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Author Topic: PoW vs PoS  (Read 837 times)
BlackHatCoiner
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December 20, 2021, 06:12:02 PM
 #101

PoW will have to be banned by every country , no country has the resources to power 2 earths worth of energy drain.
Have you checked the carbon footprint of the current financial system? You keep trying to convince us that PoW is so futile, but fail due to lack of valid arguments. You also choose to support PoS by degrading PoW. And I repeat:  It has a strong reliance on renewable sources in contrast with almost everything else. That's due to the incentive of the miners to get away their expenses.

In other words, the system incentivizes you to not harm the environment for the common good.

Because by having a financial incentive to run a full node, you guarantee that every transaction since the genesis block is attainable by anyone.
But, why should there be a financial reward for this? Isn't your business to want or not want to confirm you have the correct chain; to verify the transactions? The reward for your contribution is the privacy you gain. Why should you make others' fortune less scarce for this (mainly) personal procedure?

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TangentC
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December 21, 2021, 06:14:01 AM
 #102

PoW will have to be banned by every country , no country has the resources to power 2 earths worth of energy drain.
Have you checked the carbon footprint of the current financial system? You keep trying to convince us that PoW is so futile, but fail due to lack of valid arguments. You also choose to support PoS by degrading PoW. And I repeat:  It has a strong reliance on renewable sources in contrast with almost everything else. That's due to the incentive of the miners to get away their expenses.

In other words, the system incentivizes you to not harm the environment for the common good.

Because by having a financial incentive to run a full node, you guarantee that every transaction since the genesis block is attainable by anyone.
But, why should there be a financial reward for this? Isn't your business to want or not want to confirm you have the correct chain; to verify the transactions? The reward for your contribution is the privacy you gain. Why should you make others' fortune less scarce for this (mainly) personal procedure?


You know drinking the btc cultist kool-aid is making you a nutjob.  Kiss

Keep ignoring the countries that ban Proof of Waste, it still will occur,
be sure and post when any country bans a Bank for threatening their power grid, until then realize your btc cult think is irrelevant in this reality.  Smiley

Why should miners make all of the money in Proof of Waste, when only the rich can be miners.
In Proof of Stake , everyone that participates in staking can secure and profit from the network.
In your Proof of Waste only rich elites that can afford muti-million $$$$ warehouses that waste energy with zero increase in btc performance or security,
if you prefer that , go ahead and slap a slave sticker on your back and wander the streets begging a rich person to be your master.  Tongue

 
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December 21, 2021, 06:54:40 AM
 #103

i think i get it

tangentc is just jealous that some people work and put effort in and get rewarded for those efforts, and he just cant cope with not getting paid for doing nothing, so wants to fight and argue that bitcoin should change and reward leachers that dont offer anything to bitcoins security.

what he does not realise is in proof of stake, there is still only a set number of blocks made a day and only a set amount of reward per block. if a PoS coin actually became useful to a wide userbase, where the coin attained value. those 'stakes' no longer allow everyone to get paid.
(too many people fighting over limited slices of pie)

instead only a few hundred 'stakes' out of millions would get paid a day.
where those few hundred 'stakes' would be the ones with the highest value(rich/elite) stake in play.

leaving millions of average joe without a chance... basically the exchanges, with their cold store hoard would control the PoS coin network

thus creating the same paradigm tangentc cries about when he cries about the elitism of miners.

what he does not realise is that the elitism is not to do with asics or electric. its due to the popularity of the coin by having so many people wanting some, but so little opportunity to get some via the block creation process, whether it be pow or pos.

so far pos coins are crap coins so dont have much of a community to display this fight over the slices of pie. although some coins are showing that exchanges are doing alot of the block creation process and many small holders never get a chance.

if bitcoin did change to PoS, the elitism would not disappear. but what would disappear is bitcoins value.
after all if everyone could mine gold in their back yard for $1 using a spoon and a coffee filter, everyone would sell it for $2 to 2x profit. gold would not be worth over $1k.

bitcoins value is based on the acquisition costs. no one wants to sell at a loss.
pos coins have no 'cost' so anyone getting it would sell at any price. especially if everyone was able to get it for free.

but hey, tangentc does not care about value. nor security which would cost an attacker billions to fight to break the security. all he cares about is trying to get his hands on some free pie, no matter the consequence

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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December 21, 2021, 07:39:36 AM
 #104

PoW is supposed to create equal. People in favor of the coin could contribute computation to get rewarded. PoS works by people staking their coin, no need to buy hardware for mining.
Both of them had pros and cons, but in terms of energy consumption, POS is more environment friendly.
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December 21, 2021, 07:51:38 AM
 #105

You know drinking the btc cultist kool-aid is making you a nutjob.
When someone tries to have a dialogue with you, don't discourage them this way.

Keep ignoring the countries that ban Proof of Waste, it still will occur
So is this all you have to say? Come on man, seriously.

be sure and post when any country bans a Bank for threatening their power grid
A country? To ban a bank? Nah. Besides, banks are by nature, PoS. When did any government or bank announce their appreciation towards bitcoin during the last 13 years? And yet, it's #1. So, I guess the throng's opinion matters too.

Why should miners make all of the money in Proof of Waste, when only the rich can be miners.
I know people, more or less rich than I am who don't have money to stake the required amount and the yield return isn't that profitable at all. They mine bitcoin.

In Proof of Stake , everyone that participates in staking can secure and profit from the network.
That's false. As I said, not every person has the required amount of money to stake. By the same reasoning, everyone can participate in mining too.

In your Proof of Waste only rich elites that can afford muti-million $$$$ warehouses
Says a supporter of a PoS cryptocurrency in which the 1% of its users own the majority of the coins. Yeah, that's not hierarchy at all. What to do? That's life.

if you prefer that , go ahead and slap a slave sticker on your back and wander the streets begging a rich person to be your master.
That's complex.

tangentc is just jealous that some people work and put effort in and get rewarded for those efforts, and he just cant cope with not getting paid for doing nothing
And is that why he supports PoS?  Tongue

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TangentC
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December 22, 2021, 02:44:14 AM
Last edit: December 22, 2021, 03:22:05 AM by TangentC
 #106

i think i get it

tangentc is just jealous that some people work and put effort in and get rewarded for those efforts, and he just cant cope with not getting paid for doing nothing, so wants to fight and argue that bitcoin should change and reward leachers that dont offer anything to bitcoins security.

what he does not realise is in proof of stake, there is still only a set number of blocks made a day and only a set amount of reward per block. if a PoS coin actually became useful to a wide userbase, where the coin attained value. those 'stakes' no longer allow everyone to get paid.
(too many people fighting over limited slices of pie)

instead only a few hundred 'stakes' out of millions would get paid a day.
where those few hundred 'stakes' would be the ones with the highest value(rich/elite) stake in play.

but hey, tangentc does not care about value. nor security which would cost an attacker billions to fight to break the security. all he cares about is trying to get his hands on some free pie, no matter the consequence

No Franky, you don't get it at all.

Your lack of research on the capabilities of Proof of Stake is showing.
1.  Proof of Stake coins transaction fees can be burned, thus as coin transactions increase, this will act as a way to lower the total # of coins.

* Note another one of PoW failings, is the day when no new PoW coins are created , transaction fees of PoW coins have to skyrocket to offset the lost rewards*
Just another reason why PoS is superior to PoW in the long run.

If you have not been an early adopter of Proof of Waste bitcoin, do you really think, you be pushing a product that wastes more energy than a country with no increase in performance or security. I include security, because the same 4 mining pool operators (Bitcoin weakest link) are all that is stopping a 51% attack no matter what bitcoin energy waste.
I think you be more honest that that, if you did not personally have a large financial skin in the game on the PoW bitcoin side.  Wink




I know people, more or less rich than I am who don't have money to stake the required amount and the yield return isn't that profitable at all.
They mine bitcoin.
By the same reasoning, everyone can participate in mining too.

if you prefer that , go ahead and slap a slave sticker on your back and wander the streets begging a rich person to be your master.
That's complex.

 Cheesy  
Tell all of the people too poor to own an ASIC warehouse, how they can make a profit mining bitcoin, and go into compete details so they can get as rich as Franky1.
Go ahead show them how many coins they can mine, but you might want to mention that the odds are they will lose money mining instead of earn, but dazzle away and create a new upper class elite, with the supposed mining btc and get rich shenanigans.  
* Not holding my breath. *

Not complex , accurate , you want rich elites to earn the rewards and the transaction fees and determine what transactions are included in the blockchain with no input from you whatsoever, sounds like a slave to me.





The current Proof of Waste system is doomed to failure, as no country can handle a continued geometric increase in energy waste on a biyearly basis.
So all countries will eventually ban bitcoin PoW mining,
and what happens next.....
Then finally BTC lack of development team, claims to have found a solution to the Proof of Waste Dilemma.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/microsoft-patent-application-crypto-mining-brain-waves
Quote
"Instead of massive computation work required by some conventional cryptocurrency systems, data generated based on the body activity of the user can be a proof-of-work, and therefore, a user can solve the computationally difficult problem unconsciously."

And that boys and girls is their plan to enslave your children's children for the next 10000 years.

Proof of Stake is the only shield against it.
Make your Choice , Freedom or Slavery, because the time of choice is almost here.  Cool

Updated Future Defs:
PoW = Prisoners of Work
PoS = People of Sovereignty
BlackHatCoiner
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December 22, 2021, 03:21:25 PM
 #107

* Note another one of PoW failings, is the day when no new PoW coins are created , transaction fees of PoW coins have to skyrocket to offset the lost rewards*
This has nothing to do with the mechanism, but with the monetary policy. Take, for instance, Monero. It will have a steady inflation after a while.

I include security, because the same 4 mining pool operators (Bitcoin weakest link) are all that is stopping a 51% attack no matter what bitcoin energy waste.
Less than 1% of ADA holders own the majority of the coins.
Less than 1% of ADA holders own the majority of the coins.
Less than 1% of ADA holders own the majority of the coins.

How many times do I have to say this? Why don't you respond to it? Besides, I repeat:  The mining pools don't own the hash rate, it's the miners. The miners mine the block header, they're responsible for not allowing the pool to accomplish a 51% attack.

If you have not been an early adopter of Proof of Waste bitcoin, do you really think, you be pushing a product that wastes more energy than a country with no increase in performance or security
It increases in security. The performance shouldn't change.

if you did not personally have a large financial skin in the game on the PoW bitcoin side
Vice versa: Can't it be your pocket talking about PoS? Supposedly, we speak objectively for each side.

Not complex , accurate
No, it wasn't accurate. It was pure irony and revealed a little bit of hate against bitcoiners.

you want rich elites to earn the rewards and the transaction fees and determine what transactions are included in the blockchain with no input from you whatsoever, sounds like a slave to me.
You keep speaking for PoW, but haven't mention the downsides of your mechanism. Again, why can't this happen in PoS? Why aren't there elites?

Updated Future Defs:
PoW = Prisoners of Work
PoS = People of Sovereignty
Cute.

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franky1
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December 22, 2021, 03:45:10 PM
 #108

No Franky, you don't get it at all.

Your lack of research on the capabilities of Proof of Stake is showing.
1.  Proof of Stake coins transaction fees can be burned, thus as coin transactions increase, this will act as a way to lower the total # of coins.

just because i talk generally about what most crap coins do. and you hav in mind your favourite crap coin that does something else but without realising im not psychic to know which crap coin you are favouring this week. does not mean i have not done my research. it just means i am not talking about your specific crap coin you have secretly in mind.

the transaction fee "burn" of your crapcoin is not a loss to miners. its a loss to people making transactions (normal users)
those staking coins to mine dont lose anything. its like a reserve. they vault their coin. sign a block, if they get to be the main signer they get the fresh mint coin, and even more then that they can take their stake out and keep that too.
generally speaking. though some crap coins dont just burn, but give the tx fees of all users to the miner that one as a bonus ontop of reward.

by having a PoS that burns users coins when they transact. the miner is getting minted coin. keeps his stake safe and now the network has less coin for users, making that miners coin more valued due to scarcity. without any cost to the miner.

so i can see why you love the idea of free money mining.. i see why you want effortless/workless/ lazy mining too.

but here is the thing. if a crap coin was to become popular. there would be less slices of the reward pie to share between miners. as there are only so many blocks and so many rewards to share between. so if a really popular crap coin had 1million miners, but was only making 200 blocks a day of 10 coins a block.. then 1million miners wont be elegantly split a daily slice of 0.002 each, instead the addresses with the most hoard will get most blocks meaning there will be some getting 10coins a block for multiple blocks. and hundreds of thousands of people getting nothing.

this then leads to those hundreds of thousands trying to pool their funds into an exchange wallet cold store and hope when the exchange wins a block due to large cold store hoard, the exchange will split the reward equally.

well i have not seen many, if any exchanges paying 'dividends', 'interest', rewards to its users just for letting an exchange hold their coin.. well not unless they are actually a ponzi..
so just dont expect to get free coin if your crap coin you favour was to become popular.
you are still going to end up with the same elitist problem you think bitcoin suffers from

and also, bad security, centralising funds. and crap value based on 100% speculation and not any real underlying cost

sorry but bitcoin has real value due to real cost. you know real work. real effort. and better security.
its alot easier to perform a chain re-org on a PoS coin than on bitcoin. the only reason you dont see it happen much on crap coins. is that they are crap and its just not even worth it.
thats PoS coins only advantage. staying so crap that no one wants to bother playing or messing with it

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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December 22, 2021, 06:02:11 PM
 #109

I can see the btc cultism is too thick for any reality to sink in.

So I shall leave you , to circle jerk yourselves in the pretense that useless geometrically growing energy waste is sustainable and anything not of your cult is crap.


 Cheesy


FYI:
Just like your energy wasting bitcoin, your clueless btc cult wastes too much of another valuable resource my time.
So as the countries ban bitcoin, I shall now ban you from wasting my time with your cult drivel.

Good Day.
 Cool
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December 22, 2021, 06:49:56 PM
 #110

ok well you go ride your manual bicycle from the 1800's and avoid any fuel/electric means of transport.

if you want to fear businesses that pay for electric to allow utility companies to upgrade power plants, you go stay away from anything electrical. work by candlelight instead.

you do realise when electricity is produced. its supposed to be used. if its not used. then it is a waste. electricity is not supposed to be produced and then put into a box and stored in a trophy cupboard.

i bet your the guy that hates the idea of electric cars. wasting electric just to get people to between work and home.
you sound like the kind of guy that wants free social security money for staying at home doing nothing.

..
maybe you simply think that bitcoin is not efficient because your still stuck in the mindset of CPU mining and thinking that bitcoin is mined using CPU's where the quadrillions of hashes is from quadrillion inefficient 2012 CPU's. not realising its only 1.6million ASIC's which each use the same power as a normal house.

so while having the wrong impression that bitcoin mining is competing against 1.3 billion population of china's need for electric. its actually more like 0.2% of that same population, thus not really even on the same demand scale as what chinese people use in their daily lives.

but hey. when all chinese(1.3billion) all have 2 electric cars per household. maybe that should be the time you book yourself into a mental health ward before you stroke out in a panic attack. or worse, have a mental breakdown at home, and when rescued by emergency services they see your a hoarder, where your house is full of batteries, and your sat in the corner muttering "must save electric, must store it, must keep it, dont take my electric hoard"

meanwhile. the rest of us will get on with our lives and use electricity. and pay for it to allow power plants to get upgraded.. as thats its purpose. to use electricity.

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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December 23, 2021, 08:34:35 AM
 #111

ok well you go ride your manual bicycle from the 1800's and avoid any fuel/electric means of transport.
LOL!

So I shall leave you
Good riddance to bad luggage. I guess my valid arguments shut your mouth? Anyway, please don't come back after a month or two, 'cause you trolls like doing this once in a while. If you want to leave this toxic-cult-looking place make it official, don't return as a know-it-all deliverer who refuses to constructively counterargue.

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.HUGE.
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December 23, 2021, 11:31:55 AM
 #112

The same narrative repeated again. “Bitcoin POW is wasteful”, but in fact, POW the most ground-breaking part of the protocol. Cypherpunks before Bitcoin have tried to develop a censorship-resistant, decentralized currency. All failed because they lacked one elementary component = POW.

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