The Lightning Network node experience

[darkv0rt3x]

There are two settings for fees: a base fee and a relative fee. Relative relates to the transaction amount, though and not to the mempool. Most payments cost about a handful of sats for the whole route, though.

Once more, you can only cash out Bitcoin back to fiat of online transactions. A channel open must be closed so that you can cash out the Bitcoin once locked in that channel!

That's not really true; you can use a Lightning to fiat exchange like [Review] Robosats Bitcoin Lightning on-/off-ramp (no KYC, P2P, Tor) or if you prefer centralized ones, Kraken and others nowadays offer Lightning deposits, too.

Oh yes... I forgot those because I was thinking only in the point of view of a node operator! But yes, you are absolutely right. Sorry for missing those options that are the closest to pure p2p bitcoin trading in the sense of buying and selling anonymously!

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[darkv0rt3x]

This month was quite active for my node. 33 events made it one of the best months or maybe the best month since I run the node. However, I have the feeling that most of the routed payments were also rebalances as response to my own rebalances, if I make myself understand.

I mean, it happened over and onver again that after I perform a rebalance, in the next day or so, all the amount used in that rebalance was already in other side of the same or eventually other channels!
I did quite a few rebalances and it always happened, so I gave up and decided to change some fees in some of my channels to try to make outgoing channels, incoming, and vice-versa!

[darkv0rt3x]

Once more I'm showing my results for the last few months.

For July, I had a special situation and I didn't forward a single payment. This situation still remains but with a few changes. The situation is that my node shouldd probably be in some "dark place" of the LN graph and therefore, I only have one channel that is taking payments "in". If it happens that this channel gets all liquidity on my side, I cannot get any payments coming "in". That was what happened in July. I made an experience of not rebalancing this channel and tried to lower the fees in all other channels to see if the liquidity would change sides globally in my channels. It simply didn't happened. Maybe I should have lowered even more the fees.

Anyway, in August I end up rebalancing this channel and one other "major" event took place. The node operator of this channel, started a second LN node and we opened another channel. Now, we can rebalance our 2 channels for free and not only I was able to circulate some sats in oppsite directions between these 2 channels, meaning that some "auto-rebalance" took place. Good news...  

Here are my earning for August. July is not here because, as I said, there were no routings at all.

[darkv0rt3x]

Another month, another improvement. But I also paid quite a few sats in rebalancing. Probably it was almost the same as I got from forwarding payments! Never tracked how much I spent in fees for rebalancing channels!

[shortveggie]

Another month, another improvement. But I also paid quite a few sats in rebalancing. Probably it was almost the same as I got from forwarding payments! Never tracked how much I spent in fees for rebalancing channels!

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/10/06/PlwK9.png

Congratulations.. rebalancing is costly. Channels should be chosen so that manual rebalancing isn't necessary and balancing happens naturall but it's possible that it's required to have multiple larger channels to achieve that

[joker_josue]

Another month, another improvement. But I also paid quite a few sats in rebalancing. Probably it was almost the same as I got from forwarding payments! Never tracked how much I spent in fees for rebalancing channels!

What program are you using to do this monitoring?
Or better yet, what program are you using to run the LN node?

[darkv0rt3x]

Another month, another improvement. But I also paid quite a few sats in rebalancing. Probably it was almost the same as I got from forwarding payments! Never tracked how much I spent in fees for rebalancing channels!

What program are you using to do this monitoring?
Or better yet, what program are you using to run the LN node?

I am running Core Lightning implementation of the Lightning Network and those pictures are from a fron-end for the node which is called RTL or Ride The Lightning.
I never tried LND which is another LN implementation and I don't want. I'm very happy with Core Lightning aka CLN.

[joker_josue]

I am running Core Lightning implementation of the Lightning Network and those pictures are from a fron-end for the node which is called RTL or Ride The Lightning.
I never tried LND which is another LN implementation and I don't want. I'm very happy with Core Lightning aka CLN.

From a quick look at the project website, it seemed to me that they don't have any version for Windows. Or am I mistaken?

[Cricktor]

...

From a quick look at the project website, it seemed to me that they don't have any version for Windows. Or am I mistaken?

Your citation from darkv0rt3x speaks of multiple software: CLN, RTL and LND. To which of those three are you asking for a Windows version?

A Lightning node is a hot wallet. I don't think it's the wisest decission to run it on Windows, a platform that is likely the main target for all sorts of malware, mainly due to its large user base and market share.

Maybe you didn't mean the Lightning node, we can't know, you weren't specific enough.

[joker_josue]

...

From a quick look at the project website, it seemed to me that they don't have any version for Windows. Or am I mistaken?

Your citation from darkv0rt3x speaks of multiple software: CLN, RTL and LND. To which of those three are you asking for a Windows version?

I was thinking about CLN.
But, I will analyze the other options, which have a Windows version. If there isn't, no problem...

[BlackHatCoiner]

From a quick look at the project website, it seemed to me that they don't have any version for Windows. Or am I mistaken?

Yes, it is compiled in Linux. So, get yourself a WSL if your machine runs on Windows: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install. I don't believe there's any way to run that software in Windows elsewhere, probably only with lightning Electrum?

A Lightning node is a hot wallet. I don't think it's the wisest decission to run it on Windows, a platform that is likely the main target for all sorts of malware, mainly due to its large user base and market share.

Linux is pretty much everywhere nowadays, so that isn't the reason. Windows are just known to suffer from more vulnerabilities than Linux, probably because they are closed-source since their launch.

[joker_josue]

From a quick look at the project website, it seemed to me that they don't have any version for Windows. Or am I mistaken?

Yes, it is compiled in Linux. So, get yourself a WSL if your machine runs on Windows: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install. I don't believe there's any way to run that software in Windows elsewhere, probably only with lightning Electrum?

I want to try to avoid using this solution. I'll try to look for something that works on Windows. There must be something.
In fact, I already did some brief research, and it seemed to me that there was something.

[DaveF]

Kind of a necro bump but wondering if anyone else running a node is getting 1 sat transactions with messages attached to them?









I am guessing they are scraping websites and looking for payment requests because it started when I posted this about 1 month ago in another thread:

...

This is a repayment for 0 sats TO ME you should be able to add whatever amount you want:



If you can't scan the QR:

Code:

lnbc1pj7a6s4pp5s9yuq6tz05324wha0lnx8rn8hx3kk7gdxafmvv73ctc2al8xjjxqdqv23jhxapqxysqcqzzsxqyjw5qsp5gnqsgxpkqqwkl4mgtkvj3qjxyujlfs8aysz23dgsdypjnjza7srs9qyyssq7acrduv9duynhahph2k3cremcjrucf6mr7mkq4p9m7hjpcnfwavs4l59g09rjz778s2f04lcwknq6h9mp8fzs5fnv8fvye4jwmcrdcspl9cl7f

This is a repayment of 200 sats:

Code:

lnbc2u1pj7a6kcpp5qyl3gm9fnfqj4wuc2ep09u7v32af9vw32k9z0vsgyrr8nreyq4sqdquxgcrqgzng92zq5n9wpshjmt9de6qcqzzsxqyjw5qsp5gp5fhuexjgusvjyf792pewzkv8hyf907wfek4kpt3p9xza9mqh8q9qyyssqmdhmvttgzkjkdxjwa6kr7kfmce7c54f9x7ps0lvpx2ewljzc4g0r3us03srv02nmamxuzr0ytvqep5d8fudj85swfue8lzhvry5d2jqq9pu3nh

...

Or am I missing something else as to how people are doing it?

-Dave

[BlackHatCoiner]

Kind of a necro bump but wondering if anyone else running a node is getting 1 sat transactions with messages attached to them?

Yes, it's due to Satogram, a kind-of ad broadcaster that reaches nearly the entire lightning network.

Or am I missing something else as to how people are doing it?

They don't need an invoice to send you satoshi. Anyone can send you satoshi over lightning by just having your node ID and keysend. If you're running LND, you can disable receiving that way with "accept-amp=false".

I wouldn't do it, if I were you. Just like email spam, but you're getting paid. 

[DaveF]

Kind of a necro bump but wondering if anyone else running a node is getting 1 sat transactions with messages attached to them?

Yes, it's due to Satogram, a kind-of ad broadcaster that reaches nearly the entire lightning network.

Or am I missing something else as to how people are doing it?

They don't need an invoice to send you satoshi. Anyone can send you satoshi over lightning by just having your node ID and keysend. If you're running LND, you can disable receiving that way with "accept-amp=false".

I wouldn't do it, if I were you. Just like email spam, but you're getting paid.  

I *thought* "accept-amp=false" was the default. Which was why I figured it came from the invoice.

From: https://docs.lightning.engineering/lightning-network-tools/lnd/optimal-configuration-of-a-routing-node

Communication

Node runners may notify each other of issues they see when opening channels or forwarding payments. To be able to receive keysend messages, the following must be set.

accept-keysend=true # (default: false)
accept-amp=true # (default: false)

I do not have an easy way to dig into that node at the moment.
Will have to check when I get home.

Not a big deal, but that was why I was running with the invoice theory.

-Dave

[darkv0rt3x]

Long time no posting here, but here it goes:

October 2023


November 2023


December 2023


January 2024


February 2024


March

[joker_josue]

Long time no posting here, but here it goes:

You had excellent movement in January and February, compared to other months.
Did you find any explanation for this, or was it just a coincidence?

[Cricktor]

I had this question, too, and more. Oktober 2023 wasn't bad either, while seemingly out of nothing March '24 plummets deeply.

darkv0rt3x said earlier that he doesn't unfortunately keep track of expenses for rebalancing. I would really like to know if there's a correlation between effort to rebalance and if it pays off with more routing fees. And particularly if you don't have to spend more for rebalancing as you get in return for collecting routing fees, obviously.

Another of my personal details of interest is change in number of channels and channel size. Has there been any substantial changes which resulted in the increase of routing fees?

However, I would completely understand if darkv0rt3x prefers not to make such details public.


Meanwhile, in late 2023 I closed my few own managed channels of my RaspiBlitz LND node. For some time my channels served me the purpose I opened them for. I had some personal usage and I wanted to experiment a little and see if and how I could manage coin flow for rebalancing purposes. It didn't work out well enough. I'm sure it were too few channels, too small size of channels and with too few channel partners you would have to be exceptionally lucky to have chosen channel partners that could provide you lots of routing opportunities. I knew I couldn't expect any good traffic despite my own transfer needs.

I take the learning experience with me which I don't want to miss. I'm sure I still don't understand quite some settings, especially to enhance and support coin flow in desirable direction for as cheap as possible channel rebalancing. (My experience with circular payments was almost always a too expensive one, compared to return of interest through subsequent routing.)

My experiment had limits and I didn't want to lock more than a few million sats of liquidity for it. I don't complain...

[NotATether]

Kind of a necro bump but wondering if anyone else running a node is getting 1 sat transactions with messages attached to them?

Yes, it's due to Satogram, a kind-of ad broadcaster that reaches nearly the entire lightning network.

Yes, it is well-documented elsewhere how I've been getting these too.

Or am I missing something else as to how people are doing it?

They don't need an invoice to send you satoshi. Anyone can send you satoshi over lightning by just having your node ID and keysend. If you're running LND, you can disable receiving that way with "accept-amp=false".

I wouldn't do it, if I were you. Just like email spam, but you're getting paid. 

Getting paid $0.00064 per ad on a not-so-recurring basis when you only get 3 or 4 of these per month literally does not even make a penny at these prices. I might as well just run with accept-amp=false because I would not take any email spam in my inbox even if I was somehow paid a tiny amount to leave it there.

By the way, what does the amp even stand for?

[darkv0rt3x]

Long time no posting here, but here it goes:

You had excellent movement in January and February, compared to other months.
Did you find any explanation for this, or was it just a coincidence?

I didn't do anything special other than closing and opening new channels and also playing with fees. But I also don't keep track of how many sats I spend in rebalancing. If I'm on the green, it's just barelly because rebalancing is expensive and you only get the feeling of how much you should set your fees for the green after you know how much you spend in rebalancing. Meaning that for instance, if I open a channel with 2M sats and those sats "travel" to the other peer, I know how many sats I earn with the channel but I only know if those sats are enough after I know how much I spent in rebalancing. So, this is always a not very fair game, at least for smaller nodes like mine.

A few weeks ago I opened a 2M sats channel with some peer. Most of that outbound liquidity travelled to the other peer in a couple of days. I didn't check how much I earned in fees but yesterday I pushed 200k sats to this channel again (from one other channel) and I know I spent 121 sats. I raised the fees a bit to 0 sats base fee and 390 ppm (or something like that) .Those 200k sats already moved again to the other peer and I only earned aroun 76 sats. So, I know, I lost  a bit. Now, I've raised the ppm a bit further to 420 ppm and will try to rebalance again! I know I'll be on the red but, it's a long learning/playing proccess!

This month of April I know I'm not very bad because I am with 3.6k sats of fees! Probably I spent like less than 2k sats in rebalancing!