Does DT abuse exists?

[naim027]

Hey Guys! I always love to dig stats. Today I was Digging some info on Loyce.club and Bpip.Org and I found something interesting. @Loyce already created a similar thread about another user before. But, This is a bit different. Do you guys think DT Abuse exists? What if a DT-1 and DT-2 Member Include someone on their Default Trustlist who actually never left any feedback to anyone? My question is, You are a DT-1 or a DT-2 Member, How can you include someone on your trust list while that user never left feedback to anyone? How do you Trust that user's Judgment if he never left feedbacks to anyone? I guess the only exception can be with your alts. That means you trust your alts and yourself. I guess there is no issue.

I am talking about users: Nikisa, (Trust: neutral) (216 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
Who actually never left feedback to anyone. And this account is DT-2 just because there is a bunch of people Including DT-1 And DT-2 who added this account as a DefaultTrust.

Nikisa's judgment is Trusted by:

1. Ak_sakal (Trust: neutral) (14 Merit earned (Trust list) (BPIP)
2. madnessteat (Trust: +5 / =1 / -0) (DT1! (5) 1391 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
3. AlphaOM (Trust: neutral) (0 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
4. VyachikO (Trust: neutral) (62 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
5. DabLjat (Trust: neutral) (70 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
6. G.Butryk Banned! (Trust: neutral) (0 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
7. zasad@ (Trust: +3 / =2 / -0) (2781 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)

4 of Them are Inactive, 1 of them Banned, 2 of them are DT Members.

Another Possibility can be Judging from Flag Support/opposition. Is it enough to add someone one your DefaultTrust List? If so, This thread is waste of time.
Leave your feedback. If I feel I am wrong, I will lock the thread. Thanks.

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[Lafu]

How can you include someone on your trust list while that user never left feedback to anyone?

The trust list have nothing to do with the Feedback , this is the most issue most Users think !
You can trust somebody even you dont have given a feedback to them and the same is it with a feedback you give to Users.
You dont have to trust the User when you give them a Positive / Neutral / Negative Feedback also.
It all depends how you make your one personal trust list .

A good guide you can find here : LoyceV's Beginners guide to correct use of the Trust system

But to answer your question yes there are a few that tried / trying to abuse the DT !

[naim027]

The trust list have nothing to do with the Feedback , this is the most issue most Users think !
You can trust somebody even you dont have given a feedback to them and the same is it with a feedback you give to Users.
You dont have to trust the User when you give them a Positive / Neutral / Negative Feedback also.
It all depends how you make your one personal trust list .

A good guide you can find here : LoyceV's Beginners guide to correct use of the Trust system

But to answer your question yes there are a few that tried / trying to abuse the DT !

Here we go, I understand that I dont have to trust the User when I give them Positive / Neutral / Negative Feedback. I also understand that I can trust somebody even I don't have given feedback to them. But, According to LoyecV,

Trust list: a list of people who's judgement on others you trust (username) or don't trust (~username).

I can make a list of people whose judgment on others I trust. Right? What if I add somebody who never judges someone? If that user never judged anyone? How you will trust his judgment? In this forum, I can trust your judgment in a few different ways,

• Checking Your Flag Supports,
• Your Judgment on Others
• Based on Your TrustWorthy Post.

I don't know if I am wrong. Could you please tell me how/or based on what you will judge my judgment to others? If I never judged anyone before?

[suchmoon]

Do you guys think DT Abuse exists? What if a DT-1 and DT-2 Member Include someone on their Default Trustlist who actually never left any feedback to anyone? My question is, You are a DT-1 or a DT-2 Member, How can you include someone on your trust list while that user never left feedback to anyone? How do you Trust that user's Judgment if he never left feedbacks to anyone?

If the person hasn't left any feedback then there isn't any abuse, is there?

As for trusting one's judgement... people post and express their opinions, including on topics related to trust, trading, etc. I have in the past included users whose judgement on these matters was sound even though they haven't left many or any trust ratings, and encouraged them to participate in the trust system. I don't recall any issues with that so I'm sure it can work out just fine. One can be quickly unincluded or excluded if problems arise. A much bigger issue is "legacy" DT members who sometimes go off the rails but tend to remain in DT because they have accumulated a lot of inclusions, and other users are reluctant to act against them because of possible retaliation or whatever. But that's a whole other topic.

[Upgrade00]

How do you Trust that user's Judgment if he never left feedbacks to anyone? I guess the only exception can be with your alts. That means you trust your alts and yourself. I guess there is no issue.

This is actually more of an issue than the one the actual topic is pointing out. Trusting yourself or meriting yourself through alts is abuse as you are appraising yourself and giving yourself some sort of reward where there is a strong motive for bias. Why would you even need to announce that you trust your own judgement?

Another Possibility can be Judging from Flag Support/opposition. Is it enough to add someone one your DefaultTrust List? If so, This thread is waste of time.

This is one way to assess a user's judgement, but I would not use it alone as many would just follow the mob and support or oppose whichever side the majority is on.

[naim027]

How do you Trust that user's Judgment if he never left feedbacks to anyone? I guess the only exception can be with your alts. That means you trust your alts and yourself. I guess there is no issue.

This is actually more of an issue than the one the actual topic is pointing out. Trusting yourself or meriting yourself through alts is abuse as you are appraising yourself and giving yourself some sort of reward where there is a strong motive for bias. Why would you even need to announce that you trust your own judgement?

According to LoyceV, You you can add your alts to your DefaultTrust list. But, Don't add your main account on Default Trust list from your alt account.

It's okay to include your alt-account on your own Trust list. This means you trust the feedback you left from that account. Example:

hilariousandco Trusts these users' judgement:
7. hilariousetc (Trust: +3 / =1 / -0) (1725 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)

About merit: It is a abuse. I never mentioned anything about merit in this topic.

[Upgrade00]

According to LoyceV, You you can add your alts to your DefaultTrust list. But, Don't add your main account on Default Trust list from your alt account.

Thinking of it that way, I guess it could have its merits, especially if you visit the forum from different accounts regularly and may not want to log into your main account anytime you wish to leave a feedback, in that case, trusting your alt isn't such a bad idea, but I feel this should be done for known alts of that user for it to remain ethical.

[naim027]

Do you guys think DT Abuse exists? What if a DT-1 and DT-2 Member Include someone on their Default Trustlist who never left any feedback to anyone? My question is, You are a DT-1 or a DT-2 Member, How can you include someone on your trust list while that user never left feedback to anyone? How do you Trust that user's Judgment if he never left feedbacks to anyone?

If the person hasn't left any feedback then there isn't any abuse, is there?

Let me quote LoyceV again,

You should add users who left accurate feedback and have good Trust lists to your Trust list, and you should exclude users who leave inaccurate feedback.
This means your Trust list should be based on how you value the users' judgment on others

So, If that users don't leave any feedback to others or never judge others? How you will trust his judgment?

According to LoyceV, You you can add your alts to your DefaultTrust list. But, Don't add your main account on the Default Trust list from your alt account.

Thinking of it that way, I guess it could have its merits, especially if you visit the forum from different accounts regularly and may not want to log into your main account anytime you wish to leave feedback, in that case, trusting your alt isn't such a bad idea, but I feel this should be done for known alts of that user for it to remain ethical.

I think so, Most of the Reputed members left neutral feedback on their alt account so that everyone is informed about this.

[nakamura12]

According to LoyceV, You you can add your alts to your DefaultTrust list. But, Don't add your main account on Default Trust list from your alt account.

Thinking of it that way, I guess it could have its merits, especially if you visit the forum from different accounts regularly and may not want to log into your main account anytime you wish to leave a feedback, in that case, trusting your alt isn't such a bad idea, but I feel this should be done for known alts of that user for it to remain ethical.

I considered it as an abuse if the alt account is not known to this forum. We can see it as an other account but the truth is we don't know that it is an alt or not. I think it could also mean that those who trust back is some sort of forcing your account to become a DT compared to being trusted from other forum user without force or conditions.

[philipma1957]

The trust list have nothing to do with the Feedback , this is the most issue most Users think !
You can trust somebody even you dont have given a feedback to them and the same is it with a feedback you give to Users.
You dont have to trust the User when you give them a Positive / Neutral / Negative Feedback also.
It all depends how you make your one personal trust list .

A good guide you can find here : LoyceV's Beginners guide to correct use of the Trust system

But to answer your question yes there are a few that tried / trying to abuse the DT !

Here we go, I understand that I dont have to trust the User when I give them Positive / Neutral / Negative Feedback. I also understand that I can trust somebody even I don't have given feedback to them. But, According to LoyecV,

Trust list: a list of people who's judgement on others you trust (username) or don't trust (~username).

I can make a list of people whose judgment on others I trust. Right? What if I add somebody who never judges someone? If that user never judged anyone? How you will trust his judgment? In this forum, I can trust your judgment in a few different ways,

• Checking Your Flag Supports,
• Your Judgment on Others
• Based on Your TrustWorthy Post.

I don't know if I am wrong. Could you please tell me how/or based on what you will judge my judgment to others? If I never judged anyone before?

Buysolar is on my trust list.

He lives about 1 - 2 miles from me.
I know his family he knows my family.
We are partners in mining ⛏.

He almost has zero to do with this website but he will stay on my trust list due to the reasons above.

DaveF is someone I met in person multiple times He lives near my wife’s cousins in A different state.

He can be trusted.

do I really care if they are vibrant leaders on bitcointalk nope. But they are still trustable.

Is my trust list perfect most likely not.

But you asked about how does some one trust someone else on bitcointalk even if the person does not seem to be qualifed my trusting of buysolar on the surface would look weird its not.

Don’t sweat 😓 a lot of small things. Now if you know terrible shit about some one here and you see dt1 trusting them maybe you can mention something.

But if someone asks me about buysolar I basically tell them he will always be on my trust list.  Assuming we stay in our partnership and things work the way have been.

So some you may wonder about may know a ton about the guy they are listing on the trust list.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

My question is, You are a DT-1 or a DT-2 Member, How can you include someone on your trust list while that user never left feedback to anyone? How do you Trust that user's Judgment if he never left feedbacks to anyone?

Oh, there are lots of ways--but to the best of my knowledge the trust list inclusions/exclusions are supposed to be done based on how accurate a member's feedback is.  

Does that mean everyone is going to follow that unwritten rule?  Nope, not at all, and there aren't any consequences I know of if someone chooses not to unless they somehow abuse their DT power and start including shady members or excluding ones based on vendettas or what have you.

Yours is a good question, OP, but the trust system here has a lot of grey areas and is about as imperfect as it gets.  The reality is that DT members can and do include or exclude others based on reasons that have nothing to do with any feedback that was given--philipma1957 is a perfect example of that.  My take on it is that as long as it doesn't create havoc on the forum, let it be.

[Findingnemo]

I won't say this is an abuse because any user can add or remove people from their trust list which is not moderated by the admin, if someone gets into DT1 then they should be very careful about the people who they added into their trust list because if someone has potential to abuse it can use it in the wrong way but surely if someone does that then surely it will be under the radar of other members and they will be removed from the list so just let it be and we can't decide what people should do when they have all the rights to do.

[philipma1957]

My question is, You are a DT-1 or a DT-2 Member, How can you include someone on your trust list while that user never left feedback to anyone? How do you Trust that user's Judgment if he never left feedbacks to anyone?

Oh, there are lots of ways--but to the best of my knowledge the trust list inclusions/exclusions are supposed to be done based on how accurate a member's feedback is.  

Does that mean everyone is going to follow that unwritten rule?  Nope, not at all, and there aren't any consequences I know of if someone chooses not to unless they somehow abuse their DT power and start including shady members or excluding ones based on vendettas or what have you.

Yours is a good question, OP, but the trust system here has a lot of grey areas and is about as imperfect as it gets.  The reality is that DT members can and do include or exclude others based on reasons that have nothing to do with any feedback that was given--philipma1957 is a perfect example of that.  My take on it is that as long as it doesn't create havoc on the forum, let it be.

Well I trust buysolar for $$$ and whether it is off the forum or on the forum he is a guy that doe the right thing.

Years ago trust was based more on the idea you would be able to do good buys and sales with a person.  Over the years it has now drifted into a far more gray area.

I know six or seven people on bitcointalk personally. If I think I can trust them I list them in my trust list.

Most likely I will need to review the list again I like to do that every once in a while.

[The Cryptovator]

I am not getting what is the relationship with abuse and includes a person in the trust without left feedback. I think you need a dip search DT network. You can vote for someone to become DT1. Do you know how to vote for DT1 Members? The only and one way is to add them to your trust list. If I want to see someone in DT1 then I have to add them to my trust list, whether he has left feedback or not, who knows he will not leave and the future. In case of abuse just need a sec to remove it from the trust list, it's not a big deal.

[lovesmayfamilis]

Some kind of ghost chasing. Why shouldn't I include or exclude a person on my trust list? Based on your conclusions, it turns out that if I do not trust someone and put a tilde in my trust list, does this mean that I need to leave a negative tag?
If I trust someone and include him in my list, it means that I trust his judgment. This is exactly what I need. But I am not obligated to leave reviews. It's enough for me to see what this person writes, in the same way, seeing such questions, you can draw conclusions about a person, and put him on your list of distrust with a tilde. And again, this will only be my right and opinion.

And in general, read finally and understand the difference between flags, trust list and reviews.

[naim027]

Oh, there are lots of ways--but to the best of my knowledge, the trust list inclusions/exclusions are supposed to be done based on how accurate a member's feedback is.  

Does that mean everyone is going to follow that unwritten rule?  Nope, not at all, and there aren't any consequences I know of if someone chooses not to unless they somehow abuse their DT power and start including shady members or excluding ones based on vendettas or what have you.

Yours is a good question, OP, but the trust system here has a lot of grey areas and is about as imperfect as it gets.  The reality is that DT members can and do include or exclude others based on reasons that have nothing to do with any feedback that was given--philipma1957 is a perfect example of that.  My take on it is that as long as it doesn't create havoc on the forum, let it be.

I think You got my point. I would like to answer you and Philipma1957 at once, Check below.

Buysolar is on my trust list.

He lives about 1 - 2 miles from me.
I know his family he knows my family.
We are partners in mining ⛏.

Allow me to interrupt you here. As Far I understand from the guide, You cannot add someone on DT if you trust him with Money. Since you trust him based on his commitment and somehow you may have a chance to lose your money but he kept his promise, It doesn't mean that "you believe him with money" And "you will also trust his judgment". You can simply leave Positive feedback to his profile if you trust him with money.

You should add users who left accurate feedback and have good Trust lists to your Trust list, and you should exclude users who leave inaccurate feedback. This means your Trust list should be based on how you value the users' judgment on others, and it should not be based on whether or not you Trust those users (with money) or traded with them.

• Don't add someone to your Trust list because you had a trade with them. Even if you trust them with money, that doesn't mean you should trust their judgement on others. I think this is the most common mistake made on Trust lists!

But, If you Trust his judgment also, You can add him.
I am not accusing anything, No offense, Just my opinion. I don't have rights over your judgment.

I am not getting what is the relationship with abuse and includes a person in the trust without left feedback. I think you need a dip search DT network. You can vote for someone to become DT1. Do you know how to vote for DT1 Members? The only and one way is to add them to your trust list. If I want to see someone in DT1 then I have to add them to my trust list, whether he has left feedback or not, who knows he will not leave and the future. In case of abuse just need a sec to remove it from the trust list, it's not a big deal.

Some kind of ghost chasing. Why shouldn't I include or exclude a person on my trust list? Based on your conclusions, it turns out that if I do not trust someone and put a tilde in my trust list, does this mean that I need to leave a negative tag?
If I trust someone and include him in my list, it means that I trust his judgment. This is exactly what I need. But I am not obligated to leave reviews. It's enough for me to see what this person writes, in the same way, seeing such questions, you can draw conclusions about a person, and put him on your list of distrust with a tilde. And again, this will only be my right and opinion.

And in general, read finally and understand the difference between flags, trust list and reviews.

You guys Didn't get my point. Forget everything and Just Answer these two questions from your own point of view.

My question is, You are a DT-1 or a DT-2 Member, How can you include someone on your trust list while that user never left feedback to anyone? How do you Trust that user's Judgment if he never left feedbacks to anyone?

[LoyceV]

I was asked to respond here (and mentioned a few times).

Do you guys think DT Abuse exists?

Yes, it happens.

What if a DT-1 and DT-2 Member Include someone on their Default Trustlist who actually never left any feedback to anyone?

I clarified your question by striking out a word.
To answer it: this happens too. I'm not a big fan of it, as it doesn't help the Trust system. But it also doesn't really do damage, so it doesn't matter much.

My question is, You are a DT-1 or a DT-2 Member, How can you include someone on your trust list while that user never left feedback to anyone? How do you Trust that user's Judgment if he never left feedbacks to anyone?

Everyone has their own interpretation of the Trust system. And if everyone follows their own interpretation, it works out to a nice "average" of opinions on DT.

Nikisa
~
Nikita's judgment is Trusted by:

Nikita isn't the same as Nikisa. Mistakes like this are what get users like DarkStar included all the time

this account is DT-2 just because there is a bunch of people Including DT-1 And DT-2 who added this account as a DefaultTrust.

Technically, only the DT1-inclusion matters for Nikisa's DT2-status.

Another Possibility can be Judging from Flag Support/opposition. Is it enough to add someone one your DefaultTrust List? If so, This thread is waste of time.

It's really up to you, but for Flags, even the opposite might work: exclude users who use Flags incorrectly instead of including users who do it right. Flag rules are quite strict.

Could you please tell me how/or based on what you will judge my judgment to others?

I can answer this: You have left negative feedback to 10 users, 4 of them for ban evasion. I don't think that's a valid reason: if you can prove it, report them to get banned. Then there are a few bounty cheating Newbies, I don't really care about those. If the forum allows them to spam the forum, Twitter allows them to spam Twitter and Facebook allows them to spam Facebook, I think it's a waste of time to tag them. They'll just create a new account, tagging them doesn't make the forum a better place. Even worse: there are so many of those, that it makes negative feedback a "standard" thing to see, which means it loses it's meaning, which benefits the real scammers.
The other 2 negatives and 1 positive seem okay at first glance.

Buysolar is on my trust list.

He lives about 1 - 2 miles from me.
I know his family he knows my family.
We are partners in mining ⛏.

He almost has zero to do with this website but he will stay on my trust list due to the reasons above.

This is an interesting example. If you know and trust someone, I'd say that deserves positive feedback (which you left already). But the feedback he left isn't so great: there are no reference links, and he left positive feedback for amazon4u after using escrow. Come to think of it: you also left positive feedback to the same user for using you as an escrow, and I don't think that's right. Update: I didn't realize this feedback is 6.5 years old, so my comment based on the current Trust system doesn't really apply.
This is how the forum describes positive feedback:

Code:

Positive - You think that this person is unlikely to scam anyone.

By using an escrow, he had no chance to scam you (or buysolar), so that trade doesn't deserve positive feedback. After all, if he's "unlikely to scam anyone", escrow wasn't needed.
Positive feedback might make someone else think he's "unlikely to scam anyone", while it hasn't been tested yet in a transaction. I'd say neutral feedback would have been more accurate in this case.

Well I trust buysolar for $$$ and whether it is off the forum or on the forum he is a guy that doe the right thing.
~
I know six or seven people on bitcointalk personally. If I think I can trust them I list them in my trust list.

This sums up my take on this:

• Did you do a trade in which you risked funds? Leave feedback!
• Did you see users who left accurate Trust feedback on many accounts? Add them to your Trust list!

[naim027]

~

~

I think I understand after both of your clarifications. Thanks for the clarification. Still, I think the Trust System should not work like this (In my opinion).
In my personal opinion, I think if you had a deal with anyone and you had a chance to lose your money but the guy kept his promises. You can leave Positive feedback on his account. It will help people to know about his transaction-related fairness. On the other hand, If you Trust Someone's Judgment on others (Specifically in the forum). You can add him to your Trustlist. There are two different systems and each system should have its purposes. If both systems work similarly, There is no need to implement two different systems to judge people. Still, this is my personal opinion.

Do you guys think it's time to lock this thread or let it open for further discussion if anyone finds it interesting?

[philipma1957]

~

~

I think I understand after both of your clarifications. Thanks for the clarification. Still, I think the Trust System should not work like this (In my opinion).
In my personal opinion, I think if you had a deal with anyone and you had a chance to lose your money but the guy kept his promises. You can leave Positive feedback on his account. It will help people to know about his transaction-related fairness. On the other hand, If you Trust Someone's Judgment on others (Specifically in the forum). You can add him to your Trustlist. There are two different systems and each system should have its purposes. If both systems work similarly, There is no need to implement two different systems to judge people. Still, this is my personal opinion.

Do you guys think it's time to lock this thread or let it open for further discussion if anyone finds it interesting?

Well it shifted a lot. Merits were created. Trusting and marking a person for trust has altered greatly.

Flags were created the rating systems are fairly complex.

Back in the day we had pos, neg, neutral no flags no merits.

Trust was really abused. Retaliation trust was big.

Plus fights and arguments caused lots of trust abuse.

Of course now if I give a new seller a merit I have to watch that people do not think I am trusting them and it is safe t9 buy from them.

I some times merit sellers if they are newbies that work at a company I know simply to aid them in trying to sell.
But I am not trusting them or giving them a feed back that says they are a good seller.

The old way was simpler in the case of that example.