can do with it whatever you like. Actually more interesting is why you've chosen such a low fee of 6 sat/vB with current mempool congestion. When I read your posts from Thursday, I had to scratch my head a little bit. 

I did a CPFP transaction but instead of using change, I used the output itself. yeah, it was shady to me because I never used CPFP transactions, didn't know how they worked in practice and it was a first time to me.
But I had to use an external plugin to get the private keys out of CLN as descriptors, then, create a file with these descriptors, import them in my Bitcoin Core node, rescan part of the blockchain and only then I performed the CPFP transaction. After that, I still had to run a rescan in my CLN node so that it detect the 1st transaction as already spent! Otherwise, CLN would "see" twice the value.

[Flexystar]

My node has successfully routed 143 payments (until the 31st October) with ~0.09 BTC capacity and 5 active channels. Here's a breakdown of my earnings from payment routing into each month:

Hey fellas, read through the thread but I’m not sure if I understand what’s payment routing and how you guys are making money out of it. Is there any step by step guide on how to set up this and run it on a PC.

1. I have a pc which I can keep running 24x7
2. Do I need any sort of mining equipment, if yes then what’s for the LN?
3. Am I right to think that it is peer to peer based system, through this system I become a middle connector and get paid for forwarding the payments?

If there is ready thread on how to perform above actions then I would be grateful if a link is shared for the same. I saw another thread from the OP but that was again above my head. Basically I have zero idea about this so guidance is appreciated. 

[n0nce]

My node has successfully routed 143 payments (until the 31st October) with ~0.09 BTC capacity and 5 active channels. Here's a breakdown of my earnings from payment routing into each month:

Hey fellas, read through the thread but I’m not sure if I understand what’s payment routing and how you guys are making money out of it. Is there any step by step guide on how to set up this and run it on a PC.

The Lightning Network is a... network... of bidirectional payment channels. Visualizing that looks something like this:



To be able to send BTC through Lightning to another user, without opening a direct channel to them, you need to utilize routing.
'Routing' in this context means that a Lightning node operator receives a payment from your node through one channel and simultaneously sends a payment of the same amount out through a different channel. Chain that as many times as required until the intended receiver got the money and you've got a Lightning payment.

Since we provide a service which requires an always running computer and funds stored in channels (hot wallets), we have costs and provide value; therefore we can choose to ask users for fees in return for routing their payments. Their wallet can / should try to find the cheapest routes, but usually you do need to pay a few sats per payment to reach a 'far' (many hops) destination.

1. I have a pc which I can keep running 24x7

If you want to route payments, you do need a 24/7 running PC, yes. It can be a cheap old beater, though, as shown here: [Guide] How to run a Bitcoin Core full node for under 50 bucks!

2. Do I need any sort of mining equipment, if yes then what’s for the LN?

No, there is no mining taking place.

3. Am I right to think that it is peer to peer based system, through this system I become a middle connector and get paid for forwarding the payments?

That's correct. More reading here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5158920.0

If there is ready thread on how to perform above actions then I would be grateful if a link is shared for the same. I saw another thread from the OP but that was again above my head. Basically I have zero idea about this so guidance is appreciated. 

If you want to start from scratch, I have this regularly updated guide:
[Guide] FULL NODE OpenSUSE 15.3: bitcoind + electrs + c-lightning + RTL

[Flexystar]

My node has successfully routed 143 payments (until the 31st October) with ~0.09 BTC capacity and 5 active channels. Here's a breakdown of my earnings from payment routing into each month:

Hey fellas, read through the thread but I’m not sure if I understand what’s payment routing and how you guys are making money out of it. Is there any step by step guide on how to set up this and run it on a PC.

The Lightning Network is a... network... of bidirectional payment channels. Visualizing that looks something like this:
[...]

1. I have a pc which I can keep running 24x7

If you want to route payments, you do need a 24/7 running PC, yes. It can be a cheap old beater, though, as shown here: [Guide] How to run a Bitcoin Core full node for under 50 bucks!

2. Do I need any sort of mining equipment, if yes then what’s for the LN?

No, there is no mining taking place.

3. Am I right to think that it is peer to peer based system, through this system I become a middle connector and get paid for forwarding the payments?

That's correct. More reading here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5158920.0

If there is ready thread on how to perform above actions then I would be grateful if a link is shared for the same. I saw another thread from the OP but that was again above my head. Basically I have zero idea about this so guidance is appreciated. 

If you want to start from scratch, I have this regularly updated guide:
[Guide] FULL NODE OpenSUSE 15.3: bitcoind + electrs + c-lightning + RTL

The message from you is so clear and right on the point. Thank you very much for sharing everything. Specially the last thread is very important. Looking at the configuration I am already set with the old laptop which is laying around doing nothing. I think I can really use it as my playground and start doing some serious stuff on it.

One point I read about hot wallet and how it could get buggy and funds may get stolen, do I need to have antivirus software or something which can block such external access or it's just nothing about that?

In your full node thread you have mentioned about 4 different software that is Bitcoin Core, ElectRS, C-lightening, Ride the lightening. Putting yourself at my position and thinking I am completely stranger to the set up, which one would you chose to get started with? [ in terms of complexity of set up]

[Synchronice]

To be able to send BTC through Lightning to another user, without opening a direct channel to them, you need to utilize routing.
'Routing' in this context means that a Lightning node operator receives a payment from your node through one channel and simultaneously sends a payment of the same amount out through a different channel. Chain that as many times as required until the intended receiver got the money and you've got a Lightning payment.

Since we provide a service which requires an always running computer and funds stored in channels (hot wallets), we have costs and provide value; therefore we can choose to ask users for fees in return for routing their payments. Their wallet can / should try to find the cheapest routes, but usually you do need to pay a few sats per payment to reach a 'far' (many hops) destination.

Can you "cash out" bitcoins received via Lighting Network without closing the channel? How long can you leave the LN channel open? As far as I know, when you use LN, you only pay traditional mempool fees when you close the channel and I was wondering, what if I don't close the channel (Will it close automatically?), will I still be able to cash out my coins?
Btw how much do you charge? Do you have a certain ratio, like, charge 1/10 of mempool fees?

[darkv0rt3x]

To be able to send BTC through Lightning to another user, without opening a direct channel to them, you need to utilize routing.
'Routing' in this context means that a Lightning node operator receives a payment from your node through one channel and simultaneously sends a payment of the same amount out through a different channel. Chain that as many times as required until the intended receiver got the money and you've got a Lightning payment.

Since we provide a service which requires an always running computer and funds stored in channels (hot wallets), we have costs and provide value; therefore we can choose to ask users for fees in return for routing their payments. Their wallet can / should try to find the cheapest routes, but usually you do need to pay a few sats per payment to reach a 'far' (many hops) destination.

Can you "cash out" bitcoins received via Lighting Network without closing the channel?

No. All Bitcoin locked in LN can only be transacted offchain using the channel balance. The only way to cash out is to close the channel. This is because there are only 2 transactions hitting the blockchain. The one used to open the channel and the one used to close the channel. All intermediary transactions will happen inside the channel without ever touching the blockchain.

By cash out, I understand to convert Bitcoin back to fiat!

To be able to send BTC through Lightning to another user, without opening a direct channel to them, you need to utilize routing.
'Routing' in this context means that a Lightning node operator receives a payment from your node through one channel and simultaneously sends a payment of the same amount out through a different channel. Chain that as many times as required until the intended receiver got the money and you've got a Lightning payment.

Since we provide a service which requires an always running computer and funds stored in channels (hot wallets), we have costs and provide value; therefore we can choose to ask users for fees in return for routing their payments. Their wallet can / should try to find the cheapest routes, but usually you do need to pay a few sats per payment to reach a 'far' (many hops) destination.

How long can you leave the LN channel open? As far as I know, when you use LN, you only pay traditional mempool fees when you close the channel and I was wondering, what if I don't close the channel (Will it close automatically?), will I still be able to cash out my coins?
Btw how much do you charge? Do you have a certain ratio, like, charge 1/10 of mempool fees?

LN channels can be open as long as the 2 peers want. This is the short answer.
Channels don't close on their own unless one or two very specific scenarios. Force closes / unilateral closes or a situation where a peer tries to cheat the other. Can't remember other situations where you can get channels closed without you requesting so.

About the fees:
You have 2 scenarios: onchain (Bitcoin transactions) and offchain (LN transactions).
Regarding fees, you also have 2 scenarios: onchain fees or network fees and offline fees or routing fees or payment fees or whatever you want to call it.
Online fees depends on a few factors, for instance the size of the transaction, the mempool congestion (meaning that the more transactions in the mempool, higher the fees will become). Onchain transactions also kinda obeys to free market rules. So, they can be higher today, lower tomorrow, etc, depening on the demand!

Offline fees or the fees in the LN depends also on a few factors such as the length of the path chosen and the fee settings of each routing node! But this is an whole other chapter! You also need to DYOR!

Once more, you can only cash out Bitcoin back to fiat of online transactions. A channel open must be closed so that you can cash out the Bitcoin once locked in that channel!

[Synchronice]

LN channels can be open as long as the 2 peers want. This is the short answer.
Channels don't close on their own unless one or two very specific scenarios. Force closes / unilateral closes or a situation where a peer tries to cheat the other. Can't remember other situations where you can get channels closed without you requesting so.

I don't understand this well:

To be able to send BTC through Lightning to another user, without opening a direct channel to them, you need to utilize routing.
'Routing' in this context means that a Lightning node operator receives a payment from your node through one channel and simultaneously sends a payment of the same amount out through a different channel. Chain that as many times as required until the intended receiver got the money and you've got a Lightning payment.

So, I can make LN payments without opening a channel for each person I want to pay if utilize channel routing, right? So, is this like, one person opens a channel with some funds and lets other people to use his channel for payments? Do I understand correctly? If that's right, then do I have to wait for that person to close LN channel to cash out my coins (convert into fiat or use as I wish).

[darkv0rt3x]

LN channels can be open as long as the 2 peers want. This is the short answer.
Channels don't close on their own unless one or two very specific scenarios. Force closes / unilateral closes or a situation where a peer tries to cheat the other. Can't remember other situations where you can get channels closed without you requesting so.

I don't understand this well:

To be able to send BTC through Lightning to another user, without opening a direct channel to them, you need to utilize routing.
'Routing' in this context means that a Lightning node operator receives a payment from your node through one channel and simultaneously sends a payment of the same amount out through a different channel. Chain that as many times as required until the intended receiver got the money and you've got a Lightning payment.

So, I can make LN payments without opening a channel for each person I want to pay if utilize channel routing, right? So, is this like, one person opens a channel with some funds and lets other people to use his channel for payments? Do I understand correctly? If that's right, then do I have to wait for that person to close LN channel to cash out my coins (convert into fiat or use as I wish).

I didn't understand what you didn't understand.

Regarding making payments without opening channels to every peer you need to pay, yes. You can use 3rd party services, wallets in this case an use their nodes and the nodes in the network to make your payments to get to their destinations.

Yes, node's operators let other people use teir channels to route payments until their destinations.
So, if you use a LN wallet and receive a payment of let's say 500k sats in that wallet, that wallet must support the conversion of those 500k sats offchain to 500k sats (less fees) to onchain. And then, yes, you can cash out to fiat using other means such as exchanges!

But I have the feeling you are not doing any research on your own. Also, this thread should not be used to discuss LN details. It should be used for users to share their experiences regarding fees collected and other experiences.You have this thread that you can read and learn a lot from it:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5158920.0

Maybe some mod could move these last posts into that thread!

[n0nce]

One point I read about hot wallet and how it could get buggy and funds may get stolen, do I need to have antivirus software or something which can block such external access or it's just nothing about that?

You don't really need to worry about that, especially if you follow my guide and run all that software on a fresh, up-to-date Linux system and don't do other things on it (especially risky stuff like plugging in random USB drives found on the street or downloading pirated files).

In your full node thread you have mentioned about 4 different software that is Bitcoin Core, ElectRS, C-lightening, Ride the lightening. Putting yourself at my position and thinking I am completely stranger to the set up, which one would you chose to get started with? [ in terms of complexity of set up]

Those are basically all needed. Just install one-by-one following the guide from top to bottom. If you have more questions about it, feel free to post them over there. In case you think they are specific just to your setup / situation, you can also write me direct messages.

To be able to send BTC through Lightning to another user, without opening a direct channel to them, you need to utilize routing.
'Routing' in this context means that a Lightning node operator receives a payment from your node through one channel and simultaneously sends a payment of the same amount out through a different channel. Chain that as many times as required until the intended receiver got the money and you've got a Lightning payment.

Since we provide a service which requires an always running computer and funds stored in channels (hot wallets), we have costs and provide value; therefore we can choose to ask users for fees in return for routing their payments. Their wallet can / should try to find the cheapest routes, but usually you do need to pay a few sats per payment to reach a 'far' (many hops) destination.

Can you "cash out" bitcoins received via Lighting Network without closing the channel?

No. All Bitcoin locked in LN can only be transacted offchain using the channel balance. The only way to cash out is to close the channel.

There is one exception, namely submarine swaps. The high-level idea is that you send Bitcoin in the LN to someone who then sends you the same amount (minus a small fee for providing this service) on-chain. The beauty in the implementation of this is that the two payments are 'linked' by design, i.e. one cannot take place without the other one taking place. Neither party can 'take the other party's money and run'.

Btw how much do you charge? Do you have a certain ratio, like, charge 1/10 of mempool fees?

There are two settings for fees: a base fee and a relative fee. Relative relates to the transaction amount, though and not to the mempool. Most payments cost about a handful of sats for the whole route, though.

Once more, you can only cash out Bitcoin back to fiat of online transactions. A channel open must be closed so that you can cash out the Bitcoin once locked in that channel!

That's not really true; you can use a Lightning to fiat exchange like [Review] Robosats Bitcoin Lightning on-/off-ramp (no KYC, P2P, Tor) or if you prefer centralized ones, Kraken and others nowadays offer Lightning deposits, too.

[Flexystar]

One point I read about hot wallet and how it could get buggy and funds may get stolen, do I need to have antivirus software or something which can block such external access or it's just nothing about that?

You don't really need to worry about that, especially if you follow my guide and run all that software on a fresh, up-to-date Linux system and don't do other things on it (especially risky stuff like plugging in random USB drives found on the street or downloading pirated files).

In your full node thread you have mentioned about 4 different software that is Bitcoin Core, ElectRS, C-lightening, Ride the lightening. Putting yourself at my position and thinking I am completely stranger to the set up, which one would you chose to get started with? [ in terms of complexity of set up]

Those are basically all needed. Just install one-by-one following the guide from top to bottom. If you have more questions about it, feel free to post them over there. In case you think they are specific just to your setup / situation, you can also write me direct messages.

Great to know that. I am definitlly going to end up in lot of discussion. I already saw that thread and the codes you guys have posted went like tangent over my head. 
But why not try it out and see how it goes.

And no I am not even plugging any random USB so far on my regular laptop so I am pretty sure that we are good on that front and I don't end up injecting virus over the entire LN chain. 

Lot of homework to be done on single and dual funded channels, splicing and channel factories.  Yes I think I will have lot of discussion with you once I get started for real. Thanks mate.